Why Don't They Just Move On... [Archive]

woobadooba

19th April 2008, 11:08 AM

IntoTheCrimsonSky

19th April 2008, 01:01 PM

It's kind of ironic, because in a sense this can be bashing the bashers. ;)

I do agree with you, though. Of all the people I've come in contact with over the years, very few seem to be hostile towards their old church/denomination...even those that have suffered some awful experiences from them (being abused in a mental way, in most cases). Yet you see it so much with the SDA church. I'm not just talking about here, obviously...I don't know how many times I've searched on something SDA online and ended up at an anti-SDA site. That doesn't do too much good for a baby Christian, I'll say that.

Maybe it's because our church can border very closely with legalism, and we can be very different from a lot of others out there. We are our own breed of Christians with some of our distinct doctrines, and so some who decide that the church is wrong are probably a bit more strong-minded when it comes to the differences.

If you are leaving the SDA church, a lot of the reasoning seems to be an idea that the commandments are nailed to the cross or something along those lines...which, if you believe that, makes the SDA church a very large threat. Especially when you look at the comments made in the NT in regards to false teachers of their day that tried to push law keeping. Depending on your view of who those scriptures are referring to, it seems logical that you would want to react with the same boldness that the early apostles had in regards to those teachers.

This is an understandable cause in my mind, but I think what some people can miss is the balance. As much as Paul may have been speaking against these teachings/teachers, he was also a wonderful example of love. He taught how a Christian should act and did so himself, making the negativity towards them the exception.

I think sometimes I'm too tolerant of other beliefs and teachings, which probably comes from my unbringing of accepting all beliefs and faiths. I tend to go with the idea that if you even want a chance to try and show the truth you've been shown to them, you want to be their friend first. Maybe there's some good in that, certainly makes me have less enemies. ;)

Anyway, before I ramble too much. Keep in mind that the above views are coming from a former. I don't go bashing the church, and I do try not to bash others either. :)

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 01:36 PM

Something that I find to be very disturbing is that when people leave our church they often make a ministry out of putting it down.

Some even go to great lengths to do this by putting up SDA bashing websites. And then there are others who post all over the forums, expressing their anger and the issues that they have with the SDA church.

Why don't they just move on with their lives and do something more productive? Why do they feel a need to put us down?

When I left the Methodist church as a result of not agreeing with some of their doctrine, I didn't go around bashing them at every opportunity. In fact, I strongly disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, and yet I don't even bash them for it.

But why SDAs? Why do we always seem to get this kind of treatment?

Interestingly, there is one person in particular who has done nothing but bash our church ever since he left it, because he doesn't agree with what we teach.

Well, why doesn't he do this with other denominations? Why only ours? I know he doesn't agree with much of what Catholicism teaches. So why doesn't he say anything about them? Why does he spend so much time trying to find fault with us?

Indeed I don't see anything remotely close to resembling the fruits of the Spirit in such activity!

It is evident to me that the devil is behind this whole thing, and the more these people do this the more I am convinced that I am in the right church.

This, my dear friend, is the question of the century!

I never went to the Baptist forums after I left, not once.

I have admitted to going into the Catholic chat rooms on Yahoo before to ask some not-so-earnest questions about their faith (which of course I already knew the answers to) and it made me feel miserable. I got absolutely no pleasure out of it and felt like I needed to take a shower afterwards, seriously.

As much as I disagree with some Catholic teachings (and I think the Bible does too), I have absolutely no ill will toward the PEOPLE in the church.

The sad reality is that what a lot of these people have in common is disdain for our church, and very little else.

I've asked before, is there a Anti-Adventist CHURCH somewhere that I'm not aware of? Their doctrine must be "We disagree with all things Adventist."

Wooba, honestly, I don't think they can see their own hatred being expressed, and I think some really do think they're trying to help us...by being hateful and condescending.

We're in the right church. No doubt about it!

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 01:43 PM

Maybe it's because our church can border very closely with legalism, and we can be very different from a lot of others out there.

The irony in that statement is that our LORD appears to have bordered on legalism too....if, of course, people think legalism is simply keeping the law of God.

Legalism is keeping the law but not doing it out of love. That isn't true for any Adventist that I know.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If keeping the commandments is legalism, then what does that say about our Savior? Seriously?

