Witches and Demons

[honorthesabbath]

I created this thread earlier in the day, but when I came back to see if any comments were left--it was GONE! So, I thought perhaps I'd try again. Maybe the cyber monster ate it?

As I stated before, I have a bit of a dilemma.

The bible seems to say that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. But it also goes on to tell us NOT to have company with darkness.
So what do we do with those around us who are professed witches (Wiccan's) and possessed by demons? Should we befriend and fellowship with them? Invite them into our groups?

Where is the line drawn between sharing the deliverance of Christ with them and 'hanging out' with them?

Does anyone of our members here have any advice?

[catlover]

I created this thread earlier in the day, but when I came back to see if any comments were left--it was GONE! So, I thought perhaps I'd try again. Maybe the cyber monster ate it?

As I stated before, I have a bit of a dilemma.

The bible seems to say that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. But it also goes on to tell us NOT to have company with darkness.

So what do we do with those around us who are professed witches (Wiccan's) and possessed by demons? Should we befriend and fellowship with them? Invite them into our groups?

Where is the line drawn between sharing the deliverance of Christ with them and 'hanging out' with them?

Does anyone of our members here have any advice?



That is a hard one-but doesn't perfect love drive away all fear?

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Catlover-yes, perfect love is suppose to. But I'm not referring to fear here. I am referring to the commands of God's word to avoid partnership with those who unabashedly proclaim themselves enemies of God by partaking of fellowship with His enemies, ie-witches and [those posessed by demons].

I guess what I'm asking is, isn't it against the teachings of the bible to associate with such?

And what if such a person happens to be a family member? Then what? Stop going to family reunions?? lol ^_^

[catlover]

Hi Catlover-yes, perfect love is suppose to. But I'm not referring to fear here. I am referring to the commands of God's word to avoid partnership with those who unabashedly proclaim themselves enemies of God by partaking of fellowship with His enemies, ie-witches and [those who are possesed by demons]

I guess what I'm asking is, isn't it against the teachings of the bible to associate with such?

And what if such a person happens to be a family member? Then what? Stop going to family reunions?? lol ^_^


I hope we are not supposed to shun family members that would be tough.

[TrustAndObey]

Obviously neither one of you are related to the people I'm related to.

HA!

I know a few Wiccans that have accepted Christ later in life (still receiving their penny of course).

A practicing Wiccan or witch....I just don't know. I have enough drama.

[honorthesabbath]

See--this IS a tough call isn't it? I know a young lady who just recently became involved with Wicca. I KNOW she doesn't even have a clue what she is getting into. Her home life is pretty immoral and she has never been introduced to the bible. So in her case--I think that God over-looks her decision.

But what about adults who claim to have known Christ and then get involved with the occult? Then what?

[TrustAndObey]

See--this IS a tough call isn't it? I know a young lady who just recently became involved with Wicca. I KNOW she doesn't even have a clue what she is getting into. Her home life is pretty immoral and she has never been introduced to the bible. So in her case--I think that God over-looks her decision.

I think I know that young lady as well. She never stood a chance, Honor, and I know you agree with me.

When it's that close to home, how can we NOT love her? I just hope she eventually lets another point of view in.

I think, honestly, that what's going to happen is exactly what happened to her dad. She's going to wake up one day and say "hey, tell me about YOUR God, because mine certainly isn't helping me right now!"

We just have to be there for her when it does happen, because it will.

But what about adults who claim to have known Christ and then get involved with the occult? Then what?

That's very different indeed. I can't imagine going that route personally. Why go over to the dark side when you've had a glimpse of the light?!

[honorthesabbath]

[/b][/color]

I think I know that young lady as well. She never stood a chance, Honor, and I know you agree with me.

When it's that close to home, how can we NOT love her? I just hope she eventually lets another point of view in.

I think, honestly, that what's going to happen is exactly what happened to her dad. She's going to wake up one day and say "hey, tell me about YOUR God, because mine certainly isn't helping me right now!"

We just have to be there for her when it does happen, because it will.



[COLOR=blue]That's very different indeed. I can't imagine going that route personally. Why go over to the dark side when you've had a glimpse of the light?!

[B]Ok--but--here's the question--should we fellowship with these people? And if we do--then are we violating a clear command from God's would NOT to?

[TrustAndObey]

Ok--but--here's the question--should we fellowship with these people? And if we do--then are we violating a clear command from God's would NOT to?

I'm rusty on the verses that talk about it. I remember enough to know it's wrong though. We're to avoid the very appearance of evil.

There's no grey area when it comes to God and serving one Master.

I guess if you were "hanging out" with them to show them the Lord through example it would be one thing, but accepting them when they profess satanic things...I personally could not do it, no.

[happywiththelord]

why in the world where your first 2 posts reported Honor??? There was nothing in there that violated anything!

I cant understand it!

[TrustAndObey]

I think she was misunderstood and nobody caught on that this is a PERSONAL issue and nothing to do with someone else.

[honorthesabbath]

Happy--I can't comment on your question because then I would be guilty of discussing staff actions. It's getting a little too close in this web site for me. Things are just ridiculous now.

I'll tell you in private though.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I think it all depends on the situation. It clearly says we are not to associate with it, but if we all avoided those who followed it where would they be influenced to convert?

I think our main fellowship and socializing should be with like-minds (if it can be helped), but with society right now and it's acceptability of all things non-Christian..we need to also spread our influence to them.

I struggle with this sometimes living with my mom. Especially when I often have to hear of her visions and channelings and astrology and stuff..and her rather..uhm..blasphemous views on a couple subjects. :sigh: Nothing against her, she sorta evolved into her beliefs and I was there too at one time. Nonetheless...I believe God wants me to help her through the hard times she's been going through, and if I were to turn my back on her because of the reasons above I couldn't do that, right?

