Killing a Lamb for Passover

[Caissie]

I have heard of people still today who kill a lamb for Passover. I was wondering if there were any here that do. If so, why? If not, why not?

[Steve Petersen]

I doubt anyone here does that. The Passover and all other sacrifices are only to be done at the Temple. There is none, so no sacrifice.

[Steve Petersen]

Deu 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

2 Chr 7:11 Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD, and the king's house: and all that came into Solomon's heart to make in the house of the LORD, and in his own house, he prosperously effected. 12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.

[Lulav]

There are still some Samaritans that do it in Israel, last I heard, but on their mountain, not in Jerusalem.

Our Passover lamb has already been sacrificed, no need for another one, temple or not, but that is why it was destroyed because of the non acceptance of this sacrifice by G-d himself

[Steve Petersen]

There are still some Samaritans that do it in Israel, last I heard, but on their mountain, not in Jerusalem.

Our Passover lamb has already been sacrificed, no need for another one, temple or not, but that is why it was destroyed because of the non acceptance of this sacrifice by G-d himself


It's kind of strange to hear a messianic say we don't need to keep the commandment regarding the REQUIREMENT to bring an offering if you are going to go up to the Temple (when it is built again.)

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/article.cgi?t=a1&a=1002

[Lulav]

You're the second one whose made that observation today, maybe I am not a cookie cutter Messianic? :)

Not all Messianic believers believe there will be a human built third temple.

[Steve Petersen]

You're the second one whose made that observation today, maybe I am not a cookie cutter Messianic? :)

Not all Messianic believers believe there will be a human built third temple.

What other commandments are MJs exempt from?

[Lulav]

Not understanding you Steve, are you talking about the command to built a house for the L-RD or do you just mean in general? :scratch:

[Anti Existance]

Im a vegetarian , and i am disgusted by the senseless slaughter of animals, its not justified even if God himself says so. If this were truelly so i will command God to build another Universe in which pointless slaughter of animals doesn't take place, im appalled by how nature works anyway, animals eating eachother, its asif Gods creation is consuming itself, its disgusting, i wish i was a more peacefull creation,i wish all life would be born from a flower, being beautifull,loving and having self generating energy cores so that there would be no need no more for chasing for food, or money, or animals to eat eachother.

Make it happen.

[Steve Petersen]

Im a vegetarian , and i am disgusted by the senseless slaughter of animals, its not justified even if God himself says so. If this were truelly so i will command God to build another Universe in which pointless slaughter of animals doesn't take place, im appalled by how nature works anyway, animals eating eachother, its asif Gods creation is consuming itself, its disgusting, i wish i was a more peacefull creation,i wish all life would be born from a flower, being beautifull,loving and having self generating energy cores so that there would be no need no more for chasing for food, or money, or animals to eat eachother.

Make it happen.

Wishes are for children. Time to grow up.

[Lulav]

Im a vegetarian , and i am disgusted by the senseless slaughter of animals, its not justified even if God himself says so. If this were truelly so i will command God to build another Universe in which pointless slaughter of animals doesn't take place, im appalled by how nature works anyway, animals eating eachother, its asif Gods creation is consuming itself, its disgusting, i wish i was a more peacefull creation,i wish all life would be born from a flower, being beautifull,loving and having self generating energy cores so that there would be no need no more for chasing for food, or money, or animals to eat eachother.

Make it happen. Yes, but you don't see this from the lesson G-d was trying to teach, because ouf OUR disobedience and innocent has to die to save us. So instead of condemning G-d for this practice the blame needs to go where it belongs, on us. And we should be thankful that he set this up to save us from ourselves.

Having to slaughter an innocent animal and shed it's blood to cover what we did wrong should make a person think next time about doing it and the consequence that will follow. Also if one believes that G-d made that final sacrifice of the innocent through his son, Yeshua, how much more should we think before we sin?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have heard of people still today who kill a lamb for Passover. I was wondering if there were any here that do. If so, why? If not, why not?
It is rather awkward to eat it otherwise , eh ?

[christinepro]

I have heard of people still today who kill a lamb for Passover. I was wondering if there were any here that do. If so, why? If not, why not? We had a farmer kill ours. We roasted it on a spit. It was delicious.

[johnd]

There are still some Samaritans that do it in Israel, last I heard, but on their mountain, not in Jerusalem.

Our Passover lamb has already been sacrificed, no need for another one, temple or not, but that is why it was destroyed because of the non acceptance of this sacrifice by G-d himself

Amen!!

Lulav is correct, Steve.

[johnd]

You're the second one whose made that observation today, maybe I am not a cookie cutter Messianic? :)

Not all Messianic believers believe there will be a human built third temple.

I believe the scriptures reveal the temple solomon built was accepted by God as a concession... not a commission... much like the monarchy was (1 Samuel 8).

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Moses was shown a pattern. Solomon acting on his father's zeal built an immobile edifice that was the Lord's in name only and rarely followed Levitical guidelines and specs. Even in the dedication of the temple itself the sacrifices were carried out on the streets and in places other than the temple courts because there was no room.

Sounds like a human effort rather than a divine one.

2 Samuel 7:12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

David took this to mean Solomon. But God's intention was:

Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I have debated Orthodox Jewish rabbis in the past who admitted the scriptures do not reflect a commission for Solomon to build the Temple... but that since it was done that way it was acceptable... was the best they could come up with. Jesus being the Messiah they rejected. But they did admit it was not Solomon's place to build a temple... and that God accepted it as a concession.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Interesting that those who reject Yeshua as the Messiah generally look for a Temple builder in a Messiah. One who will spread peace peace when there is no real peace (Jeremiah 6:14, Jeremiah 8:11).

Whose credentials are peculiarly Solomonic sounding....

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Stay with me here.

One of the ways God prophetically authenticated the Messiah in scripture is the consistent mention throughout the Bible. This is apparently how he prophetically reveals who the false messiah will be (whom the overly gentilized Church has referred to as the antichrist for so long most forget this is about Messiah versus counterfeit messiah). A deliberately Jewish venue.

It should not surprise folks that God deals with good and evil in-house, so to speak.

There are only 4 verses in the Bible that have 666 in them. Two of the four refer to Solomon's annual gold wage. One refers to the census of the clan of Adonikam (whose name means risen lord)... prophetic echoes of Revelation 13:3... And in the next census there is an addition to the clan so as not to dwell on it as if it were the bloodline of the false messiah.

So this is only a weighty hermeneutics argument for Solomon being a sign about the false messiah... how does one calculate the number 666 to point to him?

As any Jew knows, both Temples were destroyed on the exact same calendar date (tisha b'Av)... 6 6 6 Hebrew years apart.

Solomon is a prophetic model of the false messiah... wise, understanding, winsome, whose very name means peace, builder of the third temple... who in the midst of the 70th Week of Daniel will desecrate the temple, claim to be God, and if Zechariah 5:5-11 is any indication, he will renounce the Judaism he once championed before the world as the true faith for the Neo-Babylonianism of Nimrod his ancient version of Moses...

[visionary]

I think that very interesting.

[johnd]

Even with the best of intentions, most every generation of man has contributed to or perpetuated interfering with the plan and word of God. So this is by no means a whip up on the Jews subject. It is rather a racial declaration (racial meaning the entire human race).

If we take care to note underlying all scripture is the juxtaposition between good and evil with humanity caught in the middle (having evil tendencies and origin). I realize it's almost too obvious to speak this way... but we must remind ourselves constantly to respect the fact that our human nature is inherently wicked and not good or moral... because when we don't take this continual precaution, we fall into sin / evil from acts of commission and omission as well as prejudicing our view on life, eternity, the scriptures, and God.

For example, we have all encountered the self righteous types who because there is human suffering in the world refuses to believe in God.

