Raid on Polygamest Compound, How Do You View It?

[bill16652]

My viewpoint is that they trampled the rights of a lot of people and removed forcibly over 400 children and caused untild suffering. They did not try to distinguish fact from fiction beforehand nor did they look for individual cases but rather removed a whole community. If child abuse was going on, which has yet to be shown, then it should have been handled in a manner consistant with law on an individual basis rather than uprooting an entire community. I am also concerned for what this means for the future of individual rights as this is just one state agency. If this is allowed to pass then the federal agencies can do even more than they already are now. I see an open p[olice state rather than a closed one as it is now.

[Criada]

It seems to me that this was a gross violation of people's rights.
It hasn't had a lot of press coverage over here, though, so I don't know all the details.
I'll come back when I've read up on it a little.

[ladyt28]

go to the news area - there's been quite a thread about this over there
http://christianforums.com/t7161964-polygamous-sect-children-ordered-to-stay-in-texas-custody.html

[Nadiine]

go to the news area - there's been quite a thread about this over there
http://christianforums.com/t7161964-polygamous-sect-children-ordered-to-stay-in-texas-custody.html
there's a thread on it in other areas too - I personally think this issue has 2 valid sides going on to be honest.

I see both sides and think it's a shame.

I have 1 thing to add tho, polygamy is ILLEGAL. If the current laws were properly enforced, this issue would have been kept to a containment level - this is the full blown result of the illegal activity which should of been dealt with much earlier on... same goes with it all thru Utah communities.

I also have this to say, is it a good environment for kids to be forced to grow up in cult communes where there's severe spiritual error going on? Brainwashed people or dysfunctional people?
I have to think those kids are just as bad off in those cult communities with what's forced on them as a "norm". I think of this in more than 1 way of "is it right to take the kids out"... what of their overall spiritual well being born into cults?
:help: :sigh:

[bill16652]

there's a thread on it in other areas too - I personally think this issue has 2 valid sides going on to be honest.

I see both sides and think it's a shame.

I have 1 thing to add tho, polygamy is ILLEGAL. If the current laws were properly enforced, this issue would have been kept to a containment level - this is the full blown result of the illegal activity which should of been dealt with much earlier on... same goes with it all thru Utah communities.

I also have this to say, is it a good environment for kids to be forced to grow up in cult communes where there's severe spiritual error going on? Brainwashed people or dysfunctional people?
I have to think those kids are just as bad off in those cult communities with what's forced on them as a "norm". I think of this in more than 1 way of "is it right to take the kids out"... what of their overall spiritual well being born into cults?
:help: :sigh:My only comment on this argum,ent is who do you want to regulate spiritual brainwashing? Right now it is the CWS caseworkers and courts, although that is not really what is being adjudcated. However, with this argument it would be. Personally I dont want the government involved in that although for persecution I am sure they will be. To me it is pure and simple if you believe in what this country was founded on, the individual rights that so many fought and died for that today seem as nothing. It is not just this but also talk of suspending the posse comitas act, wonder why they want top do that? lol. The evesdropping, microchipping, are there any individual rights left? Whatever happened to presumed innocent till proven guilty? Another question, in all of this has there been any reports of actual abuse rather than a ghost phone call that prompted over 400 children being scarred for life.

[Criada]

I can see a case for removing the older children, particularly the girls, but little ones need their family, cult or otherwise.
I don't know what the US childcare system is like, but certainly in Britain their spiritual wellbeing would not be considered there either!

[Nadiine]

My only comment on this argum,ent is who do you want to regulate spiritual brainwashing? Right now it is the CWS caseworkers and courts, although that is not really what is being adjudcated. However, with this argument it would be. Personally I dont want the government involved in that although for persecution I am sure they will be. To me it is pure and simple if you believe in what this country was founded on, the individual rights that so many fought and died for that today seem as nothing. It is not just this but also talk of suspending the posse comitas act, wonder why they want top do that? lol. The evesdropping, microchipping, are there any individual rights left? Whatever happened to presumed innocent till proven guilty? Another question, in all of this has there been any reports of actual abuse rather than a ghost phone call that prompted over 400 children being scarred for life.
Actually Bill, I'm not advocating regulating cults, JUST THE POLYGAMY within it.
It's illegal.

My comments are made as a Christian observing it all. Those kids may actually be better off SPIRITUALLY if they were removed from a cult compound.
What matters more? their eternity? or some emotional pain/turmoil in this life?
People suffer horribly every day; Christians included....

I'm not saying people need to regulate others religion, but spiritually speaking, it's to their benefit to NOT grow up in a cult.

[Nadiine]

I can see a case for removing the older children, particularly the girls, but little ones need their family, cult or otherwise.
I don't know what the US childcare system is like, but certainly in Britain their spiritual wellbeing would not be considered there either!
from the news I heard the other morning, another big issue is that the kids didn't even know who their real parents were. Birth records weren't kept & their last names changed as they swapped spouses & moved the kids with mom to another husband....

something like that. So kids have to be DNA tested to find out who their actual parents are.
Sorry but this is kinda SICK, don't you think? "gee, who's my real daddy"???:help: :help: :help:

[bill16652]

Actually Bill, I'm not advocating regulating cults, JUST THE POLYGAMY within it.
It's illegal.

My comments are made as a Christian observing it all. Those kids may actually be better off SPIRITUALLY if they were removed from a cult compound.
What matters more? their eternity? or some emotional pain/turmoil in this life?
People suffer horribly every day; Christians included....

I'm not saying people need to regulate others religion, but spiritually speaking, it's to their benefit to NOT grow up in a cult.Ok lets look at polygymy, it is illegal here but it is biblical. I am not making a case for or against but it can be said that biblicvally it could be correct and in some societies it copuld be also. Secondly lets say I am the government and I agree with you that spiritual welfare is necessary and children should be removed, now that I have agreed and done that who is to say that I the government would not say that all cjhioldren must be raised, Baptist, or Catholic, or any other denom you care to insert. What about athiests? Druids, Muslims? See where this can lead and why it is a slippery slope? Above all we the people must stand for individual rights for all or none will have them

[Nadiine]

when I hear stories like this going regarding this situation, I DO have to ask where they might be better off for their futures.

We also know the documentary facts from Mormon women who got out of that lifestyle, most all of them tell horror stories of the young boys being banished from the house & put out on the streets, forced marriages, forced marriages of underage girls, molestation/rape/pedophilia is common.....

I think it's bad & dangerous for the kids in EITHER situation they're forced into. It's tragic to me either way.

[bill16652]

from the news I heard the other morning, another big issue is that the kids didn't even know who their real parents were. Birth records weren't kept & their last names changed as they swapped spouses & moved the kids with mom to another husband....

something like that. So kids have to be DNA tested to find out who their actual parents are.
Sorry but this is kinda SICK, don't you think? "gee, who's my real daddy"???:help: :help: :help:Dont they have whole shows dedicated to that very issue? Seems to me that they dont remove the kids till they figure out who the father is. Remember that the least liked in society are often used to test what people will piut up with and set precedent for what will happen later to the masses.

[Nadiine]

Dont they have whole shows dedicated to that very issue? Seems to me that they dont remove the kids till they figure out who the father is. Remember that the least liked in society are often used to test what people will piut up with and set precedent for what will happen later to the masses.
I don't know if they have other instances of this....?

But they didn't have a phone call accusing them of rape in the other instances, do they?
They didn't just go in & raid without provocation for children's safety.....

[bill16652]

I don't know if they have other instances of this....?

But they didn't have a phone call accusing them of rape in the other instances, do they?
They didn't just go in & raid without provocation for children's safety.....And just where is this person? How much child abuse has been reported from the compound? Did they investigate the people individually to see if any might bbe guilty as their innocence is supposed to be presumed until proven otherwise in front of a jury? As I said wholesale and definitely trampled rights

[KarrieTex]

OK, I am going to chime in here as well as I did in other areas about this.

I am highly disappointed in my state. I don't believe they handled this correctly.

I also think there is a big issue of freedom of religion going on here.

I don't like seeing some of these children coming into the Houston area. Granted the environment they were in was horrid. However, when you are dealing with brainwashing from cults there needs to be an establisment of trust and the State is NOT doing that. How do they expect these children and mother's to come out of this when they rip their children away?

[Nadiine]

OK, I am going to chime in here as well as I did in other areas about this.

I am highly disappointed in my state. I don't believe they handled this correctly.

I also think there is a big issue of freedom of religion going on here.

I don't like seeing some of these children coming into the Houston area. Granted the environment they were in was horrid. However, when you are dealing with brainwashing from cults there needs to be an establisment of trust and the State is NOT doing that. How do they expect these children and mother's to come out of this when they rip their children away?
I don't know all the latest details in this. I have basically quit watching the news becuz I'm dissappointed in our media altogether. (in what they're failing to report, what they choose to report and the spin they report it in)

I have no doubt that this could of been handled better -- all I understood initially was that they recieved a phone call of a young girl being raped & they flew in to a cult compound to rescue kids.

I think I would want to see what comes from this & what information the kids give once AWAY from the parents for a little bit to see if there are actually incidents of pedophilia or other stuff like that.

Now that they DO have them, try to identify their parents thru DNA, get them registered properly and then release them.

It's a hard case - I think there are 2 valid sides (depending on the information the authorities were given to have acted as drastically as they had).
Hind sight is always 20/20.

[KarrieTex]

You are behind on this.

It was a 16 yr old WIFE that called it in. They now believe it was a woman, who has nothing to do with this compound, out of Col that called.

There was no reported abuse of children but one report of a 16 yr old wife who was being abused both physically and sexually by her husband.

