Is the understanding of the Sabbath and other truths to be poured out by Latter Rain?

[reddogs]

In the time of the end every divine institution is to be restored. The breach made in the law at the time the Sabbath was changed by man, is to be repaired. God's remnant people, standing before the world as reformers, are to show that the law of God is the foundation of all enduring reform and that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is to stand as a memorial of creation, a constant reminder of the power of God. In clear, distinct lines they are to present the necessity of obedience to all the precepts of the Decalogue. Constrained by the love of Christ, they are to co-operate with Him in building up the waste places. They are to be repairers of the breach, restorers of paths to dwell in. Prophets and Kings Chapter 57 Page 678

[TrustAndObey]

I'm fascinated with the subject of the Latter Rain.

Red, do you think it will fall all at once, or do you think it will be a steady sprinkle?

[OntheDL]

I'm fascinated with the subject of the Latter Rain.

Red, do you think it will fall all at once, or do you think it will be a steady sprinkle?

Hi Lainie,

EGW wrote volumes on the Latter Rain. Here is a page from the Last Day Events.

The Promise of the Latter Rain

The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was "the former rain," and glorious was the
186
result. But the latter rain will be more abundant.--8T 21 (1904). {LDE 185.5} Near the close of earth's harvest, a special bestowal of spiritual grace is promised to prepare the church for the coming of the Son of man. This outpouring of the Spirit is likened to the falling of the latter rain.--AA 55 (1911). {LDE 186.1}

Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children.--GC 464 (1911). {LDE 186.2}

The work will be similar to that of the Day of Pentecost. As the "former rain" was given, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the opening of the gospel, to cause the upspringing of the precious seed, so the "latter rain" will be given at its close for the ripening of the harvest.--GC 611 (1911). {LDE 186.3}


The Latter Rain Will Produce the Loud Cry

At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.--EW 86 (1854). {LDE 186.4}

I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. . . . I asked what
187
had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel."--EW 271 (1858). {LDE 186.5}


...

Total Surrender Required

God will accept nothing less than unreserved surrender. Half-hearted, sinful Christians can never enter heaven. There they would find no happiness, for they know nothing of the high, holy principles that govern the members of the royal family. The true Christian keeps the windows of the soul open heavenward. He lives in fellowship with Christ. His will is
192
conformed to the will of Christ. His highest desire is to become more and more Christlike.--RH May 16, 1907. {LDE 191.5}

We cannot use the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is to use us. Through the Spirit God works in His people "to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). But many will not submit to this. They want to manage themselves. This is why they do not receive the heavenly gift. Only to those who wait humbly upon God, who watch for His guidance and grace, is the Spirit given.--DA 672 (1898). {LDE 192.1}


Clearing the Way for the Latter Rain

I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should therefore be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.--EW 71 (1851). {LDE 192.2}

It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost.--5T 214 (1882). {LDE 192.3}

There is nothing that Satan fears so much as that the people of God shall clear the way by removing every hindrance, so that the Lord can pour out His Spirit upon a languishing church. . . . Every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret,
193
may be successfully resisted, "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts" (Zech. 4:6).--1SM 124 (1887). {LDE 192.4}

The latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.--1SM 191 (1892). {LDE 193.1}


Become Active Laborers in Christ's Service

When the churches become living, working churches, the Holy Spirit will be given in answer to their sincere request. . . . Then the windows of heaven will be open for the showers of the latter rain.--RH Feb. 25, 1890. {LDE 193.2}

The great outpouring of the Spirit of God, which lightens the whole earth with His glory, will not come until we have an enlightened people, that know by experience what it means to be laborers together with God. When we have entire, wholehearted consecration to the service of Christ, God will recognize the fact by an outpouring of His Spirit without measure; but this will not be while the largest portion of the church are not laborers together with God.--ChS 253 (1896). {LDE 193.3}

When the reproach of indolence and slothfulness shall have been wiped away from the church, the Spirit of the Lord will be graciously manifested. Divine
194
power will be revealed. The church will see the providential working of the Lord of hosts.--9T 46 (1909). {LDE 193.4}


"Keep the Vessel Clean and Right Side Up"

We need not worry about the latter rain. All we have to do is to keep the vessel clean and right side up and prepared for the reception of the heavenly rain, and keep praying, "Let the latter rain come into my vessel. Let the light of the glorious angel which unites with the third angel shine upon me; give me a part in the work; let me sound the proclamation; let me be a colaborer with Jesus Christ." Thus seeking God, let me tell you, He is fitting you up all the time, giving you His grace.--UL 283 (1891). {LDE 194.1}