This is satanic reasoning and betrays the evil root of human thinking (or so-called wisdom). It at least focuses lordship on the individual as if they could hold Almighty God for ransom for their belief in him.

This is but an extreme example. For we are all guilty of it if at any point we like Simon Peter find ourselves saying to the Supreme Majesty "Not so, Lord." For what we are doing (even in ignorance) is trying to slip our fanny up onto the throne of Eternity and the Universe and asking God to bow to our whim or our limited understanding / short sightedness.

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Why, just a few verses before Peter was commended...

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

We must all beware of our tendency to float on either side of this line of demarcation. This is why we are taught in the New Covenant writings to discipline ourselves to live in the Spirit and to abandon the flesh. Not to carry it to the extremes monasteries have over the centuries... which was (again) human interpretation of divine revelation of truth... which even the Baptists did with t-totaling the alcohol ban as did the Romanites with celibacy of the priesthood etc.

I can just reflect back on the moment Adam and Eve took the bait... when God was at a crossroads (so to speak... since known to him from the beginning was how things would turn out)... do I implement operation Salvation or not? Since even the words I speak will be muddled through human understanding and misinterpretation and tradition and... oy what a mess!

I am making a human argument here, knowing full well God is far above this, though at times the scriptures seem to reflect his exasperation over our rescue...

[johnd]

Point being, we all bring to our understanding of the scriptures baggage that stems from our limited view of life, our background, our history, our ancestry our upbringing.

Try explaining the Fatherhood of God to a child who was abused by their father, for example. I try to bear this in mind when I witness to a non-messianic Jew, though I sometimes forget.

At any rate, this is not about blind faith for we have evidences in scripture and history and even nature. But it is about blank slates. And when we make our slates blank and allow the Lord to put what he wishes there (ever using the scriptures to validate)** it is amazing how he opens the scriptures to us and what we find revealed there!

**
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try {{test}} the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible is its own best commentary. And when we set aside the human baggage (garbage) and allow God to do the talking... there are no words to describe it...

[johnd]

1 Corinthians 2
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

[Lulav]

I believe the scriptures reveal the temple solomon built was accepted by God as a concession... not a commission... much like the monarchy was (1 Samuel 8).

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Moses was shown a pattern. Solomon acting on his father's zeal built an immobile edifice that was the Lord's in name only and rarely followed Levitical guidelines and specs. Even in the dedication of the temple itself the sacrifices were carried out on the streets and in places other than the temple courts because there was no room.

Sounds like a human effort rather than a divine one.

2 Samuel 7:12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

David took this to mean Solomon. But God's intention was:

Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I have debated Orthodox Jewish rabbis in the past who admitted the scriptures do not reflect a commission for Solomon to build the Temple... but that since it was done that way it was acceptable... was the best they could come up with. Jesus being the Messiah they rejected. But they did admit it was not Solomon's place to build a temple... and that God accepted it as a concession.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Interesting that those who reject Yeshua as the Messiah generally look for a Temple builder in a Messiah. One who will spread peace peace when there is no real peace (Jeremiah 6:14, Jeremiah 8:11).

Whose credentials are peculiarly Solomonic sounding....

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Stay with me here.

I tried reading this after my Seder last night but was so exhausted and in a lot of pain in my back and neck, so I thought that was why I wasn't comprehending totally what you are saying but today I still can only follow you up to what I quoted. :help:

[Lulav]

Regarding your post 15 and 17, I do agree that it is a matter of Chometz, pride, the 'I can do something for you L-RD even if you don't ask me to!' mentality.

This is something that all believers in G-d have suffered from since the beginning.

Look at Abraham, and Sarai

It all falls back to this wisdom given David's son, but who didn't follow it,

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on you own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

This points to Torah, this points to Messiah.

Doing only what G-d tells us to do will please him, nothing and I mean Nothing else. This is where we demonstrate our true faith and trust in him, if we reguard not ourselves, but Him alone.