Red Headed Step Child

[JM]

How does the Orthodox Church view Baptists? Can we attain salvation in our Church or do we have to be a member of the Orthodox Church? Are we seen as a the red headed step child to the Orthodox faith? :eek:

[ufonium2]

First, you should know that we don't even presume to judge our own salvation, much less yours. We have no concept of assured salvation, for ourselves or anyone else.

That said, we believe (just as you do, I'm sure) that our church is the church of the New Testament, the fullest and the true form of Christianity on earth. We like to say that we know where the Church is, but we don't know where it isn't. In other words, we know that we have the truth, but we don't know who else has it or doesn't have it.

In general, we probably take a much softer line with you than your church does with us. We don't presume to judge your salvation, and we don't send missionaries to try to convert Baptists.

[JM]

Very helpful, thank you.

[Peter]

Salvation is first and foremost by the Grace of God. This is a mystery and is not within the limitations of man to put an "occupied" or "unoccupied" sign on it.

We believe that salvation is a mystery, wherein God grants us His mercy while allowing us to participate in that grace. This mystery is His Church.

The Orthodox Church is a mystery with organization. We teach that those who hold to Orthodox teachings, and are in communion with others who do the same, are also partaking in the mystery of the body of Christ. By this we say "we know where the church is."

The organization part of Orthodoxy is what gets some hung up. One does not join the Orthodox Church, per se, but joins oneself to the mystery of Christ's union with His body by holding to Orthodoxy (in this way it would appear that we believe in works righteousness, but we don't).

Ours is not the place to say that one is saved or not saved. God alone knows this.
God's grace goes beyond the limitations of man's understanding and comprehension.
We do say that if you hold to Orthodox ways (Doctrine, theology and practice) you will find salvation. (That is, God will reveal salvation to you through these things)

The best phrase, to answer your question more directly, that I've heard quoted within Orthodoxy come from Blessed Augustine: "There are some that the church has that God does not. And there are some that God has that the church does not."

In short, a Baptist may just very well be our true spritual brother or sister because God's grace is so limitless. However, it would be wrong of us to say that a Baptist is not our true spiritual brother or sister for the same reason.

While we should not hold such a one in contempt, we must be careful. A Baptist is not Orthodox. If they were, they would not be Baptist.

Above all, an Orthodox Christian must never stand in judgement over anothers soul.

Can one be saved and not be Orthodox? I believe so. But one would know with more surity if one were Orthodox.

Peace.

Peter

P.S. My appologies and repentance if I have gone astray from Orthodox teaching. I am very young in the faith and may not yet understand. If I err, please correct me my Orthodox brethren.

[countrymousenc]

Welcome to TAW, Street Preacher. :)

I think you've gotten good answers so far. I'm no expert, either, but here's my 2 cents. While we do not presume to judge whether or not you'll attain the Kingdom of Heaven, we do definitely believe you'd be better equipped for the journey if you were Orthodox, and therefore a member of the Eucharistic community.

[The Prokeimenon!]

Dear Street Preacher,
Welcome! :wave:

I was an Independent, Fundamental, KJV Baptist before becoming Orthodox.

The other posts answered the questions very well. I hope you stick around and learn about the Orthodox Church. Our beliefs our radically different from Baptist beliefs. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have.

Moses

[Eusebios]

Hmm.
Good to see you again SP!
Good answers from my Brothers and Sisters in Christ as well!
Under His mercy,
eusebios.
:bow:

[Rick of Wessex]

Countrymousenc,

Your answer was beautiful. :clap:

Your brother in XC,
Rick

[Matthias]

I believe Christians of all denominations or non-denominations get to Heaven on how they live their life, not by what specific denomination they belong or don't belong to...

I mean, come on!

[JM]

Dear Street Preacher,
Welcome! :wave:

I was an Independent, Fundamental, KJV Baptist before becoming Orthodox.

The other posts answered the questions very well. I hope you stick around and learn about the Orthodox Church. Our beliefs our radically different from Baptist beliefs. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have.

Moses
Moses the Black, what was it that lead you away from your former church?

[The Prokeimenon!]

Moses the Black, what was it that lead you away from your former church?

Well, nothing lead away from my former Church, so much as I was lead to The Orthodox Church. Not to get hung up on semantics :)

Rather than give you the whole play by play, I'll try to make it brief :)

I was raised as an Ind. Fund. KJV Baptist. I stopped going to Church altogether at age 19 and became an alcoholic. When I came to myself and saw the pig-pen that my life had become, I decided to turn my life around. With the help of my parents, I checked into a Christian rehab farm, run by an Independent, Fundamental, Bible-believing, premillennial, hard-preaching, soul-winning, etc etc etc Baptist Church. I was dedicated becoming sober, repenting, and doing the will of God. I read the Holy Bible, cover to cover (KJV of course).

I went on a tour of fellow independent Churches with a Gospel singing group to raise money for our ministry. It was there that I noticed how many different interpretations of basic doctrines there were among people who are supposed to believe in the same book (and in the same translation of the same book). I was told that the Holy Spirit would speak to my heart as I read the Scriptures, and He would teach me the meaning of His Word. Well, bottom line is, either this doctrine is wrong, or the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic- because nobody I met believed the same things as the other.

For example: One preacher says "Repentance is necessary for salvation", another says "No! Repentance is a work! We are saved by faith, not works" and yet another says "repentance is necessary, but it's not really a work." Pretty soon the Bible verses start flying back and forth. It got ugly sometimes ;)

I knew of the Orthodox Church from a friend who had converted after a paralyzing car accident. When I got home from the farm, sober and desiring to do God's will, I talked to him about it. We had talked many times before about Orthodoxy, but I was either drunk or didn't care. This time I listened.

At my first Orthodox service after coming home, I told the Priest I wanted to be a Catechumen, which is a person preparing to become Orthodox. Incidentally, my future wife was standing in line behind me and overheard me talking to the Priest. We struck up conversation and the rest is history :clap:

I read a ton of books. I prayed. I studied history. Orthodox history stretched all the way back to the Apostles. I found "The Trail of Blood", a tract which charts Baptist history, to be, quite frankly, poorly written fiction. I saw the doctrines of the Orthodox Church were the doctrines of the Apostles. And all those verses that remained un-highlighted in my Bible suddenly made sense in the context of Holy Tradition. It was that same Holy Tradition that decided which books were truly Scripture. If I believed Scripture, I had to believe Holy Tradition. Without one, there cannot be the other.

Most importantly, I found that it is in the context of the life of the Orthodox Church that salvation is found. Not just salvation from Hell, but salvation from sin!! For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2) This salvation is not a "say a prayer and believe" kind of salvation, it is a life-transforming salvation. It is the crucifixion of ourselves daily with fasting and prayer. It is Life.

I was received by Holy Chrismation into the Orthodox Church April 26th, 2003.

My mom had a terrible time with it. I assured her, as I assure you now and any other Baptist who may read this, that Orthodoxy for me was not a rejection of my childhood Faith, but the fulfillment of it. I am so grateful to my Baptist Preachers and Sunday School teachers who taught me to love Christ and read His Holy Scriptures and memorize them. Without that seed of Truth, I would have never found "The Church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." (Eph 1:22-23)

Moses

[JM]

Thank you very much, that was very detailed. Another question Moses, do you see Baptists as having only a small part of the Orthodox faith?

[The Prokeimenon!]

Thank you very much, that was very detailed. Another question Moses, do you see Baptists as having only a small part of the Orthodox faith?

This is another very good question.

The answer is, unfortunately, a "non-answer."

I know that The Orthodox Church is the fulness of Truth. It's not my place to say whether one person or congregation has more or less Truth than another.

Moses