Learning the faith

[Kris10leigh]

I realized today while reading another thread what one of the complications is regarding learning to be faithful in a Messianic manner. Because I am learning online as opposed to learning from my family or even from a church, I am sort of cherry picking what I like about the relgion. With regards to Passover, some eat lamb, some do not. Some eat egg, some do not. Some cleanse the house completely of leaven and yeast, while others consider flat bread to be ok.

Man, I have a lot more to say but there's something wrong with my computer so that when I am finished I have to wait several lines for my typing to catch up with me. :sleep: It's rather annoying, so I'm done.

[zaksmummy]

We are in the same position as you. What I have found is that God has shown me what I need to do, and the people here have been a BIG help, opening my eyes to many things.

Its a process, you have to go with what God is showing you and not worry about the rest!

[johnd]

God had a plan and a purpose before man was ever created. It was to prove God is merciful and more than fair. He did so in such a way that it cost him dearly. But he emerged victorious and glorious.

Humanity (since he became a man) are not pawns but brethren. He came to save all men, even though all men would not have his salvation. They disdained it. First of all because it would take them off of the throne of their lives. Second it would mean they had to abandon tradition, bias, and presupposition to accept a systematic theology based on divine revelation. And people want to believe what they want to believe which goes back to being seated on the throne of their life.

What exasperates the truth seeker are all the isms and cults and religions all claiming to have not only truth but THE truth. My only complain with Messianic doctrine is that it tends to emulate unbelieving (in Yeshua) Judaism too much... only because it seems the Jewish thing to do.

This results from the utter mess the Gentile (Romanized) Church has made of most everything by being Antisemitic. Coupled with the fact that in most non-Messianic Jewish circles, believe in Yeshua is the one way out of being a Jew (in their eyes).

So the Messianic Jew is faced with a personal crisis here. The world down through the centuries has made no bones about it that they are Antisemitic. This includes even the Romanized Church (which has also hindered many Jews from becoming Messianic). So to be Jewish takes on an even deeper meaning... a close knit kinship (even with love / hate) tendencies... but a close knit kinship nevertheless... so when a Jew discovers the Messiah, to those who have not it seems this Jew has joined the Antisemite movement and if thus thrust from the close knit bond.

The true believer realizes it is worth it. But there is the lingering sense of being stripped of who they are. And there is the tendency to look back over the shoulder at the meat pots of Egypt so to speak while trudging through the wilderness seemingly alone.

To the Messianic Jew I say, you are not alone. Remember, Moshe made that trek alone as well. And look forward to the day when the rest of Israel who will one day make that trek as well.

To the Messianic Gentile, we must understand that the Jew has a dual purpose and role in this life. Jews are the physical vehicle through which God brought spiritual truth and reality into this world. And they are the natural producers of fruit in this spiritual tree... the Spirit Israel. So there is a physical Israel which no Gentile will ever be nor be entitled to the inheritance of (namely Eretz Yisro'el) nor the heritage of being a born Jew. But there is a Spirit Israel in which all are called to be Spirit Jews in.

[Kris10leigh]

Yeah, my computer is fast again! :clap: I'm embarassed to say what the problem was. :blush:

We are in the same position as you. What I have found is that God has shown me what I need to do, and the people here have been a BIG help, opening my eyes to many things.



The people here have been wonderful! No question there! My problem is that I tend to get caught up in rules and the "right way" to do things, but it doesn't last long. Once I realize what hard work it is, the teenager in me comes out. I don't think God meant for religion to be this hard, but that's just me. My original intent was to include the Biblical holidays into my life as a learning vehicle and because Yeshua celebrated them. Then I got caught in the nitty gritty details of it.




What exasperates the truth seeker are all the isms and cults and religions all claiming to have not only truth but THE truth. My only complain with Messianic doctrine is that it tends to emulate unbelieving (in Yeshua) Judaism too much... only because it seems the Jewish thing to do.
I hate to say this, because I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I am starting to wonder if perhaps Judiaism took God's word and pounded extra rules into it? :sorry: I can't get past what God meant with unleavened bread. On the surface, it seems simple. "No leaven shall be found among you." (Paraphrasing scripture) Back then there was much less to worry about food wise. People pretty much ate fruit off the tree or vine, unprocessed wheat and freshly slaughtered meat. There weren't leavening agents in wax to worry about contaminating the apple, for instance. In today's society, it is very difficult to mimic what God wanted us to do back then.


This results from the utter mess the Gentile (Romanized) Church has made of most everything by being Antisemitic. Coupled with the fact that in most non-Messianic Jewish circles, believe in Yeshua is the one way out of being a Jew (in their eyes).

I understand this. You aren't saying that the individual Christian is antisemitic, but that the religion itself pretty much is. I wouldn't say Christianity is actively antisemitic, but the fact that they do not work together makes it so. And the history is so very bad. And I am American, so I have a warpped view of things. I tend to look at the world through rose colored glasses. I'm sure there is active antisemitism out there today that I simply don't see. I KNOW it exists from Muslims today, but I'm speaking strictly of Christians.
[/quote]

[visionary]

I believe it is more important ... to follow what Paul said... Paul Tells Us To

"Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast. (and to) Keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7,8

[Kris10leigh]

"Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast. (and to) Keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7,8
:cool: Seems to me a whole sermon could be made of that.

Might we replace the word "yeast" with "sin" in that passage? Get rid of the old "sin" that you may be a new batch without sin. Keep the Frestival, not with the old "sin", the "sin' of malice and wickedness, but with (hmmm...maybe substitute "bread" with "life") "life" without "sin", the "life" of sincerity and truth."

:thumbsup:

[Tea]

To discover that eating yeast free flat bread is unacceptable has been quite a shock this year. As I have no access to matzah, and don't even know where to buy it from, we have always used either purchased or homemade flat bread. Now I have also discovered that flat bread is also unacceptable if it hasn't been cooked in under 18 minutes?? I have really felt quite discouraged and depressed about it this year.

[Lulav]

That is Rabbinic teaching Tea, I wouldn't worry if I were you, back in Moshe' day and even in Yeshua they didn't have microscopes to see what they see today. Basically the 18 minutes is a fence. You don't eat anything that has been raised with leaven. but most important is to get the leaven out of your flesh houses. :)

chagSameach!

[Tea]

Lulav I agree whole heartedly, and I usually tend to put more emphasis on the "leaven of the flesh" rather than the "leaven of the bread", as I feel that this generally tends to be over looked at times, and is in reality a greater issue for us than yeast.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of this being most likely another issue that would make our house unacceptable for other (if ever we were close enough to anyone) to come and partake with us.
Just me.
Tracey

[Texasbluebonnet]

That is Rabbinic teaching Tea, I wouldn't worry if I were you, back in Moshe' day and even in Yeshua they didn't have microscopes to see what they see today. Basically the 18 minutes is a fence. You don't eat anything that has been raised with leaven. but most important is to get the leaven out of your flesh houses. :)

chagSameach!

Amen, girlfriend! :clap:

[zaksmummy]

It is what my friends call the "threshing floor", you try to learn and understand what God is saying, get some help from people here, then pray again and ask God to reveal what is the way to go - ie with the spirit of something rather than the letter.

For example, I started a thread some time ago about eating meat and milk together from the verse about not cooking a goat in its mothers milk - it was very interesting and generated much discussion.

After reading the posts mostly pro not eating it together, I prayed about it and did not feel led by God to do it. This is me, I'm not saying that he hasnt led other people a different way.

[johnd]

Yeah, my computer is fast again! :clap: I'm embarassed to say what the problem was. :blush:

Pilot error? It happens... especially the older we get.

I hate to say this, because I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I am starting to wonder if perhaps Judaism took God's word and pounded extra rules into it? :sorry: I can't get past what God meant with unleavened bread. On the surface, it seems simple. "No leaven shall be found among you." (Paraphrasing scripture) Back then there was much less to worry about food wise. People pretty much ate fruit off the tree or vine, unprocessed wheat and freshly slaughtered meat. There weren't leavening agents in wax to worry about contaminating the apple, for instance. In today's society, it is very difficult to mimic what God wanted us to do back then.

Yeshua said it best in Matthew 13 wherein he described Judaism (the Kingdom) as the lump of dough with leaven hidden in and the tares sown in the wheatfield. He was describing Judaism (and God's concessions to preserve the remnant).

I understand this. You aren't saying that the individual Christian is antisemitic, but that the religion itself pretty much is. I wouldn't say Christianity is actively antisemitic, but the fact that they do not work together makes it so. And the history is so very bad. And I am American, so I have a warpped view of things. I tend to look at the world through rose colored glasses. I'm sure there is active antisemitism out there today that I simply don't see. I KNOW it exists from Muslims today, but I'm speaking strictly of Christians.


At the heart of it all is Anti-God-ism. And this is much of the time accomplished by interference (even well intentioned interference). Look at the Hagar example we have with Abram and Sarai. They tried to help God out... he didn't need no help... and look at the countless generations of grief and antisemitism that resulted.

[Wags]

I think learning a Torah life style it is a bit like learning to drive a car - when you first start learning there are "so many rules" and things to remember to do that you feel a bit overwhelmed by it all. But you study and pass your written test, gain experience behind the wheel and eventually pass the driving test. And many years later all of those things that seemed so overwhelming are second nature.

So too it is with learning Torah - at first it seems so overwhelming, but as time goes by it becomes part of your daily life and part of your nature. Not that anyone should ever stop learning, even those that grew up in a Torah observant house still need to learn and refresh their memory. They cycle of the festivals helps us do that. And of course Torah is read every Shabbat so that we can always continue to grow and learn.

[Lulav]

I think learning a Torah life style it is a bit like learning to drive a car - when you first start learning there are "so many rules" and things to remember to do that you feel a bit overwhelmed by it all. But you study and pass your written test, gain experience behind the wheel and eventually pass the driving test. And many years later all of those things that seemed so overwhelming are second nature.

So too it is with learning Torah - at first it seems so overwhelming, but as time goes by it becomes part of your daily life and part of your nature. Not that anyone should ever stop learning, even those that grew up in a Torah observant house still need to learn and refresh their memory. They cycle of the festivals helps us do that. And of course Torah is read every Shabbat so that we can always continue to grow and learn.:thumbsup:can't rep you but,excellent!

[Kris10leigh]

:thumbsup:can't rep you but,excellent!
Don't worry. I repped her already! ;)

[visionary]

Don't worry. I repped her already! ;)Hey, I repped her too...

:clap:

[FaithfulWife]

My conversion rabbi explained it this way:

Each of us in on our own ladder and we all are in different places on our ladders. Some start low and know nothing and begin to go up the ladder and become more observant. Some have the privilege of starting in the middle or high in observation but the idea is to start wherever you start, and then begin to climb your ladder!

I liked that analogy because we aren't all in the same place. The idea is to grow and learn from where you are... and keep moving . Our salvation is already bought and paid for--now it's a question of observing as a way of living godly lives that please Hashem. :)