The Sign Gifts

[cactusj]

How many of you believe in the sign gifts being used in the church today? (tongues, slain in Spirit, etc)

[TwinCrier]

I not only don't believe they are being used in the church today, i don't believe some of them ever existed in the church before. I don't read of anyone passing out of laughing hysterically in the bible.

[Victorian Rose]

How many of you believe in the sign gifts being used in the church today? (tongues, slain in Spirit, etc)
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive and well.

[AVBunyan]

How many of you believe in the sign gifts being used in the church today? (tongues, slain in Spirit, etc)
The Gifts



All right – tongues – easy if you take the Bible as it stands and understand how God deals with Israel as a nation. Most make issue of prayer languages, interpreter or not and never cover what tongues are really for. Let’s get down to the basics. Remember, God deals with Israel as a nation differently than he deals with the body of Christ today.


According to the Bible tongues are for a sign (1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,…). The verse didn’t say tongues were for your personal edification, prayer time, public worship service, etc. Tongues are for a sign. Now, who require signs in the Bible? The Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,….). Why did the Jews require a sign? It was a part of their history. When God and Moses had their conversation at the burning bush Moses said (and I paraphrase), “They are not going to believe me.” The Lord said, “I will give you some signs to authenticate your ministry.” Moses went to them and did signs and wonders and they believed. When the Lord came to Israel in the gospels he came with signs to authenticate his ministry and some believed. In fact the Pharisees came seeking a sign - Mat 12:38 “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.” After Christ arose he gave the apostles the signs to authenticate their ministries they went about doing signs and wonders.

Next, tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22. This is the clincher. Moses went to Jews who were unbelievers of his ministry. Jesus went to an unbelieving Israel with signs. Paul went to unbelieving Israel with signs. Also, the Jews were “unbelievers” in the sense that they did not believe that God would not bless the Gentiles. In Acts 2 where the signs and wonders took place Peter preached to thousands of “unbelieving Jews” and they believed after the message with signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).

Today tongues are used in churches for believers – in other words done for the edification of the speaker or hearer, which is contrary to I Cor. 1:22 and 14:22 (note both verses are 22 – can’t beat the book!)

Now, when you use your “tongues” in your church service are there any unbelieving Jews there? Maybe and maybe not but most likely not. When you are using “tongues” in your private prayer closet are there any unbelieving Jews there?

Let’s wrap it up – When God deals with Israel as a nation he uses signs and wonders as authentication. God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today – God is dealing with individuals. Tongues are for a sign and to unbelievers, not believers. Tongues are a sign of judgment to the unbelieving Jews. Also, unbelievers are “believing “ Jews in Acts who were didn’t believe the Gentiles could get in on the blessings.

Tongue speakers are not following this today one bit. I really don’t care about how good tongues feel to you and how excited you get when you utter your “tongues”. When you pray and speak in tongues are you doing it as a sign to unbelieving Jews? I don’t care if you saw millions at once speaking in tongues. What you saw were millions of deceived people led by an unclean spirit. They may be nice, polite, Bible-quoting people but they were deceived while they were nice, polite and quoting scripture.

I know you have a lot of verses you get from I Cor 14 but remember Paul is rebuking a carnal church of a misuse of a doctrine to the point where he calls them children in malice. Why you think you can find anything positive there to support your tongues beats the fire out of me.

Don’t judge tongues by your experience – judge your experience by the Bible. Anybody can think they speak in tongues. I’ve even seen people “practicing” their tongues so they wouldn’t lose them! Please, people! The great men of God of old wouldn’t and didn’t mess with that stuff for a minute and God used any one of them more then 10,000 tongue speakers today.

But you say, “Yes, but I still know what I know and I speak in tongues and others do so that proves it!” Fine, base your doctrine on feelings and experience and ignore the plain teaching of scripture.

Again, one last time with feeling – UNTILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DEALS WITH ISRAEL AS A NATION DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY THEN YOU CAN FORGET UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS!

May God bless :wave:

[Perceivence]

Yes, I believe that all the Gifts of the Spirit, sign or otherwise, are active today.

Before my fellow Charismatic brethren (and sisteren) descend on AVBunyan's post above like a pack of predators on a prey, I have this to say.

Bunyan, recheck your reasoning.

Thank you. :D

[Perceivence]

And oh, one more thing.

Is Bunyan's post representative of the typical Cessationist argument?

[AVBunyan]

Yes, I believe that all the Gifts of the Spirit, sign or otherwise, are active today.

Before my fellow Charismatic brethren (and sisteren) descend on AVBunyan's post above like a pack of predators on a prey, I have this to say.

Bunyan, recheck your reasoning.

Thank you. :D
Thanks - but I've rechecked it over 20 years ago...
And haven't budged since :wave:

[TheScottsMen]

AVBunyan -
Great post and well studied!;) I'm guessing your Premil - Acts 2 Dispen?

[TwinCrier]

Great post AVBunyan!!! Excellent use of God's word to explain truth.

[twistedsketch]

Even in light of AVBunyan's post here, I don't see anything wrong with using tounges properly, such as in the mission field. If God wants to use that gift to enable His people to speak the Good News to a tribe as in Acts 2, I have no problems with that.

Furthermore, if we read on to the end of 1 Cor 14, we find these commands in verses 27 and 28: "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." And then in verses 39 and 40, we find: "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way."

[Harry the Heretic]

And oh, one more thing.

Is Bunyan's post representative of the typical Cessationist argument?
Many will also use 1 Cor 13:8-10,

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

"perfect" being interpreted as the completed scripture. I do not hold this view, but find myself more in line with AVBunyan.

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan -
Great post and well studied!;) I'm guessing your Premil - Acts 2 Dispen?
Thanks for the kind words -
I'm definitely Premil - IN fact I have a post out on Eschatology asking anyone to show me anywhere where the body of Christ is in the book of Revelation - there is the issue - no body of Christ in Revelation - no worries about us going through the tribulation :P


Acts 2 Dispen - lean more towards Paul getting full revelation of body of Christ later in Acts but not revealed until after Acts 28 - Are we still friends :D

God bless

[AVBunyan]

Great post AVBunyan!!! Excellent use of God's word to explain truth.
Thank ye kindly sir :clap: - the Bible can be so simple if we just take the verses as they stand to who they are directed to.