Texas has known for a very long time of this place and about the practices of multiple marriages.

There is so much wrong with this whole thing that I have no clue how to even share it.

[Criada]

Ugh!
It's one of those situations where there just doesn't seem to be an answer that will work for those kids.
But.... God can do anything.. so am just praying that He will hold and comfort those concerned, and somehow bring some good out of a very bad situation.

[bill16652]

I think what we all had better be concerned with is preserving civil rights for all, individual freedoms, right to privacy. Have you noticed it is goingh the way prayer in the schools went and each day we lose more and more.

[Nadiine]

Just an aside, on the radio news, they announced that 20 of the girls taken from there were pregnant and underage....
so either those 20 girls were with the younger guys (which I DOUBT), or adult men were already having sex with minors - which is statutory rape.

So..... again I'd offer that we should wait & find out some details.

Bill I'm concerned about our civil rights and those girls/kids have rights too & living in that commune, they can't 'escape' so easily to get help.

Again, I see 2 sides with this whole issue. This isn't going to be happening in normal situations - a cult commune should be paid closer attn. to becuz the kids ARE helpless there imho.

[KarrieTex]

Just an aside, on the radio news, they announced that 20 of the girls taken from there were pregnant and underage....
so either those 20 girls were with the younger guys (which I DOUBT), or adult men were already having sex with minors - which is statutory rape.

So..... again I'd offer that we should wait & find out some details.

Bill I'm concerned about our civil rights and those girls/kids have rights too & living in that commune, they can't 'escape' so easily to get help.

Again, I see 2 sides with this whole issue. This isn't going to be happening in normal situations - a cult commune should be paid closer attn. to becuz the kids ARE helpless there imho.
Except you need to be careful about what they mean by underage. I believe the majority of those girls are 17 and here in this state that's the legal age.

[KarrieTex]

I keep coming back to this point.

Texas has known about this compund and their practices for a long time. It bothers me that they went in the way they did.

[Nadiine]

I keep coming back to this point.

Texas has known about this compund and their practices for a long time. It bothers me that they went in the way they did.
That's the bigger wrong here, and it makes me mad.

Since they did know, this should of been dealt with ages ago so as to keep it from escalating to this level today.
This is identical with illegal aliens - turn a blind eye to illegal entry and see the repercussions later when it finally starts creating a problem.

Why have laws if we won't enforce them? This is typical of Utah as well.

[Nadiine]

Except you need to be careful about what they mean by underage. I believe the majority of those girls are 17 and here in this state that's the legal age.
ok . yes that is important. They didn't give ages on the news for me to know the age ranges.

[KarrieTex]

It's a sticky thing. You have freedome of religion on one hand and you have illegal marriages on the other.

I would love to see the authorities go after some muslims who have a marriage between children EVEN THOUGH the bride stays in her father's house until an age. But still these people are marrying and signing marriage contacts. Go after them as well.

[KarrieTex]

another thing as well and i don't believe this is being told outside of TX....if she is 14 -16 she can still get married with her parents permission. from some of what i have been hearing, there are some valid young marriages that the state is trying to control.

[Nadiine]

It's a sticky thing. You have freedome of religion on one hand and you have illegal marriages on the other.

I would love to see the authorities go after some muslims who have a marriage between children EVEN THOUGH the bride stays in her father's house until an age. But still these people are marrying and signing marriage contacts. Go after them as well.
Agreed :thumbsup:

What is it with these people? they sure do "love" kids dont' they?

[Nadiine]

it's almost as if they want to corrupt their youth as SOON as possible. LET THEM BE CHILDREN for heavens sakes.
throwing grown up responsiblities on them so early

[KarrieTex]

it's almost as if they want to corrupt their youth as SOON as possible. LET THEM BE CHILDREN for heavens sakes.
throwing grown up responsiblities on them so early
Think about it though it wasn't that long ago when that wasn't a bad age to be married at. It's amazing how quickly we change our views on this.

I feel more sorry for them now then before. Can you imagine these children being put in public school for the first time?

[Nadiine]

Think about it though it wasn't that long ago when that wasn't a bad age to be married at. It's amazing how quickly we change our views on this.

I feel more sorry for them now then before. Can you imagine these children being put in public school for the first time?
I'm not against younger kids marrying -- I'm totally against forced marriages and marriages to older adult males.
Sorry those are pedophile type men that have perversions & have no business marrying girls so young.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[KarrieTex]

Question....what would you think if this if it was about 120 years ago?

ANd it happens still all over the world. I think it's a misconception to say that these men are pedophiles. The beliefs are based on the time that the Mormon church first started, where a teen marrying a much older man was not unheard of nor looked down on.

In fact, I believe the Amish allow a teen to marry a much older man.

[Nadiine]

Question....what would you think if this if it was about 120 years ago?

ANd it happens still all over the world. I think it's a misconception to say that these men are pedophiles. The beliefs are based on the time that the Mormon church first started, where a teen marrying a much older man was not unheard of nor looked down on.

In fact, I believe the Amish allow a teen to marry a much older man.
I question the men with it and I personally find something perverse about it.
I know what YOUNG girls look like - 14-16 yr olds are very young and still look like little girls yet - I think grown adult men having a sexual attraction to that age when they still haven't 'matured' physically is pedophilia. Custom or not, of any religion.

And then I always ask what it leads to - do they head into polygamy? Do they desire even younger girls than that? I dunno, I have no info. to make a knowledgable argument.
But I can assure you if I had 14-16 yr old girl I wouldn't let a grown adult male get near her sexually for marriage or otherwise.

[bill16652]

Just an aside, on the radio news, they announced that 20 of the girls taken from there were pregnant and underage....
so either those 20 girls were with the younger guys (which I DOUBT), or adult men were already having sex with minors - which is statutory rape.

So..... again I'd offer that we should wait & find out some details.

Bill I'm concerned about our civil rights and those girls/kids have rights too & living in that commune, they can't 'escape' so easily to get help.

Again, I see 2 sides with this whole issue. This isn't going to be happening in normal situations - a cult commune should be paid closer attn. to becuz the kids ARE helpless there imho.Are you so sure of that? If this is acceptable then they can do it anywhere and make up the justification with a false phone call. Those that are guilty should be punished but the innocent should sue their socks off.

[Criada]

I have a 15 yr old daughter.... who I would certainly not want involved sexually with an older man (or any man!!)
However, I would hesitate to accuse these men of paedophilia... my daughter could easily be 18 if judged on appearance alone, as could most of her friends.
Paedophilia is the desire for young, undeveloped children.... most 14 year old girls today are far from that!

[Nadiine]

I have a 15 yr old daughter.... who I would certainly not want involved sexually with an older man (or any man!!)
However, I would hesitate to accuse these men of paedophilia... my daughter could easily be 18 if judged on appearance alone, as could most of her friends.
Paedophilia is the desire for young, undeveloped children.... most 14 year old girls today are far from that!
they are these days Criada... girls have changed significantly in how they act & dress due to society causing them to appear more mature and sexual at younger ages.
This wasn't this way even 15 yrs ago. And I certainly don't think it's this way in that polygamist cult - did you see how the adult women looked? I'm sure the younger girls there look very young without wearing the makeup, having 'sexy' hair & clothing, etc.

[KarrieTex]

they are these days Criada... girls have changed significantly in how they act & dress due to society causing them to appear more mature and sexual at younger ages.
This wasn't this way even 15 yrs ago. And I certainly don't think it's this way in that polygamist cult - did you see how the adult women looked? I'm sure the younger girls there look very young without wearing the makeup, having 'sexy' hair & clothing, etc.
Again, you are dealing with a cult that has kept itself very very old in traditions. What we consider to be abhorant was not that a 120 yrs ago.

Seriously, what would you do if you were sent back in time to just that 120 yrs ago where 15-18 yr old women were marry 30's on up men???

[Nadiine]

Again, you are dealing with a cult that has kept itself very very old in traditions. What we consider to be abhorant was not that a 120 yrs ago.

Seriously, what would you do if you were sent back in time to just that 120 yrs ago where 15-18 yr old women were marry 30's on up men???
well for that matter then, we could all be barbarians if our history leads back to that?

It isnt' about what WAS, but what IS.

Do we allow people to commit crimes and offenses of any kind if they believe they want to live a certain way becuz they're elders did and build themselves compounds to carry it all out? Exactly how far do we go with this?

It doesn't matter to me what was, it matters to me what law is today.

[Nadiine]

I'd offer up the example of slavery as a common practice 100 yrs. ago too, but it's not ok to lock yourself in a compound someplace and use & abuse slaves just becuz your plantation forefathers did it & it's your heretage & belief.

[bill16652]

Again, you are dealing with a cult that has kept itself very very old in traditions. What we consider to be abhorant was not that a 120 yrs ago.

Seriously, what would you do if you were sent back in time to just that 120 yrs ago where 15-18 yr old women were marry 30's on up men???In those days girls older than 15 were considered to be getting to be old maids. Another question to think about as well, could it be that by our own standards we have led to a sexual society ripe with teenage pregnancy? If it is natural to develop and become sexual at 12-13 then will it not also stand to reason that by regulating marriage in this way that what follows is easy to see? There are many questions as this is a complex issue and worthy of another thread at some point maybe but the real question on this trhread is all about what rights do we have versus the rights of the state? I will stand on the bill of rights and constitution.

[bill16652]

well for that matter then, we could all be barbarians if our history leads back to that?

It isnt' about what WAS, but what IS.

Do we allow people to commit crimes and offenses of any kind if they believe they want to live a certain way becuz they're elders did and build themselves compounds to carry it all out? Exactly how far do we go with this?