We are our own breed of Christians with some of our distinct doctrines, and so some who decide that the church is wrong are probably a bit more strong-minded when it comes to the differences.

That's what's so sad about it. They think we're obsessed with the fourth commandment when the reality is that it's the commandment we get asked the most about, and naturally we answer the charges or questions. WE aren't the ones obsessed with it!

It's like second nature to me now.

Bourbaki

19th April 2008, 01:49 PM

And then there are others who post all over the forums, expressing their anger and the issues that they have with the SDA church.

Why don't they just move on with their lives and do something more productive?

Even the pope recognizes that his church is responsible for the spiritual abuse that church members suffer because of a depraved hierarchy. Did the pope tell victims of abuse to just move on? Shouldn't Seventh-day Adventists have just as much discernment as the pope? Why doesn't the Seventh-day Adventist church voluntarily pay reparations to those it has abused?

IntoTheCrimsonSky

19th April 2008, 02:10 PM

The irony in that statement is that our LORD appears to have bordered on legalism too....if, of course, people think legalism is simply keeping the law of God.

Legalism is keeping the law but not doing it out of love. That isn't true for any Adventist that I know.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If keeping the commandments is legalism, then what does that say about our Savior? Seriously?

Oh, agreed...keeping the commandments themselves is not legalism, but it can border onto it if one doesn't completely understand the way it all works.

My very first experience with Christianity in a positive sense was with the SDA church, as most here know. The sad part of it was that my first two years (of like, maybe 3 being Christian? No..I think it's 4 now.) was spent in legalism. Although many times I'd been told that we are to do it out of love and it doesn't create salvation, it's sadly ironic that no one really taught me who Jesus is. I thought I knew, but I realized probably less than a year ago that I really didn't know, that parts of me still didn't even like Him. I'm not trying to blame the church or doctrine on that at all, although I do think that I probably didn't end up with the proper influences around me as a baby Christian (even when I went to church, I was never really...treated as anything different than a mature Christian, and for the most part I was never shown the basics). It's just how it happened. I ended up in such an awful state by the end of it, too...(not the end of being an SDA, this was a seperate thing)...I'd find myself doing some chore on the Sabbath and spend the next week unable to approach God, feeling so awfully condemned..so lost...so hating myself...because I believed I was a failure. I thought I loved God/Jesus, so why couldn't I keep His simple comandments? I would never get into Heaven..I was sure of it. I believed I was pretty much a failure at even loving Him.

Ironically, it took walking away from the commandments to knock myself into perspective. To no logner feel judged by God and Christians around me, rather to only need to love to be accepted. I think that opened my heart to really start to meet Jesus then. I remember the huge step it was just to be able to say His name without cringing, without feeling like one of the Jesus pushers I used to hate..to actually start to get used to the fact He is good.

Anyway, before this get's taken waaaay wrong as a bash against the church, keep in mind this is just my personal experience. I really believe it was a whole bunch of circumstances, including my prior beliefs, that turned my early SDA days into a legalistic time. :( I've got no hard feeling against, it though..I do understand the absolute good there is in the commandments and still do try to keep them, but my perspective has changed right now on how important they are in salvation.

Hense why I believe there's a scary border-line that a lot of other churches don't have. Satan can so easily turn the very positive SDA/Bible doctrine into something bad..which is what I think can turn so much hate against the church.

That's what's so sad about it. They think we're obsessed with the fourth commandment when the reality is that it's the commandment we get asked the most about, and naturally we answer the charges or questions. WE aren't the ones obsessed with it!

It's like second nature to me now.

True. No one questions the others, anyway. I know I would have had a lot less resistance at home if SDA's kept the regular Sunday. ;)

woobadooba

19th April 2008, 03:25 PM

Even the pope recognizes that his church is responsible for the spiritual abuse that church members suffer because of a depraved hierarchy. Did the pope tell victims of abuse to just move on? Shouldn't Seventh-day Adventists have just as much discernment as the pope? Why doesn't the Seventh-day Adventist church voluntarily pay reparations to those it has abused?

This is an absurd insinuation! The SDA church hasn't abused anyone. There are people WITHIN the church that are abusive, but the church ITSELF is not abusive.

By the way, the people that I have found to be the most abusive within the church are often those who eventually leave it!

