Judgement, Rapture and the Wesleyan View

[honeylight]

I have been trying to find some good books on the Wesleyan/Nazarene view of the Rapture. Recently I've heard that the view of the Rapture is a Calvinistic concept & that there isn't much scriptural basis for the idea. Most books at the store are by Calvinist authors from Calvinist colleges. I guess the Rapture helps out with the "once saved" thing.;)

Yes, this may belong in eschatology, but I don't want EVERYONE's view, I want a Wesleyan side. Our Nazarene Manual mentions the Second Coming & the Judgment, but not the Rapture.

[Dark_Lite]

Doesn't mention it because there isn't any such thing as a "rapture."

[anthropologistfrommarsmom]

I personally believe in the rapture. What a comforting belief for me to have in our "apocalypse now" world.

[Rebirth In Flames]

I’m a member of the Salvation Army, which is a 95% Wesleyan view point on scripture. Having said that, we don’t really hint upon the “rapture” because it isn’t mentioned in the bible. Of course the Left Behind series has every Christian thinking of this supposed “rapture” that the book delves into, but there is not any firm foundation of scripture that really tells us about this mythical/speculative occurrence. It’s not a word found anywhere in the bible, but rather made from man’s own imagination; sadly some think it’s biblical when it’s not.



So bottom line, I don’t believe it because it’s nowhere to be found in the bible. But for arguments sake let’s say that it is real; God didn’t put it in the bible so it must not really be something that we need to think about or study on. So even if it is real, it’s irrelevant or it would have been mentioned in the Word of God.



Hope that helped you. (=

[Reborn_in_Christ2003]

I personally believe in the rapture and so do alot of Nazarenes I know.

[WesleyJohn]

.

[Texas Lynn]

The concept of the rapture originated in the 19th century along with fundamentalism as a response to modernity.

The Book of Revelation is a symbolic castigation of the Roman Empire. The "Beast" is the Emperor Nero, who persecuted Christians. It does not refer to something yet to come.

[kayanne]

Doesn't mention it because there isn't any such thing as a "rapture."i guess i thought of it like the "trinity," in that the word itself isn't in the Bible, but the concept is.
isn't what people call the "rapture" what is being described in I Thes 4:15-17

"for this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of GOd; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the aire, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

btw, darklite, i'm not trying to be argumentative. i'm no expert on endtimes whatsoever! i just wondered what you think these verses refer to.
thanks. kayanne

[anthropologistfrommarsmom]

Texas Lynn, Are you referring to the Texas Monthly article this Month on dallas being the birthplace for fundementalist thought? I hated that article. It compared Radical Islam with Christian Fundementalism. Yeah, What a crock. We only say you go to hell if you don't believe in Christ, they say we are going to killl you before you have a chance to make up your mind. Mu husband explains away "The beast" the same way. He also says it is Nero. I still believe there is an anti-christ and he is coming. Whether or not you believe in the rapture doesn't seem as important to me as whether people have their spirtual lives ready. In other words, are people ready, have they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior? Are they actively sinning or have they truly turned their lives over to god?

[anthropologistfrommarsmom]

I didn't mean to sound so self-righteous in that post. I meant that I should have my spiritual life in check as well, and that is most important.

[wvmtnkid]

This is a neat coincidence. Not to long ago, I was looking around on www.umc.org (http://www.umc.org), the official website of the United Methodist Church, and I came across this. This wasn't was I was looking for, but at the time, I thought it was interesting. Your post brought it to mind, and I just thought I would share it.


Where does the "Rapture" fit into the United Methodist realm of beliefs?
Methodism has a lot of diverse viewpoints among its churches and members, and so I have no doubts that many pastors and churches are tuning in to this speculative phenomenon. However, it is not central to our approach to discipleship and our theological framework.

Wesley and his spiritual children are not into the future in the kind of rapture/left behind approach. He and we are into the present--living in love toward God and neighbor. Our doctrine focuses on the order of salvation--prevenient grace, justifying grace, sanctifying grace and the assurance of salvation that God gives in trust.

