Trinity or Godhead?

[mva1985]

Personally, I use the terms interchangeably but it seems that some here think differently. I am trying to understand what the difference is.

[mva1985]

I see that people are looking at this thread, but no responses yet.

[TrustAndObey]

It's the first time I've seen your thread MVA...you know I'm not the speechless type. :)

Okay, here's the difference (to me)......

Godhead is in the bible and Trinity isn't.

The term trinity means different things to different people, and what most churches teach is not something that I would endorse nor would I belong to a church that taught the mainstream view of it.

Do you want me to expound?

[mva1985]

It's the first time I've seen your thread MVA...you know I'm not the speechless type. :)

Okay, here's the difference (to me)......

Godhead is in the bible and Trinity isn't.

The term trinity means different things to different people, and what most churches teach is not something that I would endorse nor would I belong to a church that taught the mainstream view of it.

Do you want me to expound?

Yes, I would appreciate that.

I do realize that the word Trinity is not used in the Bible, but Millennium is not used either.

But go on and teach me sister! :thumbsup:

[TrustAndObey]

The word Bible isn't in the Bible either.

I meant to put a smiley face after that comment...LOL! I was going to leave it at that too, and then come back later and respond more. Bwhaha. That would've totally freaked you out.

Okay, I have to go get something to drink and then I'll respond more.

[mva1985]

The word Bible isn't in the Bible either.

I meant to put a smiley face after that comment...LOL! I was going to leave it at that too, and then come back later and respond more. Bwhaha. That would've totally freaked you out.

Okay, I have to go get something to drink and then I'll respond more.
LOL... that is funny.

[TrustAndObey]

Let me start by saying that most trinity doctrines that I've read completely take away from the individual qualities that each Member of the Godhead possesses!

The Trinity, the way it was taught in a lot of the mainstream churches today, goes a little somethin' like this:

1. When Jesus said "these are the two great commandments" He had the power and ability to CHANGE what God had said before because He IS God.

Look at His Own words on this subject:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (He even goes on to repeat the last six commandments that were on stone).

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus even referred to God the Father as "My God" in scripture:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

While on earth, Jesus was not God. 1. God dwelt IN Him fully, but He was not immortal (like God the Father) otherwise He could not have possibly died for our sins.

2. God the Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Jesus died and rose so that He could BECOME the Lord of the dead and the living (Romans 14:9).

3. God the Father gave judgment to Christ because Christ knows exactly what it's like to be tempted.

4. When Christ was tempted He drew on the strength of God the Father and the Angels....

I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Even now, He doesn't know when He gets to return. He doesn't know the day and the hour, only the Father knows.

Now, all that being said, I am not taking ANYTHING away from Christ, our Savior and Lord. He IS God and was here from before the foundations of the earth. It's just that while He was on earth, He came to do what GOD THE FATHER told Him to do, and that's exactly what He did.

Jesus had to learn and He had to be born of a woman.

Remember in the garden when He said "but YOUR will be done" while praying to the Father?

I believe Jesus really did die and that He slept in the dust of the earth just like we will when we die. The only difference? He was sinless, through the power of God, and He raised HIMSELF back up.

HE is the resurrection and the life!

I believe They are very distinct in their powers over us, but ONE in purpose.

I hope that made sense. I have a little five-year-old making me play rock, paper, scissors....LOL!

And MVA...notice something when you hear people talk about the Trinity as it is taught in their churches...they'll agree with it until you say Christ wrote the commandments on stone Himself. Which, by the way, He did.

[TrustAndObey]

In plainer words, MVA...I believe all three Members of the Godhead have different JOBS...but Their love for us is the same and Their purpose is exactly the same.

The will of the Father is what it's all about. Jesus said we had to do it and He did it too.

[mva1985]

While on earth, Jesus was not God. 1. God dwelt IN Him fully, but He was not immortal (like God the Father) otherwise He could not have possibly died for our sins.

John 8:58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&verse=58&version=31&context=verse)
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"


3. God the Father gave judgment to Christ because Christ knows exactly what it's like to be tempted.


Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

[mva1985]

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.