It doesn't matter to me what was, it matters to me what law is today.What should matter is what is right, how did God ordain it? Legal rights, are they being trampled, guilty people have been set free because of littl;e technicalities like trampling the constitution but that was before our fear mongering government took away so much of our privacy

[KarrieTex]

In those days girls older than 15 were considered to be getting to be old maids. Another question to think about as well, could it be that by our own standards we have led to a sexual society ripe with teenage pregnancy? If it is natural to develop and become sexual at 12-13 then will it not also stand to reason that by regulating marriage in this way that what follows is easy to see? There are many questions as this is a complex issue and worthy of another thread at some point maybe but the real question on this trhread is all about what rights do we have versus the rights of the state? I will stand on the bill of rights and constitution.
There it is. There is a bigger issue of freedom of religion than there is of a difference of view in society.

The Amish allow their children to marry young but we aren't attacking them. The Muslims allow the same thing nope no attacking them.

If we as a country allow the FLDS to begin then we have to respect their practices as well. OR we need to follow the law and do something about all that do this.

Another thing to think about...are we sure these marriages were all consummated? It is an assumption that no one has even bothered to check.

[bill16652]

There it is. There is a bigger issue of freedom of religion than there is of a difference of view in society.

The Amish allow their children to marry young but we aren't attacking them. The Muslims allow the same thing nope no attacking them.

If we as a country allow the FLDS to begin then we have to respect their practices as well. OR we need to follow the law and do something about all that do this.

Another thing to think about...are we sure these marriages were all consummated? It is an assumption that no one has even bothered to check.Amen, I have Amish in the area I live in and I have talked to a few of them. One thing that always struck me was the fact that they only went to eigth grade and home schooled but was stopped dead when I asked if they didnt think they were limiting them when an Amish man looked at me and said have you ever seen any of the Amish on welfare? You are absoplutely right that this goes not only to freedom of religion but also to right of privacy, unreasonable search and seizure, I would even make a case for kidnapping considering that there are many innocent involved in this.

[Nadiine]

There it is. There is a bigger issue of freedom of religion than there is of a difference of view in society.

The Amish allow their children to marry young but we aren't attacking them. The Muslims allow the same thing nope no attacking them.

If we as a country allow the FLDS to begin then we have to respect their practices as well. OR we need to follow the law and do something about all that do this.

Another thing to think about...are we sure these marriages were all consummated? It is an assumption that no one has even bothered to check.
Police don't just drive around to the Amish countryside to do spot checks on if people are obeying the laws...

They were obviously allowing the Mormons to live in polygamy everywhere too - this is a different problem in a compound setting and they got a phone call of abuse and went in.

I don't find it so appaulling what they did considering the news reports of what they have since found. They don't just do drastic stuff like that until they find enough cause to do so.
They just had the Warren Jeffs case last year with this same problem, no doubt they're going to be on alert to the possibility of this polygamist compound doing the same.

I don't like it any more than anyone else, but I do find some just cause for what they felt they had to do.

As a CHRISTIAN, I want those kids OUT of cult polygamist compounds and hopefully into a better environment somehow. Christians should be able to see both issues of this, not just legality, but spirituality of innocent kids who will grow up to follow in those footsteps of a cult group.

[bill16652]

Police don't just drive around to the Amish countryside to do spot checks on if people are obeying the laws...

They were obviously allowing the Mormons to live in polygamy everywhere too - this is a different problem in a compound setting and they got a phone call of abuse and went in.

I don't find it so appaulling what they did considering the news reports of what they have since found. They don't just do drastic stuff like that until they find enough cause to do so.
They just had the Warren Jeffs case last year with this same problem, no doubt they're going to be on alert to the possibility of this polygamist compound doing the same.

I don't like it any more than anyone else, but I do find some just cause for what they felt they had to do.

As a CHRISTIAN, I want those kids OUT of cult polygamist compounds and hopefully into a better environment somehow. Christians should be able to see both issues of this, not just legality, but spirituality of innocent kids who will grow up to follow in those footsteps of a cult group.Then what about the opther groups mentioned? They do questionable things by definition of society yet they are religions set aside. I dont agree with them but I sure dont want to see them bne the poster children for doing this somewhere else either. I think we have lost enough rights already under this government. This isnt about agreeing with or disagreeing with them, it goes to freedom of religion, and whether they acted responsibly.

[KarrieTex]

Let's talk about the FAKE call to the police as well. That's another whole issue about this. Instead of investigating this call they raided and now weeks later it was a hoax. What does that say about our freedom's?

What you are hearing about what is happening in those compounds is not what we in Texas are getting. It has not be soo dramatized here. Yes there is underage marriages, which should be called child abuse as well when dealing with the others.

WHat is getting me is the double standard here. It's ok for say the Amish or the Muslims but not the FLDS?

[Nadiine]

Then what about the opther groups mentioned? They do questionable things by definition of society yet they are religions set aside. I dont agree with them but I sure dont want to see them bne the poster children for doing this somewhere else either. I think we have lost enough rights already under this government. This isnt about agreeing with or disagreeing with them, it goes to freedom of religion, and whether they acted responsibly.
They don't seem to have a known track record of abuse? OR they DO need to do something about it, but haven't had just cause to raid it??? Afraid of the backlash that would occur? I'm not sure why - they may have no proof of it yet to even go in. They need cause I would think.

I don't know, but holding up other wrongs to support another doesn't really hold up - all are wrong and all need attention.
Govt. & justice isn't always fair. Things are unfair and wrongs are allowed to continue every day.

I don't see how any 'rights' have been taken from us becuz of this instance. It's a compound, they aren't barging into the Cleaver's house to take Beaver to a foster home.
We aren't talking about a normal situation in this setting.

I heard that they are bringing moms to be with the very small children - not sure what ages they're involving with that yet.

[bill16652]

They don't seem to have a known track record of abuse? OR they DO need to do something about it, but haven't had just cause to raid it??? Afraid of the backlash that would occur? I'm not sure why - they may have no proof of it yet to even go in. They need cause I would think.

I don't know, but holding up other wrongs to support another doesn't really hold up - all are wrong and all need attention.
Govt. & justice isn't always fair. Things are unfair and wrongs are allowed to continue every day.

I don't see how any 'rights' have been taken from us becuz of this instance. It's a compound, they aren't barging into the Cleaver's house to take Beaver to a foster home.
We aren't talking about a normal situation in this setting.

I heard that they are bringing moms to be with the very small children - not sure what ages they're involving with that yet.What of the 7 and 8 year olds? I am sure that all is ok with them? What of the mothers? Sure they have a high opinion of justice. Yes, it is our freedom, you have no idea who will be listed as subversave, what group? What will the legal definition of hate crime be? Theres one you had better be worried about. As far as this compound, the whole thing was staged to be able to do the raid that they did. Have you heard any more about this woman who made the fake phone call? Most people would have been charged for that. What is to prevent any agency from claiming they had a phomne call? It ised to be that they investigated first, found the guilty and acted.

[Nadiine]

Let's talk about the FAKE call to the police as well. That's another whole issue about this. Instead of investigating this call they raided and now weeks later it was a hoax. What does that say about our freedom's?

What you are hearing about what is happening in those compounds is not what we in Texas are getting. It has not be soo dramatized here. Yes there is underage marriages, which should be called child abuse as well when dealing with the others.

WHat is getting me is the double standard here. It's ok for say the Amish or the Muslims but not the FLDS?
Even tho they later found it was fake, they're claiming there are abuses that were found, they need to properly document the kids so they have names and parents accounted for, there are 20 known pregnant underage girls (who knows how many others they don't know of yet)....

If they didn't see anything wrong when they went to investigate, I'm very sure they'de of just done some internal prodding of it specifically instead of rounding them all up; they must have seen something to give them the alert to take such a drastic measure collectively.
I wasn't there, I just can't know what they know.

I don't like it anymore than anyone else and my heart goes out to them - but again (I know i'm a broken record), they aren't IN a healthy environment where they're at either!
Theres plenty of reason to worry for them if they're handed back to their "family" to live in a polygamist cult compound where they do look brainwashed.

It's just sad all the way around. I'm HOPING some of them will be helped in this process if they DID want out or needed intervention.
:sigh: :cry:

[KarrieTex]

This is another issue. What we as Christians deem unhealthy is not what the Constitution deems unhealthy when it comes to faith. Look at Scientology that is very much a cult and they break the law but...

I am sorry this is where I step out from under the Christian flag and look at this from regards of my freedoms as an American. If this is allowed to go unchecked, then what is to stop the gov't from doing that from any compound or any other faith based living area?

[Nadiine]

This is another issue. What we as Christians deem unhealthy is not what the Constitution deems unhealthy when it comes to faith. Look at Scientology that is very much a cult and they break the law but...

I am sorry this is where I step out from under the Christian flag and look at this from regards of my freedoms as an American. If this is allowed to go unchecked, then what is to stop the gov't from doing that from any compound or any other faith based living area?
Ok, well then... wouldn't that also have to apply to abortion then?

But I can't help but think you or Bill are assuming that my Christian/personal observations are what I'm saying I want enforced legally.
I'm not saying that and haven't come close to it. I make Christian observances becuz I am one. I know full well they aren't 'better off' in an abusive, cult atmosphere... for all I know, God used that fake phone call to directly intervene for those kids?? I can't know that or not.

But my observance of the situation as a Christian DOES cloud my view on if I'm for or against them being taken from that compound. The reason I'm NOT infuriated or in fear of my rights is becuz of the harm I believe they're already in by living there w/ such dysfunctional people, being taught a false god & improper moral values and being harmed in other ways.
That does cloud my view of this and I keep hoping that some of them can be helped somehow if they need it.

