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LuciusJulius

17th April 2008, 01:56 AM

Bushmaster78FS

17th April 2008, 04:15 AM

A good website is orthodoxinfo.com on details if you want to do further read on your questions, let me give you short answers in a nutshell, then you can ask more... Also do a google "What Orthodox Christians believe..."

I. How similar is the Orthodox Church to the Roman Catholic Church in doctrine, organization, and worship?

You could say order of service, Eucharist, sacraments are visible similarities but there are significant differences in our theology, doctrines, and organization. We don't have a papal authority, we certainly do not make Virgin Mary co-redeemer, etc There are many other differences, ask specifically if you want to...

II. Do you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired from God himself? Do you believe that it's without error? (I personally do...)

Yes, it is divinely inspired, the message is without error. Though Bible was written by fallible man, through inspiration by God, nothing like a mechanical revelation such as Islam claims happened, and men erred in relaying the copies of the Scriptures and so on. St. Jerome points out the mistakes of the works of the scribes that he received his texts from, for instance.

III. Also, do you believe in the "rapture" doctrine, that before the tribulation period (last days), Jesus Christ will take up his church to be with him?

This is a doctrine that was developed in the 19th century, we don't see early fathers teaching it, so no, we don't believe rapture.

IV. Do you believe that it's possible for non-Orthodox Christians to be saved, and go to heaven upon death?

Don't the heterodox have a Savior? Yes they do.

V. Do you believe in purgatory in addition to heaven and hell, or is that a Catholic belief?

That is a Catholic belief, and a dogma, Orthodox do not believe in it.

VI. Finally, do you believe that hell is a place of eternal punishment, while heaven is a place of eternal peace, joy, and comfort in the pressence of God?

In the presence of God, that was the keyword. ;)

Knowledge3

17th April 2008, 01:37 PM

Hello there!

I have some questions for Orthodox Christians, first of all, let me begin by telling you that I don't really affiliate me with any one denomination, I just call myself a Christian, as that's what I am, a follower of Christ. I guess I would be considered a Conservative Protestant, in fact, I've been labelled a Fundamentalist before.

I. How similar is the Orthodox Church to the Roman Catholic Church in doctrine, organization, and worship?

I study about Catholicism and the proper usage of the term Catholic Church. The practices generally are not the same. The most common aspect in the RCC and EO is the collective history of Christianity from the birth of Christ A.D. 1. The Orthodox Church differs in worship because she still offers incense in the form of authentic liturgical worship.

II. Do you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired from God himself? Do you believe that it's without error? (I personally do...)

Yes, sacred scripture is divinely-inspired and inerrant.

III. Also, do you believe in the "rapture" doctrine, that before the tribulation period (last days), Jesus Christ will take up his church to be with him?

The rapture is in Thessalonians which is sacred scripture. St. Paul was raptured according to scripture but the Orthodox Church seems to not believe it or rejects the biblical rapture. For me, this is a theological question that is yet to be resolved.

IV. Do you believe that it's possible for non-Orthodox Christians to be saved, and go to heaven upon death?

I learned that this is a mystery of the Church. What happens to a person and the soul after death is a mystery. Hence, why we have the prayer(s) for the dead.

V. Do you believe in purgatory in addition to heaven and hell, or is that a Catholic belief?

Purgatory is specifically a Roman Catholic belief ~ similiar to the notion of 'Toll Houses' among the doctrines of the Orthodox Church. One can say "I don't know" concerning Purgatory or Toll Houses - I draw the same parallel.

VI. Finally, do you believe that hell is a place of eternal punishment, while heaven is a place of eternal peace, joy, and comfort in the pressence of God?

I believe in a literal hell, the Genhenna as mentioned in the sacred scriptures and the Gospels. Also, Sheol in the biblical and authoritative understanding of the LXX Old Testament.

Macarius

17th April 2008, 05:17 PM

Hello there!

Welcome to TAW! May God bless and have mercy on us both.

I have some questions for Orthodox Christians, first of all, let me begin by telling you that I don't really affiliate me with any one denomination, I just call myself a Christian, as that's what I am, a follower of Christ.

Questions are most welcome. When you say you don't affiliate yourself with a particular denomination, I assume you mean with a particular institutional denomination. The decision not to be a member of a particular institutional church is, in and of itself, a 'denominational' choice because it assumes, perhaps correctly (but it is an assumption none-the-less), that one can, in fact, be a (full) christian without membership in a visible institution.

In other words, it depends on a specific definition of christianity - that definition is at odds with the assertion of other definitions of christianity, and thus the "non-demoninational" movement of evangelical protestantism is, in and of itself, a denomination. It's just a denomination that affirms a congregational style of governance (without any superstructure like the mainline protestants or traditional churches).

You seem to recognize that here...

I guess I would be considered a Conservative Protestant, in fact, I've been labelled a Fundamentalist before.

That sounds like a correct assesment, based on your implied understanding of the nature of the church, so long as neither of those was said with any kind of negative tone. While I may disagree with fundamentalist protestants on a few points of theology, I think one has to respect anyone who sincerly and uncompromisingly pursues the Truth of Christ.

I. How similar is the Orthodox Church to the Roman Catholic Church in doctrine, organization, and worship?

I'll take these one at a time.

Doctrine: very similar. We use the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed - the same as the RCC, though they added three words to is in the early 11th century which we disagree with. We use the same scriptures, although we also use III Maccabees on occasion and they seem not to. We profess the Incarnation the same as they do (Christ was one person - Jesus - fully divine and fully human, with two full natures and therefore two full and complete wills in complete cooperation with one another and, in that one person, without any separation or division). We profess the same Trinity (one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons undivided in one divine essence).

We profess that human beings are born under the curse of Adam's sin. However, we do not think this includes guilt for Adam's sin. We are guilty only of our own sins. This doesn't stop us from suffering the consequences of Adam's sin though - just as the victim of a murderer is not guilty of murder but still suffers its consequences. Adam's sin made human beings subject to death and create a culture of sin whereby we are raised learning how to sin and raised in a society which is captive to death. This captivity keeps us from repentance and therefore keeps us from God, who is love and life itself.

We profess that the Son of God, Christ, came down and was incarnate of the virgin Mary and became man and was crucified under Pontius Pilate and suffered and was buried, and that on the third day he rose again, in accordance with the scriptures.

We profess that this was for our salvation. To break down the barriers between God and man and, thereby, to bring us back into communion / union with God, that we might be, as St. Peter puts it, partakers of the divine nature - that we might enter into His communion of love. By becoming man, the barrier between creator and created was broken down. Human nature was infused with the divine energy and grace of God so that we, by baptism (in which we "put on Christ" as St. Paul puts it) could enter into that transfigured human nature of Christ and be likewise transfigured - remade into the likeness of God.

We believe that by entering death and conquering it through the cross and resurrection, God broke down the second barrier between God and man - death. This is spoken of in 1 Cor, Hebrews, and all over the gospels. Christ came that we might have LIFE, and have it abundently, to free us from that which all our lives had held us in bondage to death. This is Christ victorious - and for us that victory is the primary meaning of the cross. We don't focus on the Christ in torment on the cross - although by entering our suffering Christ transformed that as well - we tend to focus on Christ the victor.

The final barrier is sin. This is dealt with by repentance, but the tools for that were delivered by Christ to us. He gave us the example, gave us the road - the Way - and the calling to repent. He sends the Holy Spirit and His grace to give us the means and will (for our will tends to screw things up). He gave us the physical church to be the pillar and ground of the truth - the place where we are discipled to the Truth He preached, are given the tools of repentance (prayer, fasting, alms, sacraments), and are given a community in which to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." For though we are saved from death by Christ and from separation from God by Christ, we separate ourselves again each time we sin, and true full salvation is nothing less than full and true communion with God. This is a continuous process of growth which lasts a lifetime.

The Catholic church, excepting the stuff I mentioned about the cross, affirms all of that. And even the cross stuff they affirm (they just emphasize the justice/ punishment-in-our-stead, whereas we really don't).

We do, however, disagree with Catholics on a few points of doctrine. We disagree with them on the precise relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son. We disagree with them on the nature of original sin. This means we disagree with them on the concepts of purgatory and indulgences and, traditionally, limbo, although that concept is no longer part of catholic theology. We also disagree with them on the role of the papacy - and that gets into organization.

We do not have any equivalent to the Pope in the RCC. We profess that there is no bishop above any other bishop. Each bishop is in charge of the see to which he has been given, and is to preach the Truth of Christ. We are united, not by an organization, but rather by being officially "in communion" with other bishops.

I take communion from my priest. He is under the obedience and charge of Bishop Benjamin of San Francisco and the Western USA. Bishop Benjamin is "in communion" with the other Orthodox bishops of the USA and also with the bishops of Greece, Russia, etc etc. In communion means that I could go to any of those churches and do at least two things:

1) find the same faith preached.
2) take communion.

My priest could serve communion in those churches Theologically, It's the Same Communion. The same body and blood of Christ. We are ONE church because we have ONE baptism, ONE Lord, ONE faith and are, literally and physically, ONE body. That one body - the one body of Christ - is formed by taking the same Eucharist, which is Christ's body. By becoming one with Christ's body, we become one with one another.

We are organized by three-fold episcopate, like the Catholics. We have deacons (married and single), priests (married and single), and bishops (monks only). We do not ordain women to the priesthood or as bishops, though traditionally there has been a women's deaconate - and this still is used in Greece. I'd like to see it used here as well.

We do not profess papal infallibility - or really ANY infallibility. We are human. We err. We make mistakes. We trust God to guide the Church and make it more than the sum of its (very fallen) parts, and because of this we DO NOT advocate leaving the Church for any reason.

The Church here being defined as that communion which carries the fullness of the apostolic revelation of God - the revelation of Christ... We profess, in honor of Christ's promise in Matt 16, that the Church will never die. Therefore, there will always be the Truth on earth. The Church is a gift and is, therefore, a critical part of our understanding of the gospel. We can't separate the Truth from those who speak the Truth. We must be discipled in the Truth to recieve it correctly. It isn't something discovered - it's something revealed and taught. In this we agree with the Catholic Church.

Because of this, we profess apostolic succession. We have institutional and doctrinal unity with the apostolic church. Because of that we are "the same church" as they were - we are "successors" of the apostles.

If a dispute or error arrises within the Orthodox Church, we tend to resolve it in a Church council. Bishops meet together and discuss the matter. This is directly from the model given in Acts 15.

Lastly, we worship liturgically, generally without instruments (a capella chant). We tend to be MORE liturgical than the RCC is, but always in the local language (sometimes resulting in bi-lingual services where there is a mixed community, as in some churches here in the US). The service is not designed, as some post-vatican II services have been, to "hype me up" or create a strong emotional reaction in me.

Quite the opposite. The services are designed to quiet the soul and calm the passions. By doing this, we become aware of the presence of God as He is present in every moment - in the silence between the seconds, in the sound of a foot on pavement, in the leaves on a tree, in the embrace of a friend... We find God in His constant sustaining of the universe and His constant love for us. God's first language is silence, and God is still, quiet, peaceful, unchanging. Our worship reflects our pursuit of this God. By forcing ourselves to slow down and to forget ourselves for a bit we find God is already there.

This couples with a strong sense of asceticism in Orthodoxy. We believe that to truly repent one must escape the trap of one's self-centeredness, and that the way to do this is asceticism. This is not body-hating. Quite the opposite. We love the body. We emphasize the importance of the physical in our worship (with icons, vestments, candles, bowing, crossing ourselves, kissing things, incense, and many other things). We are embodied persons - not merely spirits in a body, but a body-spirit undivided tandem. This is human nature, it's how we were designed, and it is GOOD.

However, the body often get's out of control. Our spirit becomes its slave, moving from moment to moment and thought to thought entirely captive to the whims and needs of the body. Asceticism helps us escape this, learn self-control, and thereby help us repent. It is always done in moderation, never to the expense of health, and always under the guidance of a more experienced spiritual mentor. But the principle is to 'get outside ourselves' and realize there is more to life than money, time, entertainment, and our bellies.

Our worship is also focused on the sacraments. We don't number them. All of life is ultimately sacramental (an offering to God which He fills by His grace and transforms into communion with Him). We do, however, celebrate baptism as a genuine death and resurrection - a joining of a person to Christ's transfigured and resurrected human nature. We do profess that we recieve forgiveness in confession (though God may always forgive when He pleases to; we don't limit God... this is more of an experiential thing). We profess the Eucharist is Christ's body and blood, though we don't specifiy specifically how or at what point it becomes that. The sacraments are points of meeting between us and God - moments where our whole self, including the body, are caught up into the descending grace of God and into His love. They are, therefore, considered "saving" to us.

II. Do you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired from God himself? Do you believe that it's without error? (I personally do...)

Yes, and yes. Though we have to interpret it correctly, and specifically we have to be using the right Bible. That isn't a huge issue, but when scholars decide that certain parts 'no longer belong' in the Bible we just profess that we've been using those parts for as long as we can remember (which is an awefully long time - we're going back to pre-Constantine on this stuff) and so we trust that, if it were wrong, God wouldn't have given it to us, and even it were a later addition by an interpolator then that addition was by the inspiration of God since, in all cases, the words themselves are perfectly Orthodox.

III. Also, do you believe in the "rapture" doctrine, that before the tribulation period (last days), Jesus Christ will take up his church to be with him?

I don't think we speculate that deeply on the specifics of eschatology. We certainly affirm a second coming which has not yet occured (and yet which occurs every Eucharist as the Kingdom is already here, yet not yet here). We affirm that Christ triumphs and that the New Kingdom will be full of life and free of sin. The middle part... eh... dangerous to speculate. Diversity is allowed here, so far as I'm aware, though I'm open to correction on this.

