What does obsolete mean?

[k4c]

The Old Covenant consisted of many things including the law on stone.

What does it mean when the Old Covenant is made, obsolete?

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

[k4c]

I Just want to add some thoughts to my own post.

Do you think the contents of a covenant is different from the terms of a covenant?

If so, do you think that maybe the contents of a covenant can still be valid while the terms of the covenant is made obsolete?

[TrustAndObey]

I Just want to add some thoughts to my own post.

Do you think the contents of a covenant is different from the terms of a covenant?

If so, do you think that maybe the contents of a covenant can still be valid while the terms of the covenant is made obsolete?



LOL John, I'm sorry you had to talk to yourself.

It's actually a really good question.

I can only compare it to the two times I've had to make a Last Will and Testament.

The first time was an emergency and I had to rush around and have it done because it was possible that I could die in surgery. It was thrown together rather quickly, but it was done well.

Basically I gave everything to my parents and said I wanted them to raise my son (who was 2 1/2) if I should happen to die. I also stated that I didn't want my ex-husband to raise him. He was mentally unable to raise a child.

I redid it a couple of years later because my ex-husband was in a horrible accident and was paralyzed. He earnestly started trying to be a father at that point, but was then physically unable to raise a child.

The contents of the wills were exactly the same, but the circumstances were different.

Look at the covenant with David (Psa 89). It included the Ten Commandments.

I don't believe that God's will for His people just abruptly changed into almost two completely different things.

Every time Jesus said "it is written..." you have to consider that the New Testament wasn't written yet and Jesus was endorsing the Old Testament prophets.

He also was very specific that the things that pointed to Him must be fulfilled and end (Luke 24:44 & 22:37).

The commandments on stone did not point to Christ. Christ kept them and told us to as well.

The New Covenant is based on better promises, but it's still the same law...written on our hearts instead of on stone.

[k4c]

LOL John, I'm sorry you had to talk to yourself.

It's actually a really good question.

I can only compare it to the two times I've had to make a Last Will and Testament.

The first time was an emergency and I had to rush around and have it done because it was possible that I could die in surgery. It was thrown together rather quickly, but it was done well.

Basically I gave everything to my parents and said I wanted them to raise my son (who was 2 1/2) if I should happen to die. I also stated that I didn't want my ex-husband to raise him. He was mentally unable to raise a child.

I redid it a couple of years later because my ex-husband was in a horrible accident and was paralyzed. He earnestly started trying to be a father at that point, but was then physically unable to raise a child.

The contents of the wills were exactly the same, but the circumstances were different.

Look at the covenant with David (Psa 89). It included the Ten Commandments.

I don't believe that God's will for His people just abruptly changed into almost two completely different things.

Every time Jesus said "it is written..." you have to consider that the New Testament wasn't written yet and Jesus was endorsing the Old Testament prophets.

He also was very specific that the things that pointed to Him must be fulfilled and end (Luke 24:44 & 22:37).

The commandments on stone did not point to Christ. Christ kept them and told us to as well.

The New Covenant is based on better promises, but it's still the same law...written on our hearts instead of on stone.

Good example...

It seems to me that the Law has two sides, which manifest two different things, which are, righteousness and love.

It seems to me that under the Old Covenant the Law was dealing with righteousness as it revealed our need and brought death and condemnation because of sin to those outside of Christ. But now, for those who are in Christ, there is no need for that side of the Law. The side of the Law that now works in us is love.

Galatians 3:1-29 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain? Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Intent of the Law Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Jesus brings an end to the law for the purpose of righteousness but not for love.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1 John 2:1-1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.

Jesus removes the righteous requirement of the Law so that we can be free to love God and neighbor through the same Law without fear, guilt or condemnation.

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

To me it seems that the contents of the covenant may be the same but the terms are now different.

In Christ, the law is no longer needed to produce righeousness for Christ is our righteousness. This removes a huge burden from us and frees us up to love from a pure heart and a sincere faith.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

The law now becomes an expression of love, not a means to righteousness.

What are your thoughts?

[TrustAndObey]

John, I have a bunch of stuff I have to get done before class today, so I'll come back later (probably after class because I have a PM to answer first)...but let me just say that you and I are obviously reading the same Bible!! :)

[catmommy]

Our pastor preached a sermon on this a few weeks ago. What he showed us is that the terms of both the Old and New Covenant were the same, and the only difference was who was responsible to obeyed the law. The original covenant rested on covenant affirmation that they would do all that was contained in the law and required a sacrifice for each offense. The second convenant rests on Jesus pronouncement that he had obeyed the law and our acceptance of his gift of perfection. He then provided the sacrifice needed for the offenses we would commit while pronouncing his perfect observance of the law was ours to claim. The law never changed or was abolished. Jesus came to do what we and the children of Israel could not do. He obeyed the law with the right spirit and perfection. He also showed us how to obey the law out of love, not obligation.

[capnator]

Jer 31:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jer&chapter=31&verse=33&version=kjv#33)But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

True true the old covenant is done away with and a new covenant is in place. Praise God we are saved by grace through faith... not of works lest any man should boast. You are right that if we want to live by the old covenant we should be living by the whole covenant. The law of God was a part of the old covenant BUT it is also a part of the new covenant... The covenant does not equal the ten commandments, rather the people agreed in the old covenant to keep the commandments. Doing away with the covenant has nothing to do with the doing away with the ten commandments!