The answer may come with sudden velocity and overpowering might, or it may be delayed for days and weeks, and our faith receive a trial. But God knows how and when to answer our prayer. It is our part of the work to put ourselves in connection with the divine channel. God is responsible for His part of the work. He is faithful who hath promised. The great and important matter with us is to be of one heart and mind, putting aside all envy and malice and, as humble supplicants, to watch and wait. Jesus, our Representative and Head, is ready to do for us what He did for the praying, watching ones on the Day of Pentecost.--3SP 272 (1878). {LDE 194.2}

I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place--when
195
the mighty angel will come down from heaven and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world. My message is that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our lamps trimmed and burning.--1SM 192 (1892). {LDE 194.3}


Not All Will Receive the Latter Rain

I was shown that if God's people make no efforts on their part, but wait for the refreshing to come upon them and remove their wrongs and correct their errors; if they depend upon that to cleanse them from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and fit them to engage in the loud cry of the third angel, they will be found wanting.--1T 619 (1867). {LDE 195.1}

Are we hoping to see the whole church revived? That time will never come. There are persons in the church who are not converted, and who will not unite in earnest, prevailing prayer. We must enter upon the work individually. We must pray more, and talk less.--1SM 122 (1887). {LDE 195.2}

We may be sure that when the Holy Spirit is poured out, those who did not receive and appreciate the early rain will not see or understand the value of the latter rain.--TM 399 (1896). {LDE 195.3}

Only those who are living up to the light they have will receive greater light. Unless we are daily advancing in the exemplification of the active Christian virtues, we shall not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling on hearts all around us, but we shall not discern or receive it.--TM 507 (1897). {LDE 195.4}

Those who make no decided effort, but simply wait for the Holy Spirit to compel them to action, will perish in darkness. You are not to sit still and do nothing in the work of God.--ChS 228 (1903). {LDE 196.1}


The Spirit of Prophecy testifies:
1. The Latter Rain empowers the Loud Cry of the Third Angel's message. The essence of the 3rd angel's message is the true righteousness by faith message. This is consistent with the sanctuary message.

2. Not all in the church will receive the Latter Rain, meaning there will not be a corporate outpouring onto the church as a whole. Just look at the condition of the church, how true is that statement. The Latter Rain will fall on individuals who are totally dedicated to Christ unbeknown to others who might sit in the same pews but are not ready.

[ricker]

Hi Lainie,

EGW wrote volumes on the Latter Rain. Here is a page from the Last Day Events.

The Promise of the Latter Rain

The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was "the former rain," and glorious was the
186
result. But the latter rain will be more abundant.--8T 21 (1904). {LDE 185.5} Near the close of earth's harvest, a special bestowal of spiritual grace is promised to prepare the church for the coming of the Son of man. This outpouring of the Spirit is likened to the falling of the latter rain.--AA 55 (1911). {LDE 186.1}

Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children.--GC 464 (1911). {LDE 186.2}

The work will be similar to that of the Day of Pentecost. As the "former rain" was given, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the opening of the gospel, to cause the upspringing of the precious seed, so the "latter rain" will be given at its close for the ripening of the harvest.--GC 611 (1911). {LDE 186.3}


The Latter Rain Will Produce the Loud Cry

At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.--EW 86 (1854). {LDE 186.4}

I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. . . . I asked what
187
had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel."--EW 271 (1858). {LDE 186.5}


...

Total Surrender Required

God will accept nothing less than unreserved surrender. Half-hearted, sinful Christians can never enter heaven. There they would find no happiness, for they know nothing of the high, holy principles that govern the members of the royal family. The true Christian keeps the windows of the soul open heavenward. He lives in fellowship with Christ. His will is
192
conformed to the will of Christ. His highest desire is to become more and more Christlike.--RH May 16, 1907. {LDE 191.5}

We cannot use the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is to use us. Through the Spirit God works in His people "to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). But many will not submit to this. They want to manage themselves. This is why they do not receive the heavenly gift. Only to those who wait humbly upon God, who watch for His guidance and grace, is the Spirit given.--DA 672 (1898). {LDE 192.1}


Clearing the Way for the Latter Rain

I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should therefore be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.--EW 71 (1851). {LDE 192.2}

It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost.--5T 214 (1882). {LDE 192.3}

There is nothing that Satan fears so much as that the people of God shall clear the way by removing every hindrance, so that the Lord can pour out His Spirit upon a languishing church. . . . Every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret,
193
may be successfully resisted, "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts" (Zech. 4:6).--1SM 124 (1887). {LDE 192.4}

The latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.--1SM 191 (1892). {LDE 193.1}


Become Active Laborers in Christ's Service

When the churches become living, working churches, the Holy Spirit will be given in answer to their sincere request. . . . Then the windows of heaven will be open for the showers of the latter rain.--RH Feb. 25, 1890. {LDE 193.2}