IV. Do you believe that it's possible for non-Orthodox Christians to be saved, and go to heaven upon death?

Absolutely. God can save whomever He wants to save. I don't pretend to judge another soul. It is also possible for someone who is, to all appearances, a Christian, not to be saved in the final analysis (note Matt 25). Only God knows our hearts, and He alone may judge.

V. Do you believe in purgatory in addition to heaven and hell, or is that a Catholic belief?

Catholic belief.

VI. Finally, do you believe that hell is a place of eternal punishment, while heaven is a place of eternal peace, joy, and comfort in the pressence of God?

Yes. God may save someone from hell though - or at least, that's my optimistic hope. we aren't universalists, but we are free to hope that everyone is saved. We certainly are to pray that everyone is (even the devil).

Thanks for your time!

You're welcome!

In Christ,
Macarius

Julina

17th April 2008, 06:25 PM

is the bible still without error even if it contradicts itself in some parts?

also, my take on purgatory: i always thought that earth acted like it. besides, i'd be dead. i shouldn't be doing work!

just thought i'd share :D

i like reading everyone's answers. it helps me because i'm just learning, too :)

Matrona

17th April 2008, 06:37 PM

Doctrine: very similar. We use the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed - the same as the RCC, though they added three words to is in the early 11th century which we disagree with. We use the same scriptures, although we also use III Maccabees on occasion and they seem not to. We profess the Incarnation the same as they do (Christ was one person - Jesus - fully divine and fully human, with two full natures and therefore two full and complete wills in complete cooperation with one another and, in that one person, without any separation or division). We profess the same Trinity (one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons undivided in one divine essence).

The RC's Old Testament canon is several parts short of ours. Not as many as the Protestant Bible, but the Council of Trent still left them short 3 Maccabees among others.

Also, the word added to the Creed by the west altered the doctrine of the Trinity as it was believed there. It represented a fundamental deviation from Holy Tradition. I wanted to point that out because from what you said it sounds like the Great Schism happened over nothing if we believe in the "same Trinity" despite the interpolation the West shoehorned into its recitation of the Creed.

We do not ordain women to the priesthood or as bishops, though traditionally there has been a women's deaconate - and this still is used in Greece. I'd like to see it used here as well.

Deaconesses never represented a true "female diaconate", in the sense that there were ever any females in the same clerical office that deacons are in today.

EmperorConstantine

17th April 2008, 11:35 PM

I shall answer what I can...

Macarius did a great job with the first question, so that shall be skipped for now.

Hello there!
Greetings, earthling! :)

III. Also, do you believe in the "rapture" doctrine, that before the tribulation period (last days), Jesus Christ will take up his church to be with him?
If by "rapture" you mean the theology similar to the "Left Behind" series; than no.

We don't really know much in terms of "end times" stuff. The most I know, is that one day Christ will return and no one knows when (except for the Father).

IV. Do you believe that it's possible for non-Orthodox Christians to be saved, and go to heaven upon death?
That is all God's business there, not ours.

V. Do you believe in purgatory in addition to heaven and hell, or is that a Catholic belief?
That's one of those uniquely Roman Catholic things like an all celibate priesthood.

Thanks for your time!

-LuciusJulius
No problem! :)

LuciusJulius

18th April 2008, 03:02 PM

If by "rapture" you mean the theology similar to the "Left Behind" series; than no.

We don't really know much in terms of "end times" stuff. The most I know, is that one day Christ will return and no one knows when (except for the Father).

One other question, does the Eastern Orthodox Church recognize the book of Revelation as a part of the Bible? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Roman Catholics believe that Revelation is a genuine part of the Bible.

is the bible still without error even if it contradicts itself in some parts?

I think some passages seem that way, but I don't think it necessarily contradicts itself. An example: Jesus did not come to do away with Old Testament laws, but to fulfill them.

Macarius

18th April 2008, 03:10 PM

Both the Orthodox and RCC churches accept Revelations as a fully inspired book and as part of the New Testament, on equal footing with the other New Testament books.

It took a while to catch on in the East - there were pockets that resisted its inclusion in the canon for a few centuries - but today it is without question.

We don't read from it in the lectionary (the list of what bible passages we read on what days), but our worship is based on it in certain ways, and we certainly look to it for key parts of our theology and as a meditation on who Christ is - a verbal icon of Christ, if you will.

rusmeister

18th April 2008, 09:06 PM

The one thing I would add is that it seems the question is being asked from the wrong end. If we approach it not from how different we all are today but from what happened to the newly established Christian Church after the events described in the book of Acts and actually trace out that history, everything, all of our differences begin to fall into place and become understood. I find that most Protestant histories tend to be very sketchy prior to the Reformation - to use a crude analogy, as if the Holy Spirit took a 1,500 year vacation.