May God bless :wave:

[TheScottsMen]

Thanks for the kind words -
I'm definitely Premil - IN fact I have a post out on Eschatology asking anyone to show me anywhere where the body of Christ is in the book of Revelation - there is the issue - no body of Christ in Revelation - no worries about us going through the tribulation :P


Acts 2 Dispen - lean more towards Paul getting full revelation of body of Christ later in Acts but not revealed until after Acts 28 - Are we still friends :D

God bless
Haha, of course we are, Mid-acts dispen here;) There are more of us (Acts 9 & 28) every day I noticed:)

[Perceivence]

Many will also use 1 Cor 13:8-10,

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

"perfect" being interpreted as the completed scripture. I do not hold this view, but find myself more in line with AVBunyan.Really?

Thank you.

[Perceivence]

Thanks - but I've rechecked it over 20 years ago...
And haven't budged since :wave:Really? So it wouldn't make much use for me to try and point out the holes to you then, would it?

[AVBunyan]

Really? So it wouldn't make much use for me to try and point out the holes to you then, would it?
Go for it - I'm easy to get along with - I don't bite - I've got more grace thaan some think I do :D

God bless

[Perceivence]

Go for it - I'm easy to get along with - I don't bite - I've got more grace thaan some think I do :D

God bless
Okay then. :) I'll get to it later, in my next post. Hopefully that won't be too long from now....

[Perceivence]

All right – tongues – easy if you take the Bible as it stands and understand how God deals with Israel as a nation. Most make issue of prayer languages, interpreter or not and never cover what tongues are really for. Let’s get down to the basics. Remember, God deals with Israel as a nation differently than he deals with the body of Christ today.Okay.

According to the Bible tongues are for a sign (1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,…). The verse didn’t say tongues were for your personal edification, prayer time, public worship service, etc. Tongues are for a sign.Nor did it say that tongues are only for a sign.

Look at the context. Paul was speaking in relation to its usage in the gathering of the saints - what tongues are during a congregation as opposed to prophecy (1 Cor 14: 19, 23 - 25). Elsewhere, he affirms that it has other uses:

1. Edification of the speaker when uninterpreted

1 Corinthians 14: 4 (NIV)
4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

2. Edification of the church when interpreted.

1 Corinthians 14: 5 (NIV)
5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR%2B14&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NIV&x=22&y=6#footnote_878711724_3)] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR%2B14&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NIV&x=22&y=6#footnote_878711724_4)] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

3. As a sign to unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14: 22 (NIV)22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

The majority of the remainder of your post hinges on this point, so I don't really have to deal with it separately...but I will.

Now, who require signs in the Bible? The Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,….).Wasn't the Corinthian church a Gentile church? Wouldn't the reference to tongues being a sign for unbelievers 1 Cor 14: 22 then refer to Gentiles as well as Jews if not Gentiles alone?

Why did the Jews require a sign? It was a part of their history. When God and Moses had their conversation at the burning bush Moses said (and I paraphrase), “They are not going to believe me.” The Lord said, “I will give you some signs to authenticate your ministry.” Moses went to them and did signs and wonders and they believed. When the Lord came to Israel in the gospels he came with signs to authenticate his ministry and some believed. In fact the Pharisees came seeking a sign - Mat 12:38 “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.” After Christ arose he gave the apostles the signs to authenticate their ministries they went about doing signs and wonders. I see.

Next, tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22. This is the clincher. Moses went to Jews who were unbelievers of his ministry. Jesus went to an unbelieving Israel with signs. Paul went to unbelieving Israel with signs. Also, the Jews were “unbelievers” in the sense that they did not believe that God would not bless the Gentiles. In Acts 2 where the signs and wonders took place Peter preached to thousands of “unbelieving Jews” and they believed after the message with signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).

Today tongues are used in churches for believers – in other words done for the edification of the speaker or hearer, which is contrary to I Cor. 1:22 and 14:22 (note both verses are 22 – can’t beat the book!) !?

You're taking it out of context! The verse says that it is a sign for unbelievers and not for believers. Not that it isn't for believers at all, but it's not a sign for them. So it may have other uses to believers but not as a sign in the sense Paul means it.

Now, when you use your “tongues” in your church service are there any unbelieving Jews there? Maybe and maybe not but most likely not. When you are using “tongues” in your private prayer closet are there any unbelieving Jews there?

Let’s wrap it up – When God deals with Israel as a nation he uses signs and wonders as authentication. God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today – God is dealing with individuals. Tongues are for a sign and to unbelievers, not believers. Tongues are a sign of judgment to the unbelieving Jews. Also, unbelievers are “believing “ Jews in Acts who were didn’t believe the Gentiles could get in on the blessings....

Tongue speakers are not following this today one bit. I really don’t care about how good tongues feel to you and how excited you get when you utter your “tongues”. When you pray and speak in tongues are you doing it as a sign to unbelieving Jews? I don’t care if you saw millions at once speaking in tongues. What you saw were millions of deceived people led by an unclean spirit. They may be nice, polite, Bible-quoting people but they were deceived while they were nice, polite and quoting scripture.It would be prudent about what you call an unclean spirit.

I know you have a lot of verses you get from I Cor 14 but remember Paul is rebuking a carnal church of a misuse of a doctrine to the point where he calls them children in malice. Why you think you can find anything positive there to support your tongues beats the fire out of me.Rebukes are often laden with truth and instruction. When taken in the proper light, they often serve to edify rather than to tear down. Just because Paul was scolding them for misusing something doesn't mean that all he says while scolding is bad. There's the "You did something wrong" scolding and the "You made a mistake here. What you should've done is such and such because of so and so" scolding. 1 Corinthians is the latter.

Don’t judge tongues by your experience – judge your experience by the Bible. Anybody can think they speak in tongues. I’ve even seen people “practicing” their tongues so they wouldn’t lose them! Please, people! The great men of God of old wouldn’t and didn’t mess with that stuff for a minute and God used any one of them more then 10,000 tongue speakers today.