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 04:28 PM

This is an absurd insinuation! The SDA church hasn't abused anyone. There are people WITHIN the church that are abusive, but the church ITSELF is not abusive.

By the way, the people that I have found to be the most abusive within the church are often those who eventually leave it!

What I keep noticing is that the people that eventually grow to hate our church are usually the ones that were born and raised in it.

I can kind of see that though, can't you? If you grew up being told to obey God and that your life wasn't about you....wouldn't the other churches out there seem much more appealing?

My life is the photo-negative of that scenario and I know EXACTLY what it's like to think you have more control over your life than what you actually do. I know EXACTLY what it's like to find out you have ZERO control over what happens in your life and you can do nothing without God.

I think coming into it later in life, as a free will choice, would be a lot different than being raised in the church. We also have to consider that some people do have overbearing parents and that could be part of it too.

We shouldn't judge why they left...but I do take offense to them telling me that I should too. I mean, seriously, they act like their new "freedom" is just so fantastic, but I've yet to see that freedom. I see preoccupation to the point of harassment from some people.

I know we shouldn't hate them back, though. We ARE going to be hated...that's a promise in scripture.

People get their knees knocked out from under them all the time, and if they decide to come back we should welcome them with open arms.

In the meantime, no, I won't put up with someone trying to tell me that I'm not doing it correctly. I don't go to THEIR forums and attack them and I never will.

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 04:33 PM

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 05:27 PM

By the way, a former on a different message board told me I was breaking the Sabbath commandment by going on a nature walk with my son today.

It would be funny if it weren't so incredibly sad.

Jesus is our Manna from Heaven!

I wonder if it dawns on people that Jesus didn't live in a tent, and that He went to the synagogue every Sabbath? Did He break God's law?

IntoTheCrimsonSky

19th April 2008, 06:04 PM

This is an absurd insinuation! The SDA church hasn't abused anyone. There are people WITHIN the church that are abusive, but the church ITSELF is not abusive.

That is true, as far as I've seen. Although every church has those certain members, don't they? ;)

What I keep noticing is that the people that eventually grow to hate our church are usually the ones that were born and raised in it.

I can kind of see that though, can't you? If you grew up being told to obey God and that your life wasn't about you....wouldn't the other churches out there seem much more appealing?

My life is the photo-negative of that scenario and I know EXACTLY what it's like to think you have more control over your life than what you actually do. I know EXACTLY what it's like to find out you have ZERO control over what happens in your life and you can do nothing without God.

I think coming into it later in life, as a free will choice, would be a lot different than being raised in the church. We also have to consider that some people do have overbearing parents and that could be part of it too.

You have some good points there, Sis. A couple of my friends have been Christians their whole lives (although the main one isn't SDA), and it's certainly a very different mindset. I think the difference comes in the fact that to us, it's a privilege. We saw it more as a choice that we, personally, made to be on God's side..where as those raised in it had it partly sort of.. chosen for them. I see how different I am in so many ways than I was just 4 years ago, and I'm absolutely stunned! I act different, I have different goals, different feelings...my whole thought process is different! I'm a completely different person than I was back then, and it wasn't that long ago! It's just...awe inspiring to me. I think those who are raised in the church don't always have that, and so their road can be difficult in areas ours aren't...whereas ours is difficult in other areas, too.

We shouldn't judge why they left...but I do take offense to them telling me that I should too. I mean, seriously, they act like their new "freedom" is just so fantastic, but I've yet to see that freedom. I see preoccupation to the point of harassment from some people.

I know we shouldn't hate them back, though. We ARE going to be hated...that's a promise in scripture.

People get their knees knocked out from under them all the time, and if they decide to come back we should welcome them with open arms.

In the meantime, no, I won't put up with someone trying to tell me that I'm not doing it correctly. I don't go to THEIR forums and attack them and I never will.

Everyone has this built in habit of wanting to change everyone, to make everyone perfect in our own eyes...;)...I think that's why humbling is so important...when we no logner think we are perfect/always right/able to know what's best for ourselves...we no longer push it onto others. It makes loving people for who they are a lot easier.

mva1985

19th April 2008, 06:05 PM

IntoTheCrimsonSky

19th April 2008, 06:14 PM

Oh Sarah, I'm so sorry you didn't know about Christ when you came into the church.

