How do True Believers disagree on scripture meaning when led by the same Spirit?

[Nadiine]

How are there so many Christians who disagree on so many scripture teachings and have so many denominations yet are led by the same Holy Spirit?

This isn't including people who claim God but their beliefs actually turn out to be nonChristian in essential doctrines.

This post was offered in reply from another forum I added this thread to:

I consider...one of the reasons is...as human beings...in a continual battle between the flesh and Spirit...we have a hard time occasionally discerning what is of the Spirit and what is of the flesh.

We rarely desire to consider...perhaps it's our understanding that may be lacking at times.

Kinda like when we read Scripture...and it may seem conflictual at times....

So...we simply choose the Scripture that most agrees with our understanding...and focus full tilt boogie on that...

...rather than simply accepting and trusting that Scripture will never conflict with Scripture and that the Holy Spirit will lead us into understanding...in His perfect timing...according to His good will and purpose.

Many times...when we are confident in our understanding according the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit...

...we have very little patience with those who have not yet reached that understanding...

...particularly when they are quite adamant their understanding is the ONLY understanding to be achieved...:sigh:

Sometimes...we fail to consider...that perhaps the Holy Spirit has revealed the same truth to each believer...however on a different level...

The thing that really saddens me at times is...for some reason...many of us seem to consider it's OUR job to correct others...

IMHO...we are to share our faith...share the Word...and allow the Holy Spirit to do HIS job in the hearts and minds of others.

I totally love what a sister mentioned not long ago...sometimes we simply need to let go...and let God.

This is applicable not only in our ministry to others...but also in our own personal walk.

[Hentenza]

I disagree. When you consider mainstream Christian churches, we agree with each others theology more than we disagree. Consider the old argument of apostolic churches versus mainstream protestant churches. The disagreements are mainly about how to worship God not worshiping God. The Holy Spirit works mysteriously and we can't presume to understand it.

[AngelusSax]

In matters of doctrine which is not essential to salvation, I think that the apostle Paul had a very wonderful insight. In his arguments on food sacrificed to idols, he notes that some eat meat regardless of where it came from or its intended purpose, and that is fine, for they do so with a righteous heart (I'm paraphrasing of course here). Others will eat only vegetables.

He then makes a point about no food (and in some manuscripts, nothing [Romans 14, NIV footnote, but I forget the verse right now]) being unclean in and of itself, but if a food is considered unclean by someone, then for them it IS unclean.

The point, I think, is that the Spirit will lead us and convict us of things as necessary. If a believer, or even a denomination, believes that, for example, barring women from ordination is right, then for them it is right, even though for another it is right to allow them in.

We're free to disagree, and we're free to state our own cases as to our positions on anything. But unless the doctrine has direct relevance to salvation, then the Spirit can lead us as necessary. Some people perhaps have a faith of a level that requires the color of purple to be displayed during Lent, and without that their whole faith system might be in jeopardy. The Spirit will not lead them from that until He has moved the believer to a point/level/strength of faith that no longer requires that, and even then only if the person in whom that faith is being worked accepts (or does not reject) it.

Within Lutheran circles, and I'm sure others, the term adiaphora is used to describe things which are, more or less, simple personal choices and of no real consequence within the body of believers, doctrinally speaking. Perhaps Paul's teaching on meat and vegetables, or even the extrapolation into the realm of absolutely anything (apart from the essential faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and the Triune God), is to show us that there's a lot more that is, in all honesty, adiaphora than we like to think.

But again, this is only perhaps. I don't know for sure, but it's my best guess, reasoning, or perhaps mindless rambling, I can think of right now. :)

[Nadiine]

I disagree. When you consider mainstream Christian churches, we agree with each others theology more than we disagree. Consider the old argument of apostolic churches versus mainstream protestant churches. The disagreements are mainly about how to worship God not worshiping God. The Holy Spirit works mysteriously and we can't presume to understand it.
This is true & I agree...

I'm mainly referring more to the denominational type disagreements - such as baptism FOR salvation, mandatory tongues speaking (proving Salvation), "real presence" in communion, Catholic dogmas vs. protestant, Sabbath day observance/SDA's, etc. etc.

I do agree we have more that we agree on than disagree tho.

[Nadiine]

The point, I think, is that the Spirit will lead us and convict us of things as necessary. If a believer, or even a denomination, believes that, for example, barring women from ordination is right, then for them it is right, even though for another it is right to allow them in.