But you say, “Yes, but I still know what I know and I speak in tongues and others do so that proves it!” Fine, base your doctrine on feelings and experience and ignore the plain teaching of scripture.

Again, one last time with feeling – UNTILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DEALS WITH ISRAEL AS A NATION DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY THEN YOU CAN FORGET UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS!

May God bless :wave:God bless you too! :wave:

Thanks for sharing that. I've always wondered as to the Cessationist perspective on this issue.

I do hope that I was successful in pointing out where I think you went wrong. I look forward to your replies. :)

P.S.: You only talked about tongues. That's not the only 'sign gift'...is it?

[Harry the Heretic]

Thanks for the kind words -
I'm definitely Premil - IN fact I have a post out on Eschatology asking anyone to show me anywhere where the body of Christ is in the book of Revelation - there is the issue - no body of Christ in Revelation - no worries about us going through the tribulation :P


Acts 2 Dispen - lean more towards Paul getting full revelation of body of Christ later in Acts but not revealed until after Acts 28 - Are we still friends :D

God bless
My elders said I'm not allowed to play with you anymore.:D

[AVBunyan]

1. Nor did it say that tongues are only for a sign.

2. As a sign to unbelievers.

3. Wasn't the Corinthian church a Gentile church? Wouldn't the reference to tongues being a sign for unbelievers 1 Cor 14: 22 then refer to Gentiles as well as Jews if not Gentiles alone?

4. You're taking it out of context! The verse says that it is a sign for unbelievers and not for believers. Not that it isn't for believers at all, but it's not a sign for them. So it may have other uses to believers but not as a sign in the sense Paul means it.

5. Rebukes are often laden with truth and instruction. When taken in the proper light, they often serve to edify rather than to tear down. Just because Paul was scolding them for misusing something doesn't mean that all he says while scolding is bad. There's the "You did something wrong" scolding and the "You made a mistake here. What you should've done is such and such because of so and so" scolding. 1 Corinthians is the latter.

6. That's not the only 'sign gift'...is it?
Thanks for your thoughts - don't have much time so forgive if I dont' answer completely.

The key here is that whenever God deals with Israel he deals with them using signs and wonders - why? They walk by sight and not faith. Just run the references of signs and wonders through the scriptures. Israel always required signs - that's one of the reasons Jesus had signs - to authenticate his ministry - the same for Moses. When Jesus left the scene he left eh apostles with signs and wonders so the "Unbelieving Jews" would see that something was going on . When they refused to believe then the Getniles got in on the blessings. When the Gentiles (Corinthians) spoke in tongues then this was a "sign" to the Jews that the Gentiles were getting in on the blessing ad this was to provoke the Jews to jealously and to rebuke them for their unbelief.

So - to go to Corinthians 14 and look at the rules and rebukes it doesn't make a difference about that for the there were tongues and sings then and the issue for us is not the rules they were breaking "THEN" because the THEN had to do with the rebuking of Israel and not showing us the proper use of the tongues for TODAY.

The Jews were the unbelievers - God used the Jewish apostles first to authenticate the Holy Spirit's ministry to them - once they started to reject it then the Gentiles got in on the blessing and when the Gentiles got the tongues it was a for a rebuke to Israel that they were in disbelief and the Lord was fixing to put them on the back burner and move on to the Gentiles.

Now let's look at your points in light of the above:

1. If there was another reason for tongues then the scriptures would have said so. Take what is clear and revealed first.

2. The Jews were the unbelievers at that time. Not for us today - we are to walk by sight - lost folks don't come to know the Lord through signs today. The just shall live by faith - we are to walk and live by faith - not sight.

3. I trust you see where I'm coming now - the Gentiles had the gift as a rebuke to Israel WHO JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT GOD WOULD BRING THE GENTILES IN ON GOD'S BLESSINGS WHERE BEFORE THEY WERE LEFT OUT IN THE COLD.

4. I trust this makes more sense now.

5. Regardless if Paul was instructing also (which he was) - the purpose for the tongues was for the proper use at that time - not for today.

6. All gifts and signs are passed off - Once God put Israel on the back burner until the tribulation then the signs (healings, prophecies, etc.) went with them. Since the "perfect man" has come (Eph. 4) and the saint is complete in Christ (Col. 1) then the gifts and gifted men (eph. 4) are not needed anymore - we are all complete in Christ.

Well, gotta go - I could have done a bit better but off the top of my head that's all I can come up with at the moment.

God bless :clap:

[BT]

Nail on the head AV!

[Perceivence]

Thanks for your thoughts - don't have much time so forgive if I dont' answer completely.

The key here is that whenever God deals with Israel he deals with them using signs and wonders - why? They walk by sight and not faith. Just run the references of signs and wonders through the scriptures. Israel always required signs - that's one of the reasons Jesus had signs - to authenticate his ministry - the same for Moses. When Jesus left the scene he left eh apostles with signs and wonders so the "Unbelieving Jews" would see that something was going on . When they refused to believe then the Getniles got in on the blessings. When the Gentiles (Corinthians) spoke in tongues then this was a "sign" to the Jews that the Gentiles were getting in on the blessing ad this was to provoke the Jews to jealously and to rebuke them for their unbelief.I'll bear that in mind.

So - to go to Corinthians 14 and look at the rules and rebukes it doesn't make a difference about that for the there were tongues and sings then and the issue for us is not the rules they were breaking "THEN" because the THEN had to do with the rebuking of Israel and not showing us the proper use of the tongues for TODAY.Rebuking of Israel? Sign to the Jews to provoke them to jealousy and turn from their unbelief? Where are you getting this from?

The Jews were the unbelievers - God used the Jewish apostles first to authenticate the Holy Spirit's ministry to them - once they started to reject it then the Gentiles got in on the blessing and when the Gentiles got the tongues it was a for a rebuke to Israel that they were in disbelief and the Lord was fixing to put them on the back burner and move on to the Gentiles. So Israel isn't in unbelief now?

