woman pastors

[homeschoolmama]

I'm going to a Methodist church. Though I don't consider myself Methodist (no offense to any of you, really!) but more like, hey, I'm a Christian. I accepted Christ as my Savior.

Anyway, we've only been going there a few months. We've gone to much more conservative churches, and they ended up mistreating my kids. One incident, if I had the money, I would've sued the church (and probably won if I did). This church we're going to is a bit liberal for me, but the services are great and they are so much better with my kids than I've seen at any church in a very long time.

Recently they hired a woman pastor as an associate pastor. I'm a little bothered by this. I don't know where in the Bible it says a woman could be in this type of leadership in the church. And their site, all I could find (from the "official" UMC site) was more like to do with feminism and stuff - I didn't see anything from the Bible there.

This is an honest question - I hope I'm not starting a debate because really it's not what I'm after. Either way, it looks like we will stay there at this point because we are considering relocating. My kids need some stability until we do move - it's important for them. But in the meantime, I want to work out this issue if I can. I'm not out to offend anyone - I really just wanted to ask about this issue.

Thanks. :)

[AquilaGT]

Hi homeschool mama - welcome to Wesley's Parish. I'll try and lay out the Biblical position that most Methodists and Wesleyans would support.

The Bible is full of examples of women holding sacred authority, with a couple of verses advising women to be careful in dealing with cultural issues so that the church and the mission of spreading the Gospel are not harmed.

Methodists and Wesleyans look to the full counsel and authority of God’s Word, the Bible, which affirms the equal role of women in ministry. Methodists and Wesleyans do NOT believe in pulling a couple of verses out of context and limiting who God calls.

Both men and women were made in God's image (Genesis 1.27), and the prophet Joel foretold that sons and daughters would prophesy, which means to proclaim or preach (Joel 2.28-29). This happened at Pentecost when Mary the mother of Jesus and other women were in the upper room, and that very prophesy is noted (Acts 1.14, 2.1-4, 17-18)

Anna was a prophet at time of Jesus as an infant. Luke 2.36-38

Despite cultural prohibitions, Jesus interacted with women as equals, engaging them in theological discourse and Messianic mission, such as Mary of Bethany making the better choice to stay out of the kitchen to learn, the Samaritan woman evangelist, etc. (Mt 15.21-2, Mt 27.55-56, Mt 28.1-10, Lk 10.38-42, Mk 7.26-40, Mk 15.40-41, Mk 16.1-7 Lk 24.1-10, Jn 4.4-42, Jn 11.1-44, Jn 20.15-18)

Among the band of disciples were Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna and others (Luke 8.3). Mary Magdalene has traditionally been called the Apostle to the Apostles due her special role as the one selected to proclaim the resurrection of Christ (Mt 28, Mk 16, Luke 24, John 20)

Priscilla was a missionary and pastor, and co-worker with Paul. She taught Apollos. Usually listed first before her husband Aquila implying that she was the lead pastor(Acts 18.1-3, 24-26, Romans 16.3, 1 Cor 16.19)

Junia was an apostle (Romans 16.7)

Phoebe was a deacon/minister at Cenchreae (Romans 16.1)

Philipp's daughters were prophets (Act 21.9), and Chloe (1 Cor 1.11), Nympha (Col 4.15) and Apphia (Philemon v 2) were leaders or teachers in their respective congregations.

Paul affirms the ministry of these women when he states “There is no male or female in Christ” (Gal 3.27-28).

Looking back in the Old Testament - Miriam was a prophet (Ex 15.20), and Micah 6.4 says God sent Moses, Aaron AND Miriam to lead the Jews, so Miriam was prophesying and leading the Jewish people.

Deborah was a prophet and the ruler (judge) over Israel (Judges 4.4), and even went to the battlefront.

Huldah was a prophet that was consulted by the priest Hilkiah on behalf of King Josiah even though there were male prophets around during that time. (2 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 34)

So there are a couple of verses addressing specific situations in certain churches that got out of hand, so Paul wisely tells the women to learn quietly and respect social or cultural norms when they do speak (1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14). That's why he tells the women in 1 Cor 11 who are worship leaders to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy during that time.