We're free to disagree, and we're free to state our own cases as to our positions on anything. But unless the doctrine has direct relevance to salvation, then the Spirit can lead us as necessary.
I'm just pulling these paragraphs out to ask the question, do you think the Holy Spirit leads 2 different people in 2 different directions on the same issue then?

Is one belief wrong in the case of female ordination? My issue is that, if the bible is emphatic against women holding Pastoral positions, then is the Spirit leading one group to ordinate them and others not to?

It does confuse me somewhat - I tend to think in terms of, in our flawed humanity, we can be wrong and violate the truth in God's word. God isn't necessarily leading us in opposite directions in certain matters.

[MrJim]

Afraid a lot of is that some people are simply wrong~I shudder to consider things I am wrong about but "believe" so strongly that I condemn others because they don't "believe" like I do.

Only thing here is that one can become so...limp that nothing is believed firmly on the chance of being wrong. So a key element is humililty~holding to my beliefs, explaining as well as possible, yet beware of the sin of spiritual condescension, pride and arrogance and being open to continually being taught. I fail often...

[AngelusSax]

I'm just pulling these paragraphs out to ask the question, do you think the Holy Spirit leads 2 different people in 2 different directions on the same issue then?

I think it is a possibility, at the least. My pastor, which is of course an ELCA pastor, does believe that the Holy Spirit can lead different people in different directions. I'm not entirely sure on that, but I myself am open to the possibility.

The reason I'm open to that is that I do know that anyone can take any (or almost any) issue under the sun, take any position on that issue, at any point in the spectrum, and justify it by the Bible some way. I know that women's ordination has strong wording against it, but that's even by the very same apostle who uplifted women as deacons, while saying a deacon must be "the husband of one wife".

I personally firmly believe in women's ordination. But I can see how/why others do not believe so, and while I disagree and will state my case as to why I think I'm right, I remain open the possibility of either being wrong myself, or us both being right.

Yes, we can be wrong in matters. But sometimes we can be right even in disagreement.

If you ever get a chance, I recommend reading "The Gospel According to Moses" by Athol Dickson. The book is about how a Christian man decided that Judaism might have some truth to offer (not in rejecting Jesus as the Messiah though, or course), and attends Chever Torah, a Jewish Bible study (OT only, as would be expected).
He touches on some issues relating to right and wrong, or as I am suggesting, right and right. The point he makes (and again, the book does better than I can right now from memory) is that The Bible seems to have one truth in one passage, and another truth in another, and what we need to do is look for the Truth behind the truths (that is, God behind what is said, not simply what is said).

One illustration is the commandment about idols. We're not to make them. Yet it is contended that, to some degree at least, God commanded an idol be built in the form of a serpent on a pole, and looking at this serpent was supposed to save the Israelites from the snake poison. As it turns out, the people of Chever Torah point out that either the word for pole can also mean God, or that it was representative of Him (not sure which), and while the text says in face-value to look at the serpent, they are really looking at the pole -- at God for their safety. Even when God seems contradictory, and He may even be, the point is to always trust what He says, no matter what.

Abraham knew not to kill. Yet he trusted God when God commanded him to kill his son -- even the son that was supposed to become a great nation! Abraham didn't say "But you said not to kill, and you don't contradict yourself". He simply trusted God (and I bet he had tears in his eyes the entire time doing it.

And let's take some other OT passages. Wiping out entire towns is killing. It's genocide, actually. Now the NT, with Jesus, we have turn the other cheek, minister to our enemies, help them... This is the very same God who once had entire towns destroyed, burned to the ground, ordered the killing of every man, woman, child, and animal in that town.

The point is there are tensions within the Bible. Some are so high in tension they at least seem 100% contradictory. Even if they are, we are to trust God that God knows what God is doing, even if it goes against what we either already know or think we know.

Perhaps that isn't the Spirit leading 2 people to 2 places on 1 issue. Perhaps it's merely our interpretations that do that. But our interpretations, as much as they are ours, have to be at least permitted, if not even coerced, by the Spirit. So, maybe, and again I cannot stress it enough, MAYBE, the Spirit can lead different people to different conclusions on, say, women's ordination. Maybe not.

But the possibility has to be there, I think.

[Nadiine]

Ok, but if God relays 2 opposites as correct, then He's contradicting Himself and promoting what is not true or right essentially, wouldn't that be so?

If God actually DOES command that females are prohibited from Shepherding a church, why is He leading some churches to violate His principle or doctrine that He gave Paul?

I can agree that God could lead people differently in liberties we have as Christians and life decisions that differ, but I can't come to agree this would apply in certain doctrinal issues such as baptism for salvation, ordaining women, etc.

[MrJim]

Ok, but if God relays 2 opposites as correct, then He's contradicting Himself and promoting what is not true or right essentially, wouldn't that be so?

If God actually DOES command that females are prohibited from Shepherding a church, why is He leading some churches to violate His principle or doctrine that He gave Paul?

I can agree that God could lead people differently in liberties we have as Christians and life decisions that differ, but I can't come to agree this would apply in certain doctrinal issues such as baptism for salvation, ordaining women, etc.

Maybe there are compromise issues~sorta like not liking particular candidates but voting for a pro-abortion candidate as lesser of two evils ;) Maybe the women ministers are there because there are no others to serve, so it's the "lesser of two evils"?

[Criada]

I agree with Jim on this one... if there were enough righteous men to lead our churches, perhaps this would never have been an issue.
I am a member of a leadership team of 6, 2 men and 4 women. Ideally, we would not need to be in leadership... but, as in Judges 4, if no man comes forward, God uses a woman... Deborah led Israel, so I do not see a problem with a woman leading a church now.

[AngelusSax]

If God actually DOES command that females are prohibited from Shepherding a church, why is He leading some churches to violate His principle or doctrine that He gave Paul?

First of all, I don't believe He does command that females are prohibited from shepherding a church. I think us, misreading and taking out of context two or three small verses of Scripture while ignoring the overall, do that.

Ok, but if God relays 2 opposites as correct, then He's contradicting Himself and promoting what is not true or right essentially, wouldn't that be so?

I would argue that it is at least an apparent contradiction for the same God who sanctioned genocide and the stoning of any guilty sinner (for certain sins) now says to turn the other cheek and offer forgiveness.

The point is that God will lead us as we need to be led. You raise baptism for salvation and women ordination up as the same thing. Baptism for salvation would be a doctrine, based on its very title, to be seen as essential for salvation, and so that wouldn't be one up for grabs (from their [our] perspective). Whether a woman is ordained or not does not affect the salvation of anyone, it merely affects the efficacy of the Church and living out the Holy Spirit's power, which was bestowed on all Christians at Pentecost, fulfilling Joel's prophecy of both sons and daughters prophesying.

I don't want to get into the specific argument of women ordinations in this thread, but we can start another one if you like for that one. The point about the Spirit, though, is that I remain open to the possibility that, much as I personally dislike it, is that the church gets to decide, and if two different churches decide two different things, then both decisions can be valid ones for the respective churches. This may even go to the individual level as well.

God is bog enough that He may say things to people that sound contradictory, and even if they are, both can still be right because in the end, it's not about positions on issues in and of themselves. Those only serve to progress toward a larger, ultimate reality of God's will being done. If the ultimate conclusion is best reached by two different people having two different stances on the same issue, then that's the way it is. If not, then not.

I'm not saying the Spirit absolutely does say things which are contradictory. I am saying that He can, and if He does, that is His business, and only becomes mine if I'm one of the people being told something that contradicts something else.

[MrJim]

Much of this is a result of self-interpretation~Nadiine reads it one way and AngelusSax reads it another. Each can garner a collegiate of experts to defend their respective position.

Then what? Is there enough humility in these sort of arguments to allow for the possibility of error on one's part or to allow the other grace to proceed? Reminds me of Gameliel's words in Acts:


Acts 5:35 –Acts 5:39 (NKJV)
And he said to them: “Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

Nadiine,
I have wondered the same thing myself. I personally think that the reason is that we are all viewing scripture from our personal demonminational background. We don't just open the bible and see it for the first time without already having predjudices based on what we have been taught by our Pastor or church.

The biggest question for me was..how did all these different denominations get started in the first place? Basically every denomination out there started with one person who saw something in the bible different than what their church was teaching them. Were they being spoken to by the Spirit or not? People would say that the founder of Jehovahs Witnesses or Mormonism WERENT hearing from the Spirit though they thought they were. What about Luther? Calvin? Zwingli? Can they ALL be right? Did they ALL hear from the Spirit or not? Seems impossible that they did all hear from the Spirit.

I think we need to realize that we have a sinful nature and we do things in the flesh and not always in the Spirit. Many people can't discern the difference between what God is saying and what their own mind is saying. (that's how all CULTS get started). So if cults get started that way, then why not denominations as well?

I know that we can't judge others and we don't even know for sure if what WE believe is 100% correct. It is a big concern when talking about something as important as whether Baptism is required for Salvation. Any matter pertaining to Salvation is really important.

