John 5:18...who agrees with the Jews?

[TrustAndObey]

I'm having an interesting conversation (on a different message board) with a woman that claims that Jesus did break the Sabbath.

All because of these verses: John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

First of all, the Sabbath commandment says "thou shalt do no LABOR......"

Is using a gift of the Spirit (healing) considered labor?

Look at the amount of labor it took to heal the man, even though he had been afflicted for 38 years:

John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Does that appear strenuous or exhaustive? Does it appear to be secular work in ANY WAY?

Is holy work, considered work?

Was Jesus doing carpentry or getting paid to heal the man?

Was Jesus telling the man to sin by asking him to pick up his bed and walk?

Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Was Jesus honoring God by healing the man and making him whole on the Sabbath day? Yes.

Was Jesus speaking His OWN words (even though His own words are holy too)? John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

I'm struggling to see how anyone could say they worship a sinful Savior like the person I'm debating with is saying.

Here's the kicker....she said that JOHN wrote the words and that he's not just repeating the Jews' accusations.

So....is she not indeed agreeing with verse John 5:18 where it says "but said ALSO that He is the Son of God, making Himself equal with God."

IS Jesus the Son of God or isn't He? Is JOHN saying that Jesus is not? Or is it the Jews?

I'm am truly frightened that some people think so poorly of Christ yet proclaim they love a sinless Savior.

Have you guys ever run across this argument before? I'm just speechless honestly.

[AndrewK788]

Wow, I've never heard that one before. But you'll always meet at least one person out there who believes anything I suppose.

I couldn't accept that belief because if Jesus had indeed sinned, He couldn't save us with his death on the cross. That's the whole point of Christianity. It would be interesting to see how this woman thinks Jesus could have sinned and still saved anyone as a sacrifice.

[TrustAndObey]

The thing about John 5:18 that cannot be ignored is the "not only, but also" part of it.

You either agree with both accusations of the Jews or neither one...and obviously neither is true, but she says one part of it is.

I'm just flabbergasted and that doesn't happen very often.

[TrustAndObey]

Wow, I've never heard that one before. But you'll always meet at least one person out there who believes anything I suppose.

I couldn't accept that belief because if Jesus had indeed sinned, He couldn't save us with his death on the cross. That's the whole point of Christianity. It would be interesting to see how this woman thinks Jesus could have sinned and still saved anyone as a sacrifice.

Well, in essence, I think her argument is that Jesus still didn't sin, but that by "breaking" the Sabbath He was showing us that it didn't need to be kept anymore.

Even though He told us He DID obey the Father's commandments and abided in His Father's love.

And there's still that "not only, but also" thing she needs to explain.

Andrew, if you like to debate...you should check out CARM. I warn you though, it's not for the thin-skinned AT ALL.

[TrustAndObey]

If you saw Wooba's thread the other day I asked if there was a church out there called "The Anti-Seventh-day Adventist Church"...and I'm not kidding when I tell you that SAME day this woman I'm debating with said that CARM is her CHURCH....

She hates us and that's her CHURCH.

It's a pretty sad world indeed.

[Jon0388g]

I'm having an interesting conversation (on a different message board) with a woman that claims that Jesus did break the Sabbath.

All because of these verses: John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

First of all, the Sabbath commandment says "thou shalt do no LABOR......"

Is using a gift of the Spirit (healing) considered labor?

Look at the amount of labor it took to heal the man, even though he had been afflicted for 38 years:

John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Does that appear strenuous or exhaustive? Does it appear to be secular work in ANY WAY?

Is holy work, considered work?

Was Jesus doing carpentry or getting paid to heal the man?

Was Jesus telling the man to sin by asking him to pick up his bed and walk?

Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Was Jesus honoring God by healing the man and making him whole on the Sabbath day? Yes.

Was Jesus speaking His OWN words (even though His own words are holy too)? John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

I'm struggling to see how anyone could say they worship a sinful Savior like the person I'm debating with is saying.

Here's the kicker....she said that JOHN wrote the words and that he's not just repeating the Jews' accusations.

So....is she not indeed agreeing with verse John 5:18 where it says "but said ALSO that He is the Son of God, making Himself equal with God."

IS Jesus the Son of God or isn't He? Is JOHN saying that Jesus is not? Or is it the Jews?

I'm am truly frightened that some people think so poorly of Christ yet proclaim they love a sinless Savior.

Have you guys ever run across this argument before? I'm just speechless honestly.


Yup, I saw.


I must admit I liked (if I could put it that way) those arguments: just because I'd never seen it that way before. Total rubbish though.


When Jesus asked the Pharisees if it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath, or to do evil, could they answer Him?

Or what about when He asked, "which one of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?" Could they answer?


I think satan will inspire so many different ways to annul the law of God. But if we stick to the Scriptures we can't be deceived.



Jon

[OntheDL]

It's amazing the Jews would accuse Jesus of breaking the sabbath while on the very same day (sabbath) they planned to kill Him.