..At the very least I'd hope He understands, if I'm wrong.

[TrustAndObey]

That's exactly the kind of thing Honor is having to deal with too Sarah. Because the person is someone she loves very much, and it's next to impossible to just turn her back on her.

It really is a toss-up because God is clearly against it, but He's not against the PEOPLE into it and that's why Honor is so torn.

You pray for our person and we'll pray for your mom!

[TrustAndObey]

Did anybody else grow up hearing this little proverb:

You don't dance with the Devil
The Devil dances with you.
You don't change the Devil
The Devil changes you.

[ChrisCarol]

When you ask man for answers you get many and you still are not certain of the right way.

When you ask God you will know that the answer is right.

Proverbs 3:5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

When you ask God you need to be prepared for His Answer and it might not seem right to you just like Abraham:

Genesis 22

2And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

May God give you understanding

[honorthesabbath]

I have another question about a serious matter. Is it even remotely possible to claim to be a Christian and be demon possessed at the same time? Doesn't even scripture tell us that this condition is impossible?

Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Doesn't satan try to deceive with 'sweet' words?

[k4c]

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; "Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate," says the Lord. "And I will be a father to you.

The thought that is being portrayed here in these verses is not to be yoked or bound together by some sort of an agreement such as in business partnerships or by marriage.

Of course if you are already married you stay married for you don't know if your light will change your spouse. If not, nine out of ten times, the unbleiving spouse will leave you.

How can two walk together lest they both agree.

When we try to be a light with those outside of the faith we are not walking in agreement with them, as a matter of fact, we may be a burden to them. We become a party pooper to them and my find ourselves not being invited to the parties.

Just continue to be a light house to them by word and deed and maybe, by God's grace, He may grant them repentence.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I have another question about a serious matter. Is it even remotely possible to claim to be a Christian and be demon possessed at the same time? Doesn't even scripture tell us that this condition is impossible?

Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Doesn't satan try to deceive with 'sweet' words?



Hi Honor,

I'd say yes, it's very possible. Was Paul not a very devoted Jew, even though He persecuted and killed many of Jesus' followers? Yet, God didn't give up on Him. I think that it's possible for someone to fully believe they are following God, even Christ, and be being lead astray by Satan. That's one of the strongest temptations Satan has against us, in my opinion.

Somewhere in the NT (I need to learn these verses better. lol), I know it says that a true prophet is one who confesses Christ as savior. I think this is just the tip of the iceburg, though. In my experience I have met those who claim to be Christians but may be wrong (according to what I understand of scripture) due to ignorance. Even many in new age or wicca can be this way. The Lord saved me from that ignorance, too. :)

However, watch for those who know what scripture says and still don't follow it. Either they twist it grossly (to the point it confuses the plan of salvation), or they actually start looking for holes in scripture - claiming the Bible isn't all true. Those are dangerous, sometimes.

I'm not sure if I answered your question fully, so let me know. :) I'm very very experienced in this area. lol

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Sarah--thanks for your input and yes--it was helpful.

I guess I have a real big problem with someone who would praise satan and then in the next post call themselves a Christian. This just seems so hypocritical to me.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Believe me, I know what you mean. It can be frustrating to see/hear - and sometimes can be very heart breaking too.

One of the biggest problems I have is trying to remind myself not to judge, though. God knows what is going on in their minds and heart when they praise Satan, He understands their reasoning better than we can. Still, though, I don't think it's something we should have to listen to lying down. There's a level of tact needed, but we should at least voice (in a loving way, of course) that we really don't feel comfortable hearing these kinds of remarks in our presence. That it offends and hurts us, and to ask for the person to please refrain from it while around us. If they refuse, at that point you can't say you didn't try. ;)

[honorthesabbath]

Sarah--I can excuse a young person who has never heard the gospel message or even understood it. With Harry Potter and Oprah--lol--pushing new age ideas unto these kids, it is understandable that they would succumb.

But what about adults who claimed to have known the love and salvation of Christ that turn to love satan, the arch-enemy of our Lord and Saviour? This is the situation that I just cannot grasp. Wasn't this the very reason we are told that Saul was destroyed? He turned away from obedience to God and then sought out one who had a familiar spirit.

So here is the question. Do we invite those evil spirits into our lives or are they uninvited intruders? Or both?

[Hazel05]

I am surprised at your religious intolerance. I am a Wiccan and I come here not to fight but to try and see your side of things. I DO NOT believe in the devil and I DO NOT worship Demons. They do not exsist in our religion. I am not an immoral person I live a good clean life. I live by good values. I work hard and I pay my way in society. I do charity work and live by the belief that I should treat others how I would like to be treated. My religion is not skyclad dancing with the devil. I follow the cycle of the year and respect all around me. I guess that while you worship the creator a wiccan would worship the creation.

I really hope that some reasoned discussion can take place. I find it really hurtful tha I have bothered to find out about Christianity and am yet to find someone that has actually bothered to find out about mine.

Thank you

[TrustAndObey]

I am surprised at your religious intolerance. I am a Wiccan and I come here not to fight but to try and see your side of things. I DO NOT believe in the devil and I DO NOT worship Demons. They do not exsist in our religion. I am not an immoral person I live a good clean life. I live by good values. I work hard and I pay my way in society. I do charity work and live by the belief that I should treat others how I would like to be treated. My religion is not skyclad dancing with the devil. I follow the cycle of the year and respect all around me. I guess that while you worship the creator a wiccan would worship the creation.