A simple analogy would be a covenant involving a house... maybe the renting of one for 5 years. When the covenant expires you don't then say the house no longer exists? That house can be part of a new covenant!.... maybe even a new and better covenant.

In the new covenant the law is written on our hearts.. men and women KNOW that killing, murder, lying, stealing is wrong because the law is written on our hearts! The law doesn't save us! and the SDA church never ever claims that it does. The law is simply standard of right and wrong. The new covenant is not a licence to sin. The bible lets us know that sin is transgression of Gods law. The law is also the standard by which the wicked are judged, if there is no law then there are no wicked, and if you can't be wicked then what do you need to be saved from? Once saved by faith we obey God out of love... WHY? Because Jesus has shown us that Greater love has no one than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John reapetedly states that to love God is to obey him and keep his commandments.

So I wholeheartedly agree with you that the old covenant is done away or obsolete and that we are under a new and better covenant ratified with the blood of our precious saviour. We follow the way of Abraham who believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness AMEN. but also notice something interesting Gen 26:5 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=26&v=5&t=KJV#5) Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham also like us was saved by faith and kept the commandments of God. Rev 14:12 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=12&t=KJV#12)Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The only conceivable reason for trying to attack the Ten commandments is to dodge a command that is not wanted, which is most likely (but not necessarily) the Sabbath. Nearly all christians will be quite happy to point at the law when it comes to the other nine... The thing that amazes me k4c is that there are numerous different angles in which this is attempted from but it all boils down to the same thing in the end you find that Sabbatarians keep 10 commandments wheras the rest of christendom keep 9.. or if you get a bit more whacky maybe only 8 or 7.

The Catholics go about this in yet another way they just flat out arrogantly say We are above the bible and have the power to change it. At least they acknowledged what the bible says on this. In my opinion very wrong, but you have to admit it's got some logic to it.

[k4c]

Good points to everyone.

What I have found is that the first four commandments have to do with worship towards God. It's in the first four commandments that we see the most trouble with in the religious world.

Satan, along with religious man, has no problem with keeping the last six commandments because man can receive glory from keeping the last six but God alone receives the glory when we keep the first four.

[PROPHECYKID]

Good example...

It seems to me that the Law has two sides, which manifest two different things, which are, righteousness and love.

It seems to me that under the Old Covenant the Law was dealing with righteousness as it revealed our need and brought death and condemnation because of sin to those outside of Christ. But now, for those who are in Christ, there is no need for that side of the Law. The side of the Law that now works in us is love.

Galatians 3:1-29 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain? Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Intent of the Law Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Jesus brings an end to the law for the purpose of righteousness but not for love.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1 John 2:1-1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.

Jesus removes the righteous requirement of the Law so that we can be free to love God and neighbor through the same Law without fear, guilt or condemnation.

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

To me it seems that the contents of the covenant may be the same but the terms are now different.

In Christ, the law is no longer needed to produce righeousness for Christ is our righteousness. This removes a huge burden from us and frees us up to love from a pure heart and a sincere faith.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

The law now becomes an expression of love, not a means to righteousness.

What are your thoughts?
Solid and Truthful. I like it. I never heard an explanation like that before but it seems ok.

[PROPHECYKID]

My usual thinking stems from the fact that sometimes when Paul says the law he might not always be talking about the 10 commandments. I have found that usually when he speaks about the laws of Moses he demonstrates it as being against faith which is true. For faith in Jesus means that you will no longer heed the law of Moses. A lack of faith in Jesus means you will. The 10 commandments never goes against faith for the saints in Revelation 14:12 keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus so how can they be against each other. I hope you see my point although i can be wrong.

[k4c]

My usual thinking stems from the fact that sometimes when Paul says the law he might not always be talking about the 10 commandments. I have found that usually when he speaks about the laws of Moses he demonstrates it as being against faith which is true. For faith in Jesus means that you will no longer heed the law of Moses. A lack of faith in Jesus means you will. The 10 commandments never goes against faith for the saints in Revelation 14:12 keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus so how can they be against each other. I hope you see my point although i can be wrong.

Through faith we uphold the law. In other words, why keep the law if there is no kingdom coming? It would be more fun living by the flesh. Without faith we should just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. But we, through faith, believe of better things to come and how God is preparing a people for the coming kingdom. It's this hope that anchors the soul and causes us to purify ourselves as Christ is pure.

[PROPHECYKID]

Through faith we uphold the law. In other words, why keep the law if there is no kingdom coming? It would be more fun living by the flesh. Without faith we should just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. But we, through faith, believe of better things to come and how God is preparing a people for the coming kingdom. It's this hope that anchors the soul and causes us to purify ourselves as Christ is pure.
True! So do you see the law in Galatians 3 to be the 10 commandments.

[k4c]

True! So do you see the law in Galatians 3 to be the 10 commandments.

Yes I do...but I also see that the law was added because of transgressions. This tells me that they were violating the principles of the law before the law was given.