The great outpouring of the Spirit of God, which lightens the whole earth with His glory, will not come until we have an enlightened people, that know by experience what it means to be laborers together with God. When we have entire, wholehearted consecration to the service of Christ, God will recognize the fact by an outpouring of His Spirit without measure; but this will not be while the largest portion of the church are not laborers together with God.--ChS 253 (1896). {LDE 193.3}

When the reproach of indolence and slothfulness shall have been wiped away from the church, the Spirit of the Lord will be graciously manifested. Divine
194
power will be revealed. The church will see the providential working of the Lord of hosts.--9T 46 (1909). {LDE 193.4}


"Keep the Vessel Clean and Right Side Up"

We need not worry about the latter rain. All we have to do is to keep the vessel clean and right side up and prepared for the reception of the heavenly rain, and keep praying, "Let the latter rain come into my vessel. Let the light of the glorious angel which unites with the third angel shine upon me; give me a part in the work; let me sound the proclamation; let me be a colaborer with Jesus Christ." Thus seeking God, let me tell you, He is fitting you up all the time, giving you His grace.--UL 283 (1891). {LDE 194.1}

The answer may come with sudden velocity and overpowering might, or it may be delayed for days and weeks, and our faith receive a trial. But God knows how and when to answer our prayer. It is our part of the work to put ourselves in connection with the divine channel. God is responsible for His part of the work. He is faithful who hath promised. The great and important matter with us is to be of one heart and mind, putting aside all envy and malice and, as humble supplicants, to watch and wait. Jesus, our Representative and Head, is ready to do for us what He did for the praying, watching ones on the Day of Pentecost.--3SP 272 (1878). {LDE 194.2}

I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place--when
195
the mighty angel will come down from heaven and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world. My message is that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our lamps trimmed and burning.--1SM 192 (1892). {LDE 194.3}


Not All Will Receive the Latter Rain

I was shown that if God's people make no efforts on their part, but wait for the refreshing to come upon them and remove their wrongs and correct their errors; if they depend upon that to cleanse them from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and fit them to engage in the loud cry of the third angel, they will be found wanting.--1T 619 (1867). {LDE 195.1}

Are we hoping to see the whole church revived? That time will never come. There are persons in the church who are not converted, and who will not unite in earnest, prevailing prayer. We must enter upon the work individually. We must pray more, and talk less.--1SM 122 (1887). {LDE 195.2}

We may be sure that when the Holy Spirit is poured out, those who did not receive and appreciate the early rain will not see or understand the value of the latter rain.--TM 399 (1896). {LDE 195.3}

Only those who are living up to the light they have will receive greater light. Unless we are daily advancing in the exemplification of the active Christian virtues, we shall not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling on hearts all around us, but we shall not discern or receive it.--TM 507 (1897). {LDE 195.4}

Those who make no decided effort, but simply wait for the Holy Spirit to compel them to action, will perish in darkness. You are not to sit still and do nothing in the work of God.--ChS 228 (1903). {LDE 196.1}


The Spirit of Prophecy testifies:
1. The Latter Rain empowers the Loud Cry of the Third Angel's message. The essence of the 3rd angel's message is the true righteousness by faith message. This is consistent with the sanctuary message.

2. Not all in the church will receive the Latter Rain, meaning there will not be a corporate outpouring onto the church as a whole. Just look at the condition of the church, how true is that statement. The Latter Rain will fall on individuals who are totally dedicated to Christ unbeknown to others who might sit in the same pews but are not ready.

Is any of this actually Scriptural or is it made up? I haven't done much study on the "latter rain", but the Biblical use of the term doesn't seem to uphold these ideas. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[OntheDL]

Is any of this actually Scriptural or is it made up? I haven't done much study on the "latter rain", but the Biblical use of the term doesn't seem to uphold these ideas. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You said you haven't done much studying on the subject, yet you said the biblical use of the term doesn't seem to uphold these ideas. Can you substantiate on which ideas you think it doesn't uphold?

[Cribstyl]

You said you haven't done much studying on the subject, yet you said the biblical use of the term doesn't seem to uphold these ideas. Can you substantiate on which ideas you think it doesn't uphold?

Seems to me that Ricker is asking for biblical references to support your statements already made in this thread because they appear as foreign to scriptures.

After all that has been said without any text references, would it not be propper to first attempt to reply to his request rather than put him on the hot seat to answer you inquisition?
.........................................................................................



If the "former rain" is characterized as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which came on the day of Pentecost.
Why would this Holy Spirit driven message called the "Gospel of salvation" found in Acts (and the NT books that follows), change at the "latter rain" to statements and commandement about the sabbath and the law, that we cannot attribute to statements and commandments given by any apostle of the former rain?

Gal 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gal&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Eph 1:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 1:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=13&y=9#)Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.



Respectfully
CRIB

[Cribstyl]

1Ti 1:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
1Ti 1:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1Ti 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=10&y=12#) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The Gospel in the bible clearly teaches that the commandments was not made for a righteous man, and by love we complete what the law requires of us.



They've got you convinced by commenatary that; "The law is eternal except for the ceromonial part of it, and without the commandments you're saying it's OK to kill, steal, commit adultry, ect."

They want us to confuse the scriptures teaching about why the law came and the purpose of the Law.


By reading what is written we know that sin should not be an option to believers.

There are tons of text that condemns sin, but these texts donot mention or command keeping law because that would contradict countless the text that says we're not under the law.


Text actually teach that placing ourselves under the law is to remarry to whom God said we've been divorced from, and are dead to. That's why your "latter rain" message should be questioned.

Rom 7:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
Rom 7:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#)[B] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=7&translation=kjv&x=5&y=14#) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

dont hate the messenger of the Gospel

CRIB

[ricker]

You said you haven't done much studying on the subject, yet you said the biblical use of the term doesn't seem to uphold these ideas. Can you substantiate on which ideas you think it doesn't uphold?

I was hoping you could back up some of those claims with Scripture.

As far as I know, this is the only place in the NT where "latter rain" is mentioned. James 5:


7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Seems like someone took this verse and really ran far and long with it.

Just a few things I don't see in James 5:


The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was "the former rain," and glorious was the result. But the latter rain will be more abundant

The latter rain will produce the loud cry

It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel.

It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost

I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place--when the mighty angel will come down from heaven and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world.

The Latter Rain will fall on individuals who are totally dedicated to Christ unbeknown to others who might sit in the same pews but are not ready.


Does the Bible say anything like these statements concerning the latter rain? Thanks, Ricker

[OntheDL]

Ricker and Cribstyl,

Our understanding of the latter rain is fully supported by the scriptures. The latter rain is one of the more advanced doctrines of the SDAs. It is derived from our understanding of the 1844 message, our mission and message for the last days.

My original post was an answer to a fellow SDA. But if you wish to examine it, you can start by looking at the sanctuary doctrine, the 1844 message and the Three Angels' message.

I know both of you disagree on those subjects. The scriptures provide little on the loud cry/latter rain explicitly. You asked how we came to this understanding. That's where you have to start.

[ricker]

Ricker and Cribstyl,

Our understanding of the latter rain is fully supported by the scriptures. The latter rain is one of the more advanced doctrines of the SDAs. It is derived from our understanding of the 1844 message, our mission and message for the last days.

My original post was an answer to a fellow SDA. But if you wish to examine it, you can start by looking at the sanctuary doctrine, the 1844 message and the Three Angels' message.

I know both of you disagree on those subjects. The scriptures provide little on the loud cry/latter rain explicitly. You asked how we came to this understanding. That's where you have to start.

Thanks, OntheDL, this answers my question.
The only reason I questioned the OP was because it was posted in the debate section. You are of course free to believe this interpretation of the latter rain. I do think, however, that it is partly deception when Adventists say their beliefs are strait Bible without influence by E.G. White. I'm sure certain Biblical passages can be used to support her statements, but that is like putting the wagon in front of the horse.
My two cents, Ricker

[OntheDL]

Thanks, OntheDL, this answers my question.
The only reason I questioned the OP was because it was posted in the debate section. You are of course free to believe this interpretation of the latter rain. I do think, however, that it is partly deception when Adventists say their beliefs are strait Bible without influence by E.G. White. I'm sure certain Biblical passages can be used to support her statements, but that is like putting the wagon in front of the horse.
My two cents, Ricker

Ricker,

You are speaking as a true outsider regarding the Adventist movement. To understand this, one has to understand the Adventist history and the role of Ellen White's writings in the church.

After the great disappointment of 1844, Ellen White was but a teenager, in this early years (after 1844), the Adventist pioneers formulated our present-day beliefs through exhaustive bible studies and earnest prayers as they were looking for an answer to their bitter experience of 1844. The influence of EGW's writings did not come into factor until AFTER the core theology has been formed. If you study the history and controversies of the early SDA church, you will see her writings never dictated the church doctrine, they merely FORCED the pioneers to refocus on the scriptures.

Read EGW's own testimony: she said her writings are never to be the rule of faith, rather it should be solely based on scriptures.

[reddogs]

Thanks, OntheDL, this answers my question.
The only reason I questioned the OP was because it was posted in the debate section. You are of course free to believe this interpretation of the latter rain. I do think, however, that it is partly deception when Adventists say their beliefs are strait Bible without influence by E.G. White. I'm sure certain Biblical passages can be used to support her statements, but that is like putting the wagon in front of the horse.
My two cents, Ricker

So when the Holy Spirit in the last days pours out even more understanding and guides us into the fullness of truth with more than what is contained in the Bible, will you reject it because its not detailed in the scriptures..?

[ricker]

Ricker,

You are speaking as a true outsider regarding the Adventist movement. To understand this, one has to understand the Adventist history and the role of Ellen White's writings in the church.

After the great disappointment of 1844, Ellen White was but a teenager, in this early years (after 1844), the Adventist pioneers formulated our present-day beliefs through exhaustive bible studies and earnest prayers as they were looking for an answer to their bitter experience of 1844. The influence of EGW's writings did not come into factor until AFTER the core theology has been formed. If you study the history and controversies of the early SDA church, you will see her writings never dictated the church doctrine, they merely FORCED the pioneers to refocus on the scriptures.

Read EGW's own testimony: she said her writings are never to be the rule of faith, rather it should be solely based on scriptures.

You may be right about this. My point, and this is just my opinion, is that the latter rain scenario and details described by Mrs. White did not origionate with the Bible passages on the subject.
God bless! Ricker

[ricker]

So when the Holy Spirit in the last days pours out even more understanding and guides us into the fullness of truth with more than what is contained in the Bible, will you reject it because its not detailed in the scriptures..?

Sorry to go back to the Bible, but where does it say new, essential to salvation truth not contained in Scriptures will be poured out to us in the last days? Christ died for my sins and has given me faith to accept His promise of the Holy Spirit and eternal life. That new, critical, non-scriptural doctrines will arise that weren't known to the Apostles and made known to Christians through the years sounds improbable to me.
God bless! Ricker

[reddogs]

Sorry to go back to the Bible, but where does it say new, essential to salvation truth not contained in Scriptures will be poured out to us in the last days? Christ died for my sins and has given me faith to accept His promise of the Holy Spirit and eternal life. That new, critical, non-scriptural doctrines will arise that weren't known to the Apostles and made known to Christians through the years sounds improbable to me.
God bless! Ricker

Thats exactly what the Pharisees frame of mind was when Christ came, what new truth does He have that we dont already know. Well the prophets came for the same reason to give truth to the people that they had set aside, forgotten or rejected or felt comfortable with their understanding even if the tradition of man had become incorporated into it. The 10 Commandments and the Sabbath has been set aside by many Christians and yet it still is truth, the Prophecies of Revelation are vaguely understood by most Chritians and scripture tells us the truths contained in them will be unvieled. It will come as the Spirit pours out and lets prophecy, visions, and dreams to help unviel Gods truth to man as he has done before...

Acts 2:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

[ricker]

Thats exactly what the Pharisees frame of mind was when Christ came, what new truth does He have that we dont already know. Well the prophets came for the same reason to give truth to the people that they had set aside, forgotten or rejected or felt comfortable with their understanding even if the tradition of man had become incorporated into it. The 10 Commandments and the Sabbath has been set aside by many Christians and yet it still is truth, the Prophecies of Revelation are vaguely understood by most Chritians and scripture tells us the truths contained in them will be unvieled. It will come as the Spirit pours out and lets prophecy, visions, and dreams to help unviel Gods truth to man as he has done before...

Acts 2:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=2&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

No offence, but that's quite a stretch comparing Christians under the new covenant, the Body of Christ, to the Pharisees. Christ fulfilled what the old system looked forward to. It's a done deal.

Please answer this question for me. If worshipping on the first day of the week is such an abomination to God, why did He allow Christians to blindly do it for hundreds (thousands?) of years?

As far as your quote goes, does it say anything about added insight that would be critical to the salvation of people? BTW, the last days began in Apostolic times. 1 Corinthians 14 is full of advice to the new church about how to handle everyone who was prophesying.


31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.


Anyway, I will let you have the last word, if you please, and bow respectfully out of this conversation. God bless! Ricker

[reddogs]

No offence, but that's quite a stretch comparing Christians under the new covenant, the Body of Christ, to the Pharisees. Christ fulfilled what the old system looked forward to. It's a done deal.

Please answer this question for me. If worshipping on the first day of the week is such an abomination to God, why did He allow Christians to blindly do it for hundreds (thousands?) of years?

As far as your quote goes, does it say anything about added insight that would be critical to the salvation of people? BTW, the last days began in Apostolic times. 1 Corinthians 14 is full of advice to the new church about how to handle everyone who was prophesying.



Anyway, I will let you have the last word, if you please, and bow respectfully out of this conversation. God bless! Ricker

He has been trying to reach those who picked up traditions of man and false doctrine, but just like in the time of Jesus, it gets ingrained deeply and men are too proud or full of self to open their eyes and see truth...

[Cribstyl]

Ricker and Cribstyl,

Our understanding of the latter rain is fully supported by the scriptures. The latter rain is one of the more advanced doctrines of the SDAs. It is derived from our understanding of the 1844 message, our mission and message for the last days.

My original post was an answer to a fellow SDA. But if you wish to examine it, you can start by looking at the sanctuary doctrine, the 1844 message and the Three Angels' message.

I know both of you disagree on those subjects. The scriptures provide little on the loud cry/latter rain explicitly. You asked how we came to this understanding. That's where you have to start.

I guess this is better than no answer at all,..Thanks.

Is this doctrine a part of the fundermental beliefs?

I may appear disrespectful and irreverent but the bible tells us to test the spirit by what the spirit has already said.
Some people take offence rather than trying to help find answers to reasonable questions about what endtime doctrines the Christian church should hold.

It seems that the bible is subjected to debate and discussion but the spirit of prophecy is treated as more sacred and protected from public examination.
Seems to me that, if it is God's word for the world. it should not be held and edited over the decades.

The predominary message in the compiled exerts that you posted clearly presents a doctrine of works in order to have a part in the latter rain.

CRIB

[reddogs]

I guess this is better than no answer at all,..Thanks.

Is this doctrine a part of the fundermental beliefs?

I may appear disrespectful and irreverent but the bible tells us to test the spirit by what the spirit has already said.
Some people take offence rather than trying to help find answers to reasonable questions about what endtime doctrines the Christian church should hold.

It seems that the bible is subjected to debate and discussion but the spirit of prophecy is treated as more sacred and protected from public examination.
Seems to me that, if it is God's word for the world. it should not be held and edited over the decades.

The predominary message in the compiled exerts that you posted clearly presents a doctrine of works in order to have a part in the latter rain.

CRIB

So when the prophets came they should have been ignored.......we have to look at what is given to us to see if it comes from God and see if it is in harmony and guides into fuller understanding as God doesnt stop giving us light.

[ricker]

So when the prophets came they should have been ignored.......we have to look at what is given to us to see if it comes from God and see if it is in harmony and guides into fuller understanding as God doesnt stop giving us light.

So I guess it all comes down to the one and only contemporary prophet, Mrs. White, and her interpretation of Scripture, which is of course infallible.

Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

[reddogs]

So I guess it all comes down to the one and only contemporary prophet, Mrs. White, and her interpretation of Scripture, which is of course infallible.

Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Christ sent the Holy Spirit after He ascended to guide us in many ways, now if you say 'infallible' on a writing that is up to you to decide as I did not claim that. But when the Holy Spirit comes and gives you understanding, will you accept it or reject it, thats what it comes down to.

1 Corinthians 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

[ricker]

Christ sent the Holy Spirit after He ascended to guide us in many ways, now if you say 'infallible' on a writing that is up to you to decide as I did not claim that. But when the Holy Spirit comes and gives you understanding, will you accept it or reject it, thats what it comes down to.

1 Corinthians 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

You did infer EGW as equal with Biblical prophets.

I really don't like to engage in debates about Ellen, I really don't know if she was a prophet or not. I've read inspiring things from her, and also really suspect things. I try to stick with the Bible, I'm sure about that.
God bless! Ricker

[reddogs]

You did infer EGW as equal with Biblical prophets.

I really don't like to engage in debates about Ellen, I really don't know if she was a prophet or not. I've read inspiring things from her, and also really suspect things. I try to stick with the Bible, I'm sure about that.
God bless! Ricker

And Peter made mistakes, Noah got drunk, Jonah had his problems, Moses had mistakes, we humans are not 'infallible', thats how Adam got us into this....:)

My point is that we must allow for what is from God and obey what is from him or we may find ourselves fighting against God, as if it is just from man, it will fail and fade away to nothing..

Acts 5


29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." 33When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

[ricker]

My point is that we must allow for what is from God and obey what is from him or we may find ourselves fighting against God, as if it is just from man, it will fail and fade away to nothing..


Christians worshipping on Sunday has stood the test of time. Must be from God...... ;)

[reddogs]

Christians worshipping on Sunday has stood the test of time. Must be from God...... ;)

The Sabbath shows what is from God, and the pagan day of the Sun (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=4844573&highlight=sunday) has been been pushed since Baal, and so it will be to the end when God will make very clear what is His truth through the Holy Spirit as it pours out.

[ricker]

The Sabbath shows what is from God, and the pagan day of the Sun (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=4844573&highlight=sunday) has been been pushed since Baal, and so it will be to the end when God will make very clear what is His truth through the Holy Spirit as it pours out.

That long treatise about Sunday is interesting in a way. What I don't like about it is the lack of footnotes, making confirming most of the claims impossible. Not very scholarly. I did notice some of the Bible verses alluded to really didn't say what they were purported to say.

[reddogs]

That long treatise about Sunday is interesting in a way. What I don't like about it is the lack of footnotes, making confirming most of the claims impossible. Not very scholarly. I did notice some of the Bible verses alluded to really didn't say what they were purported to say.