Weren't the Jews rejecting the gospel long before Peter got the vision saying that the gospel was for the Gentiles too?

Now let's look at your points in light of the above:

1. If there was another reason for tongues then the scriptures would have said so. Take what is clear and revealed first.And the scriptures did say so. I mentioned them in my last post, complete with reference verses.

2. The Jews were the unbelievers at that time. Not for us today - we are to walk by sight - lost folks don't come to know the Lord through signs today. The just shall live by faith - we are to walk and live by faith - not sight.The Jews were the unbelievers? Are you saying that the Gentiles were believers? So all the Gentiles believed? That there were no unbelieving Gentiles? That there were no unbelievers who were Gentiles?

3. I trust you see where I'm coming now - the Gentiles had the gift as a rebuke to Israel WHO JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT GOD WOULD BRING THE GENTILES IN ON GOD'S BLESSINGS WHERE BEFORE THEY WERE LEFT OUT IN THE COLD.Yes, I think I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from.... I still want to know where you get all this from, though.

4. I trust this makes more sense now.No, it doesn't. You haven't addressed this as yet. You said that tongues are not for believers but for unbelievers. Full stop. End of sentence.

That is taking it out of context. The passage does not say that.

5. Regardless if Paul was instructing also (which he was) - the purpose for the tongues was for the proper use at that time - not for today.I'm still trying to fully understand where you're coming from. I'm gonna try and describe what you're saying from what I've understood from you so far. Correct me where I'm wrong.

So you're saying that the sole purpose of Tongues is as a sign to unbelievers? You're also saying that the "unbelievers" there refers to the "unbelieving Jews", who were those Jews who didn't believe that God was opening his house to Gentiles now. And that the Gentiles only got that to provoke the Jews to jealousy so that they'd turn from their ways? And that now we don't have that gift because...the Jews have already been provoked to jealousy?

6. All gifts and signs are passed off - Once God put Israel on the back burner until the tribulation then the signs (healings, prophecies, etc.) went with them. Since the "perfect man" has come (Eph. 4) and the saint is complete in Christ (Col. 1) then the gifts and gifted men (eph. 4) are not needed anymore - we are all complete in Christ.Huh? You lost me there. Can you elaborate please?

Well, gotta go - I could have done a bit better but off the top of my head that's all I can come up with at the moment.

God bless :clap:Ok then. Looking forward to your reply!

[Blade]

Perceivence, wow wonderful job.

I to am lost with all this "Israel ,Jews". With the word going all around the world was the plan from the start. Jesus said himself "1st to the Jews" because at one point Christ called the gent's dogs and had no right to the childerns bread. But then after he died what did he say? Go into ALL THE WORLD and do what? But only for a short time and then all the power (Gifts) is gona go away? lol NO. It's no different now when Christ wants someone to GO and they say no he will pick someone else to go. Now thats just me being real simple.

I see Perfect man being used but this has nothing to do with gifts stopping. Now here are just three I can show more if you like.
JV Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



NIV Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.



YLT Ephesians 4:13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,

Now it is plan and simple that we are not there, yes Christ is the only perfect man but you really have to twist these verses to say all the gifts are stopped and it's untill we become one or a perfect man. The one part alone "till we all come to the unity of the faith" not yet. So you believe it has stopped well praise God.

[Blade]

How many of you believe in the sign gifts being used in the church today? (tongues, slain in Spirit, etc)
Well it looks like some here don't believe and some do. All I can say is yes I believe it is for his church today and everytime I take him at his word things happen everytime.

[TheScottsMen]

Then give all your money to the poor and follow him. But wait, you will not! Why? Because we must rightly divide the word of truth. Take God at His Word and take it literal where ever possible, but rightly divide it.

[Perceivence]

Perceivence, wow wonderful job.Thanks! :)

I to am lost with all this "Israel ,Jews". With the word going all around the world was the plan from the start. Jesus said himself "1st to the Jews" because at one point Christ called the gent's dogs and had no right to the childerns bread. But then after he died what did he say? Go into ALL THE WORLD and do what? But only for a short time and then all the power (Gifts) is gona go away? lol NO. It's no different now when Christ wants someone to GO and they say no he will pick someone else to go. Now thats just me being real simple.Lol

I'm wondering the same things, really. But it doesn't look like Bunyan's going to respond :(.

I see Perfect man being used but this has nothing to do with gifts stopping. Now here are just three I can show more if you like.
JV Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



NIV Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.



YLT Ephesians 4:13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,



Now it is plan and simple that we are not there, yes Christ is the only perfect man but you really have to twist these verses to say all the gifts are stopped and it's untill we become one or a perfect man. The one part alone "till we all come to the unity of the faith" not yet. So you believe it has stopped well praise God.
Thanks for your input.

I'm not entirely sure what that verse is saying, but I'd like to hear what Bunyan is proposing it to say.

[BT]

Hi Perceivence. I'm just wondering when you pray in tongues what language it is?

[AVBunyan]

I'm wondering the same things, really. But it doesn't look like Bunyan's going to respond :(.

I'm not entirely sure what that verse is saying, but I'd like to hear what Bunyan is proposing it to say.
Oh, don't count me out yet - been a busy week. To make it easier for both of us - what specifically do you want me to comment on. I just don't know if I can answer all your above response right now so...please forgive me. :sorry:

May God bless

[Perceivence]

Then give all your money to the poor and follow him. But wait, you will not! Why? Because we must rightly divide the word of truth. Take God at His Word and take it literal where ever possible, but rightly divide it.Huh?

Hi Perceivence. I'm just wondering when you pray in tongues what language it is?I dunno.

Oh, don't count me out yet - been a busy week. To make it easier for both of us - what specifically do you want me to comment on. I just don't know if I can answer all your above response right now so...please forgive me. :sorry:

May God bless Hey! I was beginning to worry! :)

Mainly, I wanted to know where the separation of gifts as sign gifts and non-sign gifts comes from.

[BT]

Would you be willing to meet with a linguist and have him figure out what language it is that you are speaking?

[AVBunyan]

Huh?

I dunno.

