Messianic aliyah

[HaReb]

In a very recent landmark ruling, the Supreme Court of Israel ratified a settlement between twelve Messianic Jewish believers and the State of Israel, which states that being a Messianic Jew does not prevent one from receiving citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return or the Law of Citizenship, if one is a descendent of Jews on one's father's side (and thus not Jewish according to halacha).This Supreme Court decision brought an end to a legal battle that has carried on for two and a half years. The applicants were represented by Yuval Grayevsky and Calev Myers from the offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co., and their legal costs were subsidized by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice.
All twelve of the applicants were denied citizenship solely based on grounds that they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. Most of them received letters stating that they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity". One of the applicants was told by a clerk at the Ministry of Interior that because she "committed missionary activity", she is "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people". These allegations are not only untrue, but they also do not constitute legal grounds to deny one's right to immigrate to Israel.This important victory paves the way for persons who have Jewish ancestry on their father's side to immigrate to Israel freely, whether or not they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world.

[ChavaK]

In a very recent landmark ruling, the Supreme Court of Israel ratified a settlement between twelve Messianic Jewish believers and the State of Israel, which states that being a Messianic Jew does not prevent one from receiving citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return or the Law of Citizenship, if one is a descendent of Jews on one's father's side (and thus not Jewish according to halacha).This Supreme Court decision brought an end to a legal battle that has carried on for two and a half years. The applicants were represented by Yuval Grayevsky and Calev Myers from the offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co., and their legal costs were subsidized by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice.
All twelve of the applicants were denied citizenship solely based on grounds that they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. Most of them received letters stating that they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity". One of the applicants was told by a clerk at the Ministry of Interior that because she "committed missionary activity", she is "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people". These allegations are not only untrue, but they also do not constitute legal grounds to deny one's right to immigrate to Israel.This important victory paves the way for persons who have Jewish ancestry on their father's side to immigrate to Israel freely, whether or not they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world.

I don't see why the court would have denied them aliyah in the
first place. They aren't Jews, so they can't be Messianic Jews
and MJ are the ones who are not allowed to make aliyah.
Christians who have at least one Jewish grandparent have
always been able to make aliyah (look at all the non-Jewish
Russians there, for example) so I don't see this as any big
deal....
As for missionary activity in Israel, it is not banned so again
I don't see this as setting any new precident...

[HaReb]

I don't see why the court would have denied them aliyah in the first place.


They obviously did, though, or it would not have taken two years and ended up at the Supreme Court if, as you say, it is not a problem :scratch:

[Torah613]

Interesting news, but I must say I'm a bit disheartened by it. Would this pave the way for stronger Reform and Recon blocks in Isreal seeing as they use patrilinial descent? Could this be the first step towards loosing the Neshama of Isreal?

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Interesting news, but I must say I'm a bit disheartened by it. Would this pave the way for stronger Reform and Recon blocks in Isreal seeing as they use patrilinial descent? Could this be the first step towards loosing the Neshama of Isreal?

Yochanan It really doesn't change anything except perhaps for the individuals involved. A reform Jew with a jewish father can already make aliyah.

As far as the neshama, you might find this (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/04/emergency-messa.html)an interesting read.

[Torah613]

wow an interesting read indeed! thanks for the link. I agree with what's said 100%.

Yochanan

[HaReb]

Please note that I posted the item with no personal input or comment from me - that is just how it was issued by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice.

[Wags]

It's a long shot, but I pray that is a crack in the door to allowing aliyah for Messianic Jews.

The battle to make aliyah and to be able to remain is an on-going one. At any time there are probably a dozen or more Messianic cases waiting to be heard by the Israeli Supreme Court.

[Torah613]

I was not making a comment on the case either, simply the ruling about patrilinial descent. Makes me worry all the more. Of course the last time I was at a reform shul they had the gall to have a speaker there talking about how they wanted to gain political control in Isreal.

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Please note that I posted the item with no personal input or comment from me - that is just how it was issued by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice.

Oh I don't think anyone was criticizing you for it, HaReb. Just saying that it doesn't change anything. Although, this Christian law group makes it sound like the floodgates have been opened for Messianics to pour in. Regardless, its just another sad reminder that the Israeli gov't is not based on halacha at all.

[Torah613]

Oh I don't think anyone was criticizing you for it, HaReb. Just saying that it doesn't change anything. Although, this Christian law group makes it sound like the floodgates have been opened for Messianics to pour in. Regardless, its just another sad reminder that the Israeli gov't is not based on halacha at all.
indeed

[ChazakEmunah]

In a very recent landmark ruling, the Supreme Court of Israel ratified a settlement between twelve Messianic Jewish believers and the State of Israel, which states that being a Messianic Jew does not prevent one from receiving citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return or the Law of Citizenship, if one is a descendent of Jews on one's father's side (and thus not Jewish according to halacha).This Supreme Court decision brought an end to a legal battle that has carried on for two and a half years. The applicants were represented by Yuval Grayevsky and Calev Myers from the offices of Yehuda Raveh & Co., and their legal costs were subsidized by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice.
All twelve of the applicants were denied citizenship solely based on grounds that they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. Most of them received letters stating that they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity". One of the applicants was told by a clerk at the Ministry of Interior that because she "committed missionary activity", she is "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people". These allegations are not only untrue, but they also do not constitute legal grounds to deny one's right to immigrate to Israel.This important victory paves the way for persons who have Jewish ancestry on their father's side to immigrate to Israel freely, whether or not they belong to the Messianic Jewish community. This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world.
As others have already stated, this is just one more reminder that we must all do t'shuva. It's high-time we were rid of this corrupt anti-emuna government.

