I need your help, please

[Dorothea]

To those who already have an account over at this board I'm giving you the link to, could you please explain to my Catholic friend there is no conflicting info within the EO with regards to Mary and that we don't follow the belief of Immaculate Conception. You'll see our posts in there. I need some help clearing that up. I'm Dotmeister there, and my friend is narnia59. Thanks.

http://www.americanidol.com/myidol/forums/topic/?tid=896895&page=35#post_index_9

[Knowledge3]

I will help but I will not go to another board and engage in that discussion.

What specifically can I help you with?

[Dorothea]

Thanks, Knowledge, but I was really wanting someone who is willing to post over there or who was already a member to explain the issue that my Catholic friend brought up about the EO's having conflicting answers regarding Mary and sinlessness and IC, because I can't really copy someone's words (not supposed to) to that board to explain it to her.

[Dorothea]

Actually, if anyone can answer this, I WILL pass this on. I told her I'd look into it:

She's saying these two from different sources in EO are conflicting. Can someone help me out here. The first is from Orthodoxy Today and the other is from goarch, I believe.

I would say that this:
However, even after she gave birth to the Son of God, Mary was not exempted of less serious ("venial"http://myidolmedia.americanidol.com/AI/images/smilies/wink.gif sins. St. John Chrysostom attributes to Mary the sin of vanity, in the context of the first miracle of Christ in Cana of Galilee.
conflicts with this:
"The Orthodox church maintains that Mary was a perpetual virgin, lived a sinless life
don't you???
And yes, the assumption is considered dogma. I have a question -- I know you guys have never had an ecumenical council since the schism, correct? So the only dogma you recognize is from those first councils?

[Dorothea]

If anyone could help me out on that, I'd be ETERNALLY GRATEFUL. Thanks!!!!!

[Knowledge3]

The title 'Theotokos' is clearly Marian in character. I would say that by virtue of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ her humanity was pure and immaculate. Sinlessness, on the other hand is an attribute of God. Why there may be minor differences in the orthodox understanding of Mary is a matter of contention,debate,and/or argument.

. . .

[Dorothea]

The title 'Theotokos' is clearly Marian in character. I would say that by virtue of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ her humanity was pure and immaculate. Sinlessness, on the other hand is an attribute of God. Why there may be minor differences in the orthodox understanding of Mary is a matter of contention,debate,and/or argument.

. . .
So, you're saying she was never totally sinless, right?

[buzuxi02]

Im not a member there, but the problem arises not because of conflict in Orthodox teaching but because no one understands the roman catholic dogma of the IC.

The rc dogma claims Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin thru a sungular grace by God through the mertis of Jesus Christ.

Anotherwords the crucufixion and ressurection of Christ worked backwards thru space and time and preserved her of ancestral stain upon her conception. Thus Mary was the same as Eve was before she fell.

Orthodoxy believes we inherit the fuits of ancestral sin which is death and Mary certainly died. As the service of the Dormition of the Theotokos says, "O Virgin, born from mortal loins, thine end was conformable to thy nature."
Christ alone is the immaculate conception, being able to die voluntarily and thru violence only.

Orthodoxy also rejects any dogma trying to establish "when" or "how" Mary became sinless, She too when through Theosis, it was not handed to her.

[Knowledge3]

So, you're saying she was never totally sinless, right?

Ask Fr. John Matusiak at OCA.

info@oca.org <info@oca.org>

http://www.oca.org/QAIndex.asp?SID=3

[Dorothea]

Thanks, Buz and Knowledge. It's helpful to me. :)

[buzuxi02]

Its true that St John Chrysostom found minor faults with the Theotokos. In fact St John being a product of the Antiochan school and living before the Ephesian council never promoted the sinlessness of Mary. That Mary had minor faults is a valid opinion to hold. Just as it is valid to hold that Mary was purified at the Annunciation as the Matinal Canon of the service of the Annunciation teaches. Its also worthy to note that the Theotokos recieved the Holy Spirit again at the Penetcost as tongues of fire. These are all opinions one can hold but not neccesarily the Orthodox teaching, since Orthodoxy does not define "when" or "how" she became sinless, its a mystery.

As far as the assumption of the Theotokos, our tradition believes Her body was translated three days after her death. There was a definate seperation of body and soul as portrayed in the Icon of the Dormition where the apostles are gathered around for her funeral. The Tradition of the events surrounding the Theotokos death and translation is very different from the simplistic roman dogma of the Assumption.

Whether the Theotokos actually died in the RC is vague and open to debate.

[Dorothea]

Well, buzuxi, this is why it's hard to go back and forth relaying info. LOL Here's her response to your response to her post. lol

Your post:
"The problem arises not because of conflict in Orthodox teaching but because no one understands the roman catholic dogma of the IC.

The rc dogma claims Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin thru a singular grace by God through the mertis of Jesus Christ.

Anotherwords the crucufixion and ressurection of Christ worked backwards thru space and time and preserved her of ancestral stain upon her conception. Thus Mary was the same as Eve was before she fell.

Orthodoxy believes we inherit the fuits of ancestral sin which is death and Mary certainly died. As the service of the Dormition of the Theotokos says, "O Virgin, born from mortal loins, thine end was conformable to thy nature."
Christ alone is the immaculate conception, being able to die voluntarily and thru violence only.