See our Our Doctrinal Standards and General Rules (http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1648) in the Book of Discipline. Go on line and read the sermons of John Wesley (http://www.umc.org/frames.asp?url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/). Read especially Wesley's sermon on the Great Assize (http://www.umc.org/frames.asp?url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-015.stm). This will get you as close as Wesley gets to this type of thinking. But notice that almost all of his sermons have to do with how we live our lives now and how we accept the gift of salvation and live accountably for the grace we have received.

Rev. Dan Benedict
Director of Worship Resources
General Board of Discipleship

[Dark_Lite]

i guess i thought of it like the "trinity," in that the word itself isn't in the Bible, but the concept is.
isn't what people call the "rapture" what is being described in I Thes 4:15-17

"for this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of GOd; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the aire, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

btw, darklite, i'm not trying to be argumentative. i'm no expert on endtimes whatsoever! i just wondered what you think these verses refer to.
thanks. kayanne
It's talking about the second coming, not Jesus' secret commando raid on the world to pick up a bunch of believers. The Rapture was never even existant until some random guy in the 1800's thought up a skewed interpretation of a few certain verses.

[WesleyJohn]

.

[Texas Lynn]

Texas Lynn, Are you referring to the Texas Monthly article this Month on dallas being the birthplace for fundementalist thought? I hated that article.
I didn't see the article.

It compared Radical Islam with Christian Fundementalism.
So have others, including The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong. The philosophical bases are the same, as is Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, save the parent religion from which they sprung.

We only say you go to hell if you don't believe in Christ, they say we are going to killl you before you have a chance to make up your mind.
Actually the Christian Right think tanks, most notably R. J. Rushdoony's Counsel of Chalcedon, advocate murder of opposing forces.

Mu husband explains away "The beast" the same way. He also says it is Nero.
Sounds like you married a smart fellow there.

I still believe there is an anti-christ and he is coming.
And many Christians don't.

Whether or not you believe in the rapture doesn't seem as important to me as whether people have their spirtual lives ready. In other words, are people ready, have they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior? Are they actively sinning or have they truly turned their lives over to god?
No disagreement here.

[Texas Lynn]

I didn't mean to sound so self-righteous in that post. I meant that I should have my spiritual life in check as well, and that is most important.
No offense was taken by me.

[Texas Lynn]

This is a neat coincidence. Not to long ago, I was looking around on www.umc.org (http://www.umc.org/), the official website of the United Methodist Church, and I came across this. This wasn't was I was looking for, but at the time, I thought it was interesting. Your post brought it to mind, and I just thought I would share it.


Where does the "Rapture" fit into the United Methodist realm of beliefs?
Methodism has a lot of diverse viewpoints among its churches and members, and so I have no doubts that many pastors and churches are tuning in to this speculative phenomenon. However, it is not central to our approach to discipleship and our theological framework.

Wesley and his spiritual children are not into the future in the kind of rapture/left behind approach. He and we are into the present--living in love toward God and neighbor. Our doctrine focuses on the order of salvation--prevenient grace, justifying grace, sanctifying grace and the assurance of salvation that God gives in trust.

See our Our Doctrinal Standards and General Rules (http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1648) in the Book of Discipline. Go on line and read the sermons of John Wesley (http://www.umc.org/frames.asp?url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/). Read especially Wesley's sermon on the Great Assize (http://www.umc.org/frames.asp?url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-015.stm). This will get you as close as Wesley gets to this type of thinking. But notice that almost all of his sermons have to do with how we live our lives now and how we accept the gift of salvation and live accountably for the grace we have received.

Rev. Dan Benedict
Director of Worship Resources
General Board of Discipleship
Great post, thank you.

[Texas Lynn]

It's talking about the second coming, not Jesus' secret commando raid on the world to pick up a bunch of believers. The Rapture was never even existant until some random guy in the 1800's thought up a skewed interpretation of a few certain verses.
Excellent, thank you.