[Talmidah]

As others have already stated, this is just one more reminder that we must all do t'shuva. It's high-time we were rid of this corrupt anti-emuna government. :thumbsup:

[ChazakEmunah]

Regardless, its just another sad reminder that the Israeli gov't is not based on halacha at all.
May the Mashiakh come soon and re-institute a Torah-true government.

[ChavaK]

May the Mashiakh come soon and re-institute a Torah-true government.

:thumbsup:

[Talmidah]

May the Mashiakh come soon and re-institute a Torah-true government.

:amen:

[ChavaK]

The Israeli Supreme court is so messed up you never no what
they are going to do...on my recent trip to Israel I was dis-heartened
to hear all the religious Jews upset at how the court rules.
They are also upset that for the first time they feel the government
and the politicians are only looking out for themselves, rather than
do what is good for the state...

[Lulav]

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. :amen:

[ChavaK]

They obviously did, though, or it would not have taken two years and ended up at the Supreme Court if, as you say, it is not a problem :scratch:

It should not have been a problem, unless there was questions
about if they had legitimate Jewish ancestors...but again
who knows what or why the Israeli courts do what they do...

[HaReb]

Oh I don't think anyone was criticizing you for it, HaReb.


I didn't feel that anyone was - I just felt it might be important to make the point when I realised that this might be a contentious issue for some! Others coming later might have thought differently.

[Talmidah]

I didn't feel that anyone was - I just felt it might be important to make the point when I realised that this might be a contentious issue for some! Others coming later might have thought differently.

Ah! Understood! :)

[ChazakEmunah]

The Israeli Supreme court is so messed up you never no what
they are going to do...on my recent trip to Israel I was dis-heartened
to hear all the religious Jews upset at how the court rules.
They are also upset that for the first time they feel the government
and the politicians are only looking out for themselves, rather than
do what is good for the state...
Yep. I was just reading a case this week where a frustrated lawyer was explaining how Arabs are given a free pass and religious Jews are prosecuted relentlessly. The whole system is anti-emuna therefore all of it must go.

[visionary]

Shalom shalom from Israel!
My name is “Annelore”, founder and president of OR TZION, Inc.

I want to share with you a matter very special to G-d’s heart, namely MESSIANIC ALIYAH, which is the Return to Israel by Jews believing in Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Previous Israeli governments did not grant the “Right of Return”Y to Messianic Jews as to all other Jews, due to 1,800 years of Gentile Christianity forcing Jews to convert and foreswear all allegiance to their own people and heritage.

This resulted in Messianic Jews being regarded only as “Christians” and no longer as Jews, By BOTH Christianity and Jews.

However, the time has come for ALL Jews irrespective of their religious observance to have the “Right of Return”, as this is in accordance with Ezekiel 39:28, "Then they shall know that I am the L-RD their G-d because I sent them into exile among the nations, and then gathered them into their own land. I will leave NONE OF THEM remaining among the nations anymore..."

And with Micah 2:12, “I will surely gather ALL of Jacob (i.e. both the unsaved AND the redeemed), I will gather the Remnant of Israel and I will set them TOGETHER like sheep in a fold, like a flock in its OWN pasture…”


Here (http://www.ortzion.org/MessianicAliyah1.html)

[Torah613]

As others have already stated, this is just one more reminder that we must all do t'shuva. It's high-time we were rid of this corrupt anti-emuna government.
Omayn!

[Torah613]

May the Mashiakh come soon and re-institute a Torah-true government.
Omayn!!!

[ElsanRandiMom]

so... dumb question probably... would it be different for a MJ who had a Jewish mom?

[Torah613]

a good question. I could see it both ways, as the law of return expressly states that they must have either one 1. undergone conversion according to Halacha, or 2. been born of a Jewish mother. Also states that they can't be professing to practicing another religion. But there are plenty of loopholes in the law, so again I say, Good question!

Yochanan

[Wags]

so... dumb question probably... would it be different for a MJ who had a Jewish mom?

Yup - no citizenship!

[ElsanRandiMom]

a good question. I could see it both ways, as the law of return expressly states that they must have either one 1. undergone conversion according to Halacha, or 2. been born of a Jewish mother. Also states that they can't be professing to practicing another religion. But there are plenty of loopholes in the law, so again I say, Good question!

Yochanan
but if the father is allowed, when this does not show a necessarily that they are Jews under the law I'd think it'd be a "gimme" on the mom thing... but that's just my way of thinking.

[Torah613]

Yup - no citizenship!
not under law of return maybe, but Isreal does not limit citizinship to Jews and such people can become naturalized over time.

Yochanan

[ElsanRandiMom]

but it's easy to tell who mothered a child, but not so much with fathered... I'm confused.

[Torah613]

Isreali law is a confusing subject. Less than 100 years old, and equally as complex as the US system. But then again, we as a people do enjoy our rather lively discussions.

Yochanan

[ElsanRandiMom]

Isreali law is a confusing subject. Less than 100 years old, and equally as complex as the US system. But then again, we as a people do enjoy our rather lively discussions.

Yochanan
I thought that Judaism was passed down through the mom. (again, because you can always tell who mothered a child)

[Torah613]

that's not the reason. Go back and look for threads titled "who is a jew" or somesuch in the debate section to see opinions on this subject.

Yochanan

[ElsanRandiMom]

that's not the reason. Go back and look for threads titled "who is a jew" or somesuch in the debate section to see opinions on this subject.

Yochanan
from that thread:
Judaism, which is a religious tradition that goes back 3300 years, has clear guidelines as to membership: Either you are born to a Jewish mother or you convert to Judaism using the from and procedures as presented in the Law of the Nation of Israel, the Torah.

[ChavaK]

A poster on another forum asked a very good question- what
is the source for this story? He lives in Israel and says he has
heard nothing about this, nor has there been anything
written in the newspapers about it.

I did a google search, and all it brings up is Messianic
websites; no links to Israel or Israeli news sources.

So, is this information indeed correct?
Where did you see the original article?

:wave:

[johnd]

This is about the age old question "what is a Jew?"

As I understand it, the "official" reckoning of Jewish heritage through the mother is recent... in response to an awful attempt at genocide (about 75 years ago).

But the point is, does being half Jewish by the mother make one whole but not by the father? Or in cases of where there was a choice, better not to marry a Gentile at all (mixed marriage)... but what about King David, or the patriarchs for that matter?

An interesting thought on perspective. Does another's having less percentage of what you have make them less of what you are... except under extenuating circumstances? Or does a drop of Jewish blood genetically sweeten the bitter stew? Given the monarchial lineage and the patriarchial lineage even the origin of Abram and Sarai... I would say the latter is true, and the debate would have been over had the thoroughbreds not made such fuss over their parents both being Jewish.

[HaReb]

So, is this information indeed correct?
Where did you see the original article?


The info was there in post #7: The Jerusalem Institute of Justice who can be contacted via http://www.jij.org.il/index.php

See the information at http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/358897.aspx

[ChavaK]

The info was there in post #7: The Jerusalem Institute of Justice who can be contacted via http://www.jij.org.il/index.php

See the information at http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/358897.aspx

But both of these are Messianic sites.....do you
have any links to non-Messianic or Israeli
general news sites?

I also did not see this particular issue discussed on Calev Myers site....can you
please point it out to me?
Todah!

[zaksmummy]

One thing that struck me as I have read this thread, is that those of you who are Jewish with the Star of David symbol have criticized and denounced a decision and said that it isnt right for the Israeli court to make a judgement.

Now I can see that you have a point from a religious point of view ( I've read many debates on the rights/wrongs of being Messianic Jews, so dont want to revisit the point), but you all have USA flags, so you are criticizing a court judgement and want it changed but you dont live there, so you cant change the politics of a country if you are not a citizen.

But you all have the option to be a citizen and live in Israel.

This isnt really a question, just an observation.

[Talmidah]

And some of us are in the process of doing so, zaksmummy. Even for those who aren't, the relationship between Israel and Jews is a unique one and all Jews will of course have opinions, thoughts, and emotions relating to anything that happens in Israel.

However, all of that said, I don't see why anyone can't look upon the politics of another nation and have express their opinion. I'm certainly not a Mexican citizen, but I have all kinds of opinions in regard to the politics of Mexico.

[HaReb]

But both of these are Messianic sites.....do you
have any links to non-Messianic or Israeli
general news sites?

Should that make a difference? A decision of the Supreme Court is a decision of the Supreme Court. I haven't, but you could look at the Court web site and see if it's there if you are particularly bothered.

[ChazakEmunah]

One thing that struck me as I have read this thread, is that those of you who are Jewish with the Star of David symbol have criticized and denounced a decision and said that it isnt right for the Israeli court to make a judgement.

Now I can see that you have a point from a religious point of view ( I've read many debates on the rights/wrongs of being Messianic Jews, so dont want to revisit the point), but you all have USA flags, so you are criticizing a court judgement and want it changed but you dont live there, so you cant change the politics of a country if you are not a citizen.

But you all have the option to be a citizen and live in Israel.

This isnt really a question, just an observation.
We're in the process of changing that. My wife is now more open to move. I'm just waiting for her go-ahead.

[Lulav]

I thought that Judaism was passed down through the mom. (again, because you can always tell who mothered a child) Not necessarily today though, there has been such a thing as Surrogacy and now in vitro which could blur the lines.

[ChavaK]

Yep. I was just reading a case this week where a frustrated lawyer was explaining how Arabs are given a free pass and religious Jews are prosecuted relentlessly. The whole system is anti-emuna therefore all of it must go.


Oh, for sure. My religious friends there tell me they get tired
of Arabs being given preferential treatment over Jews, so
Israel can show how fair and anti-discriminatory it is.....