Methodists and Wesleyans feel that to apply these specific situations to all times and cultures, ignoring all the verses that affirm women, would be poor application of the Bible. It would be like taking the verses that say greet one another with a holy kiss and literally demanding that all Christians kiss each other upon greeting instead of recognizing the underlying principle of warmth and affection for each other, which might take different methods in different cultures.

If you want more Bible based information on the role of women, I suggest Christians for Biblical Equality (cbeinternational.org). There are lots of free articles that go more in-depth on these issues.

[homeschoolmama]

I totally see your point! But one other question: what about where it says about not allowing women to speak in the church or have authority over a man?

Again, not debating, I'm trying to sort this out. What you said did make a lot of sense. My dh did tell me how Jesus spoke to the women and Rabbis at the time did not speak directly to women as Jesus did.

I really appreciate your taking the time and showing me places in the Bible about women in authority, etc. :thumbsup:

[Kristen.NewCreation]

I can't speak to this from a denominational perspective, but I will speak from my thoughts.

Most churches are considered a non-profit organization, and therefore has a board of directors (or should have). The board is actually over the pastor, and is composed of men and women many times.

I'm not sure how I would feel about having a single woman pastor, but I would be totally comfortable with a husband/wife pastoring together. I am with you on reading scripture as the man is the spiritual leader of the home. Yet scripture provides many instances of women who were selected and held important positions.

I find it interesting that we allow women to minister and lead parachurch organizations, but have issues with women behind the pulpit. Yet, I would have to be honest and say that I'm not sure if I'd be totally comfortable with a woman pastor. I think I need to do some more study on this, because I'm sure this will come up again at some point.

Thanks for the questions!

[Speculative]

I totally see your point! But one other question: what about where it says about not allowing women to speak in the church or have authority over a man?


I think Aquila was addressing this when he posted


So there are a couple of verses addressing specific situations in certain churches that got out of hand, so Paul wisely tells the women to learn quietly and respect social or cultural norms when they do speak (1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14). That's why he tells the women in 1 Cor 11 who are worship leaders to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy during that time.

Methodists and Wesleyans feel that to apply these specific situations to all times and cultures, ignoring all the verses that affirm women, would be poor application of the Bible. It would be like taking the verses that say greet one another with a holy kiss and literally demanding that all Christians kiss each other upon greeting instead of recognizing the underlying principle of warmth and affection for each other, which might take different methods in different cultures.

That was a great post Aquila--thanks for all the thought and research that went into that.

And drop by anytime, homeschoolmama. Just don't cause any trouble around here. That's my job :D (just kidding)

God Bless :)

[AquilaGT]

I'll try and give a quick overview of the authority/speaking in church issues:

1 Cor 14.34-36 says women should be silent in the church and ask their husbands at home any questions they have. Remember, some of these women were in a public meeting for the first - sounds like they took their new found freedom a bit too far, disrupting the service. So Paul wisely says the women should ask their questions to their husbands later. Paul had to write a lot of being orderly in worship to the Corinthins - see all the stuff on tongues.

Now, is this a blanket prohibition against women ever speaking in the church? Even churches that don't allow women as pastors allow women to have conversations in church, teach some classes, ask questions, sing in the choir, etc. If you wanted to take this with a wooden hyper-literalism with no regard for the particular situation, women and girls could not utter one word once they went into the church building or service.

1 Tim 2.11-12 Note first that it says that a woman is able to learn, making sure to be in submission to the teachings of the church. Again, remember most of these women had not had the advantage of education, or even participating in public meeting before. Then Paul says he doe not allow women to assume authority over a man. The root word carries the meaning of taking authority in a domineering or aggressive way. So the meaning is that a woman should only assume that authority in the proper time after learning what she needs to know to be in a teaching/preaching position.