I really hope that some reasoned discussion can take place. I find it really hurtful tha I have bothered to find out about Christianity and am yet to find someone that has actually bothered to find out about mine.

Thank you

Hazel, my husband was Wiccan for several years, so I know quite a bit about the belief system. It doesn't agree with Christianity, and we sometimes discuss other belief systems (even within Christianity) and why WE feel they do not jive with sciptures.

It wasn't meant to be a slam towards any person in particular, ever.

I'm sure you are a very good person and you probably keep the same commandments we do (well 9 of them anyway) without even realizing it (I know my husband sure did).

Jesus is not part of your faith, but He is very much a part of ours. We aren't pointing fingers when we discuss a subject found in scripture...we're just discussing.

Please do not be offended. This is a Christian message board so obviously what is discussed here won't be in tune with what you believe. For instance, we believe one of satan's greatest deceptions is for people to believe he doesn't even exist.

[Hazel05]

Thank you so much for your reply. I guess its the part that we dance with the devil and invite demons into our lives when they aren't even part of our beliefs that upsets me most. I know that the Christian Devil is a hideous, evil, frightful creature and to be associated with that makes me shudder and feel sick.

I wouldn't say I was offended, I find people get offended far too easily these days and it isn't helpful when trying to get to a conclusion.

There are just alot of misconceptions about Wicca and I have read alot of them on here. We really aren't evil.

[TrustAndObey]

Thank you so much for your reply. I guess its the part that we dance with the devil and invite demons into our lives when they aren't even part of our beliefs that upsets me most. I know that the Christian Devil is a hideous, evil, frightful creature and to be associated with that makes me shudder and feel sick.

That particular part of the discussion wasn't centered around Wicca, though, if you'll notice. We had gone into the topic of demon possession, etc.

Wicca is almost the photo negative of Christianity in a lot of ways. You've chosen a different "who/what" to worship and you claim the devil doesn't exist. Both things are very important to Christians, since some are slammed back and forth with demons, etc. Those Christians, I believe, would be the first ones to tell you they disagree that he (satan) doesn't exist.

And, to be technical, there's some verses in scripture that talk about satan being exposed and people basically saying "That's IT?!!" :) THAT made us tremble?

I read the book, God wins. :clap:

I wouldn't say I was offended, I find people get offended far too easily these days and it isn't helpful when trying to get to a conclusion.

There are just alot of misconceptions about Wicca and I have read alot of them on here. We really aren't evil.

Oh I know there are a lot of misconceptions about Wicca since my husband was heavily into that for a very long time. Some parts of it seemed pretty refreshing to me, like taking person accountability instead of saying "the devil made me do it".

It's just a different faith than what we have, so we aren't going to agree. I know you COMPLETELY understand that.

Our discussions aren't a hit about the people that agree with it, it's just about the "it" itself.

[Hazel05]

I certainly respect your views and thank you for discussing them with me.

In hindsight my first post shouldn't have been about defending my religion. So I apologise for that.

Once again thank you.

[magisterfaust]

I created this thread earlier in the day, but when I came back to see if any comments were left--it was GONE! So, I thought perhaps I'd try again. Maybe the cyber monster ate it?

As I stated before, I have a bit of a dilemma.

The bible seems to say that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. But it also goes on to tell us NOT to have company with darkness.
So what do we do with those around us who are professed witches (Wiccan's) and possessed by demons? Should we befriend and fellowship with them? Invite them into our groups?

Where is the line drawn between sharing the deliverance of Christ with them and 'hanging out' with them?

Does anyone of our members here have any advice?




Are you implying that all wiccans are possessed by Demons?

[Hazel05]

Are you implying that all wiccans are possessed by Demons?
Well this is what I was wondering because I'm certainly not.

[magisterfaust]

Well this is what I was wondering because I'm certainly not.
I don't think I am. I did once, no, twice, have a doppelganger though

[Hazel05]

Is a doppleganger not just someone that looks like you? Nothing sinister about that, is there?

[magisterfaust]

They can be very sinister. Mine played tricks on me. Nothing dangerous, but quite sinister. Phone calls... I have thought of every possible solution to what else it could have been always come back to my doppelganger.
I did lead a "left hand path" life for a while, so I guess I had it coming to me.
I gotta sign off for a while, be back soon.

[honorthesabbath]

Are you implying that all wiccans are possessed by Demons?

Lol--no--I did not imply that Wiccans are demon possessed. I did mean though that those who adhere to such teachings ARE playing with demons. From a Christian stand point--Wiccans and other pagan religions are in concert with satanism. I know that they say no--but thats the great deception they are involved with.

The main reason for this thread however deals too with those who claim to be Christians and yet make the claim that they are demon possessed. I don't see how the two can be possible.

[TrustAndObey]

I tried to follow a whole thread about this subject yesterday, Honor, and I left with less "answers" than I thought I had before reading it! Seriously, it was very confusing.

I was on my way back home today after taking my oldest son to a friend's house, and I was thinking what a beautiful day it was and how thankful I was that my car was driving okay, my children are healthy, etc (basically I was in a praise-ful prayer) and all of a sudden a little dog started running into the road I was on.

I yelled an expletive as I closed my eyes and swurved, cringing from the thought of hearing the "thump" of hitting him (I missed him though).

I haven't done that in a very long time, but when I was hit with a scary moment....BAM!

I thought at that moment, certainly, that darkness was in me. A darkness I haven't seen surface in a really long time. I was in the middle of PRAYER too which makes it even more disheartening to deal with.

To top it all off, my 5-year-old (Pete Repeat) said "Ohhhmmmm, I heard you say a bad word!"

I just can't get over that two-second incident. I can't help but think "what if I had gone off the road and hit a tree and those would've been my LAST words?!"

I draw on experiences like that one when I think about questions such as yours, because I know there's darkness in me, but it's still a shocker when I realize I don't always have control even if it's for a split second, you know?

My pat answer to your question is "I really don't know."

[TrustAndObey]

And, if you've been to my thread titled "what is "it"?", it was one of those rare moments when I didn't get any kind of an inkling that something bad was about to happen!

[magisterfaust]

Lol--no--I did not imply that Wiccans are demon possessed. I did mean though that those who adhere to such teachings ARE playing with demons. From a Christian stand point--Wiccans and other pagan religions are in concert with satanism. I know that they say no--but thats the great deception they are involved with.

The main reason for this thread however deals too with those who claim to be Christians and yet make the claim that they are demon possessed. I don't see how the two can be possible.
Thanx for clearing that up. I didn't think that you were implying that all wiccans are possessed. I beg to differ with regards to "playing with Demons" though.

I have an interest in wicca, and I see it as communing with Godesses and gods who are anything but demons

[TrustAndObey]

Thanx for clearing that up. I didn't think that you were implying that all wiccans are possessed. I beg to differ with regards to "playing with Demons" though.

I have an interest in wicca, and I see it as communing with Godesses and gods who are anything but demons

Magisterfaust, can you see that if we believe in a Creator God that doesn't HAVE a Goddess, that your faith involves communing with something NOT of God?

This is a Christian message board and the views here won't be what Wiccans would be comfortable with. That's just a given.

I'm sure there are many Wiccan message boards out there where Christians try to steamroll in and blast their beliefs all over the place, and that probably isn't appreciate on those boards I'd imagine.

[Sheeple]

I created this thread earlier in the day, but when I came back to see if any comments were left--it was GONE! So, I thought perhaps I'd try again. Maybe the cyber monster ate it?

As I stated before, I have a bit of a dilemma.

The bible seems to say that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. But it also goes on to tell us NOT to have company with darkness.
So what do we do with those around us who are professed witches (Wiccan's) and possessed by demons? Should we befriend and fellowship with them? Invite them into our groups?

Where is the line drawn between sharing the deliverance of Christ with them and 'hanging out' with them?

Does anyone of our members here have any advice?




The quick answer here is in the definition of fellowship. In context, it means that you don't embrace them in spiritual ecclesiastical fellowship as you would your christian brothers and sisters; however we would love them and demonstrate Christ's love to them whether or not they turn to christ.

[Jim Larmore]

My son is involved in wicca. I have had several long conversatiions with him about his religion. I've learned alot and the bottom line is that wicca is not all bad, not by a long shot. There are a lot of prejudices about wiccans based on misinformation or mistrust. I'm not saying what they believe is right at all, on the contrary, what they believe is clearly wrong but I can see how many get allured into it. It has many of the trappings of modern day magic and mysticism coupled with ancient mystic cultural practices. There is dark and white magic and they think that what you put out comes back to you 7 times over.

The bottom line is wiccans believe that spiritual energy abounds in all of nature and the universe and that given enought time and effort anyone can become like a god of sorts. They don't believe in Jesus Christ as the savior of the world but only think He was an ancient mag who did a lot of good in His life and performed a lot of magical things that healed etc. They also say they don't believe in satan either but I have trouble believing them on that one. Many wiccans have a satanic bible and practice a form of voodoo with little dolls they stick pens into etc.

I have mixed feelings about this stuff. I think satan has done a good job in helping perverted men to created a false form of religion to side track some into a cultish practice that is very powerful and deceptive. In the end those involved in wicca after being Christian will be lost if they maintain their course. It scares me to see my son involved in this. I ask that you all pray for him. I love him even if he is a wiccan.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Avonia]

Wiccans and other pagan religions are in concert with satanism.
Clearly you have strong views on the matter. How many in-depth conversations you have had with Wiccans?

What from these conversations gave you the idea that a nature-based religion has anything to do with Satanism?

[Avonia]

they think that what you put out comes back to you 7 times over.
You are referring to the Wiccan three-fold law - that whatever you put out comes back three-fold. I've never heard of a seven-fold return.

There is a reference in Christianity to the 7-fold return of spirits (Matthew 12)

The three fold return is quite similar to sowing and reaping in the Christian tradition and Karma in Indian religions.

[TrustAndObey]

Clearly you have strong views on the matter. How many in-depth conversations you have had with Wiccans?

What from these conversations gave you the idea that a nature-based religion has anything to do with Satanism?

You quoted Honor, but I would like to throw in a comment if it's okay.

My husband was Wiccan for a very long time, which included 3 years into our marriage. I had many in-depth discussions with him about the belief system.

It's an interesting question that you asked, because according to scripture, not believing in Jesus Christ *is* a form of satanism. You can only serve ONE master. If it's not Christ, it's satan.

One doesn't have to worship satan or even believe he exists. The fact that they deny the Son is choosing this day whom they will serve, according to scripture.

I'm well aware that my words are like nails on a chalk board to someone that isn't Christian, but hey....that's just how it is and I don't make excuses for it.

That being said, I really enjoy talking with Wiccans and I wish I was 1/32nd as good at briding the "gap" as my husband is. However, I don't know how to relate as well as he does since he does have a history that includes that in the background.

[TrustAndObey]

I hear ya Jim! I did learn what about the religion drew my husband in.

He decided to seek out Christ during a crisis and I'll never forget him saying "can you tell me about your God, because mine sure isn't doing anything for me right now."

That's when I learned I knew very, very little about God.

My husband and I learned together, actually, and it was an awesome experience.

My husband asked our Lord to be his Savior on our friend's back deck in the middle of winter in Colorado. It was beautiful.

I don't always pray for a hedge around the people I love anymore, because I know from experience that something pretty bad has to happen to get some people to look up.

You never know how God will speak to your son, so just keep praying.

My husband says to this day "you cannot escape a praying mother".

I'm sure the same is true for dads. :)

[Avonia]

not believing in Jesus Christ *is* a form of satanism.
Are you suggesting Jews are satanists? Is this really where you want to go?

[Hazel05]

This is so interesting. So basically because I don't believe in Jesus then I have to worship the devil in your religion. So basically Christianity is like the Muslim faith Islam where non believers are infidel.

As with any faith there are those that wish to spoil that faith. There are some Wiccans that believe they can change the weather, or perform magickal workings to change the world around them but they are not real Wiccan's in my opinion. The world shouldn't change for them but they should move and change with the world. Also not all Wiccan's believe in dieties, Gods and Goddesses.

I have never come across pins in dolls like a voodoo doll (although that is a misrepresentation too as those who believe in voodoo don't use dolls either).

[magisterfaust]

Magisterfaust, can you see that if we believe in a Creator God that doesn't HAVE a Goddess, that your faith involves communing with something NOT of God?

This is a Christian message board and the views here won't be what Wiccans would be comfortable with. That's just a given.

I'm sure there are many Wiccan message boards out there where Christians try to steamroll in and blast their beliefs all over the place, and that probably isn't appreciate on those boards I'd imagine.


You seem quite comfortable to discuss wicca, witchcraft...call it what you will, but uncomfortable when someone pops up to defend the "craft".
What are you afraid of?


You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.

[honorthesabbath]

Avonia wrote: Clearly you have strong views on the matter. How many in-depth conversations you have had with Wiccans?

What from these conversations gave you the idea that a nature-based religion has anything to do with Satanism?



My son WAS a Wiccan (he is a dedicated Christian now) and he and I had several conversations about it. I also read Bucklands book on witchcraft (well--most of it--I found it very childish and inaccurate AND mostly foolish). Oh yes-he had some good recipes for natural healing, but the bible beat him to that by thousands of years.

So yes--I have more than a cursory understanding of Wicca.

But I must warn you at this point, that it is against CF rules to promote any other religion here but Christianity. I won't do it--but someone might report you if they feel you are doing that.

As Lainie mentioned in her above post, according to scripture, witchcraft is of the evil one. I know you may not agree with that, but--lol--here is the basis of the ages old conflict between beliefs--right?

[Hazel05]

You seem quite comfortable to discuss wicca, witchcraft...call it what you will, but uncomfortable when someone pops up to defend the "craft".
What are you afraid of?


You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.

Good point.

I used to be Christian but when you really look into it it just falls apart. Even the bible. Its man made, written by man and re-written time and time again. Also not all the books of the bible made it in like the Gospel of Thomas, of course Thomas writings are damaging to the faith and therefore they won't add them. Thomas noted things Jesus said like:
Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

[Hazel05]

Its certainly not promotion of another religion, its purely trying to find out why our religion is so misrepresented.

Unfortunately this discussion has been turned into a childish brawl. Saying we can't promote our religion is childish because no where is there any promotion. I am a peace loving person and find your attitudes on here a real shame. This is suppose to be a debate forum and when any form of debate goes to take place you threaten us with being reported.

Magisterfaust is asking a perfectly resonable question and yet it is clearly too difficult for you to answer. This wasn't about who's religion and beliefs are the true ones but why you felt that all Wiccans danced with the devil and were evil people cast aside to damnation.

[TrustAndObey]

Are you suggesting Jews are satanists? Is this really where you want to go?

I did? Where?

Let's go there....I know several people of Jewish bloodline that are Christian. At the moment they accepted Christ as their Savior, they became Christian. It's exactly the same as an Italian, or a Irishman becoming a Christian.

"Jews" can refer to a bloodline and a religion, so you cannot make a blanket statement like that.

Besides, I didn't say it. I cannot take credit for writing the Bible.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

Pouncing on a few people that defend scripture is no way to get them to soften to your religion. I wouldn't go steamrolling onto a Wiccan message board.

In fact, the Wiccan message isn't going to be highly regarded on this Christian message board, and if someone felt differently, I'm sorry that we disappointed you.

You can clear up misunderstandings about the Wiccan religion, but the second you try to recruit or condemn people here for what they believe/defend, you really did cross the line.

1 Cor 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

[Avonia]

My son WAS a Wiccan (he is a dedicated Christian now) and he and I had several conversations about it. I also read Bucklands book on witchcraft (well--most of it--I found it very childish and inaccurate AND mostly foolish). Oh yes-he had some good recipes for natural healing, but the bible beat him to that by thousands of years.

So yes--I have more than a cursory understanding of Wicca.

But I must warn you at this point, that it is against CF rules to promote any other religion here but Christianity. I won't do it--but someone might report you if they feel you are doing that.

As Lainie mentioned in her above post, according to scripture, witchcraft is of the evil one. I know you may not agree with that, but--lol--here is the basis of the ages old conflict between beliefs--right?
There is nothing in my post that either condemns or promotes Wicca. I'm not sure why you are bringing up CF rules. I was responding to Jim's post.

I'm trying to understand why you are associating a nature religion with satan. At face value, it seems like a gross misrepresentation. Unless you are with Trust in suggesting that any religion other than Christianity is a form of satanism.

[Avonia]

Pouncing on a few people that defend scripture is no way to get them to soften to your religion. I wouldn't go steamrolling onto a Wiccan message board.

In fact, the Wiccan message isn't going to be highly regarded on this Christian message board, and if someone felt differently, I'm sorry that we disappointed you.

You can clear up misunderstandings about the Wiccan religion, but the second you try to recruit or condemn people here for what they believe/defend, you really did cross the line.

1 Cor 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.




Trust, are you mistaking another post for mine? I've pounced on you in no way. I simply asked you a question - I was curious if you were really suggesting that Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Hindus and other religions/philosophies were a form of satanism. That's a strong statement.

[Hazel05]

I know this forum is CHRISTIAN but where better to try and find out about CHRISTIANITY than here. I thought you were suppose to spread the word rather than act all self righteous.

They are simple questions written with respect, shame the answers aren't.

It is ridiculous saying that you if you don't follow Jesus then you follow the Devil. I bet their are times when you sin and therefore don't follow Jesus does that make you a devil worshipper? Like the born again Christians I work with who smoke, and drink. They tell smutty jokes, they swear, and are generally a bad advert for Christians. Does this mean that they are worshippers of the devil during these times, because that is not following Jesus?

[magisterfaust]

I know this forum is CHRISTIAN but where better to try and find out about CHRISTIANITY than here. I thought you were suppose to spread the word rather than act all self righteous.

They are simple questions written with respect, shame the answers aren't.

It is ridiculous saying that you if you don't follow Jesus then you follow the Devil. I bet their are times when you sin and therefore don't follow Jesus does that make you a devil worshipper? Like the born again Christians I work with who smoke, and drink. They tell smutty jokes, they swear, and are generally a bad advert for Christians. Does this mean that they are worshippers of the devil during these times, because that is not following Jesus?

Couldn't have said that better if i tried.


The man who on monday beats his wife. Tuesday beats his child. Wednesday he gets drunk. Thursday he steals from his brother. Friday he goes to a strip club. Saturday he he beats his wife, child, steals money from his brother and goes to a strip club and uses the stolen money to get drunk. Sunday he goes to confession at church. Monday he beats his wife... and thestory continues..........

[TrustAndObey]

Trust, are you mistaking another post for mine? I've pounced on you in no way. I simply asked you a question - I was curious if you were really suggesting that Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Hindus and other religions/philosophies were a form of satanism. That's a strong statement.

Why did you edit your original post?

It wasn't a question at all originally. You made a statement that I had just called all Jews satanists...with a closing remark of "unbelievable".

I get e-mail alerts when someone has replied to a thread I'm subscribed to. Here's what you said before your post was edited:

You have just said that Jews are satanists. Unbelievable.

Buddhists, Muslims, Agnostics, Hindus and other religions/philosophies weren't included in that statement at all.

I hope anyone that happens by will see that this was a deliberate attempt to twist my words and I also hope that I cleared up that I do not believe all Jews are satanists.

Perhaps pouncing wasn't the best word, but I don't really know how else to describe someone (or a group) coming in and turning a thread about demon-possessed Christians into a thread exclusively about wiccans...then misrepresenting an answer given and editing a post to make it look a little more "friendly". Then, last but not least, trying to make me feel guilty for what the Christian religion teaches.

Can a demon possess the life of a Christian person...that is the question. Wiccans can't answer that question.

I do realize the thread got a little off-topic and included wicca, but that's because this thread is primarily about a young teenage girl dabbling in wicca. Two months ago she claimed there was no God at all (but she believed in ghosts). Now there's a god and goddess and she's posting the wiccan bible on her myspace page.

I don't expect you to know all that because it isn't spelled out in the OP, but I know who Honorthesabbath is referring to.

Do I believe other religions are of satan?

You bet I do.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He is our Savior, and any religion that promotes getting to God ANY other way, is a counterfeit of the truth.

There, I said it. That is 100% what I believe and I will not apologize for it.

Wiccans already know this. This is just an attempt for a debate and not to clear up any misunderstandings we might have about wicca.

I find it ironic that a faith that doesn't even believe satan exists has members that freak out so badly when someone mentions not serving the one true God is serving the wrong master.

This would be an excellent question for the General Theology forum. The consensus among all Christians, even of so many other denominations, is that Jesus Christ is our only hope! :thumbsup::wave:;):clap:

[Avonia]

Why did you edit your original post

To give you another opportunity to clarify. Asking a question seemed better in my efforts to understand your position on this issue. I wasn't 100% sure you were saying what you appeared to be saying.

Buddhists, Muslims, Agnostics, Hindus and other religions/philosophies weren't included in that statement at all.

But you clearly stated this:

It's an interesting question that you asked, because according to scripture, not believing in Jesus Christ *is* a form of satanism.

You just said not believing in Jesus is a form of Satanism. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists don't believe in Jesus in this way. Since they are "not believing in Jesus Christ" it follows that you are suggesting they are participating in a "form of Satanism."

I find it ironic that a faith that doesn't even believe satan exists has members that freak out so badly when someone mentions not serving the one true God is serving the wrong master

This should not be a surprise to you since Christians have burned pagans at the stake for being followers of Satan.

There could be nothing more relevant than this issue in addressing the OP since it appeared that Honor started with the assumption that Wicca is correlated with darkness.

[morningstar2651]

I've had my eye on this thread for a while, but I've kept out of the discussion because I'm not an adventist. However, I think now is a good time for me to speak up.

Neither the "Us versus them" mentality nor viewing our fellows as enemies is helping anyone in this thread.

My son WAS a Wiccan (he is a dedicated Christian now) and he and I had several conversations about it. I also read Bucklands book on witchcraft (well--most of it--I found it very childish and inaccurate AND mostly foolish). Oh yes-he had some good recipes for natural healing, but the bible beat him to that by thousands of years.