But its clear where the worship of the pagan sun and their pagan gods comes from, and has been pushed from the begining. It will only disappear when God like at Mt Carmel makes clear at the end that Baal and his worship and prophets are false.

[Cribstyl]

So when the prophets came they should have been ignored.......we have to look at what is given to us to see if it comes from God and see if it is in harmony and guides into fuller understanding as God doesnt stop giving us light.

Thanks for replying Red,

Noone ignors the prophets and you know that.
We all know that what most people believe about creation and history are from the writtings of prophets.
As it is written all these things were written for our learning.

Prophets fortell what only a true God reveals will happen in the future.

Prophecy is a gift given to believers who must subject themselves to the church rather than heading the churches as apostles should do with the message of the gospel.


What we understand from the church age is, God has set the Apostles (Apostolic message) first because they declares the words of salvation by which we believe and are saved.

An apostle is a witness of what Jesus has said and done... faith is based primarily on what they have declared.

1Jo 1:3 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=1&v=3&t=KJV#3)That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jo 1:5 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=1&v=5&t=KJV#5)This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The words of a prophet comes to those who are already believers. they fortell or write what God will has said or will do.

1Cr 12:28 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=12&v=28&t=KJV#28)And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The doctrines of Faith are not set forth as prophecies. The doctrines are clearly set forth in the 4gospels and the Epistles as true doctrines we're to believe.



And Peter made mistakes, Noah got drunk, Jonah had his problems, Moses had mistakes, we humans are not 'infallible', thats how Adam got us into this....:)

My point is that we must allow for what is from God and obey what is from him or we may find ourselves fighting against God, as if it is just from man, it will fail and fade away to nothing..


:doh:Who can compare to the prophets of whom even Jesus had to fulfill every iota of their words?

Pointing to their human nature does not mean that their mistakes justifies that EGW's writings should be considered as comparable to scriptutres, or does it?:idea:

Their words have proven them as prophets but EGW has changed her views about many issues.
Her writting are in a state of edit by her library, having authority over church or public access.


CRIB

[ricker]

But its clear where the worship of the pagan sun and their pagan gods comes from, and has been pushed from the begining. It will only disappear when God like at Mt Carmel makes clear at the end that Baal and his worship and prophets are false.

I refuse to believe that the reverent, Christ centered worship I attend every Sunday is in fact, Baal worship. That it happens to occur on the "day of the sun", matters no more than you worshipping on the "day of saturn". May I respectfully suggest you go to a Christian church this Sunday and see if they are worshipping "the pagan sun and their pagan gods".

[Cribstyl]

The Sabbath shows what is from God, and the pagan day of the Sun (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=4844573&highlight=sunday) has been been pushed since Baal, and so it will be to the end when God will make very clear what is His truth through the Holy Spirit as it pours out.
The first Christian reference to Sunday is found in the First Apology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Apology) of St. Justin Martyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr) (c. 150 AD). In a well-known passage of the Apology (Chapter 67), Justin describes the Christian custom of gathering for worship on Sunday. "And on the day called Sunday [τῇ τοῦ ῾Ηλίου λεγομένη ἡμέρᾳ], all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits . . .", he writes. Evidently Justin used the term Sunday because he was writing to a non-Christian, pagan audience. In Justin's time, Christians usually called Sunday the Lord's Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Day) (because they observed it as a weekly memorial of Jesus Christ's resurrection).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday#cite_note-4)

[reddogs]

The first Christian reference to Sunday is found in the First Apology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Apology) of St. Justin Martyr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr) (c. 150 AD). In a well-known passage of the Apology (Chapter 67), Justin describes the Christian custom of gathering for worship on Sunday. "And on the day called Sunday [τῇ τοῦ ῾Ηλίου λεγομένη ἡμέρᾳ], all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits . . .", he writes. Evidently Justin used the term Sunday because he was writing to a non-Christian, pagan audience. In Justin's time, Christians usually called Sunday the Lord's Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Day) (because they observed it as a weekly memorial of Jesus Christ's resurrection).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday#cite_note-4)

But nowhere in the Bible is there any reference to a change to Sunday, it was from the pressure to acomodate the pagan worshippers who they wanted in the church especially in Rome as the bishop of Rome competed with Alexandria for influence. Bring them in by offering a day which they worshipped their pagan sun god and it would allow them to continue as before and swell the ranks of the bishops 'flock'. They compromised then called it a 'tradition' which has no basis in scripture, it is a deal with...lets say 'paganism'....

[reddogs]

Here is a good explanation...