John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[TrustAndObey]

I agree, Jesus was around before the foundations of the Earth.

I believe He gave up Divinity to live among us, show us how to live, to overcome temptation, and to pray and rely on God....

God cannot die. Jesus really did die for our sins.

[TrustAndObey]

Think about it MVA...why did Jesus have to be born of a woman at all? Why couldn't He just appear?

In Mark we're told that we should be able to heal the sick, raise the dead....all things I know each and every one of us could do if we had the type of faith Jesus did!

Paul raised the dead.

[mva1985]

I agree, Jesus was around before the foundations of the Earth.

I believe He gave up Divinity to live among us, show us how to live, to overcome temptation, and to pray and rely on God....

God cannot die. Jesus really did die for our sins.
I too believe that He did die for our sins.

Consider this:
1 Tim. 3:16
16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

I don't think we will be able to understand the Incarnation of God. Not in this life anyways. I believe that Jesus was fully God even while on earth, but He chose to subject Himself to the Father in order to give us an example to live by. He covered His divinity with humanity.

[catmommy]

Let me start by saying that most trinity doctrines that I've read completely take away from the individual qualities that each Member of the Godhead possesses!

The Trinity, the way it was taught in a lot of the mainstream churches today, goes a little somethin' like this:

1. When Jesus said "these are the two great commandments" He had the power and ability to CHANGE what God had said before because He IS God.

Look at His Own words on this subject:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (He even goes on to repeat the last six commandments that were on stone).

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus even referred to God the Father as "My God" in scripture:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

While on earth, Jesus was not God. 1. God dwelt IN Him fully, but He was not immortal (like God the Father) otherwise He could not have possibly died for our sins.

2. God the Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Jesus died and rose so that He could BECOME the Lord of the dead and the living (Romans 14:9).

3. God the Father gave judgment to Christ because Christ knows exactly what it's like to be tempted.

4. When Christ was tempted He drew on the strength of God the Father and the Angels....

I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Even now, He doesn't know when He gets to return. He doesn't know the day and the hour, only the Father knows.

Now, all that being said, I am not taking ANYTHING away from Christ, our Savior and Lord. He IS God and was here from before the foundations of the earth. It's just that while He was on earth, He came to do what GOD THE FATHER told Him to do, and that's exactly what He did.

Jesus had to learn and He had to be born of a woman.

Remember in the garden when He said "but YOUR will be done" while praying to the Father?

I believe Jesus really did die and that He slept in the dust of the earth just like we will when we die. The only difference? He was sinless, through the power of God, and He raised HIMSELF back up.

HE is the resurrection and the life!

I believe They are very distinct in their powers over us, but ONE in purpose.

I hope that made sense. I have a little five-year-old making me play rock, paper, scissors....LOL!

And MVA...notice something when you hear people talk about the Trinity as it is taught in their churches...they'll agree with it until you say Christ wrote the commandments on stone Himself. Which, by the way, He did.
I agree with you, but I am not sure that is the SDA understanding of Jesus position on earth. I believe that the current lesson is teaching that Jesus was 100% God, 100% Man while on earth. As I had it explained to me and what I got from the lesson is that Jesus had divinity, but did not use it while on earth. I am still investigating this point of view.

[mva1985]

Think about it MVA...why did Jesus have to be born of a woman at all? Why couldn't He just appear?

In Mark we're told that we should be able to heal the sick, raise the dead....all things I know each and every one of us could do if we had the type of faith Jesus did!

Paul raised the dead.
Jesus needed to be born of a woman to show humanity and all of the heavenly beings that it was indeed possible to live a sinless life by relying completely on God.

If He would have just appeared it really would not have been on the same terms that humans are brought into this world - giving Satan another excuse to say that it is impossible for man to keep God's Law.

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

There's an irony to this, I just read Joe Crews' mini-book about Jesus as a human today. :) I posted about it in the main area. Seem to make a lot of sense to what you guys are talking about.