I think I did know Him and His character when I was a young kid, and I really thank my wonderful parents for letting me know that I had Someone to answer to, but more importantly that there was Someone in heaven that loved me even more than THEY did.

I remember my mom telling me that, and she was so sweet about it. She said "as much as I love you, it can't even TOUCH the kind of love God has for you."

I tell my boys that too.

That's wonderful. :) I hope they truely appreciate it, too! I would love to have been raised as a Christian (ironic, when you look at the other convo in this thread).

I was lucky that I was raised with spirituality, at least. I knew of God, I knew He loved me..I knew to pray..all of that, but it's such a different perspective than a Biblical Christian has. It all works so differently, and I'm now accountable...when my prior beliefs said "Well, if I screw up..oh well. I can go up to Heaven, rest awhile, then try again in another life. Woo!". That even fell over into suicide and such. There ain't much of a need to accomplish much in that, only if I feel like it.

Jesus, on the other hand, was so forign to me..even though my mom believes in Him and such..I really didn't like the fact people worshiped some guy. I mean, in my mind, He was just some guy who was really smart and enlightened in the idea of love and such...little confused when it came to sin being an issue, but that went with His time, right? *cringe at that, now* I do wish I'd had someone drilling that into me a lot harder when I firrst found Christianity, rather than being told to keep the commandments and how important that was..but I do also know that maybe it had to be this way...I don't know who my testimony might need to touch someday, do I? :)

It's so important to form the LOVE relationship with Him before you form the "walking" relationship with Him.

I think you're doing the right thing, if that counts for anything. You're doing exactly what I would do in your shoes, seriously.

Aww! Thanks, Big Sis! That means a lot. :)

By the way, a former on a different message board told me I was breaking the Sabbath commandment by going on a nature walk with my son today.

It would be funny if it weren't so incredibly sad.

Jesus is our Manna from Heaven!

I wonder if it dawns on people that Jesus didn't live in a tent, and that He went to the synagogue every Sabbath? Did He break God's law?

See, that's where I came from a bit! Even walking the garbage down to the chute down our apartment hallway and I was repenting! Yes, that could wait..but when the cat poops...Rofl..I don't think God would frown on it, now that I better understand things.

I don't believe God expects us to sit perfectly still, apart from bathroom breaks, on our bed for 24 hours..soley praying and reading our Bibles. As you said, Jesus moved around and such. :)

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 06:51 PM

I would bet there is a good chance that Jesus walked further then a "Sabbath day's journey" as well.

It wasn't even that, she was saying I was breaking it by coming out of my TENT!

HOOT!

TrustAndObey

19th April 2008, 09:06 PM

I don't believe God expects us to sit perfectly still, apart from bathroom breaks, on our bed for 24 hours..soley praying and reading our Bibles. As you said, Jesus moved around and such. :)

He doesn't expect that. We shouldn't hide it under a bushel!

I think it's important to share God's love with everyone and not just keep it to ourselves.

There are some Sabbaths when I need to just concentrate on the scripture and prayer, but most of the time I'm teaching my sons about nature and creation, etc.

I'm indoctrinating some pretty special children I must say. :)

IntoTheCrimsonSky

19th April 2008, 09:25 PM

He doesn't expect that. We shouldn't hide it under a bushel!

I think it's important to share God's love with everyone and not just keep it to ourselves.

There are some Sabbaths when I need to just concentrate on the scripture and prayer, but most of the time I'm teaching my sons about nature and creation, etc.

I'm indoctrinating some pretty special children I must say. :)
Those children have a pretty special mother, also. ;)

I think that's a great way to spend the Sabbath! The weather's getting nicer here, so soon I'll be able to do my favorite...sit out on our balcony and either listen to sermons or read something God-focussed. It's awesome with the view we have, because you can see so much of His creation..even if a lot of it is suburbs and city. I'm looking forward to that. :) I know that one day He'll have me in a place in life where I can share with others, and I can't wait..so now's a good time to figure out what I need to know for Him!

(Although totally off topic, I have an update on my mom's situation..so I'm gonna go write that in the prayers thread I've got. It's not good news, Sis. :()

sentipente

20th April 2008, 02:10 PM

I would bet there is a good chance that Jesus walked further then a "Sabbath day's journey" as well.
What makes you say that?

mva1985

20th April 2008, 04:06 PM

What makes you say that?
Just a personal opinion.

sentipente

21st April 2008, 07:34 AM

Just a personal opinion.
With no foundation. Interesting.

honorthesabbath

21st April 2008, 05:17 PM

No debating for you Senti--please respect our forum rules.

djconklin

22nd April 2008, 09:03 AM

Something that I find to be very disturbing is that when people leave our church they often make a ministry out of putting it down.

Some even go to great lengths to do this by putting up SDA bashing websites. And then there are others who post all over the forums, expressing their anger and the issues that they have with the SDA church.

Why don't they just move on with their lives and do something more productive? Why do they feel a need to put us down?

When I left the Methodist church as a result of not agreeing with some of their doctrine, I didn't go around bashing them at every opportunity. In fact, I strongly disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, and yet I don't even bash them for it.

But why SDAs? Why do we always seem to get this kind of treatment?

Interestingly, there is one person in particular who has done nothing but bash our church ever since he left it, because he doesn't agree with what we teach.

Well, why doesn't he do this with other denominations? Why only ours? I know he doesn't agree with much of what Catholicism teaches. So why doesn't he say anything about them? Why does he spend so much time trying to find fault with us?

Indeed I don't see anything remotely close to resembling the fruits of the Spirit in such activity!

It is evident to me that the devil is behind this whole thing, and the more these people do this the more I am convinced that I am in the right church.
See Romans 1:32--they made a bad decision and want to take others down with them. But, OTOH, while there is life there is hope. Maybe someday they'll change--we've had some do so.
===
By the way, a former on a different message board told me I was breaking the Sabbath commandment by going on a nature walk with my son today.

And we're the legalists!?!
===

I'll testify to senti being ultra-brief--that's his normal operandi

TrustAndObey

22nd April 2008, 09:33 AM

Yeah DJ, isn't that something? I took my son out in creation and I'm breaking God's commandment. I laughed out loud.

TrustAndObey

22nd April 2008, 09:35 AM

Oh, by the way, the reason she said I was breaking the commandment is because I wasn't supposed to come out of my home all day on the Sabbath.

She hadn't read the Old Testament apparently where it talks about the manna being TEMPORARY.

It's funny too, these people, in their need to Lord themselves over others, don't stop for two seconds and consider that Jesus went to the synagogue every Sabbath and that He was out walking around on the Sabbath...healing, spreading God's Word, etc.

I still cannot believe that their extreme desire to be "right" that they'd make our Lord a sinner in their minds.

Byfaithalone1

22nd April 2008, 01:35 PM

Oh, by the way, the reason she said I was breaking the commandment is because I wasn't supposed to come out of my home all day on the Sabbath."Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." Ex. 16:29

She hadn't read the Old Testament apparently where it talks about the manna being TEMPORARY."Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Galatians 3:19

It's funny too, these people, in their need to Lord themselves over others, don't stop for two seconds and consider that Jesus went to the synagogue every Sabbath and that He was out walking around on the Sabbath...healing, spreading God's Word, etc."For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 5:16-18

I still cannot believe that their extreme desire to be "right" that they'd make our Lord a sinner in their minds."He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

TrustAndObey

22nd April 2008, 01:50 PM

"Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." Ex. 16:29Here's the part you guys seem to ignore...WHY were they told not to come out of their tents? Where were they then and where were they GOING? Did Jesus stay in His place on the Sabbath? Did the Pharisees (who obviously KNEW the law very well)? Was Jesus sinning to come out and go to the synagogue?"Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Galatians 3:19

Transgression is breaking the LAW...so guess what, more laws were added as CONSEQUENCE for breaking laws that were already established (sacrifices, atonement, etc). This is bible 101."For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 5:16-18

So you think Jesus had to sin in order to do away with a law? And you think He bore false witness when He said He KEPT the Father's commandments?"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21
The strange part is that you think He DID sin by breaking the Sabbath, so I guess we're all sunk.

And we have to CONFESS our sins in order to be cleansed and receive His righteousness. If you have to confess sin, you better know exactly which laws you're transgressing brother!

Do you need to read our forum rules again?

TrustAndObey

22nd April 2008, 01:52 PM

Bible 101...manna was given for 40 years while the children of Jacob (Israel) went through the wilderness on the way to the Promised Land. Then...it ended!!

:)

Do you want the verses?

Byfaithalone1

22nd April 2008, 02:07 PM

Transgression is breaking the LAW...so guess what, more laws were added as CONSEQUENCE for breaking laws that were already established (sacrifices, atonement, etc). "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise." " . . . . until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Galatians 3"But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar"So you think Jesus had to sin in order to do away with a law? "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

The strange part is that you think He DID sin by breaking the Sabbath, so I guess we're all sunk."God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

And we have to CONFESS our sins in order to be cleansed and receive His righteousness. If you have to confess sin, you better know exactly which laws you're transgressing brother!"Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." John 8:34

Do you need to read our forum rules again?“For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.” Romans 15:4

TrustAndObey

22nd April 2008, 02:13 PM

"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise."
Another Bible 101 thing......Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

" . . . . until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Galatians 3:
Galatians 3:29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[quote=BFA]"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21
I'm not seeing anything there that says "God made Him to SIN so that we don't anymore!"

sin is the slave of sin." John 8:34
Amen! And what did He tell people? "Go and sin no more!"

“For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.” Romans 15:4
Righteousness through Christ...that's our ONLY hope!

You need to quit debating in here BFA.

Byfaithalone1

22nd April 2008, 02:27 PM

Another Bible 101 thing......Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
"'The priest shall then wave them with the bread of the first fruits for a wave offering with two lambs before the LORD; they are to be holy to the LORD for the priest. On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations."
Galatians 3:29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith."
I'm not seeing anything there that says "God made Him to SIN so that we don't anymore!"
"You take him and crucify him. As for me, [B]I find no basis for a charge against him." John 19:6
You need to quit debating in here BFA.
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16

sentipente

22nd April 2008, 02:34 PM

Now, this is an interesting exchange.

TrustAndObey

22nd April 2008, 02:45 PM

Sentipente, do you spend your day lurking in our forum waiting for a chance to jump in or something?

Come on, you know you're not a member here, quit encouraging the rule-breakers.

woobadooba

22nd April 2008, 11:36 PM

It's interesting how people can talk about having the faith of Jesus while harassing at the same time!

Yet, Jesus never harassed anyone.

It only goes to show that they really don't know Him!

AndrewK788

23rd April 2008, 09:18 AM

It's interesting how people can talk about having the faith of Jesus while harassing at the same time!

Yet, Jesus never harassed anyone.

It only goes to show that they really don't know Him!

I know there are some progs who harass. I also know there are trads who have harassed. Anyway, all I would say is be cautious of making generalizations like that. From my experiences, it rarely leads to anything other than conflict. There are plenty of progs, most of them in fact, who are sincere, Christ-following individuals.

And before I get called out as being a prog...I'm not. I'm simply saying that we don't need to lash back. Even if they do harass, so what? Let them have their fun and let the mods deal with it, if it gets out of hand. But to suggest they don't know God is a judgment call I don't see a human being ever being capable of making.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)

Jimlarmore

23rd April 2008, 09:26 AM

I know there are some progs who harass. I also know there are trads who have harassed. Anyway, all I would say is be cautious of making generalizations like that. From my experiences, it rarely leads to anything other than conflict. There are plenty of progs, most of them in fact, who are sincere, Christ-following individuals.

And before I get called out as being a prog...I'm not. I'm simply saying that we don't need to lash back. Even if they do harass, so what? Let them have their fun and let the mods deal with it, if it gets out of hand. But to suggest they don't know God is a judgment call I don't see a human being ever being capable of making.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)

AMEN!!!! Good post Andrew, it's full of wisdom.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

sentipente

23rd April 2008, 11:12 AM

I know there are some progs who harass. I also know there are trads who have harassed.
I notice the difference in tense.

AndrewK788

23rd April 2008, 11:40 AM

I notice the difference in tense.

I notice you insist on picking me apart, but I don't usually say anything. I'm a little surprised at this remark to be honest. After RC and my little debate the other day, I've made an intentional effort to word things in such a way as to not be biased. And I honestly am not, but when you're typing away sometimes things are not spoken eloquently enough or with the proper rhetoric or in the wrong "tense."

In fact, I personally feel I was defending the progs to what Woob had said. So I am not sure why the sly bit of criticism on your part. Even when defending the progs I get criticized by them. Maybe you've forgotten, but I am not a traditional SDA, nor do I have some pro-trad agenda.

I meant there are those from both sides who take part. I don't have a list of names or dates because I don't care. I just know it has happened numerous times in the past and I know it will always continue. So far neither side has disappointed. :( :sigh:

And considering how you picked out "tense" of all things and left out the compliment I gave the progs in the very next sentence makes me begin to wonder what your motives are. I'm not judging...I'm just confused.

sentipente

23rd April 2008, 12:06 PM

Where did I criticize you? I gave you an opportunity to clarify and you get all tied up in a bunch.

AndrewK788

23rd April 2008, 01:23 PM

Where did I criticize you? I gave you an opportunity to clarify and you get all tied up in a bunch.

I have trouble seeing what needed clarity, but if that is truly all you wanted to do, then I am sorry.

woobadooba

23rd April 2008, 02:59 PM

I know there are some progs who harass. I also know there are trads who have harassed. Anyway, all I would say is be cautious of making generalizations like that. From my experiences, it rarely leads to anything other than conflict. There are plenty of progs, most of them in fact, who are sincere, Christ-following individuals.

And before I get called out as being a prog...I'm not. I'm simply saying that we don't need to lash back. Even if they do harass, so what? Let them have their fun and let the mods deal with it, if it gets out of hand. But to suggest they don't know God is a judgment call I don't see a human being ever being capable of making.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9)

Did I mention the Progressives?

I didn't generalize. I was referring to anyone who fits the description of a person that harasses others in the name of Jesus.

woobadooba

23rd April 2008, 03:01 PM

AMEN!!!! Good post Andrew, it's full of wisdom.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

No, Jim. It isn't a good post, because it is written out of context to what I really said.

AndrewK788

23rd April 2008, 04:37 PM

No, Jim. It isn't a good post, because it is written out of context to what I really said.

To sum it up, all my post was saying was we shouldn't judge, we should turn the other cheek, and we should love our neighbor or possibly enemy in this case.

woobadooba

23rd April 2008, 05:30 PM

To sum it up, all my post was saying was we shouldn't judge, we should turn the other cheek, and we should love our neighbor or possibly enemy in this case.

Where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't judge (period)?

AndrewK788

23rd April 2008, 06:02 PM

Where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't judge (period)?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Matthew 7:1-6 NIV

"Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?"

James 4:11, 12 NIV

woobadooba

23rd April 2008, 10:05 PM

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Matthew 7:1-6 NIV

"Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?"

James 4:11, 12 NIV

You didn't notice the qualifier in the parenthetical? (period)

Now then, Jesus didn't mean to say we can't judge at all. If that were the case, then how would you know what swine is to not cast your pearls before it? Matt. 7:6

What He meant was that if you judge you better not judge people for things that you are guilty of yourself. For, as you judge you will be judged.

AndrewK788

23rd April 2008, 10:29 PM

You didn't notice the qualifier in the parenthetical? (period)

Now then, Jesus didn't mean to say we can't judge at all. If that were the case, then how would you know what swine is to not cast your pearls before it? Matt. 7:6

What He meant was that if you judge you better not judge people for things that you are guilty of yourself. For, as you judge you will be judged.

Yes, I know. Without discernment, we wouldn't even know right from wrong.

I'm not even necessarily saying what you said was unmerited. I'm simply saying that the truth, if not spoken out of love, is not a benefit for anyone. When we do point out wrongdoing, it should be in a spirit of love with the hope of helping the one who is struggling with it.

woobadooba

24th April 2008, 12:45 AM

Yes, I know. Without discernment, we wouldn't even know right from wrong.

I'm not even necessarily saying what you said was unmerited. I'm simply saying that the truth, if not spoken out of love, is not a benefit for anyone. When we do point out wrongdoing, it should be in a spirit of love with the hope of helping the one who is struggling with it.

And what makes you think what I said wasn't said out of love?

I say what I say out of love for the truth and out of love for the people that are abused by harassing spirits.

Do you honestly think that we are dealing with people here? Demons have taken control of their minds and use them as a means to destroy the faith that people have in God, and to cause them to leave the church.

Harassing spirits must be rebuked sharply!

AndrewK788

24th April 2008, 07:27 AM

And what makes you think what I said wasn't said out of love?

I say what I say out of love for the truth and out of love for the people that are abused by harassing spirits.

Do you honestly think that we are dealing with people here? Demons have taken control of their minds and use them as a means to destroy the faith that people have in God, and to cause them to leave the church.

Harassing spirits must be rebuked sharply!

You can prove someone wrong and show them the truth, but if it is not done out of love, it will probably only harden their defense against it.

But I wasn't trying to judge what you meant one way or another. If you have spoken out of love, then there isn't a problem. I was just a general statement of caution for us not to speak out of anger or pride.

sentipente

24th April 2008, 07:42 AM

Do you honestly think that we are dealing with people here? Demons have taken control of their minds and use them as a means to destroy the faith that people have in God, and to cause them to leave the church.

Harassing spirits must be rebuked sharply!
Do you honestly think that your words have any effect on demons?

TrustAndObey

24th April 2008, 08:46 AM

Argument from Infinite Digression

woobadooba

24th April 2008, 09:51 AM

Do you honestly think that your words have any effect on demons?

Yes

If it didn't they wouldn't get so angry about it!

sentipente

24th April 2008, 09:54 AM

Yes

If it didn't they wouldn't get so angry about it!
My apologies. I did not know you were on such a personal level with demons. I have never interacted personally with a demon so I have never seen one get angry, or happy for that matter.

woobadooba

24th April 2008, 09:57 AM

You can prove someone wrong and show them the truth, but if it is not done out of love, it will probably only harden their defense against it.

But I wasn't trying to judge what you meant one way or another. If you have spoken out of love, then there isn't a problem. I was just a general statement of caution for us not to speak out of anger or pride.

I understand this, Andrew. I've been in this for more than 10 years. I studied in college to be a Pastor, worked as a Bible worker, a Literature Evangelist for about 4 years, and even worked in Evangelistic seminars. I've been through stuff and have seen things while reaching out to people in love that you likely don't even know of, at least not to the extent that I do. How many doors have you had slammed in your face for trying to share Jesus with people? How many times have you been persecuted for standing up for Jesus? How many people have actually gotten physically violent with you for standing up for Jesus? How many people have threatened you with physical violence for standing up for Jesus? Has your family left you because you stand up for Jesus? I could go on and on with this...

The bottom line here is that I know what it means to be on the front line, and I don't need people to accuse me of not being loving simply because I refer to harassers as being problematic. After being abused enough you learn to discern the spirits, because you know their ways.... So it's not so difficult to judge a person's character.

Your response to me was indicative of one that suggested that I did something wrong for saying what I said. I had every right to say it. It was a nice way of rebuking the people that are coming in here to harass us. It wasn't confrontational either as was your comment to me. I left it open, and you superimposed meaning on it that isn't there by assuming that I was only referring to the Progs. You, my friend, are guilty of what you are telling me not to do. You judged my motives without asking me questions.

AndrewK788

24th April 2008, 10:20 AM

I understand this, Andrew. I've been in this for more than 10 years. I studied in college to be a Pastor, worked as a Bible worker, a Literature Evangelist for about 4 years, and even worked in Evangelistic seminars. I've been through stuff and have seen things while reaching out to people in love that you likely don't even know of, at least not to the extent that I do. How many doors have you had slammed in your face for trying to share Jesus with people? How many times have you been persecuted for standing up for Jesus? How many people have actually gotten physically violent with you for standing up for Jesus? How many people have threatened you with physical violence for standing up for Jesus? Has your family left you because you stand up for Jesus? I could go on and on with this...

The bottom line here is that I know what it means to be on the front line, and I don't need people to accuse me of not being loving simply because I refer to harassers as being problematic. After being abused enough you learn to discern the spirits, because you know their ways.... So it's not so difficult to judge a person's character.

Your response to me was indicative of one that suggested that I did something wrong for saying what I said. I had every right to say it. It was a nice way of rebuking the people that are coming in here to harass us. It wasn't confrontational either as was your comment to me. I left it open, and you superimposed meaning on it that isn't there by assuming that I was only referring to the Progs. You, my friend, are guilty of what you are telling me not to do. You judged my motives without asking me questions.

I believe I stated specifically I was not aiming my comment directly at you, but rather it was a general statement. There is nothing wrong with repeating truths stated in the Bible. Now how you interpret my intent is up to you, but I meant nothing personal with it.