Hey! I was beginning to worry! :)

Mainly, I wanted to know where the separation of gifts as sign gifts and non-sign gifts comes from.
Forgive me for being a "derpis" (family name for dumbo) - what are you referring to when you say "non-sign gifts".

Did I differrentiate between the two - sorry, been out a while - I'll try to review.

God bless http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

[Perceivence]

Would you be willing to meet with a linguist and have him figure out what language it is that you are speaking?Why?

Forgive me for being a "derpis" (family name for dumbo) - what are you referring to when you say "non-sign gifts".

Did I differrentiate between the two - sorry, been out a while - I'll try to review.

God bless http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gifI don't think you did. I assumed that since there are "sign gifts" then there are "non-sign gifts".

[BT]

Well if you knew what language you were speaking in you could go to the unsaved of that nationality and preach the Gospel to them in their native language. Which is what tongues was for... Since you have apparently been given this gift by the Holy Spirit, shouldn't you be using it to God's glory?

[Perceivence]

Well if you knew what language you were speaking in you could go to the unsaved of that nationality and preach the Gospel to them in their native language. Which is what tongues was for... Since you have apparently been given this gift by the Holy Spirit, shouldn't you be using it to God's glory?
. . .

1 Corinthians 14

[BT]

. . .

1 Corinthians 14
Yes! exactly! So head to the linguist. You might want to study 1 Corinthians 14 before you head out to the field though...

[AVBunyan]

When God is dealing with Israel as the gifts are in affect.

God is not dealing with Israelas a nation so none of the gifts are in affect today.

According to:Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

There are no "specil" folks or "gifted" folks these days. If you are saved then you are complete in Christ - you are lacking nothing. Nobody has anything special as compared to anybody else.

The "perfect man" of Eph 4:13 has come - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You are complete - no excuses - God has equippled you - now walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you have been called

God bless http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif.

[Perceivence]

I really don't mean to debate. I just want to thoroughly understand your point of view, so I have some more questions.

When God is dealing with Israel as the gifts are in affect.

God is not dealing with Israelas a nation so none of the gifts are in affect today.Do you have any scripture to support that God only uses gifts for the Israelites and that gifts are for the Israelites and no one else?

According to:Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what being complete in him has to do with the relevance of the Spiritual Gifts today.

There are no "specil" folks or "gifted" folks these days. If you are saved then you are complete in Christ - you are lacking nothing. Nobody has anything special as compared to anybody else.
Oh....

So you interpret being complete in Christ as being perfectly capable and able of doing any and everything as any other person?

The "perfect man" of Eph 4:13 has come - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You are complete - no excuses - God has equippled you - now walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you have been called

God bless http://christianforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif.
What makes you think that the "perfect man" of Ephesians 4: 13 has come?

Thanks for your replies! :)

[Perceivence]

Yes! exactly! So head to the linguist. You might want to study 1 Corinthians 14 before you head out to the field though...
Ohkay....

[richardsherratt]

How many of you believe in the sign gifts being used in the church today? (tongues, slain in Spirit, etc)
I have just finished reading J. MacArthur's The Charismatics and I agree with him. Sign gifts have ceased with the completion of canon.

[AVBunyan]

1. I really don't mean to debate. I just want to thoroughly understand your point of view, so I have some more questions.

2. Do you have any scripture to support that God only uses gifts for the Israelites and that gifts are for the Israelites and no one else?

3. I'm sorry, but I don't understand what being complete in him has to do with the relevance of the Spiritual Gifts today.

4. So you interpret being complete in Christ as being perfectly capable and able of doing any and everything as any other person?

5. What makes you think that the "perfect man" of Ephesians 4: 13 has come?

1. Good – I’m somewhat tired of endless debates myself. 2. The Gentiles in Acts had the gifts and gifted men – I Cor. 13, 12; Rom. 12. Never said the different gifts did not operated among the Gentiles. What I was trying to bring out was the purpose of the sign gfts – II Cor. 12:12 - and other gifts.- Rom. 12:6.


The sign gifts – for when God was dealin with Israel as a nation – they were used by folks to authtenticate their ministeries and to show Israel that they essentially being judged (also provked to jealousy) by God allowoing the Gentiles to partake of God’s blessings.

The other gifts – ex. Rom. 12 – were to assist the building up of the church until Paul had the completed revelation (Co. 1:25) and for the body to be complet with allit needed for the saints to live the Christian life – Ehpesians 3, 4.

3. Because I’ve her many folks compare their “gifts” with one another. I’ve heard some saints say that they could’t teach a Sunday School class because they didn’t have the gift of prophecy or teaching – Rom. 12:6,7. I read my Bible in Col. 2:10 and it says we are complete in Christ. I read in Eph. 4:11-13 that God gave these gifted men till we come into the unity of the faith , the perfect man, and tthe fulness of Christ. I believe we are there – no need for the gifts any more.

4. No, complete in Christ I that we have all that he has for us. You may play the piano better than me but it is not a gift. One may be a better speaker but it isn’t because he has a “gift”. Some people wrok harder, some people pursue certain things more diligently.

5. Why would you think ithadn’t come yet? If not when would you think it would come?

That’s all I have for now!!

God bless

[Perceivence]

Oh, man. I have so many more questions! I'll try to ask only the biggest ones, though, since you seem really busy.

2. The Gentiles in Acts had the gifts and gifted men – I Cor. 13, 12; Rom. 12. Never said the different gifts did not operated among the Gentiles. What I was trying to bring out was the purpose of the sign gfts – II Cor. 12:12 - and other gifts.- Rom. 12:6.Lemme see if I understand you.

So you're saying that yes, the Gentiles did have the gifts. And you quoted 1 Cor 13: 12 and Rom 12 as support of this?

The sign gifts – for when God was dealin with Israel as a nation – they were used by folks to authtenticate their ministeries and to show Israel that they essentially being judged (also provked to jealousy) by God allowoing the Gentiles to partake of God’s blessings.Now this is the major part I don't understand, namely:

1. How do you separate the "sign gifts" from the others? What Biblical support is there that these gifts should, indeed, be called "sign gifts"?