I don't fully understand it all myself, as I don't think anyone really does. I think though..that Jesus was 100% God while here, and the only reason we can do all of the things he can do (heal and such) is because we can only do it from external power: either God or Satan (keeping in mind Satan can produce miracles, too).

Jesus did rely on the Father to raise Lazarus, as He thanked the Father for hearing His request before he was raised...however, Jesus was also an example for us to show us that the power is from God. Had he just wiggled his nose (I wonder if anyone will get the reference to that. Ha!) and Lazarus lived, it wouldn't have directed the attention to God.

[mva1985]

There's an irony to this, I just read Joe Crews' mini-book about Jesus as a human today. :) I posted about it in the main area. Seem to make a lot of sense to what you guys are talking about.

I don't fully understand it all myself, as I don't think anyone really does. I think though..that Jesus was 100% God while here, and the only reason we can do all of the things he can do (heal and such) is because we can only do it from external power: either God or Satan (keeping in mind Satan can produce miracles, too).

Jesus did rely on the Father to raise Lazarus, as He thanked the Father for hearing His request before he was raised...however, Jesus was also an example for us to show us that the power is from God. Had he just wiggled his nose (I wonder if anyone will get the reference to that. Ha!) and Lazarus lived, it wouldn't have directed the attention to God.
I agree

[mva1985]

In times past God did not speak to us through His Son, but rather, He spoke to us through the prophets and other divers ways. But it wasn't through Jesus.

John 14:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

[mva1985]

Jesus and His Father are not co-eternal or co-equal.

John chapter one clearly refutes this idea.

[k4c]

John 14:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

When people see us they Christ, in other words, we are the image of Christ because we are conformed to His image. This does not mean we are Christ in the same way Jesus is the image of the invisible God but that does not make Him the invisible God.

[k4c]

John chapter one clearly refutes this idea.

Jesus is the word become flesh, in other words, Jesus' life was one of obedience to His Father's will.

Jesus' words can become flesh in us when we obey Him, in other words, our lives reveal His will so when people see us they see Christ in us.

Now keep in mind that even though the eternal will of the Father was being obeyed by Jesus, Jesus Himself also had a will of His own that was not eternal in which He had to resist in order to be obedient to His Father's will. This is something Jesus had to learn.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

[TrustAndObey]

Jesus is the word become flesh, in other words, Jesus' life was one of obedience to His Father's will.

Jesus' words can become flesh in us when we obey Him, in other words, our lives reveal His will so when people see us they see Christ in us.

Now keep in mind that even though the eternal will of the Father was being obeyed by Jesus, Jesus Himself also had a will of His own that was not eternal in which He had to resist in order to be obedient to His Father's will. This is something Jesus had to learn.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Wow k4c, I actually agree with you on something. :)

[k4c]

Wow k4c, I actually agree with you on something. :)

Can we be friends again...:pray:

[mva1985]

k4c,

I am not sure exactly the point you are trying to make with your posts.

But Jesus existed with the Father before He came to earth. Along with the Holy Spirit of course - we have a tendency to leave Him out of things.

The Bible says that all three are God and the Bible also says that only God is immortal. All Three have existed forever.

The Three of Them have taken on different roles as presented in the Bible, but the Three are all God - One God consisting of Three separate Entities.

[k4c]

k4c,

I am not sure exactly the point you are trying to make with your posts.

But Jesus existed with the Father before He came to earth. Along with the Holy Spirit of course - we have a tendency to leave Him out of things.

The Bible says that all three are God and the Bible also says that only God is immortal. All Three have existed forever.

The Three of Them have taken on different roles as presented in the Bible, but the Three are all God - One God consisting of Three separate Entities.

This is what we have been forced to believe through the beast kingdom in 325AD.

Jesus was not immortal, His death proved that.

[Jon0388g]

This is what we have been forced to believe through the beast kingdom in 325AD.

Jesus was not immortal, His death proved that.




I think you need to be careful friend.

Jesus Christ the man was not immortal, His death proved this, which I wholeheartedly agree with.


But Jesus Christ was also the Son of God, the very Word of God made flesh. He did not relinquish His position as God when He came to earth, He only "emptied" Himself of His divine nature.