Several verses in the New Testament address the relationship of the husband and wife. Husbands are called to sacraficial love as Christ gave himself for us, and women are to submit as in the Lord. It always comes back to the spiritual dimension of being Christlike, not lording authority over someone else. And the most significant verses in this area clearly start with mutual submission. Ephesians 5.21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. You can't sperate that verse 21 from the section that follows on wives and husbands, although some Bible publishers put a space between the verses.

Hope this helps, it's is a very quick high level overview. There is a lot of material on these issues from an evangelical perspective, especially at cbeinternational.org, if you want to dig deeper.

[homeschoolmama]

You make a lot of sense! Thanks so much. I think I understand much better now. I'm so glad I asked and nobody got hurt! :blush::thumbsup:

[GraceSeeker]

You make a lot of sense! Thanks so much. I think I understand much better now. I'm so glad I asked and nobody got hurt! :blush::thumbsup:


How can we learn if we can't ask? I'm sure glad you did. And, btw, I totally affirm Aquila's answers. I've been a UM pastor for 25 years, and found myself taking notes on some of those points. Very well said.

[Texas Lynn]

The United Methodist Church is not a fundamentalist church body. We have some fundamentalists but they are a minority.

We ordain women and do not believe it is necessarry that such be specifically recommended or otherwise stated in a positive term by the Bible. We are aware of the sexist nature of the ancient culture therein.

[MarkEvan]

This is an extract from Wesleys notes on the NT;


1 Corinthians 14;


34Let your women be silent in the churches - Unless they are under an extraordinary impulse of the Spirit. For, in other cases, it is not permitted them to speak - By way of teaching in public assemblies. But to be in subjection - To the man whose proper office it is to lead and to instruct the congregation. Gen 3:16. 35And even if they desire to learn anything - Still they are not to speak in public, but to ask their own husbands at home - That is the place, and those the persons to inquire of.





1 Timothy 2




12To usurp authority over the man - By public teaching. 13First - So that woman was originally the inferior. 14And Adam was not deceived - The serpent deceived Eve: Eve did not deceive Adam, but persuaded him. "Thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife," Gen 3:17. The preceding verse showed why a woman should not "usurp authority over the man." this shows why she ought not "to teach." She is more easily deceived, and more easily deceives. The woman being deceived transgressed - "The serpent deceived" her, Gen 3:13, and she transgressed.




Mark

[homeschoolmama]

I don't see the ancient church as being sexist. In fact, in Bible times, it was the Hebrews who gave women leadership roles, not the other cultures of that time.

I am a conservative, going to a Methodist church right now. And I know there are others as well. There are conservatives who express God's grace and aren't so stiff. I can also tell you there are conservatives who believe in a gentle way of handling their children but that's for another topic, argument, whatever.

People misunderstand that the idea of the woman submitting to their husbands is more like slavery or something but it's not. The Bible says for Husbands to love their Wives as well. With my husband, we discuss so much together - we have a good relationship. Not perfect, mind you. And I can be strong willed.

[Texas Lynn]

I don't see the ancient church as being sexist. In fact, in Bible times, it was the Hebrews who gave women leadership roles, not the other cultures of that time.

To a great degree this is true which makes the use of ancient texts to enforce sexist norms all the more unfortunate.

People misunderstand that the idea of the woman submitting to their husbands is more like slavery or something but it's not. The Bible says for Husbands to love their Wives as well. With my husband, we discuss so much together - we have a good relationship. Not perfect, mind you. And I can be strong willed.

You should thank God every day for being "strong-willed". The marital relationship is one in which the spouses set their own rules as to what is acceptable or not to the other. That is appropriate. What is not appropriate is some telling people what they can or cannot do based on what kind of genitals they have.

[Speculative]

I am a conservative, going to a Methodist church right now. And I know there are others as well. There are conservatives who express God's grace and aren't so stiff. I can also tell you there are conservatives who believe in a gentle way of handling their children but that's for another topic, argument, whatever.
I think that's the beauty of the UMC--our congregation is on the liberal side, but we have some conservatives, too. The liturgy is very conservative and the youth Bible studies are pretty traditional. The liberalism comes in with some of the adult Bible studies, and there are a few of us trying to hold down the middle. So, there's a little bit for everyone, and we all try to learn from eachother and serve God together.

I'm glad to see you've decided to check out the UMC, and I think it would be nice if you found a home there.

God Bless :)

[GraceSeeker]

This is an extract from Wesleys notes on the NT;


1 Corinthians 14;

1 Timothy 2

(See Mark's post above for those actual quotes that don't copy when quoting another's post.)


Mark, while Wesley is looked to as an authority, he is not seen as uniquely authoritative. That is, at least in the United Methodist Church, we don't hold him up as the sole interpreter of the Bible.

Using the model that Wesley himself did in what we term the Wesleyan quadrilateral, not only do we look to scripture, but also tradition, reason, and experience. In my experience (and this fits well with reason) females, no less than males, are called and empowered by the Holy Spirit to do ministry. These ministries include serving, teaching, preaching, and the role of pastor.

Indeed, I would argue that since, in Romans 16:1, Paul referred to Phoebe as a διακονον -- usually translated "servant" but actually the very same word that Paul uses for "deacon" in other passages -- that both Paul and scripture recognize that it is appropriate for women to exercise these roles in the life of the church. Thus, the only thing that argues against women serving in ministry is tradition, and it is most pointedly the tradition of men.

[MoeSzyslak]

What is wrong with this website? I can't do a post without getting error messages anymore?

On with the subject at hand. Wesley had also come to the conclusion that the Montanist Christians we're true christians.


"The Montanists in the second and third centuries we're true scriptural Christians" Journal and Diaries 20:356.


One can not read more then one paragraph about the Montanists before you realize they not only had women pastors, but in fact two of its three 'founders' were women and priests by the names of Priscilla and Maximilla. So it seems to me that Wesley acknowledged a variety of interpretations on the subject.

Oh. In case anyone is actually curious. The Montanist we're essentially Pentecostal/Charismatic by nature and teaching.

[jamiel]

Hi, :wave: Just throwing my two cents in here:


And the most significant verses in this area clearly start with mutual submission. Ephesians 5.21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. You can't sperate that verse 21 from the section that follows on wives and husbands, although some Bible publishers put a space between the verses.



ITA with you! http://home.att.net/~molock/yes.gif Eph. 5:21 connects both sections and shouldn't be seperated from 5:22!!! http://home.att.net/~molock/no.gif Eph. 5:22 in the original Greek actually reads without a verb:

Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord.

The verb comes from 5:21 -- and yet translators add the word "submit" when it's not there! (Yes, even KJV does this . . . ) I don't think there is ONE Bible translation out there though that has it like above, is there? :scratch:

What difference does it make if "submit" is or isn't in 5:22? If 5:21's verb is to be taken from 5:22, then that means BOTH 5:22 and 5:25-33 fall under the heading of 5:21 (wives being addressed, then husbands -- with greater detail of how husbands are to mutually submit to their wives, because perhaps a further explanation for the revolutionary concept is needed). As Christians we're all supposed to submit to each other. That does seem to fit into the broader Christian ethic, doesn't it? http://home.att.net/~molock/yes.gif

Mutual submission fits in beautifully with the exchange between man and woman/male and female and really, makes a lot better sense from a loving, just God, which is undoubtedly is. When you dig a little deeper it's AMAZING what you will find here and there throughout the Bible. Even small things that aren't so small can be discerned as they could COMPLETELY alter what the verse is saying.