2. Where in the Bible do you get the idea about the "sign gifts" being used to show that Israel was "being judged and to provoke jealousy among the Israelites"?

3. Is there anything in the Bible to suggest that the "sign gifts" are only for the purpose you outlined above and nothing else?

The other gifts – ex. Rom. 12 – were to assist the building up of the church until Paul had the completed revelation (Co. 1:25)...I hope you don't mind me asking for scripture to support this, too.

...and for the body to be complet with allit needed for the saints to live the Christian life – Ehpesians 3, 4.These verses?

Eph 4: 11 - 13 (NIV)

11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

?

I read in Eph. 4:11-13 that God gave these gifted men till we come into the unity of the faith , the perfect man, and tthe fulness of Christ. I believe we are there – no need for the gifts any more.So all Christians are now in the unity of the faith in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, mature and attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ such that we are no longer infants, easily tossed by every wind of teaching and deception, but rather we all speak the truth in love and have grown in all things into Jesus Christ the Head of the Church (Eph 4: 13 - 15)?

4. No, complete in Christ I that we have all that he has for us. You may play the piano better than me but it is not a gift. One may be a better speaker but it isn’t because he has a “gift”. Some people wrok harder, some people pursue certain things more diligently.But no one is born with a natural ability or inclination to be better at something(s) than any other person? Or is it that being complete in Christ erases all such differences?

5. Why would you think ithadn’t come yet? If not when would you think it would come?Well, you're making me rethink, but I think it hasn't come because all the things Paul describes in verses 13 - 15 haven't come to pass as yet. Christians are still tossed about by false doctrine, are still divided and still like infants, to name a few.

That’s all I have for now!!

God blessThanks a lot!

As I said before, I tried to ask only the biggest questions, but it seems as if it still came out like a lot. :D

Btw, do you know of any sites or books (preferrably sites) that I can read up on to find out more about this?

[richardsherratt]

1. How do you separate the "sign gifts" from the others? What Biblical support is there that these gifts should, indeed, be called "sign gifts"?

2. Where in the Bible do you get the idea about the "sign gifts" being used to show that Israel was "being judged and to provoke jealousy among the Israelites"?

3. Is there anything in the Bible to suggest that the "sign gifts" are only for the purpose you outlined above and nothing else?Judgement:
1 Corinthians 14
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
quoting Isaiah 28:11-12

Tongues are mentioned only in the earliest books of the New Testament!

Sign gifts for apostleship: 2 Corinthians 12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

What is your understanding of the Gift of Tongues?

[Perceivence]

Judgement:

1 Corinthians 14
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
quoting Isaiah 28:11-12Paul wasn't talking about Israel when he quoted that verse...was he?

Tongues are mentioned only in the earliest books of the New Testament!Okay.

Sign gifts for apostleship:

2 Corinthians 12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.Hmmm...so you think that only apostles could do these things?

What is your understanding of the Gift of Tongues? I really don't think it's relevant in this issue...but still.

Basically I believe that it is relevant and applicable for today, like all of the other Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it may be used for self edification when uninterpreted, church edification when interpreted and to preach the gospel to people whose language one doesn't understand.

I think that's about it....

[Iosias]

Paul wasn't talking about Israel when he quoted that verse...was he?
Read Isaiah! Tongues were a sign of judgement on Israel and this they would have known. Read also Peter's two sermons in Acts and the note of judgement in them!



Hmmm...so you think that only apostles could do these things?Read what it says...signs of apostles are...2 Corinthians 12 :12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.


Basically I believe that it is relevant and applicable for today... Two questions:
1. What is the purpose of tongues?
2. What is the purpose of miracles/healing?

[Perceivence]

Read Isaiah! Tongues were a sign of judgement on Israel and this they would have known. Read also Peter's two sermons in Acts and the note of judgement in them! Okie.

Isaiah's a BIG book >_<...but I'll try to find those sermons in Acts.

Read what it says...signs of apostles are...2 Corinthians 12 :12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.But elsewhere, it's mentioned that everyone who believes will be able to do those things or have gifts.

Two questions:
1. What is the purpose of tongues?
2. What is the purpose of miracles/healing?1. Church edification, self edification, preaching the gospel to others whose language you don't know and as a sign to unbelievers...I think.

2. Church edification, as a sign of God's power, a sign of God's love and as a means of spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom and drawing more people to Christ...I think.

[Iosias]

Isaiah's a BIG book I provided the references in an earlier post...Isaiah 28:11-12

But elsewhere, it's mentioned that everyone who believes will be able to do those things or have gifts.Where does it say that? Provide some scripture?

1. self edification, preaching the gospel to others whose language you don't know and as a sign to unbelievers...I think.
You think wrong! Sorry if that is too blunt but...well it is true. Where does the Bible say that tongues is to edify oneself? Paul states that uninterpreted tongues will edify oneself but he makes it clear that that is wrong! What unbelievers? Answer = Israel! It is a sign of God's judgement and His temporary setting aside of Israel


2. Church edification, as a sign of God's power, a sign of God's love and as a means of spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom and drawing more people to Christ...I think.

Better than the last answer but still confused... Healing was a sign-gift to the Apostles and to Jesus and the 70 disciples inorder to authenticate themselves and their message. e.g.

Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Mark 16:20 "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

There are many more Biblical references that shew clearly that these sign gifts were tied to the apostles and to Jesus and the 70 disciples. This links in with 1 Cor 13 where we know that the sign-gifts will cease and when scripture was canonised there was now no longer need for Miracles and so they stopped. There are only 3 perods where God has used miracles and these occurred ONLY at times when He made NEW REVELATION! This has stopped and so have the sign-gifts!!

[Perceivence]

Just a reminder: I'm not really here to debate for the signs side, but more to udnerstand the Cessationist one.

I provided the references in an earlier post...Isaiah 28:11-12Okie.

Where does it say that? Provide some scripture?Mark 16: 17 - 18 (NIV)

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


1 Corinthians 12: 7 (NIV)

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

I think there are more, but those are just two that I knew where to findf or sure.