[kayanne]

i appreciate everyone's thoughts and posts here, because i honestly haven't spent much time studying this topic. i figure i just need to be ready to meet the Lord whenever and wherever and however that may be!

but no one has yet really addressed what the Bible is possibly referring to in the passage from I Thes 4:15-17 that i quoted earlier. what is it about, the "dead in Christ shall rise first" and those who "remain shall be caught up...to meet the Lord in the air"?
i know i'm not allowed to debate here, and trust me, i don't know enough about the subject to debate! LOL!
but this passage sounds like what is called the rapture. oh, and i just thought of another verse (no time to look it up right now) about 2 woman working side by side, one is taken and the other remains. anyone know what i'm talking about?


i guess i thought of it like the "trinity," in that the word itself isn't in the Bible, but the concept is.
isn't what people call the "rapture" what is being described in I Thes 4:15-17

"for this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of GOd; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

btw, darklite, i'm not trying to be argumentative. i'm no expert on endtimes whatsoever! i just wondered what you think these verses refer to.
thanks. kayanne

[WesleyJohn]

.

[kayanne]

Kayanne,

Did you read my post about the word "meet"? Do those verses speak to some "secret rapture" or to the Second Coming. These two things are not necessarily the same thing.

Grace and Peace,

WJ
oh, i thought you were really asking it as a question, not saying those things as your opinion. my mistake :doh: lol
so are you now saying that you think we "meet the Lord in the air" but then come back to earth with Him? i never thought of it that way, but i guess it could be so. but what would the dead in Christ who rise do? do you think they come back to earth with Jesus too?
and do you happen to know that other verse i asked about (the 2 women working?)
now as i think through what you're saying (or what i think you're saying), what are your thoughts on the tribulation? do you believe there will be one, and if so, will christians go through it?

[WesleyJohn]

I'm sure my post was confusing...if for no other reason then because I don't have a solid opinion, so I was just posing the question for the sake of making us think.

I've said something like this elsewhere on this message board: "I'm a little dicey on my eschatalogy. I believe that Jesus is going to return, sometime in the future. But beyond that I guess I'll find out when it happens."

All I'm saying is that it's quite possible that "meet Him in the air" means nothing beyond "meet Him in the air." The verse doesn't state if we will hang out forever in the air with Him, follow Him to Heaven, or escort Him back to Earth. If you already believe in a "secret rapture" than it's easy to read this verse in support of a rapture, but you won't learn "rapture" from this verse.

Exegesis: Reading things out of Scripture. (Good)
Eisegesis: Reading things into Scripture. (Bad)

:D (I'm not suggesting that you're reading things into Scripture. You've been instructed in a pre-millenial theological context which has taught you about a "secret rapture" and so you read scripture with those lenses on. I'm sure that I have a different set of lenses on that color my reading of different texts too. The challenge of the serious Bible Scholar is to take the lenses off and 1) determine what the text meant to its original audience, and 2) attempt to understand what it may be telling us today.)

If I run "Rapture" through the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, this is what I find:

1) Scripture - There doesn't seem to be a lot of exegetical support for a "Secret Rapture." We are confident that Jesus will return. We're confident of the resurrection of the dead. We're confident that those who died in the Lord will be with Him forever. I don't think we can state with any confidence much beyond those points.

2) Tradition - "Rapture" is not a historical teaching of the Church. In 20 centuries of Church History, it took someone in the 19th century to discover (or formulate) this doctrine.

3) Reason - It would be difficult to logically deduce how God might choose to end the world. Our understanding of God says that He is Holy Love, just, merciful, and gracious. If there were to be a tribulation of people, it might be reasonable to suggest that God's mercy and grace might remove the saints from that tribulation. And yet, Old Testament history shows us that when God sent judgment on a culture, it came upon the saints and the sinners alike. My reason is conflicted.

4) Experience - Since Christ has not returned, my experience is of no value in this discussion.