[Lulav]

We're in the process of changing that. My wife is now more open to move. I'm just waiting for her go-ahead. You don't believe in head of the household making decisions like that? :)

[zaksmummy]

And some of us are in the process of doing so, zaksmummy. Even for those who aren't, the relationship between Israel and Jews is a unique one and all Jews will of course have opinions, thoughts, and emotions relating to anything that happens in Israel.

However, all of that said, I don't see why anyone can't look upon the politics of another nation and have express their opinion. I'm certainly not a Mexican citizen, but I have all kinds of opinions in regard to the politics of Mexico.
Of course all Jews have a vested interest in what happen in Israel, and I think it is brill, I just felt that it was a bit off really - you cannot expect a country to change if you dont live there - do you understand what I mean? I dont want to sound insulting or rude, I'm not trying to be.

Its like I find American politics completely odd, some of the things you do baffle me, and yes I have a lot of opinions on them, but I have no way to change them as I cannot vote and dont want to move to America or become an American citizen.

[zaksmummy]

Oh and I'm too opinionated they probably wouldnt let me in!!!

[ChavaK]

One thing that struck me as I have read this thread, is that those of you who are Jewish with the Star of David symbol have criticized and denounced a decision and said that it isnt right for the Israeli court to make a judgement.

No, no no! You misunderstand what I am saying.
I do not have a problem with the decision, because the courts
there (even if I do not support them) should have been allowing
these people to make aliyah. They fall under the guidelines
of who may under the Law of Return. They are not Jews, but
they have the Jewish ancestry required for them to be allowed
to make aliyah, so there should never have been a reason not
to allow them in.

I am saying, however, that the State does not recognize them
as being Jews and there fore they are being allowed to make
aliyah under the Law of Return. They will not however have
ID cards listing them as Jews.

All the Israelis I know (secular and religious) feel that the
courts and the government have become so corrupt that
they do what is in the governemnts interest rather than
what is good for the country and the people.
Religous Jews have trouble with the courts because they
are secular and make judgements that go against Torah.

Surely you must see how frustrating it is for those of us
who are religious to see a country that calls itself
a "Jewish state" base it's government and judiciary
decisions on non-Torah laws. :(


But you all have the option to be a citizen and live in Israel.
Hopefully after I am able to retire I will live there,
if HaShem should find me worthy of doing so.
I am actually inquiring if I can become a citizen now,
rather than at such a time I can make aliyah.....until then
I will hold dual citizenship if Israel allows this....

[ChavaK]

You don't believe in head of the household making decisions like that? :)
In a Jewish household, the wife is the head of the
house hold :)

[ChavaK]

Of course all Jews have a vested interest in what happen in Israel, and I think it is brill, I just felt that it was a bit off really - you cannot expect a country to change if you dont live there - do you understand what I mean? I dont want to sound insulting or rude, I'm not trying to be.

Its like I find American politics completely odd, some of the things you do baffle me, and yes I have a lot of opinions on them, but I have no way to change them as I cannot vote and dont want to move to America or become an American citizen.

The situation is a bit different with Jews and Israel.
First there is a direct spiritual connection....neither Jews
nor the land can survive without each other. When Jews
are absent, the Land withers.....it blooms with Jews there.
The Jewish soul (collectively) withers when it is not in
the land....

There is an emotional connection too, even for those who
are not religious.

And lastly, there is a physical connection. Israel is the land
where Jews can flee as a place of refuge should we ever
need it. It may sound melodramatic, but with the world
history of anti-semitism, of murdering Jews, and the re-emergence
of anti-semitism across the world, we Jews may need to flee
there some day (chas v'shalom).

So, yes, we are very concerned about what happens, and have
a vested interest in what happens in Israel even if we cannot
be there at this time.

However......I believe people with dual citizenship can vote in
Israeli elections, so if I receive citizenship before making
aliyah, you can bet I will time my vacations there around
important elections ;)

[Lulav]

The situation is a bit different with Jews and Israel.
First there is a direct spiritual connection....neither Jews
nor the land can survive without each other. When Jews
are absent, the Land withers.....it blooms with Jews there.
The Jewish soul (collectively) withers when it is not in
the land....

There is an emotional connection too, even for those who
are not religious.

And lastly, there is a physical connection. Israel is the land
where Jews can flee as a place of refuge should we ever
need it. It may sound melodramatic, but with the world
history of anti-semitism, of murdering Jews, and the re-emergence
of anti-semitism across the world, we Jews may need to flee
there some day (chas v'shalom).

So, yes, we are very concerned about what happens, and have
a vested interest in what happens in Israel even if we cannot
be there at this time.

However......I believe people with dual citizenship can vote in
Israeli elections, so if I receive citizenship before making
aliyah, you can bet I will time my vacations there around
important elections ;) And all Jews will again be persecuted one day soon I believe and they all need a place to go, and that includes Messianic Jews.

[Lulav]

In a Jewish household, the wife is the head of the
house hold :)
I know but is that the way HaShem says it should be?;)

[ChavaK]

And all Jews will again be persecuted one day soon I believe

G-d forbid..........

[visionary]

I thought woman maybe the head of the house, but the man is the head of the household. This small difference can make a big difference. It is the difference between the "houseband" that the husband is to do... and the "home"maker that the wife is to do.

[ChavaK]

I thought woman maybe the head of the house, but the man is the head of the household.


Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha :D *wiping tears of laughter from eyes*

The women are the power brokers in the house hold.....
and the house. ;)

[visionary]

We know that ... just don't tell the men...OK

[ChavaK]

We know that ... just don't tell the men...OK

Lips are sealed....it is our little secret, LOL.

[visionary]

Lips are sealed....it is our little secret, LOL.:D ;) Yep.. just our little secret.

[HaReb]

Well lads, should we tell these women that it was, of course, the decision of a man that gave them this authority on a temporary basis? They seem to have forgotten that!

[visionary]

Well lads, should we tell these women that it was, of course, the decision of a man that gave them this authority on a temporary basis? They seem to have forgotten that!He who rules the home, rules the world...ohhh yeah... where have all the men gone in so many homes today... who is left to rule the home? This society really needs to have the men back in their place.

[ChazakEmunah]

You don't believe in head of the household making decisions like that? :)
Nope. I have learned that if I want to maintain Shalom Bayit I can't coerce or force my wife to do anything she doesn't want to do. With some gentle assistance, she comes to it on her own. The quickest way to destroy Shalom Bayit is to force your spouse to do something.

[ChazakEmunah]

In a Jewish household, the wife is the head of the
house hold :)
That would be 100% correct! :)

[ChazakEmunah]

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha :D *wiping tears of laughter from eyes*

The women are the power brokers in the house hold.....
and the house. ;)

We know that ... just don't tell the men...OK

Lips are sealed....it is our little secret, LOL.
Ah, but the men who learn this, and learn how to properly deal with it will have true Shalom Bayit. Breslev teaches that husbands are to give everything, without expecting anything in return.

[ChazakEmunah]

Well lads, should we tell these women that it was, of course, the decision of a man that gave them this authority on a temporary basis? They seem to have forgotten that!
Hmm.... Don't think I quite agree with you there HaReb. Women are the head of the household. They run the house, we study Torah. That's how HaShem set it up.

[ChazakEmunah]

He who rules the home, rules the world...ohhh yeah... where have all the men gone in so many homes today... who is left to rule the home? This society really needs to have the men back in their place.
The whole problem is with this society. Most men and women don't even know what their role is supposed to be.

[Talmidah]

Nope. I have learned that if I want to maintain Shalom Bayit I can't coerce or force my wife to do anything she doesn't want to do. With some gentle assistance, she comes to it on her own. The quickest way to destroy Shalom Bayit is to force your spouse to do something.

Ah, but the men who learn this, and learn how to properly deal with it will have true Shalom Bayit. Breslev teaches that husbands are to give everything, without expecting anything in return.

Hmm.... Don't think I quite agree with you there HaReb. Women are the head of the household. They run the house, we study Torah. That's how HaShem set it up.

The whole problem is with this society. Most men and women don't even know what their role is supposed to be.


I agree completely! :thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

Ah, but the men who learn this, and learn how to properly deal with it will have true Shalom Bayit. Breslev teaches that husbands are to give everything, without expecting anything in return.

Uh oh.....now you know our secret....guess it is
no longer a secret ;)

[ChavaK]

Hmm.... Don't think I quite agree with you there HaReb. Women are the head of the household.

We rule the household, thank you very much ;)

[Torah613]

One thing that struck me as I have read this thread, is that those of you who are Jewish with the Star of David symbol have criticized and denounced a decision and said that it isnt right for the Israeli court to make a judgement.

Now I can see that you have a point from a religious point of view ( I've read many debates on the rights/wrongs of being Messianic Jews, so dont want to revisit the point), but you all have USA flags, so you are criticizing a court judgement and want it changed but you dont live there, so you cant change the politics of a country if you are not a citizen.

But you all have the option to be a citizen and live in Israel.

This isnt really a question, just an observation.
getting over there is easier said than done. I cannot begin to count the times I've davened to be able to make Alliyah. And Talmidah has been at it longer!

Yochanan

[Torah613]

No, no no! You misunderstand what I am saying.
I do not have a problem with the decision, because the courts
there (even if I do not support them) should have been allowing
these people to make aliyah. They fall under the guidelines
of who may under the Law of Return. They are not Jews, but
they have the Jewish ancestry required for them to be allowed
to make aliyah, so there should never have been a reason not
to allow them in.

I am saying, however, that the State does not recognize them
as being Jews and there fore they are being allowed to make
aliyah under the Law of Return. They will not however have
ID cards listing them as Jews.

All the Israelis I know (secular and religious) feel that the
courts and the government have become so corrupt that
they do what is in the governemnts interest rather than
what is good for the country and the people.
Religous Jews have trouble with the courts because they
are secular and make judgements that go against Torah.

Surely you must see how frustrating it is for those of us
who are religious to see a country that calls itself
a "Jewish state" base it's government and judiciary
decisions on non-Torah laws. :(

Hopefully after I am able to retire I will live there,
if HaShem should find me worthy of doing so.
I am actually inquiring if I can become a citizen now,
rather than at such a time I can make aliyah.....until then
I will hold dual citizenship if Israel allows this....
very wisely said Chava! No they are not Jews, but they do have the ancestry, and therefore should be allowed to move to Isreal under the Law of Return. The point of that law is so that Isreal can be a safe haven for people of Jewish ancestry, or those who convert to the Jewish faith, from discrimination and violent acts.

The Shoah proved that just because someone no longer practices the Jewish faith (or isn't even technically Halachachly Jewish) they can still be victims.

Yochanan

[ChazakEmunah]

Uh oh.....now you know our secret....guess it is
no longer a secret ;)
Mwhahaha.... Not only that, but I'm learning how to understand my wife too.... Soon I will know all your secrets.........

[Torah613]

In a Jewish household, the wife is the head of the
house hold :)
I don't think any Rabbi, or the most ardent zionist, would recomend a family making alliyah unless both husband and wife agreed. Its a recipee for trouble, and a double batch at that!

Yochanan

[ChazakEmunah]

I don't think any Rabbi, or the most ardent zionist, would recomend a family making alliyah unless both husband and wife agreed. Its a recipee for trouble, and a double batch at that!

Yochanan
Without a doubt!

[Torah613]

G-d forbid..........
Omayn!

[Torah613]

Nope. I have learned that if I want to maintain Shalom Bayit I can't coerce or force my wife to do anything she doesn't want to do. With some gentle assistance, she comes to it on her own. The quickest way to destroy Shalom Bayit is to force your spouse to do something.
Also the quickest way to starvation!

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Also the quickest way to starvation!

Yochanan ^_^

[ChazakEmunah]

Also the quickest way to starvation!

Yochanan
LOL!!

[Wags]

We have talked of making aliyah if the barriers to our doing so were ever removed. I've lived and traveled outside the US so the culture shock would be less for me I think then for hubby although he is much more fluent in Hebrew than I am. The kids are young enough to adapt pretty quickly.

[Torah613]

Even though the major barrier I face is financial, I still can empathize. I'm sure it will be a culture shock, but then again I live in KS so moving anywhere else in the country also would be.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

I don't think any Rabbi, or the most ardent zionist, would recomend a family making alliyah unless both husband and wife agreed. Its a recipee for trouble, and a double batch at that!

Yochanan

Oh, of course not! Neither one alone should be in charge
of making that decision-it needs to be a mutual agreement.

[HaReb]

Hmm.... Don't think I quite agree with you there HaReb. Women are the head of the household. They run the house, we study Torah. That's how HaShem set it up.



Er, that's what I said! I made the point that it was a man who gave women this (temporary) authority you speak of - ie G_d!

[ChavaK]

We have talked of making aliyah if the barriers to our doing so were ever removed. I've lived and traveled outside the US so the culture shock would be less for me I think then for hubby although he is much more fluent in Hebrew than I am. The kids are young enough to adapt pretty quickly.

It's definitely a much different culture....language isn't a problem
as most people speak English. Many people who make aliyah
never really learn anything more than rudimentary Hebrew, and
tend to live in Anglo areas and patronize Anglo buisnesses
for convenience.

What is a shock though are prices, living standards, and salaries.
Living standard and wages are much lower, and prices high.
As a for instance, I have a friend who is an RN who made aliyah
two years ago. After taking a year and a half to get certified there-
the biggest barrier was the language, or course- she has been
working for the last 6 months and makes a whopping $5.00 an
hour as base pay. With over time and shift differential, she
averages $8.00 and hour....for an RN!

[ChavaK]

Even though the major barrier I face is financial
Yochanan

That seems to be the biggest barrier for most people, including me.
Which is why I am going to wait until I retire....there is no way I
can go there and make a decent living at this time. It will be much
easier, simpler, and less distracting to not have to worry about
making a living there...

[ChazakEmunah]

Er, that's what I said! I made the point that it was a man who gave women this (temporary) authority you speak of - ie G_d!
Whoops! My mistake.... Sorry 'bout that. :blush:

[ChazakEmunah]

It's definitely a much different culture....language isn't a problem
as most people speak English. Many people who make aliyah
never really learn anything more than rudimentary Hebrew, and
tend to live in Anglo areas and patronize Anglo buisnesses
for convenience.

What is a shock though are prices, living standards, and salaries.
Living standard and wages are much lower, and prices high.
As a for instance, I have a friend who is an RN who made aliyah
two years ago. After taking a year and a half to get certified there-
the biggest barrier was the language, or course- she has been
working for the last 6 months and makes a whopping $5.00 an
hour as base pay. With over time and shift differential, she
averages $8.00 and hour....for an RN!
Yeah, the health industry doesn't pay really well. I have heard that IT does pretty decent though...

[Wags]

It's definitely a much different culture....language isn't a problem
as most people speak English. Many people who make aliyah
never really learn anything more than rudimentary Hebrew, and
tend to live in Anglo areas and patronize Anglo buisnesses
for convenience.