So yes--I have more than a cursory understanding of Wicca.I agree with you about Buckland's book. He tries too hard to portray Wicca as an "ancient" modern religion, he downplays the criticism of Margaret Murray, he trivializes the Wiccan Rede with his mundane exposition of it, he buys into Uri Geller's magic tricks, he focuses too much on charms and superstitions and not enough on worship, etc.

The problem is that one book alone, even a great book, isn't enough to get more than a cursory understanding of Wicca. "One book wonders" are generally derided as "insta-Wiccans" or "fluff bunnies" within Pagan circles.

I can't speak for them, but I think that the other Pagans that popped up into the thread did so to attempt to correct some misconceptions that have popped up in the thread. I sincerely doubt they have come here with the intent of converting some traditional adventists. :)

[Avonia]

Neither the "Us versus them" mentality nor viewing our fellows as enemies is helping anyone in this thread.
The premise of the thread demonstrates in the microcosm what is ailing us in the macrocosm - dividing the children of God.

Belief has proven to be a poor indicator of whether a person is working for light or darkness.

We are called to bring Light to the world - not to just the parts we find familiar and comfortable.

[Hazel05]

I can't speak for them, but I think that the other Pagans that popped up into the thread did so to attempt to correct some misconceptions that have popped up in the thread. I sincerely doubt they have come here with the intent of converting some traditional adventists. :)

This is exactly why I posted because I felt that there are alot of misconceptions and I truely thought it would help the original situation.

What surprises me is that people here have come across Wicca in their own families and are yet still misinformed.

I was just trying to bring a little religious tolerance but clearly this is a site where people can be openly discriminative as long as its not to Christianity.

[Jim Larmore]

This is so interesting. So basically because I don't believe in Jesus then I have to worship the devil in your religion. So basically Christianity is like the Muslim faith Islam where non believers are infidel.

If you look at it from a wholistic perspective, there are only two spiritual forces in the universe. The for God or good and those for satan and evil. We all have to fall within those two camps in some form or fashion. You don't have to worship the devil to be in his camp and eventually loose your eternal life. All you have to do is turn away from the only One who can truely save you.


As with any faith there are those that wish to spoil that faith. There are some Wiccans that believe they can change the weather, or perform magickal workings to change the world around them but they are not real Wiccan's in my opinion. The world shouldn't change for them but they should move and change with the world. Also not all Wiccan's believe in dieties, Gods and Goddesses.

I don't know enough about wicca to speak intelligently about it. All I know is what my son has told me and what I have observed with him. He did tell me of an occasion where a guy who was a leader of his coven went out and commanded the wind to blow and it immediately did. Co-incidence? Don't know for sure. Bottom line for me is this. There's a lot of stuff out there that I and no one else knows much about and for me to say one way or the other what is or isn't real would be pretty arrogant.


I have never come across pins in dolls like a voodoo doll (although that is a misrepresentation too as those who believe in voodoo don't use dolls either).

Sounds like you don't know a lot about this stuff as well.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Jim Larmore]

You are referring to the Wiccan three-fold law - that whatever you put out comes back three-fold. I've never heard of a seven-fold return.

There is a reference in Christianity to the 7-fold return of spirits (Matthew 12)

The three fold return is quite similar to sowing and reaping in the Christian tradition and Karma in Indian religions.

I may have got it wrong when my son told me about this. I thought it was seven times but it may have been three. What is interesting if you think about it is that it is three. The number three is very significant in the Bible.

God Bless

Jim Larmore

[Jim Larmore]

I hear ya Jim! I did learn what about the religion drew my husband in.

He decided to seek out Christ during a crisis and I'll never forget him saying "can you tell me about your God, because mine sure isn't doing anything for me right now."

That's when I learned I knew very, very little about God.

My husband and I learned together, actually, and it was an awesome experience.

My husband asked our Lord to be his Savior on our friend's back deck in the middle of winter in Colorado. It was beautiful.

I don't always pray for a hedge around the people I love anymore, because I know from experience that something pretty bad has to happen to get some people to look up.

You never know how God will speak to your son, so just keep praying.

My husband says to this day "you cannot escape a praying mother".

I'm sure the same is true for dads. :)

Thankyou sister, I will continue to pray for him and I ask you pray for him as well. I know you don't know him but he's a good kid ( 26 years old ) just deceived and walking down the wrong path.

God Bless you
Jim Larmore

[Avonia]

What is interesting if you think about it is that it is three. The number three is very significant in the Bible.

God Bless

Jim Larmore

So true. I love the symbolism in numbers in the Bible. But in the spirit of not derailing Honor's thread - maybe that would be another interesting thread.

In your story, it is heartening that you are in conversation and relationship with your son. What a wonderful, and all to rare, thing! :)

[morningstar2651]

I don't know enough about wicca to speak intelligently about it. All I know is what my son has told me and what I have observed with him. He did tell me of an occasion where a guy who was a leader of his coven went out and commanded the wind to blow and it immediately did. Co-incidence? Don't know for sure. Bottom line for me is this. There's a lot of stuff out there that I and no one else knows much about and for me to say one way or the other what is or isn't real would be pretty arrogant.This is a prime example of a post hoc fallacy (http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html). :doh:

He didn't magically command the wind. That's not how wind works (http://blog.sciseek.com/2008/04/07/wind-energy/). Warm air that has been heated by the sun rises, and cooler air rushes to fill the warm air's previous place.

The real question is to what purpose would he claim to control the wind, other than to garner the respect and admiration of others -- respect he hasn't earned. This coven leader sounds like a bad teacher. He has given your son misinformation and lied to him. If said coven leader is under the age of 18, then he wasn't initiated -- he took up the title of high priest without formal training. That would be like someone claiming to be an ordained minister without any training or credentials.