I think prayer would be best for them all in this. :groupray: :groupray:

[KarrieTex]

Let me say that I do not agree with what the FLDS have done. They broke the law and I want to see these children and their parents heal.

[KarrieTex]

There lies another problem. We can not have an attitude of that nature in a country that promotes freedom of ALL religion. There needs to be a seperation here or we as Christians need to prepare for the same treatment.

I would want the children and parents taught the True God but at the same time I am not going to let it color my thinking so much that I am for a double standard that sets up for the acceptance of my gov't acting against the Constitution.

[Nadiine]

Let me say that I do not agree with what the FLDS have done. They broke the law and I want to see these children and their parents heal.
oh I didn't think you agreed with it Karrie!! :hug:
I'm not mad or anything, just discussing all the sides. :hug: :)

I agree, the polygamy has got to be dealt with, by them NOT dealing with the polygamy (the source of the problem), the young boys have been allowed to be abandoned, underage girls impregnanted by adult men, forced into marriages they didn't want, and they also say in the documents of ex polygamist women who left, that incest/pedophilia is common w/ the young girls by these fathers.

If they'de of dealt with this properly, earlier on (in Utah also), this wouldn't be so rampant or escalated. They have to deal with this and stop it.
:sigh: :sigh:

[Nadiine]

There lies another problem. We can not have an attitude of that nature in a country that promotes freedom of ALL religion. There needs to be a seperation here or we as Christians need to prepare for the same treatment.

I would want the children and parents taught the True God but at the same time I am not going to let it color my thinking so much that I am for a double standard that sets up for the acceptance of my gov't acting against the Constitution.
I don't see how this is a double standard tho? These parents are in a compound, in full control of the kids who can't "escape" (ie if they wanted to), I believe they are brainwashed - altho not formally - committing a known felony of polygamy - raising kids to flagrantly break the law as a societal normative.
They're training and causing their kids to also be law breakers here.

How is this a double standard unless Christians are also doing this?

If there was no polygamy going on and they weren't Mormons or a cult, and they lived on this compound in the same situation, and cops went in & found underage girls pregnant, some in marriages already, kids undocumented without knowing their last names, & possibly other things we don't know, I"d expect the cops to take the kids or arrest the parents on the spot.

Religion, polygamy or not. The kids appear to be in danger or forced illegal situations & it has to be looked into.
I see no double standard, I'm merely saying that as a Christian, I know they're in a bad, unstable and unsafe living situation, the one their now put into can't be much worse than what they're already in.

[ladyt28]

Here's a couple of things I found:
"Even with their parents' permission, Texas law forbids girls younger than 16 to marry." But my question is - how could anyone at this compound give permission if they are playing games with who the dads are?

"Jeffs is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., where he awaits trial for four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001."

Is no one else bothered by a man like this calling his perverse lifestyle a "religion"? If that's all it takes to 'legitimize' pedophiles, then we all better pray NAMBLA doesn't catch on!

"The children reported that if the prophet heard from the Heavenly Father that they were to marry at any age, they were to do that. If the prophet said they were to lie, they were to do that," Voss said.
"Venturing beyond the brilliant white limestone walls of their compound would consign them to eternal damnation, their church leaders preached."

When people call it a 'religion', they call this indoctrinated - when it's a bunch of pedophiles, we call it grooming.

[mont974x4]

I am certainly concerned with the possible future abuse of government power. However when I read things like this, I have to say something had to be done....



SAN ANGELO, Texas — After hours of legal wrangling, a custody hearing for hundreds of children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused when a child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.
The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the 416 children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse in part because the sect, Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon splinter group, encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.
Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351544,00.html





I told my bride "maybe we should see about foster care or adoption for one the younger girls?" Her reply was something about already being protective my neice, my already owning a shotgun...and then thinking of me having a daughter that I knew was abused.

[ladyt28]

And yeah, very young girls used to marry and have children and still do in other countries but you know what? We don't allow that anymore and there are laws against it now. I know some people want to have a hysterical response indicating that this is just the beginning of a slippery slope but I'll say this - I completely support what Texas did and pray that God leads the people involved in the investigation and the ones involved with the care of the victims (both the children and the mothers).

[Hentenza]

Polygamy and under age sex is illegal in the US (thank God!!). These people are braking the law and should be prosecuted to the full extent.

[bill16652]

And yeah, very young girls used to marry and have children and still do in other countries but you know what? We don't allow that anymore and there are laws against it now. I know some people want to have a hysterical response indicating that this is just the beginning of a slippery slope but I'll say this - I completely support what Texas did and pray that God leads the people involved in the investigation and the ones involved with the care of the victims (both the children and the mothers).Then you will support whatever is PC at the time if they happen to raid your church? Call it hysteria but this does set a legal precedant that is not good for the church at all. Where was the probable cause? Where was the truth? How many innocent people were rounded up with the guilty? How much damage is being done to the mothers and children by being removed? These are issues that had better be looked at as well.

[ladyt28]

Then you will support whatever is PC at the time if they happen to raid your church? Call it hysteria but this does set a legal precedant that is not good for the church at all. Where was the probable cause? Where was the truth? How many innocent people were rounded up with the guilty? How much damage is being done to the mothers and children by being removed? These are issues that had better be looked at as well.

We aren't going to change each others opinion here - you believe they had a legitimate "religion" and "church". I believe it was a shame to hide pedophiles. You focus on the possibility that removal might cause damage, I hold firm with living in a cult-setting where you are groomed to be sexually exploited is already damaging. When I worked in the field of childrens services, it would have been enough for me to petition on and I can bet you that the judge would have ordered the removal.

Let me ask this - do you get involved in these types of issues in your own community? You could train to be a volunteer gaurdian-ad-litem. You could attend some of the hearings when judges decide if a petition warrents enough risk to order a removal.

[bill16652]

We aren't going to change each others opinion here - you believe they had a legitimate "religion" and "church". I believe it was a shame to hide pedophiles. You focus on the possibility that removal might cause damage, I hold firm with living in a cult-setting where you are groomed to be sexually exploited is already damaging. When I worked in the field of childrens services, it would have been enough for me to petition on and I can bet you that the judge would have ordered the removal.

Let me ask this - do you get involved in these types of issues in your own community? You could train to be a volunteer gaurdian-ad-litem. You could attend some of the hearings when judges decide if a petition warrents enough risk to order a removal.It is as far as I know a legimate religion just as much as scientology or JW's or other that I do not agree with. I also do not agree with breaking the law, I do however object to the wholesale roundup that took the innocent as well as the guilty, personally I thionk the innocent should sue the socks off of that agency

[mont974x4]

It is as far as I know a legimate religion just as much as scientology or JW's or other that I do not agree with. I also do not agree with breaking the law, I do however object to the wholesale roundup that took the innocent as well as the guilty, personally I thionk the innocent should sue the socks off of that agency
I don't think they had a choice about who they rounded up.


That's especially true knowing that the group lied about ages and names etc.


They simply couldn't risk leaving a victim behind, plus last time I heard only 2 people were actually arrested...after more investigation to support actual charges.


Think about this, if one child out of 4-5 siblings claims abuse in a normal family the state will take all the kids at first for their protection and then start sorting things out.

This "family" just happened to have hundreds in one "household".


BTW, my mom trains the guardians in our area. While I don't get to hear the aprticulars of individual cases (for obvious reasons) over the last few years I have learned a little about the system and the work they do to keep the kids safe while protecting the family as a whole is astonishing at times.

[Nadiine]

I don't think they had a choice about who they rounded up.


That's especially true knowing that the group lied about ages and names etc.


They simply couldn't risk leaving a victim behind, plus last time I heard only 2 people were actually arrested...after more investigation to support actual charges.


Think about this, if one child out of 4-5 siblings claims abuse in a normal family the state will take all the kids at first for their protection and then start sorting things out.

This "family" just happened to have hundreds in one "household".


BTW, my mom trains the guardians in our area. While I don't get to hear the aprticulars of individual cases (for obvious reasons) over the last few years I have learned a little about the system and the work they do to keep the kids safe while protecting the family as a whole is astonishing at times.
that's how I view this - I don't have any 'fear' about regular peoples' rights being trampled due to the particular nature of this specific and very uncommon situation.
This is a huge compound with kids everywhere, not being given information by the parents... lack of documentation on who's child is who's (if THEY even know who belongs to whom??????)

20 teens found pregnant (that they know of now) -- how could they even decide which family was who's kid and not in any danger?
Impossible - I don't see how they could just figure out who they could leave there?

As I keep saying, I do see both sides of this - & understand why they felt this was necessary. Cops are NOT inclined to do drastic things like this without just cause.
Something they saw or heard made them feel this was mandatory becuz of the press they knew it would get.

[Nadiine]

It is as far as I know a legimate religion just as much as scientology or JW's or other that I do not agree with. I also do not agree with breaking the law, I do however object to the wholesale roundup that took the innocent as well as the guilty, personally I thionk the innocent should sue the socks off of that agency
But again Bill, not one of us have stated that Mormonism (as a religion) isn't legitimate as a religion.

I'm simply sayign this has ZERO to do w/ religion. This is about families and children who are found to be in possible danger by a community of adults who force them into teen marriages & early pregnancies - and polygamy.
It's got nothing to do w/ Mormonism - take their religion out of the way & you still have the same physical harm situation going on and authorities still have the same burden to protect and help any minor in a dangerous environment.
They do remove kids from their homes all the time in the regular world - irregardless of what religion they are.
They also removed the people in Wacko Tx. from that compound - and they also removed people in David Koresh's compound (or was that who that was???).
I forget, it was a long time ago.