And so, I'm left with a pan-millennial/pan-tribulation theology which states (and I don't mean to be flippant), "It will all pan out in the end." In adhering to this eschatology, I am affirming God's grace, justice, mercy and love. I can trust Him, because He is righteous and good, and will do what is right. I place myself in His hands.

Grace and Peace to you,

WesleyJohn

[WesleyJohn]

Some of you might be interested in reading Dennis Bratcher's article on this topic: http://www.cresourcei.org/rapture.html

[*Song Bird*]

I am a Post-Tribulational Premillennialist. Which means I beleive the Bible teches that the Lord will return to rule for 1000 years with us after the Tribulation. This Spring I started a paper that is currently 36,000 words defending this stance. I thought I'd share a little of my feelings on what you've been talking about here.

In 1Thessalonians 4:15 the word Descend (katabaino) implies complete decent. He’s coming in the clouds headed somewhere. (Earth) In the very next verse, the word used for meet is only used two other times in scripture. The first time it’s used in the parable of the five virgins going to meet the bridegroom. The bridegroom comes meets the virgins, and continues to head towards the wedding supper. The second time is in Acts 28, Paul is traveling toward Rome, & some disciples come far to meet him. From that point Paul continues & it’s the disciples who turn around & continue with Paul to his destination. If this word has essentially the same meaning as the other two occurrences, it’s seems as if Christ’s on his way to earth, we meet him part way & follow him back to the earth.
This brings up the question of where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is. Pre-Tribs say that it is in heaven, however I do not beleive this is so because of a few passages.
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These are the true sayings of God
The fact that the angles are praising God for destroying Bablyon the Whore, which is supposed to happen at the end of the Tribulation,and then go right into talking about the Marriage Supper, tells me that the Supper happens also at the end of the Tribulation. Another thing, if the Marriage Supper of the lamb's supposed to be with Christ Church aka bride, wouldn't that mean his whole church? Followers of all time? If this supper is before the Tribulation how can his whole church be there-when some will still beleive during the Tribulation? As Saints are mentioned throught revelation. The only time where the whole church can be present, is at the end of all things.
here's a parallel passage;
Isaiah 24
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of Hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. (Day of the Lord)
25:1 O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee...
2 For thou hast made a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city: it shall never be built....
6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of Hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of morrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it
This feast happens when death is swallowed up in victory. That happens at the 7th trump in revelation, which according to 1Cor 15:52 is the one we're supposed to be raised at. Placing the feast around this time at the end of the Trib.
Jesus also said,
Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Until the Kingdom of God comes, when is that? When Christ brings his New Jerusalem down to the Earth and rules and reigns with us. He further confirms this by saying that his disciples will be sitting on thrones judging.

I hope some of this made sense, and if anyone has any other questions feel free to pm me.

[HeatherJay]

My own personal stance is that I don't know how or when Jesus will return, only that He will. I have read the Scriptures but I don't feel the need to dwell on the rapture overmuch. I haven't read any of the Left Behind books or any of that stuff because they seem only out to scare people into repentence with claims about what the end times will be like...they're fiction based loosely on Scripture and it's a little sad that many people don't realize that. In otherwords, I think the rapture will be a pretty small part of the overall picture. JMO.

LOL, I remember being in the 8th grade back in 1988. My class was outside during our break period on the day and the hour that 'The Rapture of 1988' or whatever the prediction had been by some religious fellow was supposed to occur. I can remember being terrified of what was about to happen just having heard other kids talk about it (who'd no doubt heard their parents talking about it). I was waiting for the clouds to roll and the sun to turn red or something. There was almost a collective silent countdown among my classmates as the time came and went with no one having been raptured. And I remember thinking then and there at 13 years old that when it DOES happen it's surely not going to be a tabloid or something of the like that predicts it...and being something unpredictable, it's quite silly for me to sit around just waiting for it to occur (no offense to those who might feel that it IS worthwhile to sit around and worry over it...JMO).