[OntheDL]

The Jews avoid any appearance of working on sabbath. They don't use umbrellas when raining, they don't turn on the car to drive to synagogue, they don't press anything while using the elevators...but they forget someone else is working on the streets to make sure traffic is in order, someone else is working to make there is electricity going into the elevators... And they forget God is working on Sabbath for the world to go around.

[TrustAndObey]

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[TrustAndObey]

It gets even more interesting I must say....

Okay, apparently not only did Jesus break the Sabbath commandment (according to some people) but He also told a man to do the same when He told him to pick up his bed and walk on the Sabbath. John 5:8.

Which then, of course, leads to Him sinning by bearing false witness in John 15:10 when He says: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If any of you have a cross-reference Bible, look up John 5:18. The sister verse to it is Matthew 15:9 that says: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

But here's the thing...it is mentioned in scripture that a man should not bear a burden on the Sabbath day...here's the verse that the woman I'm PMing with referenced:

Jeremiah 17:21Thus says the LORD: Take care for the sake of your lives, and do not bear a burden on the Sabbath day or bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem.

Her argument, in essence, is Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

She's contending Jesus changed the Sabbath day.

So many verses are being overlooked here that I don't even know where to start.

Okay, here's a few:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

So this is a three-fold question...

1. Did Jesus indeed sin and tell a man to do the same?

2. Did Jesus have the power and authority to CHANGE the Father's law?

3. Did Jesus bear false witness when He said He did indeed keep the Father's commandments?

I sent her a link to this thread so she can keep an eye on the discussions.

Many blessings,
~Lainie

[TrustAndObey]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I guess I don't understand why Jesus would repeatedly say things like this, if His intention was to change God's law or...to break God's law.

I KNOW He didn't break God's law, but it's just really hard to express that to other people. In order for their pride not to take a punch, they'd rather throw Jesus under the bus I guess.

[TrustAndObey]

One has to ask.....instead of breaking a commandment, if Jesus had the authority to CHANGE God's law, why wouldn't He just say that instead of continually calling the 7th day the "Sabbath"?

I mean seriously you guys, this is just so unreal to me that people think He would be unlawful (yet say Himself it is LAWFUL to do well on the Sabbath).

Why would He go around breaking a commandment to do away with it?

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYBODY?

[AndrewK788]

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYBODY?

No, not really.

[AZJMiles]

Awesome topic btw.

Jesus broke Jewish oral law(tradition). He broke it along with His diciples who picked grain and sifted it on the Sabbath. There were major and minor laws to be observed and the picking of the grain broke three of them.
That all means Jesus did not break the Sabbath as God commanded it to be, He only broke the legalism of the Jewish tradtions concerning the Sabbath.

I also believe the "burden" verse is nothing new or an aside to the 4th commandment, it only explains it because you are to rest on the Sabbath, bear no "burden" or work on that day. Jesus went on to explain the spirit of the law, chasiting the Pharisees for accusing Him because they would lead their donkeys to water on the Sabbath and pull sheep from wells. Jesus asked how much greater importance is it to help each other on the Sabbath?

The summation given for the Law and Prophets is the golden rule, according to Jesus. So if we work in the spirit than all is permissable ie nurses, caregivers, doctors, emts, electric company and so on have God's blessing to work on the Sabbath.

Hope thats clear as mud.

[TrustAndObey]

Awesome topic btw.

Jesus broke Jewish oral law(tradition). He broke it along with His diciples who picked grain and sifted it on the Sabbath. There were major and minor laws to be observed and the picking of the grain broke three of them.
That all means Jesus did not break the Sabbath as God commanded it to be, He only broke the legalism of the Jewish tradtions concerning the Sabbath.

I also believe the "burden" verse is nothing new or an aside to the 4th commandment, it only explains it because you are to rest on the Sabbath, bear no "burden" or work on that day. Jesus went on to explain the spirit of the law, chasiting the Pharisees for accusing Him because they would lead their donkeys to water on the Sabbath and pull sheep from wells. Jesus asked how much greater importance is it to help each other on the Sabbath?

The summation given for the Law and Prophets is the golden rule, according to Jesus. So if we work in the spirit than all is permissable ie nurses, caregivers, doctors, emts, electric company and so on have God's blessing to work on the Sabbath.

Hope thats clear as mud.

Amen and amen!!

The biggest error I'm seeing with this argument from people is that they neglect the fact that Jesus said it was LAWFUL to do the things He did on the Sabbath....it was the JEWS saying it wasn't lawful.

Not only that, but Jesus called it the SABBATH.

It makes absolutely no sense that in order to do away with it, He'd break it and then keep calling it the SABBATH.

He would've called it the seventh day and would've been clear about it not being God's holy day anymore.

[TrustAndObey]

HEY! I just realized that was your first post!! Welcome to CF!

[TrustAndObey]

Point blank question BFA....did Christ's death on the cross make anything God considers unrighteous, righteous?

Is it now okay to murder? Was it okay for Cain to murder Abel before the law was written on stone?