Then you have the Jim Jones compound thing - he brainwashed them all into mass suicide.

I hate to say it, but this 'compound" lifestyle has a bad track record of criminal and/or sexual deviants on the prowl inside of them. religion aside.

[ladyt28]

[quote=bill16652;46353234 personally I thionk the innocent should sue the socks off of that agency[/quote]

We'll talk IF they actually find one - what do you think the chances are of there being an "innocent" person in this mess? No one was allowed to have any kind of opinion or action that wasn't being dictated by the pedophile leaders. How exactly would you define an "innocent" person in this case?

[Nadiine]

We'll talk IF they actually find one - what do you think the chances are of there being an "innocent" person in this mess? No one was allowed to have any kind of opinion or action that wasn't being dictated by the pedophile leaders. How exactly would you define an "innocent" person in this case?
this goes towards an earlier post I had made on this subject in another thread.
Someone wanted the kids to at least go back to the mothers, but I pointed out that the mothers are compliant with the illegal teen weddings to adult males who get them pregnant....

How are the mothers "good moms" when they're in support of and protecting rapists/pedophiles and moving from family to family?
They're not protecting their young, they're basically raising them to break the law (polygamy) and be thrown to adults for sex and childbearing.

:o
If that's a good mom, I'd like to ask what a bad one is?

[JPPT1974]

Those "good moms" are indeed protecting
Rapists, pedohilles, holding their "children"
Against their will, denying them of a good and
Normal childhood. :(

[bill16652]

We'll talk IF they actually find one - what do you think the chances are of there being an "innocent" person in this mess? No one was allowed to have any kind of opinion or action that wasn't being dictated by the pedophile leaders. How exactly would you define an "innocent" person in this case?One who isnt charged, one whose family is returned. How would you define innocent? Legally there are boundries andn they were stepped across and trampled into the ground.

[ladyt28]

One who isnt charged, one whose family is returned.
Again, I don't foresee that happening in this case from all that I have read about it.

[bill16652]

Again, I don't foresee that happening in this case from all that I have read about it.Then you have read more than I have seen because to me it sounds like they dont know who is who and that they just wholesale took everyone regardless of guilt or innocence, under normal law I am not even sure that anything found would be admissable since it was based in a false complaint that wasnt checked into.

[kasprinkle]

A couple of things that have not been brought up is the innate dishonesty of this group of people.
When the CP workers came into the compound they asked about Sarah (the name of the person making the call). They were told there were no persons named Sarah there. So far FOUR Sarahs have been identified. So they started out by lying to officials. The women and children have been encouraged to lie to officials about their spouses and parentage, thus bringing on the demand for DNA. This didn't have to happen; they are making it more difficult on themselves.

Then there is the "bleeding of the Beast" doctrine. The FLDS encourages getting everything you can from the government, bleeding it dry. So when these men decide to breed like rabbits, it is the good WORKING people of the state of Texas who are paying for their children. Because these women present themselves as "single mothers", they are all on welfare. The FLDS thinks this is wonderful. There is a Scripture that says a man ho will not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. Guess they missed that in the Bible.

Women who are raised to believe that they are only good as "breeders" know no other options for life and happiness. If you don't know you have options, you have none, so many of these girls don't have to be FORCED, they just resign to it...And remember that many young men (13-17) are regularly kicked out of the FLDS because they are too much "competition" to the dirty old men who want their 8th wife to be a sweet young thing of 15.

As a Social Worker and former Children's Protective Services worker, I think Texas probably may not have done it all right, but I'm glad they decided to do SOMETHING, unlike the appeasers in Colorado City...

[Nadiine]

A couple of things that have not been brought up is the innate dishonesty of this group of people.
When the CP workers came into the compound they asked about Sarah (the name of the person making the call). They were told there were no persons named Sarah there. So far FOUR Sarahs have been identified. So they started out by lying to officials. The women and children have been encouraged to lie to officials about their spouses and parentage, thus bringing on the demand for DNA. This didn't have to happen; they are making it more difficult on themselves.

Then there is the "bleeding of the Beast" doctrine. The FLDS encourages getting everything you can from the government, bleeding it dry. So when these men decide to breed like rabbits, it is the good WORKING people of the state of Texas who are paying for their children. Because these women present themselves as "single mothers", they are all on welfare. The FLDS thinks this is wonderful. There is a Scripture that says a man ho will not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. Guess they missed that in the Bible.

Women who are raised to believe that they are only good as "breeders" know no other options for life and happiness. If you don't know you have options, you have none, so many of these girls don't have to be FORCED, they just resign to it...And remember that many young men (13-17) are regularly kicked out of the FLDS because they are too much "competition" to the dirty old men who want their 8th wife to be a sweet young thing of 15.

As a Social Worker and former Children's Protective Services worker, I think Texas probably may not have done it all right, but I'm glad they decided to do SOMETHING, unlike the appeasers in Colorado City...
I hear you loud and clear and I didn't know some of those things, so I appreciate you sharing that information with us.

I have heard many times of the problem of abandoned young men in the polygamist communities - and yes, it's the old adult men who are predominantly snagging up the very young girls - and sorry but it's pure perversion.

It's just a well known fact that predators pick religions and positions that allow them access and control over their victims.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

I'm not against younger kids marrying -- I'm totally against forced marriages and marriages to older adult males.
Sorry those are pedophile type men that have perversions & have no business marrying girls so young.:mad: :mad: :mad:
Is it fair to make the assumption that these older men are "pedophile type men"? According to history Joseph was a widow and was 40 yrs old when he married Mary and she was 13 yrs old. Seems that these marriages are for religious beliefs, not pedophilia reasons.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

well for that matter then, we could all be barbarians if our history leads back to that?

It isnt' about what WAS, but what IS.

Do we allow people to commit crimes and offenses of any kind if they believe they want to live a certain way becuz they're elders did and build themselves compounds to carry it all out? Exactly how far do we go with this?

It doesn't matter to me what was, it matters to me what law is today.
But as karrietex already stated, in the State of Texas legal marrying age is 17 and you can marry at 15 and 16 with a parents permission. (i am sure these girls all had parents permission), therefore, the marriages are NOT illegal. The Polygamy, on the other hand, IS illegal and that is what they should focus on...that and finding out if any of the chidren have been physically or sexually abused.

[KarrieTex]

I am worried that they are setting the kids up to say that they are so they can win their case.

I have heard that the teen that just gave birth is 17. If she is, they can't use her and they shouldn't be able to take her child away which they have done.

AGAIN, I don't like how my state is handling this.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

i heard this morning on the radio that they have found a few children with previously broken bones (you can tell from xray) and they are getting info together for abuse charges. I don't know if that seems right. a FEW children out of 416 had broken a bone at some point, does that mean they were abused? maybe they fell off their bike. This is indeed a mess.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

Though i disagree with this cult's religious beliefs and i think the polygamists should be charged since it is a broken law, and i also hope that any true child abuse going on does get discovered, i am concerned about the WAY this all came down..especially with a FAKE phone call that started it all. I agree with bill about the govt and how we need to be concerned of this becoming some kind of presedence.

[KarrieTex]

I am a bit cautious about that as well. 400 kiddos running around in the country and a handful if that much have broken bones. Whoopie. I mean what would they do if they rounded up 400 kids from the local school and looked?

[MrJim]

i heard this morning on the radio that they have found a few children with previously broken bones (you can tell from xray) and they are getting info together for abuse charges. I don't know if that seems right. a FEW children out of 416 had broken a bone at some point, does that mean they were abused? maybe they fell off their bike. This is indeed a mess.

As long as there are medical records there shouldn't be a problem?

[MrJim]

Though i disagree with this cult's religious beliefs and i think the polygamists should be charged since it is a broken law.

Why should polygamy be against the law~in a libertarian sort of approach~anymore than gay marriage?

[KarrieTex]

But will TX take the word of the doctor for the compound? These kids didn't come off that compound.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

Why should polygamy be against the law~in a libertarian sort of approach~anymore than gay marriage?
i didn't say polygamy SHOULD be against the law, i said it IS against the law and therefore, they should be charged.

[MrJim]

i didn't say polygamy SHOULD be against the law, i said it IS against the law and therefore, they should be charged.

Yeah I get that, just wonderin'...

[Simon_Templar]

I don't have any particular wish to defend mormons, or polygamy, however, this event, just like the events in Waco with the branch dividians show the power of the government with the media as its tool.

The fact is we don't know squat about what was or wasn't really going on there. We only know what the media has told us. That, for the most part, has amounted to a lot of unsubstantiated allegations and rumors.

The government has shown, a few times now, that all they have to do to crush anyone they want is get the media to portray the group in question as a dangerous abusive cult and the people will aplaud their destruction.

[JDIBe]

I live about 90 mi. from San Angelo and it is indeed a mess. 400 kids, each with their own lawyers and uncertain parentage. I wondered why don't they just let the 12 and unders go, if the problem is teenage marriage? That would cut the number of kids and cases in half. Supposedly there are very few young males there. They are sent out to work and send money back while the young mothers collect welfare.

The sad thing is, if we as a society are going to get out of the business of "defining marriage", I see no difference between a polygamous relationship (between 5 "consenting adults") and a gay one. Sometimes the slope is indeed slippery.....

[drewpls]

My viewpoint is that they trampled the rights of a lot of people and removed forcibly over 400 children and caused untild suffering. They did not try to distinguish fact from fiction beforehand nor did they look for individual cases but rather removed a whole community. If child abuse was going on, which has yet to be shown, then it should have been handled in a manner consistant with law on an individual basis rather than uprooting an entire community. I am also concerned for what this means for the future of individual rights as this is just one state agency. If this is allowed to pass then the federal agencies can do even more than they already are now. I see an open p[olice state rather than a closed one as it is now.

I'm disgusted that you can even THINK about the rights of the people who systematically RAPE young girls. Excuse me, but you need to get your priorites sorted out mister.

[bill16652]

I'm disgusted that you can even THINK about the rights of the people who systematically RAPE young girls. Excuse me, but you need to get your priorites sorted out mister.Was it all of them? The women that were affected as well? All the kids? You had better be concerned because the next time it could be your rights. As I said this sets a precedent that I dont want to see and neither should anyone else that loves liberty.

[KarrieTex]

Well Texas is going to investigate and probably charge the CPS. There is a 22 yr old mother, who is a first wife, that they have in custody because they don't believe she is 22. They also took the baby from her that she just had within hours of birth.

Sorry but my state is wrong in this and I hope they nail them.

[bill16652]

Well Texas is going to investigate and probably charge the CPS. There is a 22 yr old mother, who is a first wife, that they have in custody because they don't believe she is 22. They also took the baby from her that she just had within hours of birth.

Sorry but my state is wrong in this and I hope they nail them.A state that truly understands individual and states rights:clap:If they had done a proper investigation to begin with noone wouldf now be questioning but to sweep up the innocent along with the guilty goes against everything this country stqands for.

[KarrieTex]

Well as much as I love my State, we do make mistakes and this one we did.

[SolomonVII]

Polygamy is demeaning to women and against the law. Canada has allowed this kind of practice to go on for way too long in Bounty, BC. some of the same people were involved.

There is no easy way to enforce the law, but polygamy is a way of life for much of the world. As America absorbs the world's populations, it is the time now to send a clear message that polygamy is against the cultural values of this country.

Sure it is heart-wrenching to see children being torn apart form the only family that they know and love, and there are no doubt many fine values in these types of communities.
But there is no place for this kind of practice in America. It fundamentally violates the dignity and inalienable human rights of these girls. There are good reasons that polygamy is against the law. Whether they have been given enough freedom to realize it or not, this is a form of abuse.

Canada itself is afraid to challenge the Bounty commune, for Canadian marriage law has become too diluted down and there is a good chance that the challenge will result in polygamy standing. One can only hope that America has tetained enough of its culture to put an end to this type of practice.

We just don't need to tolerate polygamy and firty year olds marrying kids.

[JDIBe]

Polygamy is demeaning to women and against the law. Canada has allowed this kind of practice to go on for way too long in Bounty, BC. some of the same people were involved.

There is no easy way to enforce the law, but polygamy is a way of life for much of the world. As America absorbs the world's populations, it is the time now to send a clear message that polygamy is against the cultural values of this country.

Sure it is heart-wrenching to see children being torn apart form the only family that they know and love, and there are no doubt many fine values in these types of communities.
But there is no place for this kind of practice in America. It fundamentally violates the dignity and inalienable human rights of these girls. There are good reasons that polygamy is against the law. Whether they have been given enough freedom to realize it or not, this is a form of abuse.

Canada itself is afraid to challenge the Bounty commune, for Canadian marriage law has become too diluted down and there is a good chance that the challenge will result in polygamy standing. One can only hope that America has tetained enough of its culture to put an end to this type of practice.

We just don't need to tolerate polygamy and firty year olds marrying kids.

It won't be illegal here for much longer. Once we decide we are "out of the marriage definition business", I see no legal argument that could honestly differentiate a gay marriage "between 2 loving adults" and a polygamist one "between 3 loving adults". Once we dictate to people that we have no right to define what marriage is, you can't turn right around and draw the line arbitrarily at polygamy. (I seem to be harping on the gay marriage thing in this thread. It is on my mind lately. California just struck down their marriage statute today as "unconstitutional".)

The problem with prosecuting such marriages is that in most cases, there is no piece of paper that says they are married to more than one person. That makes it very difficult to prove. The other "wives" sometimes apply for welfare as "single mothers". So many men have "one wife" and many "de facto" wives. Yes, you can prosecute underage marriages, but you can't if the parents give their consent. Most of these girls are children of church members. I suppose you might be able to prosecute under child-abuse laws (no parent can give consent to that) if you can prove it, but if all involved are adults.....it's a tough case to legally prove.

One way or another, it's a big mess that won't be sorted out quickly or cheaply.

[Nadiine]

It won't be illegal here for much longer. Once we decide we are "out of the marriage definition business", I see no legal argument that could honestly differentiate a gay marriage "between 2 loving adults" and a polygamist one "between 3 loving adults". Once we dictate to people that we have no right to define what marriage is, you can't turn right around and draw the line arbitrarily at polygamy. (I seem to be harping on the gay marriage thing in this thread. It is on my mind lately. California just struck down their marriage statute today as "unconstitutional".)

The problem with prosecuting such marriages is that in most cases, there is no piece of paper that says they are married to more than one person. That makes it very difficult to prove. The other "wives" sometimes apply for welfare as "single mothers". So many men have "one wife" and many "de facto" wives. Yes, you can prosecute underage marriages, but you can't if the parents give their consent. Most of these girls are children of church members. I suppose you might be able to prosecute under child-abuse laws (no parent can give consent to that) if you can prove it, but if all involved are adults.....it's a tough case to legally prove.

One way or another, it's a big mess that won't be sorted out quickly or cheaply.
Yes I agree! Chalk up the new supreme court law overturning the people's majority vote here in Calif. for same sex marriages yesterday.
Now the courts just usurp the people. :swoon:
ps. the majority of those voting to overturn it were put in by Republicans, not democrats - that shocked me the most.

That just opened up the door to marriage of ANYONE (and God forbid, "anything"). Once one barrier is pushed down, the next is waiting in line to take its place for acceptance.

End of time signs folks - sorry, but I think the world is right now being primed and prepped for full rejection & rebellion of God's truth like never before; worldwide.
I pray I'm wrong.

[bill16652]

Polygamy is demeaning to women and against the law. Canada has allowed this kind of practice to go on for way too long in Bounty, BC. some of the same people were involved.

There is no easy way to enforce the law, but polygamy is a way of life for much of the world. As America absorbs the world's populations, it is the time now to send a clear message that polygamy is against the cultural values of this country.

Sure it is heart-wrenching to see children being torn apart form the only family that they know and love, and there are no doubt many fine values in these types of communities.
But there is no place for this kind of practice in America. It fundamentally violates the dignity and inalienable human rights of these girls. There are good reasons that polygamy is against the law. Whether they have been given enough freedom to realize it or not, this is a form of abuse.

Canada itself is afraid to challenge the Bounty commune, for Canadian marriage law has become too diluted down and there is a good chance that the challenge will result in polygamy standing. One can only hope that America has tetained enough of its culture to put an end to this type of practice.

We just don't need to tolerate polygamy and firty year olds marrying kids.Going along the lines of your reasoning I would say that same sex marruiages or unions shopuld also be illegial as scripturally that is wrong whereas polygamy isnt. Thats the problem the laws have been confused and so has scripture

[JDIBe]

Yes I agree! Chalk up the new supreme court law overturning the people's majority vote here in Calif. for same sex marriages yesterday.
Now the courts just usurp the people. :swoon:
ps. the majority of those voting to overturn it were put in by Republicans, not democrats - that shocked me the most.

That just opened up the door to marriage of ANYONE (and God forbid, "anything"). Once one barrier is pushed down, the next is waiting in line to take its place for acceptance.

End of time signs folks - sorry, but I think the world is right now being primed and prepped for full rejection & rebellion of God's truth like never before; worldwide.
I pray I'm wrong.

Not all slopes are slippery. However, what concerns me most about this situation, it that every argument put forth in defense of gay marriages I have heard equally applies to polygamist ones! In the majority opinion, Chief Justice Ronald George said....

"We therefore conclude that in view of the substance and significance of the fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship, the California Constitution properly must be interpreted to guarantee this basic civil right to all Californians..."

Apparently the right to form a family relationship with whoever you choose is a "fundamental constitutional right". I don't see how you can take that POV and honestly and fairly (and more importantly, legally) deny a polygamist group the same "fundamental right". The slope here is indeed slippery and the case law is building by the second.

I think in the long term, the best alterative might be "covenant marriages" as proposed in OK, and other states. Perhaps a covenant married couple could wear two bands on their finger. That would distinguish who is married in the conventional sense and looks upon marriage as a covenant before God, and who is participating in a civil union of sorts.

Whether or not this signals the end of the world, I don't know. I sincerely hope it is not one signal of the beginning of the end of us. The OT is full of examples of what happens to nations that turn their backs on God....

[ladyt28]

A state that truly understands individual and states rights:clap:If they had done a proper investigation to begin with noone wouldf now be questioning but to sweep up the innocent along with the guilty goes against everything this country stqands for.

If they "charge" CPS then they better be ready to charge their own judges too since removals don't happen without authorization from the court.

[Shanagal]

I believe that if child abuse practices and children being married to men were the norm in the situation, then yes it should have been done. But as to polygamy (which my husband would never do)...If 2 people of the same sex can get married and live as "husband and wife" with the law on their side, then if a man wants more than one wife and the women don't have a problem with it, then let them. In most every major religious writings men had more than one wife, but in all of them same sex unions were an abomination.

Just my thoughts at the moment :)

[SolomonVII]

I agree that that is the way that the law is going. If two men, then why not two men and a woman? Or two women and a man? Don't bisexuals have equal rights too?
Or a whole group of people for that matter?

However, as a conservative, I understand it as my right, and my democratic privelege, and my responsibility, to speak for marriage as it has been defined in our countries for the last few millenia anyways.