You think wrong! Sorry if that is too blunt but...well it is true. Where does the Bible say that tongues is to edify oneself? Paul states that uninterpreted tongues will edify oneself but he makes it clear that that is wrong! What unbelievers? Answer = Israel! It is a sign of God's judgement and His temporary setting aside of IsraelNo intention to debate....

So Paul was saying that it was a sign to unbelieving Jews (and unbelieving Jews only) even though it was a Gentile church he was addressing?

Better than the last answer but still confused... Healing was a sign-gift to the Apostles and to Jesus and the 70 disciples inorder to authenticate themselves and their message. e.g.

Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Mark 16:20 "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it." Oh...I see.... But the Mark verse said the preached "everywhere"...which would mean it's not just the Jews....

There are many more Biblical references that shew clearly that these sign gifts were tied to the apostles and to Jesus and the 70 disciples.Was Steven part of that 70? What about the 120 in the upper room when the tongues of fire came? And Timothy? And the Corinthians?

This links in with 1 Cor 13 where we know that the sign-gifts will cease...I suppose you're referring to 1 Corinthians 13: 12...right?

...and when scripture was canonised there was now no longer need for Miracles and so they stopped. There are only 3 perods where God has used miracles and these occurred ONLY at times when He made NEW REVELATION! This has stopped and so have the sign-gifts!!So, basically, prophecy and all the other "sign-gifts" were only used as signs, and as such when the "need for signs" ceased so did they?

[Iosias]

So Paul was saying that it was a sign to unbelieving Jews (and unbelieving Jews only) even though it was a Gentile church he was addressing?
Yes...he was ensuring that the church understood what the purpose of tongues was so that they would not be abused.

As for Mark 16 who was Jesus referring to? Answer: the disciples!!

Oh...I see.... But the Mark verse said the preached "everywhere"...which would mean it's not just the Jews...
But the sign-gifts (in general) were also for authenticating the messages and claims of Jesus and the Apsotles. Hence Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

So, basically, prophecy and all the other "sign-gifts" were only used as signs, and as such when the "need for signs" ceased so did they?
Yes...this is the cessationist case!! So inorder for the non-cessationist to make his/her case s/he must shew that the purpose of sign-gifts continue...which they cannot!!

[Perceivence]

Yes...he was ensuring that the church understood what the purpose of tongues was so that they would not be abused. But it was a Gentile church.... Wouldn't most unbelievers in a Gentile church within a Gentile community be Gentile? Wouldn't the statement that it's a sign to unbelievers in that context, then, mean that it's a sign to unbelieving Gentiles too? Where do unbelieving Jews come into the equation?

As for Mark 16 who was Jesus referring to? Answer: the disciples!!He was talking to those who saw Him ascend (I don't think only the disciples saw Him ascend, btw) but He said that the promise is to ALL who believe.

But the sign-gifts (in general) were also for authenticating the messages and claims of Jesus and the Apsotles. Hence Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"I know about that verse. I know about that part of your stance. I was just probing to see if you had any response to that.

Yes...this is the cessationist case!! So inorder for the non-cessationist to make his/her case s/he must shew that the purpose of sign-gifts continue...which they cannot!!Well, as I've said over and over again, I'm not here to debate. But I'll just posit one thing: isn't it possible that the "sign gifts" may be used to edify the church, too?

[Iosias]

But it was a Gentile church.... Wouldn't most unbelievers in a Gentile church within a Gentile community be Gentile? Wouldn't the statement that it's a sign to unbelievers in that context, then, mean that it's a sign to unbelieving Gentiles too? Where do unbelieving Jews come into the equation?
Think back to Acts 2 where the unbelieving Jews stated that Peter et al were drunk...read that sermon! the sign of tongues led to this in verse 38 "Now when they heard this [Peter's sermon], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Remember also that God will provoke Israel to jelousy and His giving the early christians the gift of tongues was a SIGN to Israel that He had set aside Israel. This line of thought is expressed in Rom 9-11.

I'll just posit one thing: isn't it possible that the "sign gifts" may be used to edify the church, too?
The answer is in the question...SIGN-gifts are quite obviously for providing a SIGN. Otherwise they should be called EDIFYING-gifts!!

[indonesianpalmtree]

Hi!

Okeydokey, AV1611 asked me to come over here. I read most of the posts, and from what i've experienced, i'd still have to say that i believe in the whole tongue thing.

Bunyan brought up something that i haven't really thought about yet: The gift of tongues are a sign for unbelievers (Jews apparently). Like an hour before i was exorcised, i decided that i don't believe in God anymore. Naturally i didn't believe in something as ubsurd as speaking in tongues. I was an UNBELIEVER.

Later that night i spoke in tongues (against my will). Someone else also spoke in some language but i didn't understand that either - though his was more holy-sounding. There was like a tongue war goin' on because i shouted back at this guy as though he was causing me pain. Now that seems crazy, but know that i come from a fairly unknown country and this whole tongue thing is very very new to me. I was completely shocked to have spoken in tongues, but i guess that supports Bunyan argument that it's for unbelievers.

P.S. I was really interested in Judaism before i accepted Christ - maybe i felt as though i needed to be a Jew to be a Christian. Maybe even believed that Christianity is too easy. If i didn't have any physical proof, maybe i could find spiritual ecstasy through the Law. Well, I bet there wouldn't have been anything in the whole wide world short of a fiercely paranormal experience to convert me...and here i am.

To me, tongues exist, but i doubt it is called upon as a hobby or a skill. It's exactly how it's described in the Bible: A GIFT! I'm not going to make any statements because i respect everyone's opinion and you don't need to believe me - just know that the experience was convincing enough to make me choose Christ - the "easy" way out ;)

God bless

[Iosias]

Bunyan brought up something that I haven't really thought about yet: The gift of tongues are a sign for unbelievers (Jews apparently).
Start thinking about it! Remember that tongues are a SIGN-gift!

[Perceivence]

Edit: Double post.

[Perceivence]

Think back to Acts 2 where the unbelieving Jews stated that Peter et al were drunk...read that sermon! the sign of tongues led to this in verse 38 "Now when they heard this [Peter's sermon], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Remember also that God will provoke Israel to jelousy and His giving the early christians the gift of tongues was a SIGN to Israel that He had set aside Israel. This line of thought is expressed in Rom 9-11.A rather clever evasion.