[mva1985]

It is ridiculous saying that you if you don't follow Jesus then you follow the Devil. I bet their are times when you sin and therefore don't follow Jesus does that make you a devil worshipper? Like the born again Christians I work with who smoke, and drink. They tell smutty jokes, they swear, and are generally a bad advert for Christians. Does this mean that they are worshippers of the devil during these times, because that is not following Jesus?

Fortunately God will be making the final decision on who is saved and who is not.

But as a Christian we are taught from the Bible by Christ Himself that He is the only way to be saved. What He decides to do with the people that had little to no exposure to the Bible and Christian teachings is again up to God.

One of the themes throughout the Bible is that we are to worship the Creator and not the created. Also, that there is only One True God. So when people are worshiping the earth or the moon or sun - my belief tells me that is wrong.

For example Daniel's three friends could have very easily bowed down to the golden image and avoided the fiery furnace but they had been given strict instruction by God not to worship graven images and being true to God they did not bow down.

The Bible is full of instruction on what we are to do when it comes to dealing with "darkness." Flee from temptation!

[Avonia]

Hi MVA - it's been a while! :)

But as a Christian we are taught from the Bible by Christ Himself that He is the only way to be saved.
Some people make a distinction between what Jesus said and what is reported in the Bible. But I understand your take on this.

So when people are worshiping the earth or the moon or sun - my belief tells me that is wrong.
A different way of saying this is that nature religions seek the divine through the direct experience of the natural. This also shows up in Celtic Christianity and Shamanic Judaism.

Returning to the OP, it's important in the "neighbors" conversation that we take more into account than just a person's religion. And that they do the same for us.

[mva1985]

Hi MVA - it's been a while! :)


Some people make a distinction between what Jesus said and what is reported in the Bible. But I understand your take on this.


A different way of saying this is that nature religions seek the divine through the direct experience of the natural. This also shows up in Celtic Christianity and Shamanic Judaism.

Returning to the OP, it's important in the "neighbors" conversation that we take more into account than just a person's religion. And that they do the same for us.

As for what Jesus said the Bible is the only thing that I have to go on.

As for the nature religions - walking a very fine line as far as I am concerned. I believe that God and the Godhead are revealed through the observance and experiencing nature, but not worshiping nature.

For instance this morning while I was on break at work I went outside and laid down and look up at the sky. Blue sky with white wispy clouds and green trees. What a great God to have created just those simple colors for our pleasure. Nature reveals God but nature is not to be worshiped.

[Avonia]

I believe that God and the Godhead are revealed through the observance and experiencing nature, but not worshiping nature.
If we all spent more time doing this, we would know more about our Creator. This is why everyone should have at least eight weeks of vacation a year - two weeks per quarter! :)

[mva1985]

If we all spent more time doing this, we would know more about our Creator. This is why everyone should have at least eight weeks of vacation a year - two weeks per quarter! :)

On this we agree. :thumbsup:

[sentipente]

Fortunately God will be making the final decision on who is saved and who is not.
The act of salvation always follows the decision as to who should be saved. That decision was made a long time ago and He decided that the human race needed to be saved.

[honorthesabbath]

The act of salvation always follows the decision as to who should be saved. That decision was made a long time ago and He decided that the human race needed to be saved.

Provision has been made for ALL to be saved. But ALL will not take hold of the life preserver.

But lets stay on topic.

[magisterfaust]

Publicly, God is portrayed as some merciful, loving figure on a par with santa clause. Yet under the surface lies this selfish, tantrum prone spoilt hormonal teenager. If he can't get his own way every time, he will bring down destruction upon those who, not only will not play his game, but when they do, refuse to let him win, have the biggest toy, or play the loudest instrument.
Believe in God or be severely punished. __________________

As a baboon cannot see his red bottom, so a man cannot see his shortcomings:


If at first you don't succeed...Lower your standards

You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.

men wil never be free until the last king has been strangled with the enntrails of the last priest.

[sentipente]

Provision has been made for ALL to be saved. But ALL will not take hold of the life preserver.

But lets stay on topic.

What a pity we don't believe that provision was made for AL to be lost. What kind of justice imposes Adam's sin on me but does not grant me his salvation? What kind of God have we created?

[magisterfaust]

What a pity we don't believe that provision was made for AL to be lost. What kind of justice imposes Adam's sin on me but does not grant me his salvation? What kind of God have we created?


What do you mean... What kind of God have WE created?????? Is that an admission that God is man made??

As a baboon cannot see his red bottom, so a man cannot see his shortcomings:


If at first you don't succeed...Lower your standards

You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.

[sentipente]

What do you mean... What kind of God have WE created?????? Is that an admission that God is man made??

The unjust God so many are advocating is certainly man made.

[magisterfaust]

The unjust God so many are advocating is certainly man made.

:thumbsup: you got that right

[honorthesabbath]

sentipente;47789767]What a pity we don't believe that provision was made for AL to be lost.

Al who?

What kind of justice imposes Adam's sin on me but does not grant me his salvation? What kind of God have we created?


1.It's called the law of genetics
2. Salvation HAS been granted IF you take hold of it.

1Cor.15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

[sentipente]

Al who?



1.It's called the law of genetics
2. Salvation HAS been granted IF you take hold of it.

1Cor.15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
That was ALL. Interesting you believe that sin is a genetic disorder.

[honorthesabbath]

That was ALL. Interesting you believe that sin is a genetic disorder.

And I find it interesting that you didn't know this given the text I gave you.

[sentipente]

And I find it interesting that you didn't know this given the text I gave you.

Hey. You may be in line for a Nobel prize in medicine. Go for it.