"..Christians compromise with pagan “sun worship” practices and adopt “Sunday” as a day of rest: “Before the coming of Christ, all the Eastern nations performed divine worship with their faces turned to that part of the heavens where the sun displays his rising beams ... The Christian converts ... retained the ancient and universal custom of worshiping toward the east, which sprang from it.” Mosheim’s Ecclesiastical History, century ii, part ii, ch. iv, par. 7. “Sunday (Dies Solis, of the Roman calendar; ‘day of the sun,’ because it was dedicated to the sun), the first day of the week, was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.” Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia of Religious Knowledge, Art. “Sunday.” “We all gather on the day of the sun ... on this same day Jesus Christ our Savoir rose from the dead.” From the “Church Father,” St. Justin. Quoted in the New Official Catholic Catechism (1994), p. 524.
Following in the steps of ancient Israel, Christians in the 1st (latter part), 2nd and 3rd centuries “hid their eyes” from God’s Sabbaths (see Ezekiel 22:26) and adopted pagan traditions associated with sun worship.
The Church “in Rome” becomes the Roman Catholic Church: Before the Jewish Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., a strong Christian Church was planted through missionary efforts inside the city of Rome itself – in the heart of the Roman Empire. Paul wrote his letter, “The Epistle of Paul to the Romans,” to those early believers “in Rome.” Romans 1:7. But because it was surrounded by paganism inside the world’s mightiest capital, this Church soon experienced a “falling away” (see 2 Thessalonians 2:3) from the purity of the gospel and meta-morphed into the wealthy, politically savvy and powerful Roman Catholic Church. This transition especially took place during the time of the Emperor Constantine (4th century) who favoured the Roman Catholic Church above all other Christian Churches.
Constantine, Catholicism, sun worship and Sunday: In 312 A.D., prior to his pivotal victory over his rival Maxentius at the Battle of Milvian Bridge, Constantine became a “Christian” after claiming to see in broad daylight a vision of “a cross above the sun” with these words emblazoned, “in hoc signo vinces” (by this sign conquer”). After defeating his enemies and becoming Emperor of Rome, Constantine presided in full royal pomp over the “First Council of Nicea” in 325 A.D.
A shrewd political genius, his scheme was to unite paganism and Christianity in an effort to strengthen his disintegrating empire. Constantine knew that pagans throughout the empire worshiped the sun on “the first day of the week,” and he discovered that many Christians – especially in Rome and Alexandria – also kept ‘Sunday’ because Christ rose from the dead on that day. So Constantine developed a plan to unite both groups on the common platform of Sunday keeping. On March 7, 321 A.D., he passed his famous national Sunday law:
“Let all judges and townspeople and occupations of all trades rest on the venerable day of the Sun [Sunday]; nevertheless, let those who are situated in the rural districts freely and with full liberty attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it so frequently happens that no other day may be so fitting for ploughing grains or trenching vineyards, lest at the time the advantage of the moment granted by the provision of heaven may be lost.” The Code of Justinian, Book 3, title 12, law 3.
Now a professed Christian, Constantine nevertheless remained a devout sun worshipper. “The sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine,” notes Edward Gibbon in his classic Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, ch. xx, par. 3. Constantine even printed coins which “bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ, on the other the figure of the sun god.” Arthur P. Stanley, History of the Eastern Church, lect. vi, par. 14. Again, Constantine’s promotion of Sunday observance was part of his definite strategy to combine paganism with Christianity: “The retention of the old pagan name of dies Solis, or ‘Sunday,’ for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the ‘venerable day of the Sun.’” Stanley’s History of the Eastern Church, p. 184 (emphasis added).
“The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration.” Henry Milman, The History of Christianity, Book 2, chap. 8, Vol. 22, p. 175. In 330 A.D., Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople (modern Istanbul), thus preparing the way for the Roman Catholic Popes to reign in Rome as the successors of Constantine. As the Papal Church grew in power, it opposed Sabbath observance in favour of Sunday sacredness.
Many 5th-century Christians kept the Sabbath and Sunday: In spite of the rising popularity of Sunday sacredness, Church historian Socrates Scholasticus (5th century) wrote: “For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [of the Lord’s Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, ch. 22. Another historian confirmed this, stating, “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.” Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, ch. 19. Thus even in the 5th century, Sabbath keeping was universally prevalent (except in Rome and Alexandria), along with Sunday keeping. Many Christians kept both days. But as the centuries wore on, Sunday keeping grew in prominence, especially within Roman Catholic territories. ..."

Here is what the Roman Catholic church has to say:

‘‘The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.’’ The Catholic Universe Bulletin,August 14, 1942, p. 4.

“The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Roman Catholic] Church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

‘‘I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says, No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church.” Priest Thomas Enright, C.S.S.R., February 18, 1884

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

“The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday. The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday. Protestants must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, ‘Keep holy the Sabbath Day.’ The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible, so, without knowing it they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church.” Canon Cafferata, The Catechism Explained, p. 89.

‘‘Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.’’ John Cardinal Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.