The idea that harems were no longer going to be legally sanctioned by either secular or ecclesiastical authorities demonstrates progress in our spiritual and social development as a people. It reflects our increased understanding of the dignity and personhood of women as individuals in their own right, and not chattel as was once the assumption of the ancient world, and is the assumption on which polygamy is based in too.

Do we really want to step back and regress to those times again? This is a mockery of the idea of equal human rights.

[SharonL]

What would you say if your tax money paid for child molestation, supporting leaders in high class while the rest of the clan suffer, brainwashing of all members, rape of minors, abuse of children, kicking boys out so they won't be competition for the dirty old men.

Well we are paying for it every day - the men claim one wife and the rest are on welfare calling it 'bleeding of the beast.'

They are brainwashed - they lie about everything - the authorities had to take the children away because they were told to lie about everything as long as they were with their so called mothers.

The mothers allowed their 11 - 12 - 13 year olds to be molested. Under the name of religion.

There was abuse - there have been over 40 underage children who are pregnant or have given birth - but every member says 'nooooo this doesn't happen.'

The wife of the man in charge now while the leader is in jail tells some horror stories - she escaped with 8 children, the babies are not allowed to cry - if they cry they are held under water and spanked until they are to exhausted to cry any more - this from one of the wives of the leader - she saw her son kicked across the room - one woman escaped who has a handicapped child - she was told to just let him starve and die - she left with the child. Where are the old people - they found papers of how to administer poison - why did they have that.

Welfare is supporting the cult in Texas, Utah and all over - I don't want my tax money going for this abuse.

What about the children's rights - they have rights also that they never even know about or get to use.

The girls are forced to give birth from age 13 - up - by the time they are 21 they have 5 or 6 children - where do they go then - what do they do - they are stuck. They know nothing else.

Texas has had undercover agent in there for four years - they have much more on them than is being told. The lawyers are picking away at it trying to make it the fault of the State.

They are taught that black people are black because they sinned and God turned them black - one woman who escaped was behind a black person in a line at the grocery store, she paniced because she was taught that if she stands close to them that it will turn them black also.

Is this called rights to stand by and watch as all these wrong teachings are forced on people who are too brain washed to move away from the whole sick mess.

Before you feel sorry for them - find out what is coming out - it is a sick, sick mess.

[Nadiine]

To reply to Sharon's post above me, good heavens - I hadn't heard all those things. In fact, I never hear about this story anymore on the news at all.

I understood why they took the kids at the start & altho I do care very much about our rights, I also care about the rights of the children they felt needed to be rescued or investigated.

I said it before and I say it again, this was a cult compound it was not a regular 'leave it to Beaver' suburbia house they stormed into & took people from. This is not a normal situation.
And from the looks of the other recent stories on 2 other cult compounds, these people have a high rate of PERVERSION using God's name as a shield to get away with it.

I'm bothered by the whole koolaid drinking cult compound people - if adults want to live that way, thats one thing but it's another thing to bring vulnerable children into the mix where they're susceptible to abuses of every kind and where perverts are hidden and enabled.

I believe that if child abuse practices and children being married to men were the norm in the situation, then yes it should have been done. But as to polygamy (which my husband would never do)...If 2 people of the same sex can get married and live as "husband and wife" with the law on their side, then if a man wants more than one wife and the women don't have a problem with it, then let them. In most every major religious writings men had more than one wife, but in all of them same sex unions were an abomination.

Just my thoughts at the moment :)
Well, in the OT God did allow concubines & polygamy but it was never His design or will. As per the NT, it's not allowed... but then, how many in the world go by God's word? Without the Bible (God's moral compass), if you legalize gay marriage, I don't see why polygamy wouldn't be next on a secular level.

As far as I'm concerned, the world is getting so immoral and depraved around us that the church is becomming desensitized to evil - even to the point of accepting sin becuz it's gotten so common.
The world's standards can and will lower, but a Christian's should not.
Romans 12:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=29&version=50&context=verse)
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

We either stand on the truth of God or we let go and start drifting to follow the world in compromise and double-mindedness.
By faith, I'm standing on His truth - I don't care WHAT the world condones as moral. Culture doesn't dictate morality, God does.

John 15:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
If you were of the world, the world would love its own.
Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

[dayhiker]

I agree with the argument that this totally overrides the bases for our government. This is like if something is wrong in a town the government comes in a totally dismantals the town, sperates everyone and does a big investigation for years then charges people.

I think they have like 48 hrs to fine charges .. but that hasn't been done.
I think they are suppose to have probably cause but at beast there was one person they had probably cause on and they still don't know who that is.

What happened to freedom of religion in this country.
What happened to innocent till proven guilty?
Where are the christians who want to have the right to raise their own children as they see fit ... this say we don't have the right.

I'm very sad at how this country is going!

That being said, I'm sure this group of men lorded if over the women and children adn caused a lot of pain, but I don't see it as the government's job to keep people from pain. If people should be locked up for that, then everyone I know should be put in jail!

dayhiker

[Nadiine]

I
What happened to freedom of religion in this country.
What happened to innocent till proven guilty?
Where are the christians who want to have the right to raise their own children as they see fit ... this say we don't have the right.

We have limited freedom of religion - and thankfully it stops when it involves illegal activity and abuses against the innocent.
I have yet to see where freedom of religion should include abuse as kids are hidden away inside a huge cult compound without any way to escape.

I'm more sickened at the thought of a country that would put "freedom" over care and aid for people to walk away when they see signs of trouble to let them continue to be abused.

I see both sides to this like I had said - becuz this is a cult compound, not leave it to Beaver's suburbia household. The situation is unique and so is the circumstance.

[KarrieTex]

We have limited freedom of religion - and thankfully it stops when it involves illegal activity and abuses against the innocent.
I have yet to see where freedom of religion should include abuse as kids are hidden away inside a huge cult compound without any way to escape.

I'm more sickened at the thought of a country that would put "freedom" over care and aid for people to walk away when they see signs of trouble to let them continue to be abused.

I see both sides to this like I had said - becuz this is a cult compound, not leave it to Beaver's suburbia household. The situation is unique and so is the circumstance.

Then why is the Fed's not raiding Scientology homes and what nots? This was a wrong from the over reaction to a hoax to the criminal holding by CPS of an adult to the blackmail of the parents.

[Nadiine]

Then why is the Fed's not raiding Scientology homes and what nots? This was a wrong from the over reaction to a hoax to the criminal holding by CPS of an adult to the blackmail of the parents.
I didn't say we have NO freedom of religion - and I didn't say we have complete freedom of religion. I said freedom has limitations, it is bound by certain laws.

You can be free to worship and choose your faith, but when your beliefs start harming and abusing people or things, then there's a restriction that comes into play.

I don't know why feds aren't raiding or ARE raiding places - I'm simply stating a general fact that freedoms still have restrictions; what the civil govt.'s do and don't do isn't for me to know.

These cult compounds have a bit of history with abuses to people (Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate etc.). Using some extra caution when they saw red flags at yet another compound doesn't much bother me to be honest.

[KarrieTex]

OK, I am glad they did this. Court in Texas declared that CPS had no right to take the kids.

[nomoreillusions]

Religious belief and expression is guarenteed by the constitution, however, it must still conform to civil law.

1. polygamy, like it or not, is illegal in the US.
2. like it or not, there is a legal age of concent and a legal age of marriage
3. like it or not, a husband can legally be accused of raping his wife if the sex was not consentual, marriage or no.
4. Child abuse is illegal

From all the news reports so far, the compound was breaking numerous laws and engaging in child abuse, both against girls and boys.

Yes, there is freedom of religion, but no one would say a person's religious freedoms are being taken away if they were arrested for stoning adulterers or hey, how about human sacrifice? Religious freedom and all, shouldn't people be allowed?

But we live in a country both of freedoms and of laws. We also live in a country that freely allows emmigration. If you feel that in order to fulfill the requirements of your faith that you must break the law, then you either have to accept that legal retributions for breaking the law, or you are free to emmigrate to a country that would offer you those freedoms that you want.

That the government generally mucks things up is not really in question. That they will no doubt make numerous mistakes in this, as in others things, is pretty much expected. But does that mean the government should just give up even attempting to enforce law? Of course not.

They are being given trials - they have lawyers. This is not some sort of witchhunt. It is civil law being enforced upon citizens of this land.

Basically, if you don't like the law, you can work to change them, but you can't just IGNORE them and claim 'oppression'

[KarrieTex]

From Texas news reports that are local and not on the national level...the sexual abuse issue is a witch hunt and ignoring state law.

One thing that is not being told on a national level is the fact that at 17 you can engage in sexual activity as an adult. They are finding the majority of the teens were that age and thus held illegally. They are also holding ADULTS as children because they chose not to believe that this people are age wise adults.

The CPS is also blackmailing parents in order for them to get their children back. AND Yes they did break Constitutional Law.

Texas is not a liberal state. We are very conservative and very much Pro-Constitutional. For the court to rule this way says a lot against CPS and the authorities up there.

[Nadiine]

Too True to the previous post :thumbsup:

I don't know what legalities there were involved with all this, all I know is, if I were one of the kids, I would pray for somebody to rescue me from any abuse.
If it was illegal or deemed wrong, I HOPE at least 1 child was helped somehow by it.

[KarrieTex]

And the parents that had their children ripped from them because they made the choice to believe in a different faith than the norm?

I am never going to be in agreement with what this State did. There were other ways to handle it that were healthier and more supportative to removing them from this belief system without the damage they inflicted.

[Nadiine]

And the parents that had their children ripped from them because they made the choice to believe in a different faith than the norm?

