Byzantine Catholic

[JM]

I was speaking with a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church, they say they're Orthodox in union with the Pope, if that's the case why aren't all Orthodox in union with the Pope?

[Matrona]

Byzantine Catholics are not Orthodox. They use the Orthodox liturgy and several aspects of our spiritual practice, but they follow all Catholic doctrine and are under the Pope, so they are not Orthodox. They believe in everything Catholics do--although some will claim they follow Orthodox doctrine, they don't. They have the same Roman doctrines as any other Catholics--immaculate conception, double procession of the Holy Spirit, and many other doctrines that are wholly incompatible with the Orthodox Faith.

They like to say that they're "Orthodox in communion with Rome" because it confuses people into thinking they are Orthodox. I really wish they would stop saying that. The Orthodox Church is one united church, the One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church, that hasn't included the patriarch of Rome in nearly a thousand years. I pray he and his followers will come home soon. :)

Byzantine Catholics are like my lip balm. It kisses a lot of icons, too, but that doesn't make it Orthodox, either!

[Patristic]

It would probably be more correct to state that they are Eastern Rite Liturgist's in union with the Pope. It is true that Eastern Rite Catholics do share many similarities with the Orthodox such as icons used in worship and the use of Eastern vestements, but they are also distinctly different. As members of the Catholic Church they also embrace the dogmas of papal infallibility, the Assumption of Mary, and the Immaculate conception. Even though the Orthodox Church believes in the Assumption, we haven't elevated that teaching to the level of dogma. In regards to the immaculate conception, accepting that teaching means they embrace the Western definition of original sin which is markedly different from the East. Also, nobody really knows where they stand on the ideas of grace. The West teaches that grace is a created substance whereas the East, following Palamas, believes grace to be the Uncreated Divine Energies of God. Adhereing to one view automatically eliminates the possibility of holding the other one, so in this affair it is difficult to know whether Eastern Catholics are Eastern or Western minded.

[Rilian]

I pray he and his followers will come home soon. :)

St. Alexis Toth pray for us. :prayer:

[katherine2001]

Yes, we should pray for them. For one thing, they actually believe that they are Orthodox even though they are under the Pope and have to accept Catholic doctrine. They use the Orthodox liturgy, but again, they are under the RC hierarchy and must accept Catholic dogma, at least some of which isn't accepted by the Orthodox Church (such as the Filioque (the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son instead of the Father alone), purgatory, Immaculate Conception, etc). It would be the same thing as some Orthodox using a Catholic Mass for their services, but otherwise being under Orthodox hierarchs and being required to accept Orthodox dogma and then calling themselves "Catholics in communion with Moscow (or Constantinople, Antioch, or Greece, etc). Using the Orthodox liturgy isn't what makes you Orthodox.

The sad thing is that Byzantine Catholics believe that they are Orthodox and can be quite upset when they visit an Orthodox Church and are told that they can't take Communion.

The Papacy is one of the big roadblocks to reunification. It was one of the major issues that led to the schism in 1054 and it is still a huge roadblock. One of the early councils passed canons prohibiting the bishop of one see from interfering in the other sees, which the bishop of the Church of Rome agreed to. If there ever was reunification, the Pope would have to accept those canons again. In other words, he would be the head of the Church of Rome, but he would certainly not be the universal head.

[The Prokeimenon!]

Since he's been mentioned a few times recently, here's a link to the story of St Alexis Toth. (http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/OCA/St-Alexis-Toth/)

Holy Saint Alexis, pray to God for us!

Moses

[Eusebios]

You beat me to it MTB, thanks!

[Matthias]

If there was a single Byzantine Catholic Church in New Zealand I'd definitely have become one, no questions asked. Orthodoxy will do, though. :)

[prodromos]

Orthodoxy will do, though. :)

I hope the smiley indicates a huge understatement ;)

[Matthias]

Heh. Of course. :D

[Michael the Iconographer]

I was speaking with a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church, they say they're Orthodox in union with the Pope, if that's the case why aren't all Orthodox in union with the Pope?

Not quite. I was Byzantine Catholic unofficially for 2 years as a "half way point" between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The more Orthodoxy I learned the less comfortable I became with that idea. Being Orthodox necessitates not being in union with the Pope because our view of the way the Church is structured is contradictory to the idea of the centralized authority of the Pope. We also reject quite a few ideas that the Catholics believe, but this is not a debate forum.

[QuagDabPeg]

One of the early councils passed canons prohibiting the bishop of one see from interfering in the other sees, which the bishop of the Church of Rome agreed to. If there ever was reunification, the Pope would have to accept those canons again. In other words, he would be the head of the Church of Rome, but he would certainly not be the universal head.


Do you know what counsil that is? I'm interested in reading about it. Thanks!

[Kripost]

Do you know what counsil that is? I'm interested in reading about it. Thanks!

It was the 2nd Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople, canon 2.

From: http://www.ccel.org
THE bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs. And let not bishops go beyond their dioceses for ordination or any other ecclesiastical ministrations, unless they be invited. And the aforesaid canon concerning dioceses being observed, it is evident that the synod of every province will administer the affairs of that particular province as was decreed at Nice. But the Churches of God in heathen nations must be governed according to the custom which has prevailed from the times of the Fathers.