Orthodoxy also rejects any dogma trying to establish "when" or "how" Mary became sinless, She too went through Theosis, it was not handed to her."

Her response:

Regarding the purple Dot, didn't I already say that? We understand that all regarding Mary is through the merits of Christ on the cross, even if for some reason no one else seems to. At least if we actually read the doctrine we do. Sometimes I wonder.

Regarding the blue, there is no 'working backwards through time'. This again places God into time and constrained by it. From the view of God, it is all present. And yes, that would make Mary the same as Eve before she fell. Why would you guys call her the "new Eve" if she really wasn't?
The doctrine also does not imply that Mary's Theosis was 'handed to her'. She cooperated with the grace of God all her life, from her own free will. Her heart was pierced by the sword. She stood at the foot of the cross. However, this too was always present to God, not in some past, present, God has to wait until she actually does the cooperation in order to recognize the cooperation. He is not constrained in this way, and it always puzzles me when people reach conclusions like the death and resurrection of Christ worked 'backwards in time' (it is perpetual) and that because Mary lived a sinless life through the grace of the merits of Christ that means her own will wasn't required to cooperate with that.

[buzuxi02]

Yes, Mary had to cooperate of her own free will, as when she accepted her role on the Annunciation.

Im not here to start a polemic against the RC dogma, but simply why its incompatible with Orthodoxy.

In the Service of the Annuncation celebrated March 25 there is a dialogue between the Archangel Gabriel and the Virgin Mary refered to as the matinal Canon.

The Theotokos responds to the angel about her being overshadowed (Lk1.35):
"The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my Soul and sancitifed my Body: it has made me a temple that contains God, a Tabernacle divinely adorned, a living sactuary and the pure mother of life."

This is repeated again in our Service of the Annunciation, "Thou does appear to me to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For thou has come as an angel messenger bringing joy to all. Since, then, I am purified in soul and body by the Spirit, be it unto me according to thy word...."

There would be no need for the Holy Spirit to overshadow her and purify her if it occured at the very moment of her conception.This is the smoking gun which proves Orthodoxy rejects the roman dogma of the IC. In fact according to the roman doctrine there was never any purification required of the Virgin because she was completley excluded from original sin. Original sin never entered her hypostasis.

If its not important as to when Mary was born because the Ressurection is 'present', then God could have extended this same privelege to all people in all ages. Instead the scruptures use the phrase "when the fullness of time had come" and the council of chalcedon refered to this as "the last days".

St Paul says, "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law. to redeem those who were under the law, that we might recieve the adoption as sons.

In Orthodoxy we believe Mary descended from a long lineage of ancestors that were also holy because she is of the Root of Jesse.
St John of Damascus refers to the Theotokos parents as spotless as well, and also speaks of the holiness of her descendants before her. They were of a holy lineage not because they were spared of ancestral sin but because they were generations of pious people.

[Dorothea]

Beautifully written and explained, buzuxi. Thank you!

[Dorothea]

buzuxi, my friend's reply was this:

So Dot, this is basically saying that the Orthodox do not accept that Mary is "without blemish"?

[buzuxi02]

buzuxi, my friend's reply was this:

So Dot, this is basically saying that the Orthodox do not accept that Mary is "without blemish"?
The Theotokos reached a level of Theosis beyond any human, hence she is Panayia (all-holy).
Sanctification is a process towards divine perfection. This is a matter of difference as to how we view Ancestral Sin compared to the RC. We also take into consideration her Theosis.

We believe the Virgin Mary was a virgin before, during and after Christ's birth. Mary was spared the birth pangs of travail which was one of the inherited fruits of original sin (Gen3.16), not from being preserved of all stain of original sin but because of Christ himself thru taking flesh from her. St Irenaeous says:

"He declared that the Word will become flesh. He declared the Son of God will become the Son of Man. For the pure One opened purely that pure womb that regenerates men unto God. For He Himself made it pure."

It was Christ himself who overcame the curse of ancestral sin and spared The Virgin Mary the pains which accompany child birth. In the Service of the Nativity we chant, "For God the all-perfect is born a babe of Her, and by His birth sets the seal upon Her virginity. Through His swaddling clothes, He looses the bands of sin, and through becoming Child He heals Eve's pangs in travail."

And again later on: "The sea monster spat forth Jonah as it had recieved him, like a babe from the womb; while the Word having dwelt in the Virgin and taken flesh, came forth from Her yet kept her uncorrupt. For being himself not subject to decay, He preserved His Mother free from harm."

Another thing (which i just recently learned in another forum) deals with the liturgical calendar and the feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist and the Nativity of the Theotokos.

The conception of John the Baptist is commemorated on Sept 23 and his Nativity on June 24. One day over 9 months. While the commeoration of the conception of the Theotokos is on Dec 9 and her Nativity on Sept 8. One day less that 9 months. Christ alone is exactly 9 months (March 25, Dec 25). Anotherwords the Baptist and the Theotokos are close to perfection but miss the mark slightly , only Christ is perfect man in everyway.

[Dorothea]

Thank you so much, buzuxi. You are so smart. God bless you. :hug: