Formation of the PNCC

[Wigglesworth]

Wigglesworth,

. . .

Is it not the case that the doctrine of papal infalibility was a major reason for the initial formation of the PNCC?

Please be assurred that I am asking a question in order to learn, and to continue the excellent dialogue that seems to be developing here; not in any way to criticize your position.

Michael

It was not the case. The biggest issues causing Polish Americans to organize a church outside the jurisdiction of Rome were (1) their desire to have parish property owned by the parishoners instead of the bishop, and (2) their desire to have a say in who their priests would be. It was apparently a cultural dispute that was followed by a property dispute between laymen and their bishops.

To generalize, the bishops were Irish, and they treated the Polish immigrants with less respect and kindness than the Polish expected.

It seems to me that the rejection of Vatican I by the Polish people who followed Bishop Hodur was an afterthought.

Peace be with you.

:crossrc:

[AngCath]

interesting. did not know that.

[RestoreTheRiver]

Thank you for correcting my misconception. I am always glad to learn more about sister churches.

Michael

[PadreEgan]

the infaliability of the pope was rejected by the Union of Utrecht Churches. For Hodur to be consecrated a Bishop by Utrecht, he had to sign the Declaration of Utrecht, and thus the PNCC adopted the statement. Over time, people began to understand and personally adopt the Declaration.

[Wigglesworth]

the infaliability of the pope was rejected by the Union of Utrecht Churches. For Hodur to be consecrated a Bishop by Utrecht, he had to sign the Declaration of Utrecht, and thus the PNCC adopted the statement. Over time, people began to understand and personally adopt the Declaration.

This is a good point. It shows that the Vatican I pronouncement on papal infallibility was rejected by the first bishop of the PNCC. It seems fair to say, though, that it was not an issue directly leading to the national church movement that culminated in the formation of the PNCC.

[PadreEgan]

Wigglesworth,

You are correct in that Hodur's National Church Plan, did not have any real 'theological' issues with Rome, more about the ownership and right over choosing clergy.

Even after Hodur signed the Declaration of Utrecht (which he did in German by the way) and the PNCC became an Old Catholic Church, there was not much involvement on behalf of the PNCC for a while. After the PNCC began to develop in the US and then in Poland, you can see the church beginning to become a more active player in the UU. Thus, the PNCC began to adopt a more strict adherence to the Declaration.

Funny how now there could be an argument as to which church, the PNCC or the OC's of Europe really have upheld the Declaration!

[Adammi]

It was not the case. The biggest issues causing Polish Americans to organize a church outside the jurisdiction of Rome were (1) their desire to have parish property owned by the parishoners instead of the bishop, and (2) their desire to have a say in who their priests would be. It was apparently a cultural dispute that was followed by a property dispute between laymen and their bishops.

To generalize, the bishops were Irish, and they treated the Polish immigrants with less respect and kindness than the Polish expected.

It seems to me that the rejection of Vatican I by the Polish people who followed Bishop Hodur was an afterthought.

Peace be with you.

:crossrc:
I honestly did not know this about the PNCC, sounds like a debate over the color of the church carpet to me.

Because of the sex scandals some RC dioceses are allowing parishes to own their own property. If RC parishes were given the ability to select their own priests would the PNCC then dissolve?

[PadreEgan]

If Rome becomes more like the PNCC, and it would take a lot, then I could see unity between the two churches happening much quicker. Of course, the bigger of the two, Rome, would end up being the Church as the PNCC would fade away, but I dont see Rome changing much in the near future.

[Wigglesworth]

I honestly did not know this about the PNCC, sounds like a debate over the color of the church carpet to me.

Because of the sex scandals some RC dioceses are allowing parishes to own their own property. If RC parishes were given the ability to select their own priests would the PNCC then dissolve?
There are still disagreements over issues of doctrine and discipline.

[airlick]

I personally would love to go to a liturgy in Polish. It sounds as if it would be beautiful. Another issue regarding the PNCC was the language of the Mass, because when they split the Roman Catholics were still doing things all in Latin. Almost immediately after the PNCC was founded, they changed the liturgy to Polish and in English. My local PNCC still does Mass in Polish.

[PadreEgan]

The Polish language is beautiful, when the person using it knows the language. That being said, the Polishness of the PNCC is quickly fading away. To me this is not a bad thing, most of our new parishes are Spanish parishes. There is no real need to appeal to Polish immigrants anymore since there are not many. The Church needed to make the switch to English, which is has, although it may have been past the time to make that change, and now we are stuck trying to convince people that you don't have to be Polish to come to our Church.