"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:6-7


Isaiah prophesied,

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6


Even the Father says of Him:

"But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Hebrews 1:8


The Father referred to Christ as "God". His place among the Godhead cannot be disputed.


Remember we are warned,

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:3


I believe this passage directly warns us the spirit of antichrist is that which denies Christ (God) was manifest in the flesh. Let's tread carefully....




Jon

[Jon0388g]

Jesus is the word become flesh, in other words, Jesus' life was one of obedience to His Father's will.

No, Jesus Christ, as the "Word" which became flesh literally means the Word of God, God Himself, stooped down and made His tabernacle among men. Proof? See:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God." Revelation 19:11-13

This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Word!



Jon

[k4c]

I think you need to be careful friend.

Jesus Christ the man was not immortal, His death proved this, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

But Jesus Christ was also the Son of God, the very Word of God made flesh. He did not relinquish His position as God when He came to earth, He only "emptied" Himself of His divine nature.

"Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:6-7

Isaiah prophesied,

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

Even the Father says of Him:

"But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Hebrews 1:8

The Father referred to Christ as "God". His place among the Godhead cannot be disputed.

Remember we are warned,

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:3

I believe this passage directly warns us the spirit of antichrist is that which denies Christ (God) was manifest in the flesh. Let's tread carefully....

Jon

The word (God) is not a personal name for any particular being. Satan is called god, Moses was called god even we ourselves are called god. The word (God) is only a title given to one who has authority.

Jesus is not co-eteranl or co-equal with the Father. This is a man made belief developed by the beast power and enforced by the beast power.

The word (word) is not a person, but rather, a concept the reveals the will of another The word (word) is the word (Logos). This word is used many times throughout the Bible and never once is it a person.

The KJV may capitalize the (W) but that is done based on a Theological mindset. This same word is used in other areas of the Bible with no capital (W).

The word reveals the will, power and authority of God and carries the same authroity as God Himself. Jesus obeyed the will of the Father but keep in mind that Jesus also had His own will that was bent towards disobedience. Jesus had to sweat blood to resist His will in order the He might do His Father's will. Jesus was tempted to sin, the Father can not be tempted to sin.

Jesus died, the Father can not die.

Jesus was seen, no man has ever seen the Father.

The Father knows all things, the Son does not.

Jesus humbled Himself when He washed the feet of His followers even though His was the Son of God. He didn't humble Himself by giving up a prior position in heaven.

The Father is greater than the Son.

The order of authority goes like this.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Isaiah tells us that Jesus SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The words (SHALL BE CALLED) means that Jesus did not yet hold these titles. Jesus is the everlasting father in that He is the father of everlasting life, in other words, He authored it. We see the same principle when Satan is called the father of lies because he authored it.

Jesus did come in the flesh and He is the only begotten Son of God. To be begotten means He had a beginning.

Jesus was the form of God, He was the image of God but He is not THE true God and Father.

This is very clear in Scripture, as well as, Jesus' own words.

[TrustAndObey]

The word (God) is not a personal name for any particular being. Satan is called god, Moses was called god even we ourselves are called god. The word (God) is only a title given to one who has authority.

Jesus is not co-eteranl or co-equal with the Father. This is a man made belief developed by the beast power and enforced by the beast power.

The word (word) is not a person, but rather, a concept the reveals the will of another The word (word) is the word (Logos). This word is used many times throughout the Bible and never once is it a person.

The KJV may capitalize the (W) but that is done based on a Theological mindset. This same word is used in other areas of the Bible with no capital (W).

The word reveals the will, power and authority of God and carries the same authroity as God Himself. Jesus obeyed the will of the Father but keep in mind that Jesus also had His own will that was bent towards disobedience. Jesus had to sweat blood to resist His will in order the He might do His Father's will. Jesus was tempted to sin, the Father can not be tempted to sin.

Jesus died, the Father can not die.

Jesus was seen, no man has ever seen the Father.

The Father knows all things, the Son does not.

Jesus humbled Himself when He washed the feet of His followers even though His was the Son of God. He didn't humble Himself by giving up a prior position in heaven.

The Father is greater than the Son.

The order of authority goes like this.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Isaiah tells us that Jesus SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The words (SHALL BE CALLED) means that Jesus did not yet hold these titles. Jesus is the everlasting father in that He is the father of everlasting life, in other words, He authored it. We see the same principle when Satan is called the father of lies because he authored it.

Jesus did come in the flesh and He is the only begotten Son of God. To be begotten means He had a beginning.

Jesus was the form of God, He was the image of God but He is not THE true God and Father.

This is very clear in Scripture, as well as, Jesus' own words.

Yikes, I don't have time to read through this thoroughly right now, but I'm thinking I disagree with you on big parts of it.

Jesus is not God the Father, that much I absolutely agree with....but He is co-eternal and was here since the beginning.

I'll come back later.

[TrustAndObey]

One thing to consider, before I go, is this....

Jesus is the Son of God...yet it was the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary.

I believe the Holy Spirit is more than God's "breath", but I think It's every bit as part of Him as His finger or His heart or His will.

[OntheDL]

Hi Lainie,

Here are some of my comments...
Let me start by saying that most trinity doctrines that I've read completely take away from the individual qualities that each Member of the Godhead possesses!

The Trinity, the way it was taught in a lot of the mainstream churches today, goes a little somethin' like this:

1. When Jesus said "these are the two great commandments" He had the power and ability to CHANGE what God had said before because He IS God.

Lainie, we saw from the OT stories how kings were powerless to change their own laws. Not even God Himself can change His own law. That's why the law of God is eternal because the law reflects His glory/character. And the law is the standard by which His entire universe is governed.

Who gave Moses the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai? Not God the Father (No one has seen the Father at any time). It was Jesus Himself who gave the law to Moses.


Look at His Own words on this subject:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but One, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (He even goes on to repeat the last six commandments that were on stone).

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus even referred to God the Father as "My God" in scripture:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

While on earth, Jesus was not God. 1. God dwelt IN Him fully, but He was not immortal (like God the Father) otherwise He could not have possibly died for our sins.
1. Jesus never denied He is the Son of God to the disciples. In the Hebrew mindsets, the Son and the Father are equal.

2. The Jews tried to stone Him for 2 reasons, for forgiving sins as God (who but God alone can forgive sin?) Luke 5:21 and for claiming to be God (John 10:33).

3. Thomas after finally believing, worshipped Jesus and called Him 'my LORD (YHWH) and my God.' John 20:28.

4. When the devil was tempting Jesus, what did He say to rebuke the devil? 'Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God', Matt 4:7.

Jesus while on earth was fully human and fully divine. Such is the mystery of God our finite minds can not comprehend.

While it is not a robbery to be equal to God (Philippians 2:6), Jesus never relied on His own divinity to overcome His humanity (temptation). He replied on the Father's power, thus leaving us an example.

That's how He could have died on the cross. His humanity died on the cross.


2. God the Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Jesus died and rose so that He could BECOME the Lord of the dead and the living (Romans 14:9).

3. God the Father gave judgment to Christ because Christ knows exactly what it's like to be tempted.

4. When Christ was tempted He drew on the strength of God the Father and the Angels....

I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Even now, He doesn't know when He gets to return. He doesn't know the day and the hour, only the Father knows.

Now, all that being said, I am not taking ANYTHING away from Christ, our Savior and Lord. He IS God and was here from before the foundations of the earth. It's just that while He was on earth, He came to do what GOD THE FATHER told Him to do, and that's exactly what He did.

Jesus had to learn and He had to be born of a woman.
Lainie, from Sanctuary study, you will be able to see vividly how His divinity was 'veiled' by His humanity. :cool:

[Jon0388g]

The word (God) is not a personal name for any particular being. Satan is called god, Moses was called god even we ourselves are called god. The word (God) is only a title given to one who has authority.

Jesus is not co-eteranl or co-equal with the Father. This is a man made belief developed by the beast power and enforced by the beast power.