I think when the Word is in the hands of a select group of translators who may or may not have a motivating factor for their translation (consciously or unconsciously) then this is what you get. But, that's JMO and hopefully over time with more info getting out that will change. (I'm prayin'!) :bow:



As for some being uncomfortable with a woman pastor (without her husband even), there's nothing to be uncomfortable about. I know some (or maybe most, I don't know) aren't used to it . . . but we see women in the secular world all the time in positions of authority. http://home.att.net/~molock/huh.gif I know, I don't understand the unease at all -- but trust me it's all okay and in fact the Body will be enriched in ways like never before with the inclusion of the other half of humanity called by God to serve in a teaching/leadership role of the chuch. :) We all have spiritual gifts given to us by the Holy Spirit, and these vary. Jesus was about inclusiveness, not exclusiveness.


You should thank God every day for being "strong-willed". The marital relationship is one in which the spouses set their own rules as to what is acceptable or not to the other. That is appropriate. What is not appropriate is some telling people what they can or cannot do based on what kind of genitals they have.

ITA! :wave:

Matthew 20:

25Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

WWJD? Well, Jesus was gentle and humble in heart (Matt. 11:29) but when necessary he was strong willed too (esp. with the Pharisees). Women are to be modest, but no doormats! http://home.att.net/~molock/no.gif Men are to be gentle and humble like Jesus too, but for everyone there is a time and place to be strong willed. In proper context (like so many other qualities) it's a great attribute.

I'm glad to see you've decided to check out the UMC, and I think it would be nice if you found a home there.

Last Sunday I was baptized and became a member of my local UMC! :) I love it and am SO happy being a member of the UMC. It's so friendly and comfortable. :) It's by far the best fit for me and I can't see being another denomination.


As for the 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 passage, I do believe "head" should be translated as "source", "origin", or "ground of being". Other than a physical head this is the second most common translation of kephale. Why don't lexicons mention this translation? Because they are not complete enough and there are also other words for kephale (when if Paul meant "beginning", "boss", or "chief" he could've used arche (as he did for Christ elsewhere) but didn't.) Also, Paul I believe in context is making a pun with this regarding woman coming from man and men coming from women . . .

In the social context of the time, ancient Greeks also thought sperm came from a man's physical head! Thought was in the heart instead. This leads to regarding Paul use of "head" as "source" or "origin" (which Eve was from Adam). And, also the Greek myth of the goddess Athena being born from Zeus' physical head also connects in with this . . . It all makes so much better sense when these other pieces are put together.

John Temple Bristow's book, What Paul Really Said About Women I highly recommend! He did an experiment where (in Ephesians) he took Paul's words in the usual English, Biblical version, translated them back into Greek -- then translated into English again -- and they didn't match! Conservative, traditional understanding of what Paul said here is wrong. In fact, as he says, "our English words imply ideas Paul deliberately avoided! If Paul wanted to say what we think he said, then he would've chose quite different words when he wrote." I personally think this book should be required reading for all Christians actually.



One can not read more then one paragraph about the Montanists before you realize they not only had women pastors, but in fact two of its three 'founders' were women and priests by the names of Priscilla and Maximilla. So it seems to me that Wesley acknowledged a variety of interpretations on the subject.


But is Wesley objecting to them being women pastors or what they taught? As you mentioned, there are a variety of interpretations on the subject.


Another scripture mention on this subject (indirectly perhaps) is from Jesus Himself regarding "Jezebel" in Revelation 2. He slams her for what she teaches . . . yet says not one word objecting to her teaching! If He had (or has) trouble with women leading in the church -- then there was the perfect opportunity for Him to comment an objection regarding that but didn't. Many societal taboos regarding women (and also including religious and racial ones) were broken by Jesus. :)


God Bless. :)

[MoeSzyslak]

But is Wesley objecting to them being women pastors or what they taught? As you mentioned, there are a variety of interpretations on the subject.


No. He is not making a objection to them as pastors or anything they taught. He is stating they are a "scriptural" church. He is supporting the Montanists Christians.

Another poster quoted some Wesley quotes which spoke against women pastors. I was using this Wesly teaching as a defense for women pastors. If he knew they had women pastors and he strongly disagreed, why would he call them a 'scriptural church'?

I was just trying to show another side of Wesley's thinking. I probably didn't make it too clear.