I don't think it matters all that much whether women wear skirts, cover their head or preach...they aren't matters of salvation..so i those areas...let people believe what they want and follow that. In matters like Baptism that pertain to Salvation..i don't know the answer and i just hope that Baptism is NOT required or some people are being decieved in a big way and it could mean their eternal damnation..thats horrible. Thankfully God is loving and merciful and we just need to trust that he is less picky than we are i guess...i don't know..i try not spending too much time thinking about it. 99% of Christians are baptized..yet those same 99% argue for eons over whether its necessary for salvation. In this situation...why not just Baptize every christian IN CASE...it aint worth eternal damnation is it? eeek...

ok..sorry for rambling

[paxi1334]

I just keep going back to the 14th chapter of Romans on this whole sort of thing... True, there are fundamentals that Christians have to agree on and harness the same meaning out of scripture... but Romans 14 teaches me that sometimes (specifically with non-salvation oriented details) one believer is gonna read the Bible, pray to the heavens and call on the name of Jesus getting one answer ~ while another believer will do the same thing and get the opposite answer. I would guess the best solution is for each individual believer to make sure s/he is right with God and for other believers to give him or her the benefit of the doubt enough to have fellowship with her or him but not enough to follow him or her.

So, Christian essentials/fundamentals first. Then, it's between you and Jesus.

[LutheranChick]

I'm just pulling these paragraphs out to ask the question, do you think the Holy Spirit leads 2 different people in 2 different directions on the same issue then?

Is one belief wrong in the case of female ordination? My issue is that, if the bible is emphatic against women holding Pastoral positions, then is the Spirit leading one group to ordinate them and others not to?

It does confuse me somewhat - I tend to think in terms of, in our flawed humanity, we can be wrong and violate the truth in God's word. God isn't necessarily leading us in opposite directions in certain matters.

You are correct in saying that because of our flawed humanity- the fact that humans have original sin- that we can be wrong and violate God's word. We see God's word through sin-colored glasses. It is impossible for us to perfectly interpret the Word of God. God would never lead people in opposite directions- there is only one way to salvation- through Jesus Christ.

Some people believe that God is calling them to do something that is contrary to what God says in the Bible. They use flawed, sin filled human logic and reasoning to 'interpret' Scripture and think up reasons why "God didn't really mean that".

It may seem like a minor disagreement. But the problem is, there truly is a slippery slope. If 'God didn't mean what he said' in a certain issue, then pretty soon it extends to other issues that 'don't make sense' to the human mind, and so on. Next thing you know, they are preaching people to hell. There are churches in this world that claim to be Christian- but upon studying their actual beliefs, it is anything BUT Christian.

We must be very careful when we feel we are being led by God- to make sure it is truly God who is doing the calling, and not Satan- for Satan loves to trick us. We need to look at Gods word and see if what we think God is telling us to do is consistent with what we are told in the Bible.

Let me try an example:
If I felt that God was telling me to steal money to give to the poor- what does the Bible say? "You shall not steal". Nowhere does it say it would be ok to steal as long as you gave it to the poor. Jesus tells us to give to the poor. Now- Jesus didn't SAY that we can't steal money to give to the poor, did he. So, since he didn't exactly say that, then it should be ok to give the poor stolen money.

I guess in my wordy way I am trying to say that Christians are not exempt from being tricked by Satan. We must always be watchful and pay attention to what God says in the book that He gave us.

[LutheranChick]

The simple answer is that a lot of people who believe themselves to be lead by the Spirit, really aren't.

Hehehe you easily summed up what I took 6 paragraphs to say. :D

Huh? we must be broke again...

[Simon_Templar]

The simple answer is that a lot of people who believe themselves to be lead by the Spirit, really aren't.

PS. Also, you have to account for the fact that people are in different places on their spiritual journey. I and someone else might be both lead by the Spirit, but that other person may be farther ahead in his journey than I am, so he may understand more than I do.. Yet I may think that I understand things which I really don't.

[Nadiine]

Hehehe you easily summed up what I took 6 paragraphs to say. :D

Huh? we must be broke again...
leave that to a MALE ;)


:doh:

[MrJim]

The simple answer is that a lot of people who believe themselves to be lead by the Spirit, really aren't.

PS. Also, you have to account for the fact that people are in different places on their spiritual journey. I and someone else might be both lead by the Spirit, but that other person may be farther ahead in his journey than I am, so he may understand more than I do.. Yet I may think that I understand things which I really don't.
:cool:
emphasis mine

[JPPT1974]

Maybe we aren't meant to understand things
That the Lord doesn't want us to know.

[Teh0bb3s]

8/50.. Jesus christ no pun intended.