The word (word) is not a person, but rather, a concept the reveals the will of another The word (word) is the word (Logos). This word is used many times throughout the Bible and never once is it a person.

The KJV may capitalize the (W) but that is done based on a Theological mindset. This same word is used in other areas of the Bible with no capital (W).

Literal Greek:

"and he clothed with vesture dipped in blood and his name called word of God." Revelation 19:13


The Bible says "his name" is called "the word of God". What can you not see about this. The Word became flesh and dwelt among men.


Forget about that. What do you do with this:


"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

Who here is speaking?

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:17-18

Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the "Almighty"
He died as a Man, but is alive for evermoreIs the evidence not clear enough He was and is the very God?




The word reveals the will, power and authority of God and carries the same authroity as God Himself. Jesus obeyed the will of the Father but keep in mind that Jesus also had His own will that was bent towards disobedience. Jesus had to sweat blood to resist His will in order the He might do His Father's will. Jesus was tempted to sin, the Father can not be tempted to sin.

Jesus died, the Father can not die.

Jesus was seen, no man has ever seen the Father.

I agree with you up to here.




The Father knows all things, the Son does not.

Jesus humbled Himself when He washed the feet of His followers even though His was the Son of God. He didn't humble Himself by giving up a prior position in heaven.

The Father is greater than the Son.

The order of authority goes like this.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Bible is clear that authority is primarily of the Father. This does not detract from the fact that Christ and the Father are One. How many times did Christ Himself say this?

And I don't know how it can get any clearer than the Father referring to the Son as "God".



Isaiah tells us that Jesus SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The words (SHALL BE CALLED) means that Jesus did not yet hold these titles. Jesus is the everlasting father in that He is the father of everlasting life, in other words, He authored it. We see the same principle when Satan is called the father of lies because he authored it.


Let's assume for the moment that you're right: 'shall be called' is in fact meaning He didn't yet hold these titles.


When in the future can any mortal man be referred to as 'the mighty God'???


And how do you read 'everlasting life' into the passage in Isaiah? The Scripture plainly states He shall be called 'Everlasting Father'. Everlasting means without beginning, without end, just as Christ described Himself in Revelation 1. I feel you're grasping at straws here sir.




Jesus did come in the flesh and He is the only begotten Son of God. To be begotten means He had a beginning.

False.

Begotten - "monogenh/v" (cf. John 3:16)


single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of GodYou are reading in your own meaning. If begotten in the sense of God's only begotten Son means He had a beginning, please explain Revelation 1:8.

Furthermore, what did Christ really mean when He told the Jews "before Abram was, I AM"?




Jesus was the form of God, He was the image of God but He is not THE true God and Father.

This is very clear in Scripture, as well as, Jesus' own words.


Yes Scripture is clear: the one who denies Christ came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.



Jon

[Jon0388g]

Lainie, from Sanctuary study, you will be able to see vividly how His divinity was 'veiled' by His humanity. :cool:


Yes, the burning bush that was not consumed.


The bush was on fire, but the flames did not destroy the bush. It was still fire, but there was something 'missing' in that fire that rendered it harmless to the fragile bush.


Christ is the flame which did not instantly destroy the body of humanity He was given - the bush. If He came as 'a consuming fire', the Mighty God, He would have decimated His flesh in a millisecond. He did not - He emptied Himself and dwelled in a human body, just as the fire was emptied of its power to consume the bush.


I think that illustration is beautiful, personally:)



Jon

[TrustAndObey]

Yes, the burning bush that was not consumed.


The bush was on fire, but the flames did not destroy the bush. It was still fire, but there was something 'missing' in that fire that rendered it harmless to the fragile bush.


Christ is the flame which did not instantly destroy the body of humanity He was given - the bush. If He came as 'a consuming fire', the Mighty God, He would have decimated His flesh in a millisecond. He did not - He emptied Himself and dwelled in a human body, just as the fire was emptied of its power to consume the bush.


I think that illustration is beautiful, personally:)



Jon

I like this thread. :) I feel very close to my Savior that was given Judgment because He knows our temptations...but He never failed.