What is a shock though are prices, living standards, and salaries.
Living standard and wages are much lower, and prices high.
As a for instance, I have a friend who is an RN who made aliyah
two years ago. After taking a year and a half to get certified there-
the biggest barrier was the language, or course- she has been
working for the last 6 months and makes a whopping $5.00 an
hour as base pay. With over time and shift differential, she
averages $8.00 and hour....for an RN!

Oh I know about the prices and the standard of living. You know the expression, "If you want to make a small fortune in Israel - start with a large one" I think it's an apt description.

I'm not the type to stick with other Anglo's - since I prefer rural areas. The biggest adjustment for hubby would be the bureaucracy of trying to get anything accomplished. He is used to things happening in a much quicker time frame.

[ChavaK]

Yeah, the health industry doesn't pay really well. I have heard that IT does pretty decent though...


I think wages for most jobs are pretty low, but if you get into
the tech market, IT, etc it probably pays well.

I have another friend who made aliyah a few years back.
He was working with casinos in Las Vegas, something to
do with their computers and accounting. Rather than give
up that well paying job, he commutes from Israel to Las
Vegas and back every 10 days....he is gone from his
family a fair amount of time, but that is the way he is
able to support them.

[ChavaK]

Oh I know about the prices and the standard of living.
I was shocked about high prices were on this last trip-food was
outrageous, as well as just about every thing else. Much higher
than I have ever seen before, and of course with the dollar down,
it really limited my spending there. I usually like to do tons of
shopping there, but not this time :(

The biggest adjustment for hubby would be the bureaucracy of trying to get anything accomplished. He is used to things happening in a much quicker time frame.

Your husband is in for a BIG shock, should he ever get there.
Nothing gets done quickly, nothing gets done in a competent
manner, and the bureacracy and layers and layers of it are
incredible...

[Wags]

Employment for me would not be a problem since mine is all on-line. Hubby's employment would be the sticking point, but he keeps in contact with friends in the tech industry just in case Messianics are ever permitted to make aliyah.

[ChavaK]

Employment for me would not be a problem since mine is all on-line. Hubby's employment would be the sticking point, but he keeps in contact with friends in the tech industry just in case Messianics are ever permitted to make aliyah.

If either of you are halachaly Jewish (by Israeli standards) you
are going to have a problem. If not, you can make aliyah under
the Law of Return, if you have the required ancestry, as the
group of people that were mentioned in the OP (remember that,
LOL?) did.
Otherwise, you can check and what the immigration rules are
for gentiles...

[ChavaK]

Okay, I finally found a non-Messianic site (trust but verify, LOL) that describes the decision.
As we noted before, it really doesn't change anything because the
group is not recognized as being Jewish by the state, and are being
admitted as gentiles under the Law of Return since they have a
Jewish father.
The court is simply enforcing the Law of Return, rather than
amending it or throwing it out...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870469395&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Talmidah]

Okay, I finally found a non-Messianic site (trust but verify, LOL) that describes the decision.
As we noted before, it really doesn't change anything because the
group is not recognized as being Jewish by the state, and are being
admitted as gentiles under the Law of Return since they have a
Jewish father.
The court is simply enforcing the Law of Return, rather than
amending it or throwing it out...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870469395&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Thanks for the article, Chava. While you're right that it doesn't change anything regarding the Law of Return, I found it interesting that the plaintiff's entire case contingent on the fact that they are not Jews. This is especially interesting in light of the fact that many Messianic gentiles claim to be Jews because of their faith/beliefs.



The ruling determined that the petitioners were entitled to automatic new immigrant status and citizenship precisely because they were not Jews as defined by the Law of Return, but rather because they were the offspring of Jewish fathers.

[ChavaK]

I found it interesting that the plaintiff's entire case contingent on the fact that they are not Jews.
Which also makes the title of the article inaccurate: "Messianic
Jews...." because they are being admitted as Gentiles.
It's kind of crazy; non-Jews fighting to be admitted to Israel :)

This is especially interesting in light of the fact that many Messianic gentiles claim to be Jews because of their faith/beliefs.

Yes, but what they claim and what Israel accepts as law are two
different things, of course.:)

[Lulav]

Nope. I have learned that if I want to maintain Shalom Bayit I can't coerce or force my wife to do anything she doesn't want to do. With some gentle assistance, she comes to it on her own. The quickest way to destroy Shalom Bayit is to force your spouse to do something. I never said anything about force, did I? ;)

[Talmidah]

Which also makes the title of the article inaccurate: "Messianic
Jews...." because they are being admitted as Gentiles.
It's kind of crazy; non-Jews fighting to be admitted to Israel :) I agree.


Yes, but what they claim and what Israel accepts as law are two
different things, of course.:)
Oh definitely. Its just ironic that with so many claiming to be Jews, you have plaintiffs going to court to seek a ruling that hinges on them not being Jews.

[ChavaK]

Oh definitely. Its just ironic that with so many claiming to be Jews, you have plaintiffs going to court to seek a ruling that hinges on them not being Jews.

Yeah, that is pretty strange, isn't it?

[Wags]

If either of you are halachaly Jewish (by Israeli standards) you are going to have a problem. .

Yes we know all about the "problems" - but I have complete faith that one day Israel will wake up and accept ALL Jews back into the land.