I am never going to be in agreement with what this State did. There were other ways to handle it that were healthier and more supportative to removing them from this belief system without the damage they inflicted.
Well fine then karrie - I disagree with you where cult compounds are concerned along w/ polygamy & where it looks like kids are being abused.
From the start I always felt that the children that were breastfeeding should stay.

Their religion wasn't attacked or taken away from them and it had nothing to do w/ Mormonism - IF it was, they'de of been raided long long ago.
It's obvious this had nothing to do w/ religion, but with the children they saw when they investigated and the lies they were told.

Maybe now they can all be taken back home to their loving compound and more bones can be broken without police interference
:thumbsup:

[KarrieTex]

Bones broken....sigh....again media not in this state reporting stuff that isn't true.

out of almost 500 kids about 75 had broken bones at one point or another. guess what that can be seen in a normal public school...and that was thrown out as nonviable info.

Again, it boils down to a woman making a prank call about a domestic abuse from a 17 yr old, who by Texas law is a legal adult. They broke the constitution both on a state and federal level when they raided with tanks and anti terrorist weaponary. I am more concerned about rights being trampled on then by what the society on a norm doesn't agree with faith wise.

And before you start....why aren't you behind storming Scientology homes where kids are not only subjected to no medical attention but bizarre rituals and then you have Muslims who are traditionalists who marry their children younger than 12 off to men or how about those involved in New Age faiths that holistically try and cure their children of different illness which cause more harm?

[SharonL]

It's not over yet - they still have enough evidence in many cases to charge them for various crimes.

I'm not for just letting them all go back to their "loving homes" - while our tax money goes to support them as they say 'bleeding the beast" and I do live in Texas. This is not a healthy situation - the wife of the man in charge now who escaped with 8 children tells of horror stories which should not be overlooked.

It's funny they can produce birth certificates to get the welfare, but can't produce them to prove who the children belong to. It is a sick mess. I don't think you have heard the end of it yet - there will be many, many law suits so they can "bleed the beast" more. Those children still need protection.

There is much abuse going on - all they need is for some of them to turn and tell the truth, but they are afraid and so brainwashed that they can't even talk a senseable sentence. They are still charged with welfare fraud - I hope they cut off the welfare and they can go out and work like everyone else and stop robbing the system.

It is not the responsibility of the citizens of Texas to pour money into that sick society so they can do their own thing while they "bleed the beast."

[SharonL]

I agree with the argument that this totally overrides the bases for our government. This is like if something is wrong in a town the government comes in a totally dismantals the town, sperates everyone and does a big investigation for years then charges people.

I think they have like 48 hrs to fine charges .. but that hasn't been done.
I think they are suppose to have probably cause but at beast there was one person they had probably cause on and they still don't know who that is.

What happened to freedom of religion in this country.
What happened to innocent till proven guilty?
Where are the christians who want to have the right to raise their own children as they see fit ... this say we don't have the right.

I'm very sad at how this country is going!

That being said, I'm sure this group of men lorded if over the women and children adn caused a lot of pain, but I don't see it as the government's job to keep people from pain. If people should be locked up for that, then everyone I know should be put in jail!

dayhiker

Do you agree that our tax dollars should be supporting this sick mess? Because it is - that is how they live - one man claims one wife and the rest are on welfare which they have to give to the leader.

[Nadiine]

It's not over yet - they still have enough evidence in many cases to charge them for various crimes.

I'm not for just letting them all go back to their "loving homes" - while our tax money goes to support them as they say 'bleeding the beast" and I do live in Texas. This is not a healthy situation - the wife of the man in charge now who escaped with 8 children tells of horror stories which should not be overlooked.

It's funny they can produce birth certificates to get the welfare, but can't produce them to prove who the children belong to. It is a sick mess. I don't think you have heard the end of it yet - there will be many, many law suits so they can "bleed the beast" more. Those children still need protection.

There is much abuse going on - all they need is for some of them to turn and tell the truth, but they are afraid and so brainwashed that they can't even talk a senseable sentence. They are still charged with welfare fraud - I hope they cut off the welfare and they can go out and work like everyone else and stop robbing the system.

It is not the responsibility of the citizens of Texas to pour money into that sick society so they can do their own thing while they "bleed the beast."
Maybe call your senators or representatives and pitch a fit??

[JPPT1974]

Well they didn't have any guns on the premise
Not yet anyway but...they, the authorities
Should had enter the premise in a way to
Avoid a scene and not scare those poor children.
Like they did as these kids didn't know who these cops were? They viewed the police as bad people with guns.

[Teh0bb3s]

26/50 This is irrelevant to my interests.

[ladyt28]

OK, I am glad they did this. Court in Texas declared that CPS had no right to take the kids.

The COURT is who Authorized the removals!! CPS does NOT have the authority to "remove" anyone without a petition authorized by a COURT. What part of this do you fail to understand??

[KarrieTex]

Can you not be rude?

The appelate court ruled that it was an illegal action. I also believe that in texas they don't need the court per say to sign off on immediate danger.

[ladyt28]

but I don't see it as the government's job to keep people from pain. If people should be locked up for that, then everyone I know should be put in jail!

dayhiker

Really? Then who's responsibility is it to protect the 6 year old who has a venereal disease? Or the 87 year old with dementia who is being kept in her bedroom and denied medical care? Regardless of how people feel about this particular case, there are vulnerable children and adults who ONLY have the "government" to save them. If you have a better plan, then Please develop and present it.

[KarrieTex]

OK one you need to get your facts straight. VD and a 6 yr old is not a true report. Also if you are going to deal with dementia then may I also point you to Scientologoists who also don't believe in medical help on that level. AND some patients with dementia do not need medical treatment per say. My grandmother was one of those. Physically she was in good health. There is no treatment for advanced stages of dementia until the body starts to not function. Which I have not heard anything about in our local news or papers.

AND I was right thank you

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080522/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

In the state of Texas the CPS can remove children without court premission when there is immediate danger which it failed to prove thus it was an ILLEGAL seizure.

[ladyt28]

I have dealt with 6 year olds who had VD - I never insinuated that it was a fact in this case. It was a question in response to a statement regarding how the government should not be about protecting people. And while some with dementia may not yet need medical care, the ones who I have dealt with who are being kept in locked rooms aren't being kept that way because the individual wanted it that way - they were being held against their will and were being denied the care they needed for a heart condition and diabetes. As far as Scientology, if a person who was deemed medically and legally incompetent was being denied needed medical care, and they did not have a POA that clearly outlined their wishes before becoming incapacitated, then a petition would be filed asking for a guardian to be appointed who would in turn authorize that medical care IF the court ruled to appoint the guardian after a hearing - at least in my state.

As far as Texas not mandating that a court authorize ALL petitions, that sounds like something you all may want to change. CPS workers should never have the authority to single-handedly decide on a removal without authorization - we manage to pull it off in a timely manner here in Michigan and on other states so I know it can be done.

And I apologize - I let my frustration get the best of me and I was rude. I am sorry about that.

[SharonL]

Did you all see the pictures on TV today of Warren Jeffs, the leader of this sick mess, kissing a 12 year old on their "anniversary" - they are married.

I get very upset also - these people lie - they give wrong names - teach their children to lie - many have the same last names, some don't even know their last name - they can live with a mother and dozens of children - then they give the mother to another man and they take on that name.

They have birth certificates to collect the welfare - but when they try to prove who they belong to - there doesn't seem to be any birth certificates.

This is a sick society and my heart breaks for those children who will have no choice but to continue in this life. - They make them start having babies around 12 - 13 and by the time they are 21 they have 4 or 5 kids - where do they go - what do they do - the wife of the man in charge now escaped with 8 children and the horror stories she tells would break your heart - they all look like zombies - can't even carry on a conversation for fear of saying something they will get beaten for.

And by the way - where are all the old people - you don't see any. Where are the handicapped children - you don't see any - one woman escaped with her handicapped child - the leader told her to just let him starve and die. There is more going on there than we know about and to think our tax money is paying for it makes me furious.

[T3h0bb3s]

Where Is Your God Now?

[Rochir]

My viewpoint is that they trampled the rights of a lot of people and removed forcibly over 400 children and caused untild suffering. ....

I believe they did the right and only GOOD thing to do! :thumbsup:

[Izdaari]

I believe they did the right and only GOOD thing to do! :thumbsup:
Probably so. But they were on shaky legal ground.

[KarrieTex]

They ARE on shaky legal ground and constitutional ground

[Izdaari]

They ARE on shaky legal ground and constitutional ground
I can't disagree with that. But I can't disagree with Rochir either. That makes it a very tough decision. :confused:

[KarrieTex]

My whole thing is they could have done this correctly and not stepped on the constitution or broke state law.

They did not.

They also could have handled this better but when they are illegally taking children that are barely a week old away from mothers who are legal adults in CPS custody then I have a big issue with that.

[enzane1]

Who would want to have more than one wife, one is as much trouble as one could handle. If these people looked and acted like everyone else, the whole country would be behind them. People fear what they don't understand. Don't worry, the government will protect you from yourself. I love this country and the freedoms we used to have.

[Simon_Templar]

Why was it the only good thing they could do?

[Nadiine]

They also could have handled this better but when they are illegally taking children that are barely a week old away from mothers who are legal adults in CPS custody then I have a big issue with that.
That was what I took issue with - the infants. I stated up front that I think they could have been left until it was sorted out.

[KarrieTex]

I would have no issue with any of it if they had conducted themselves legally and correctly.

Now we have a major issue with rights being stomped on.

[JDIBe]

As much as I dislike the teachings of this polygamist sect, if they found no evidence of physical abuse, I don't think wholescale removal of ALL the