Now can you please answer my question?

The answer is in the question...SIGN-gifts are quite obviously for providing a SIGN. Otherwise they should be called EDIFYING-gifts!!Note: I said "sign-gifts". As far as I know, the Bible never calls them "Sign-gifts." Does it? The name may very-well be a misnomer.

So now, please, answer my question.

[wobbly]

Hi

whats "slain in Spirit" and where is it said to be a sign gift or a gift of the Holy Spirit?

cheers
Martin

[Iosias]

A rather clever evasion.

Now can you please answer my question?

Note: I said "sign-gifts". As far as I know, the Bible never calls them "Sign-gifts." Does it? The name may very-well be a misnomer.

So now, please, answer my question.
I did answer the question!! I stated that "God will provoke Israel to jelousy and His giving the early christians the gift of tongues was a SIGN to Israel that He had set aside Israel."

Yes the Bible does call it a sign-gift see:

Hebrews 2
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?



Mark 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Here Jesus was referring to the Apostles!

[Iosias]

Hi

whats "slain in Spirit"...?

cheers
Martin
It is when they are touched and they are thrown to the ground by the power of the spirit...


where is it said to be a sign gift or a gift of the Holy Spirit?

Good question!! It is wholly unbiblical!

[Perceivence]

I did answer the question!! I stated that "God will provoke Israel to jelousy and His giving the early christians the gift of tongues was a SIGN to Israel that He had set aside Israel."

Yes the Bible does call it a sign-gift see:

Here Jesus was referring to the Apostles!Just forget it. You've said these things before, I've answered them and you just repeat what you said before. I was trying to probe to see if there was anything below the surface of this thing, but it looks like a no. And I don't want to debate, so I'll leave it here.

[Iosias]

Just forget it. You've said these things before, I've answered them and you just repeat what you said before. I was trying to probe to see if there was anything below the surface of this thing, but it looks like a no. And I don't want to debate, so I'll leave it here.Out of interest you need to understand that verses 9-20 of Mark 16 are not in the old texts and so are unreliable for basing doctrine. It is interesting to note that the non-cessationist case relied overly on these verses!! i.e. try making your case without using Mark 16:9-20!!

You may want to look at this: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/tongues/tongues.htm

[Perceivence]

Your name is AV1611 and you're doubting the validity of a passage of scripture in the Kings James version?

Anyway, I'm aware of the dispute. There are, however, good points on either side. I'm not learned enough about it to make a decision, however.

Nevertheless, that's not the only passage that talks about all believers receving the gifts, I think. It's the clearest, but I believe that 1 Cor also has a passage or two on it (1 Cor 12 something, I think).

[MbiaJc]

:clap: Avi611 Post #57 Said:

"Note: I said "sign-gifts". As far as I know, the Bible never calls them "Sign-gifts. Does it? The name may very-well be a misnomer."


:hug: No: The Bible says that tongues are a sign for unbelievers.


SPIRITUAL GIFTS ARE IN THREE CATEGORIES


THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF ChRIST

:banned:
MEMBER: Of the body of Christ, the first three are given by Christ Himself and all

are set in the church by GOD, each person has one or more.

Compare 1Corinthians 12:28 & Ephesians 4:11

apostles

prophets

teachers (evangelist, pastor teacher) Compare 1Cor. 12:28 with Eph. 4:11

miracles

healings (medical remedies)

helps

governments (of Latin origin, to steer) (figuratively) directorship (in the church)

diversities of tongues

OFFICE: The ability, the way the Spirit works through us (The work to be done). Each member can hold one, or more or all offices, but not likely.

Romans 12

Prophecy

ministry

teaching

exhorting

giving

ruling

mercy

love

hope

enthusiasm

hope

patience

MANIFESTATION: The way the Spirit works in us. The Spirit works in each member in one or more of these ways.

1 Corinthians. 12:1-10

wisdom

knowledge

faith (given by GOD)

healing (medical remedies)

miracles

prophecy

discerning of spirits

tongues

interpretation of tongues

[Iosias]

Your name is AV1611 and you're doubting the validity of a passage of scripture in the Kings James version?

Anyway, I'm aware of the dispute. There are, however, good points on either side. I'm not learned enough about it to make a decision, however.

Nevertheless, that's not the only passage that talks about all believers receving the gifts, I think. It's the clearest, but I believe that 1 Cor also has a passage or two on it (1 Cor 12 something, I think).
The AV1611 is the inspired Word of God hoever few KJVs are from the AV of 1611!

[cactusj]

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Does this not say "cannot be uttered"?

Main Entry: 2utter
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English uttren, from utter outside, adverb, from Old English utor, comparative of ut out
transitive senses
1 obsolete : to offer for sale
2 a : to send forth as a sound b : to give utterance (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=utterance) to : PRONOUNCE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pronounce), SPEAK (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=speak) c : to give public expression to : express in words
3 : to put (as currency) into circulation; specifically : to circulate (as a counterfeit note) as if legal or genuine <utter false tokens>
4 : to put forth or out : DISCHARGE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=discharge)
intransitive senses : to make a statement or sound

Just asking?

[JVD]

Out of interest you need to understand that verses 9-20 of Mark 16 are not in the old texts and so are unreliable for basing doctrine. It is interesting to note that the non-cessationist case relied overly on these verses!! i.e. try making your case without using Mark 16:9-20!!

AV...I'm sorry if I seem like I am haunting you. (You and I agree on most things.) But I couldn't believe that you said this. Aren't Mark 16:9-20 in the AV ?????

[Iosias]

AV...I'm sorry if I seem like I am haunting you. (You and I agree on most things.) But I couldn't believe that you said this. Aren't Mark 16:9-20 in the AV ?????
They are...but the fact remains that they are not in the oldest manuscripts we have available although they are in most of the first/second century manuscripts. All I meant was that you need to know that they are 'missing' in the oldest manuscripts...I use Mark 16:9-20 for doctrine.