[Lulav]

Yes we know all about the "problems" - but I have complete faith that one day Israel will wake up and accept ALL Jews back into the land.:amen: From your mouth to G-ds ears!

[HaReb]

What's the problem? Scripture speaks of 10 goyim holding onto the tallit of a single Jew and asking to be taken to the Temple!

[Torah613]

That seems to be the biggest barrier for most people, including me.
Which is why I am going to wait until I retire....there is no way I
can go there and make a decent living at this time. It will be much
easier, simpler, and less distracting to not have to worry about
making a living there...
I'm sure making a living will work itself out. If not it would be an honor to sleep under the stars of Israel. And of course I would be too overjoyed to eat.

But, I don't think the various credit cards would simply say "sure, make alliyah. Pay us whenever."

Yochanan

[Torah613]

If either of you are halachaly Jewish (by Israeli standards) you
are going to have a problem. If not, you can make aliyah under
the Law of Return, if you have the required ancestry, as the
group of people that were mentioned in the OP (remember that,
LOL?) did.
Otherwise, you can check and what the immigration rules are
for gentiles...
I would think you could immigrate, and be naturalized eventually. Similar to how its done in the US. Of course not immediately having citizinship rights can be a hardship.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

I would think you could immigrate, and be naturalized eventually. Similar to how its done in the US. Of course not immediately having citizinship rights can be a hardship.

Yochanan

I am not sure how the laws of citizenship work in Israel if you
are not a Jew.

The rep from the Jewish Agency is going to be in town in a few
weeks; I am going ask her if it is possible to become an Israeli
citizen (dual citizenship with the US) without having a target
date for aliyah. I don't think it is, but there is nothing I would
love more than to become an Israeli citizen in addition to a
US one. :)

[Torah613]

I am not sure how the laws of citizenship work in Israel if you
are not a Jew.

The rep from the Jewish Agency is going to be in town in a few
weeks; I am going ask her if it is possible to become an Israeli
citizen (dual citizenship with the US) without having a target
date for aliyah. I don't think it is, but there is nothing I would
love more than to become an Israeli citizen in addition to a
US one. :)
And there is nothing I would love more than to be an Isreali citizen instead of a US one. Heck, I'd volunteer for the IDF--without pay--if it would just get me in the door. Course, like I said, Visa and MC and AmEx probably have different ideas.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

And there is nothing I would love more than to be an Isreali citizen instead of a US one. Heck, I'd volunteer for the IDF--without pay--if it would just get me in the door. Course, like I said, Visa and MC and AmEx probably have different ideas.

Yochanan

Hey, if you really wanna go, contact nefesh b'nefesh or the
Jewish agency. You get all kinds of bennies when you make
aliyah, so you can work there and pay off those plastic bills
from Israel. The IDF will even pay you!

[Torah613]

with depts like these, I don't think they'd even let me out of hte country.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

with depts like these, I don't think they'd even let me out of hte country.

Yochanan



Well, how are they going to know where you live? ;)

I have a friend that made aliyah a couple of years ago,
runs his business over the internet, has voip so he
kept his old US phone number, has a PO Box in the US- not
even his ex-wife (who he is avoiding) knows that
he moved to Israel, LOL.

[ChazakEmunah]

Hey, if you really wanna go, contact nefesh b'nefesh or the
Jewish agency. You get all kinds of bennies when you make
aliyah, so you can work there and pay off those plastic bills
from Israel. The IDF will even pay you!
Nefesh b'Nefesh is awesome! That's who my wife and I are going to go through when we make aliyah (b'zrat HaShem sooner rather than later).

[ChavaK]

Nefesh b'Nefesh is awesome! That's who my wife and I are going to go through when we make aliyah (b'zrat HaShem sooner rather than later).
Everyone I know who has made aliyah has gone through them
and spoken very highly of the organization and experience.

[Torah613]

Everyone I know who has made aliyah has gone through them
and spoken very highly of the organization and experience.
erm link?

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

http://www.nbn.org.il

[ChazakEmunah]

erm link?

Yochanan
Here you go: http://www.nbn.org.il/index.php

[ChazakEmunah]

LOL.... Some cross-posting going on there.... :)

[Talmidah]

What's that saying about great minds? LOL

[Torah613]

thanks....erm both of you. ;)

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

thanks....erm both of you. ;)

Yochanan

Not that we're trying to get rid of you or anything....:D

[Torah613]

Nah, Talmidah's just trying to get one of us to move to Isreal with a suitcase big enough for her whole family to hide in. ;)

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Hey, whatever it takes to get you there! LOL

[Torah613]

Hey, whatever it takes to get you there! LOL
Personally, I'm trying to loose some weight so I can be passed off as an Etz Chayim for LARGE print Torah. ;)

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Personally, I'm trying to loose some weight so I can be passed off as an Etz Chayim for LARGE print Torah. ;)

Yochanan

Well, stick with a diet and I woodn't be surprised if you
achieve that goal soon!
But don't limit yourself; branch out and consider other
options. You will get so thin, you will be able to pass your self
off as the top of the bima :D

[Torah613]

Rofl

[Talmidah]

Roflol!!!!!