[jamiel]

I was just trying to show another side of Wesley's thinking. I probably didn't make it too clear.


Okay, sorry about that I misunderstood. I'm very tired here. Take care. :wave:


God Bless. :)

[GraceSeeker]

Well, homeschoolmama, have we been of any help? Or have we become just another noisy gong clanging in the sanctuary?

[homeschoolmama]

Nope, you're not being noisy. I still need to sort this all out.

I do tell my daughters that just because I'm unsure of this doesn't mean I'm judging the church wrongly, etc. It doesn't mean we quit this church either. No church is perfect and it's hard to agree on every point. It is a Christian church. Like even though there's a lot of people there, I see the head pastor reaching out to us and really appreciate that! :thumbsup: There are a lot of great things about this church!

[MarkEvan]

Mark, while Wesley is looked to as an authority, he is not seen as uniquely authoritative. That is, at least in the United Methodist Church, we don't hold him up as the sole interpreter of the Bible.

Using the model that Wesley himself did in what we term the Wesleyan quadrilateral, not only do we look to scripture, but also tradition, reason, and experience. In my experience (and this fits well with reason) females, no less than males, are called and empowered by the Holy Spirit to do ministry. These ministries include serving, teaching, preaching, and the role of pastor.

Indeed, I would argue that since, in Romans 16:1, Paul referred to Phoebe as a διακονον -- usually translated "servant" but actually the very same word that Paul uses for "deacon" in other passages -- that both Paul and scripture recognize that it is appropriate for women to exercise these roles in the life of the church. Thus, the only thing that argues against women serving in ministry is tradition, and it is most pointedly the tradition of men.


Graceseeker, what we see from the apostle Pauls teaching is that Eve was decieved while Adam was not, I do not contend that a woman being a deacon is wrong, nor a prophet nor an evangelist.......these positions do not hold authority over the teaching of the word. It is this authority over the word that I believe Paul (and Peter) address, it is this area that I believe a woman is not to have authority over a man (we cannot deny Pauls words.....so what do they mean?).


Mark :)

[GraceSeeker]

we cannot deny Pauls words.....so what do they mean?.


It means that we have different views regarding how to interpret them.

First the passage you cite does not have anything to do with having authority over the word, as you seem to have inferred. It is about Paul's view on a woman having authority over a man. (BTW, if you look carefully, the reason that Paul actually gives for that is not that Eve was deceived, but that Adam was formed first.) However, a pastor does not have authority over any person, hence a woman serving as a pastor would not be exercising authority over men. A pastor is a shepherd tending (i.e. serving) the flock, leading and guiding them, but not exercising authority over them. What a pastor does exercise authority with regard to is interpreting and proclaiming the word of God, but this is not at all excluded in what Paul says here.

However, one might project that a deacon, in tending to the distribution of food (which was their initial responsibility in Acts) might be in a position to exercise some degree of authority over a man, so then why is it permissible for Phoebe to be a deacon. Let me suggest that the application of this passage to the corporate context, be it food distribution or preaching, as opposed to the interpersonal relationships within a family, are misplaced.

[MoeSzyslak]

Women in a Pastoral position was actually a stumbling block for me when I first joined the Methodist church. So I certainly know what some folks are going through. Since then I firmly believe that if instead of taking one sentence of the Bible out of context, you read it in light of the whole paragraph its in and the rest of the New Testament, that the Bible does not condemn women pastors.

First important thing to realize is that the New testament speaks of two different roles. That of Pastor and that of Teacher. ( Eph 4:11, Rom 12:7, 1Cor 12:27) While a Pastor should always be a Teacher (1Tim3:3) A teacher is not necessarily a Pastor. This is really just common sense too. I had teachers in College, but they weren’t my pastor. I have a teacher in my Disciple study, but he’s not my Pastor. On a non-scholastic level, there are people in my church who are very active in ministries, they are my teachers of proper Christian action and works, but not necessarily my Pastor.

So let’s take a look at one of these suspect scriptures. “I do not permit a women to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” 1Tim2:12. Now if I wanted to read this literally, it says a women can’t teach. (doesn’t say anything about Pastor) But this literal reading will contradict other scriptures. If a women can’t teach? Why are they prophesying in 1Cor11:5 and again in Acts21:9. If a women can’t teach, why is it called Chloe’s household, Why is Phoebe called a Deacon of the Church. (Rom16:1) Why is Priscilla called Paul’s “fellow worker”. (rom16:3) Why are women permitted to sing in church or in choirs? (The Christian world is quite blessed in the wisdom of our songs) Why do women lead bible studies? Why are there women readers in church? Why do women teach Sunday school? If this is to be taken literally , that women can’t be teachers, then it both contradicts scripture and every single church in the history of Christendom is responsible for breaking it at some level. I don’t believe in either of those options, so there must be another interpretation. John Chrysostom (third century writer) says the following about the women in Timothy’s congregation. “But now there is apt to be great noise among them, much clamor and talking, and nowhere so much as in this place. They may all be seen here talking more then in the marketplace, or at the bath. For as if they came hither for recreation, they are all engaged in conversing in unprofitable subjects.” The women at this church we’re sitting around gossiping and talking about unprofitable subjects and being disruptive. Good sound advice would be to tell them to be quiet. I, personally, like this interpretation. It fits together with the other scriptures and historical church practice about teaching. A literal interpretation contradicts other scripture. (not to mention makes every single church in Christendom guilty. Except maybe the Russian pre-Nikonian Old Believers)

“Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak.” 1cor14:34. This is exactly like above. Once again, this is not talking about Pastors. It is dealing with silence and improper speaking. And if I interpret it literally, I fall into the same scriptural contradictions above. In the broad sense of this whole paragraph (1cor14:26-40) it is talking about order in the church meeting. And it is right. Good church order would call for women (and men) to be quiet and not be disruptive and talkative during the service.

“If they want to learn something, let them ask their husbands when they get home, for it is shameful for a women to speak in church.” 1Cor14:35. Once again not dealing with Pastors. It’s a issue of silence and improper speaking. If I interpret this literally not only do I fall into the scriptural contradictions above, but it actually says a women shouldn’t learn in church. I don’t even need to explain what’s wrong with that. Something many folks don’t realize for the first several hundred years of Christianity, the women sat on the left side of the church and the men sat on the right. So if a women was to ask her husband a question, she would literally have to yell it across the aisle. So if she had a question, maybe it should wait. It’d be a little disruptive to yell across the aisle in the middle of service. Same for men. You got a question for your wife, it’d be just as disruptive to yell across the aisle. Wait. This is once again dealing with silence in church and improper speaking.

So far we’ve seen nothing about Pastors. But we’ve seen that scriptures certainly did allow women to teach and speak in Church. Therefore those passages that seem to contradict must be interpreted otherwise. (unless you believe scripture can contradict itself.) Looking at other scriptures and the proper context of the paragraphs they are used in, I think they deal with proper order in the church. Keep quiet. Stop talking about unprofitable things. Don’t yell question s across the aisle. Good sound advice whether you’re a man or women. Apparently in Timothy’s congregation and in the Corinthians, the troublemakers we’re the women. (maybe the men we’re asleep?) It could have been different elsewhere.

Now, lets go to Pastors. “A elder must be blameless, the husband of one women.” 1Tim3:2. When this one sentence is taken out of context, it certainly sounds like a elder has to be a man. But lets back up to the beginning of the paragraph. It starts out “If a man desires the position of a elder…” So this paragraph is addressed to men who wish to be an elder and the qualifications in verse 2 and 3 are the qualifications for that man. It doesn’t prohibit a women. It is simply the qualifications for a man who wants to be an elder. It doesn’t talk about women or their qualifications at all. So which interpretation is correct? The literal that a elder must be a man? Or that these qualifications are addressed specifically to men who desire the position? Once again, we’ll look at other scripture. About three more sentences down it says that a Deacon “must be the husband of one wife”. But wait, if a Deacon has to be a man, then how is Phoebe a Deacon (rom16:1)? So the method of yanking one sentence out of the context of the paragraph yields scriptural contradiction. So we are left with interpreting in light of the introduction to the paragraph, “If a man desires”. These qualifications contained in 1tim3:2-3 are qualifications for a man ‘who desires’ the office. It doesn’t prohibit a women or even deal with the subject in any way, shape , or manner.

I think I’ve rambled on enough now..Plus I'm tired. Sorry if I sound grumpy.

[GraceSeeker]

I want to piggyback on Moe's ramblings just a little bit further.

As Moe points out, and others have noted as well, there is not actual Biblical injunction against women being pastors. Some people infer it by reading into verses things that are not there. And one of the things that isn't there is that the Bible speaks about pastors not being women at all.

Seriously, look at the terms that are used. The Bible talks about teachers (Moe just covered that very well). The Bible talks about elders and deacons. While in the United Methodist Church we give the title of elder or deacon to those who serve as our clergy, in many of those churches that are most set against women serving as pastors their elders and deacons are actually lay people elevated to administrative roles in their congregation akin to being an usher, a communion steward, or serving on the church council in a United Methodist Church. The Bible talks about presbyters and overseers. This last term comes the closest perhaps to being equivalent of what we mean by pastor, except the actual word is episcopoi (i.e. bishop).

Do a search for the word "pastor" and what will you find? To a degree it depends on the translation you use. The Message, a very non-literal translation, uses it the most. But it does so for words that actually have other meanings, and part of the Message's intent is to provide an interpretation of the Bible, thus it translates passages like 1 Chronicles 21:9 with a reference to King David's seer as referring to David's pastor, and in 2 Chronciles 26:5 Zechariah (who instructed Uzziah in the the fear of God) is called Uzziah's pastor. The King James also uses the term "pastor" to translate, all in the book of Jeremiah, what are references to shepherds.

And this later is the key. The only place in the entire Bible where multiple translations agree to use the term "pastor" is Ephesians 4:11--
King James Version (KJV)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
New International Version (NIV)

11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
The Message (MSG)
He handed out gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, and pastor-teacher to train Christ's followers in skilled servant work, working within Christ's body, the church, until we're all moving rhythmically and easily with each other, efficient and graceful in response to God's Son, fully mature adults, fully developed within and without, fully alive like Christ.


But remember all translations are trying to provide an interpretation of a foreign word into the English language. Notice how a more literal translation chooses to present the underlying word:Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers,

12unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, 13till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,

This is because the word that is being translated in this verse is poimen, which is a Greek word for shepherd, a person who tends flocks of sheep. Indeed, poimen is used a total of 18 times in the New Testament (15 of those times by Jesus himself), and this is single use by Paul is the only time it is translated as pastor. According to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the term is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors" who not only feed but also have the responsibility of guiding the "flock".

Read it in the context of the rest of Paul's thought and we see that in terms of the overall function, which is to equip us as the body of Christ for our works of service, pastors are grouped right along with other roles such as prophet. (A role which we've already had affirmed as an appropriate role for a woman by those who would challenge a woman's role for shepherding.) If a woman cannot be a shepherd of sheep, it seems to me that a woman also cannot be a shepherd of lambs -- there is nothing in the Bible by which one could infer a reason for providing different guidance to lambs than to full-grown sheep. Hence, if a woman should not shepherd the church, she shouldn't be doing that shepherd in any part of the church. But as Moe has shown above, that simply does not follow from the obvious roles that Paul (and even Jesus) give to women involved with their own ministry.

The only conclusion that I make from all of this is to affirm what Moe said above, the Bible does NOT prohibt women from exercising this function in any way, shape, or manner.

[Texas Lynn]

the Bible does NOT prohibt women from exercising this function in any way, shape, or manner.

This can probably be fairly said to be the position of the United Methodist Church as a body.