Schismatic?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Matrona made a comment on another thread about ROCA being in schism with the rest of the Church. ROCA and ROCOR are the same, right? My real question is this: What does it really mean to be in schism?

I certainly would NEVER goes as far to say that people who attend ROCOR parishes are not Orthodox!!! I've read things from their website, and know a couple people who attend a ROCOR parish, and they certainly sound Orthodox to me. The thing I respect most about them is that they are very diligent in trying to adhere to the Traditions of the Church. Perhaps they sometimes get the big T and little t traditions confused, but nonetheless I don't think we should be declaring them "not Orthodox." As far as I can tell, their biggest fear is of compromise in the name of ecumenism. IMO, this fear is not without validity.

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Its a bunch of Rubbish. Because the ROCA dosent want to modernize they are now in schisim with the true Orthodox churches.

[Matrona]

Matrona made a comment on another thread about ROCA being in schism with the rest of the Church. ROCA and ROCOR are the same, right? My real question is this: What does it really mean to be in schism?
I wasn't talking about ROCOR; ROCA, to the best of my knowledge, is a part of ROCOR that refuses to discuss reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate. I think it is a horrible, nasty sin to break communion with canonical Orthodox churches, however, and that is something ROCOR is guilty of.

There are so many schismatic groups claiming to be the Russian Orthodox Church, however, that it's hard to keep them straight.

[Oblio]

I think some ROCA/ROCOR parishes are in schism from canonical Orthodoxy. I was under the impression that some will commune OCA members if they had met their praxis requirements (e.g. confession evening/morning prior etc.) . Then there is ROAC, who are definately schismatic and apart from Orthodoxy.

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Grand Duchess. :wave:

It's a complicated situation. ROCA and ROCOR are different names for the same jurisdiction.

Yes, they are fully Orthodox and canonical (in the sense they have valid and real sacraments and clergy).

However, since their administrative situation is irregular thay can be considered to be in schism.

But by the Grace of God and the goodwill of Met. Laurus and His Beatitude Alexis II, ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate began official talkings about ROCOR's return to the Russian Church - something that I guess it will happen in less than five years from now.

Of course some people inside ROCOR are against the reunification, but thank's God they are a minority.

You can read more about it from the Pravoslavie site - just click on the links below:
- Main obstacles to reapprochment are gone (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/ennews/040514143847)

- Patriach Alexis of Moscow has received Met. Laurus (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/ennews/040516090238)

- Results of talks between Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/ennews/040528144830)

In XC,
Rick

[Rick of Wessex]

Also, I forgot to mention that there are hundreds of uncanonical groups that claim to be Orthodox but, in fact, are not, either because they don't have valid clergy and/or sacraments (as is the case of the dozens of Greek or Romenian "True Orthodox Churches") or are herectics, as is the case of HOCNA or the so-called ROAC ("Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church"), who practices the ancient heresy of "name-worshipping". :sigh:

You can read more about these groups in Al Green's list of non canonical groups that use "Orthodox" in their names (http://a_g_green_jr.tripod.com/OtherOrthodox.html).

In XC,
Rick

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Do you all know any of the history behind the reason of the seperation between these two bodies of the same church?

[Reader Nilus]

ROCOR is NOT schismatic, The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, or also known as The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, is not to be confused with The Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church which is schismatic.
Jeff the Finn

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Thanks, Rick! You're always very helpful!:hug:

[Moros]

Yep, ROCOR is in fact working to reunite with the Moscow Patriarchate.

[Oblio]

Let us hope that this rift between the MP and the separated ROCA/ROCOR will be quickly healed and that we may further unite the many jurisdictions in the USA under one Church.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Let us hope that this rift between the MP and the separated ROCA/ROCOR will be quickly healed and that we may further unite the many jurisdictions in the USA under one Church.
AMEN!:prayer:

[Reader Nilus]

The word from His Grace Bishop TIKHON at least on the Indiana List is not to promising when it comes to the jurisdictional mess in America.
Jeff the Finn

[linden branch]

Do you mind me asking how schism is determined within the Orthodox Church?

[Rick of Wessex]

Linden,

In Orthodoxy, a schism is determined when:

1) a jurisdiction "walls itself" from the other jurisdictions and breaks doctrinal and/or Sacramental communion with the other jurisdictions, or

2) is declared uncanonical by other churches (such as it happened with the so-called "true orthodox church of Bulgaria").

Hope this helps.
In XC, Rick

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Rick, I would like to know what happened to the Old calander Church of Bulgaria?

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Stone_Lock_Comanche. :wave:

Rick, I would like to know what happened to the Old calendar Church of Bulgaria?

In Bulgaria after the fall of communism a group of Orthodox hierarchs and faithful proclaimed themselves to be the "true" Bulgarian Church, and that the official Bulgarian Church had fallen in to some sort of heresy as a result of what had gone on in communist times.

The schism was quite ugly, and appeals were made to the Patriarch of Constantinople to gather hierarchs from several autocephalous Churches to assess the situation and to heal the schism.

The Patriarch of Constantinople, together with primates or representative hierarchs from several other Churches (Russian, Serbian, Antiochian, Romenian and others) went to Bulgaria, assessed the situation, determined that those who had broken with the official Church were in the wrong and that the official Bulgarian Church under Patriarch Maxim was indeed the legitimate Church.

There are clear processes that need to be followed - and these are in canons of Ecumenical Councils - to help resolve such issues. Those from the "independent" Orthodox movements broke communion with world Orthodoxy without following these processes, and thus are not canonical jurisdictions.

In short, if a bishop is accused of heresy, the processes need to be followed by which to assess the situation, make attempts to reconcile all parties, etc.

In XC,
Rick

[Nickolai]

Let us hope that this rift between the MP and the separated ROCA/ROCOR will be quickly healed and that we may further unite the many jurisdictions in the USA under one Church.

This looks like it's on the way to happen. Funny enough, the first union will most likely be ROCOR and OCA. Metropolitan HERMAN's visit to moscow wasn't only to return the Holy Tikhvin Icon. Most people don't know this but when the Met first left for Holy Russia he also brought a former ROCOR bishop with him because Alexy requested it. This was supposedly to discuss the possible steps to bring ROCOR and the OCA under the same Jurisdiction. And some have even speculated that they will become an American Patriarcate.

[linden branch]

I would love to see the reconciliation of the OCA and ROCOR.

[countrymousenc]

I would love to see the reconciliation of the OCA and ROCOR.


So would I, linden branch. I'm sure that once ROCOR is reconciled with the ROC, reconciliation with the OCA will follow. It looks truly hopeful.

[vanshan]

I think some ROCA/ROCOR parishes are in schism from canonical Orthodoxy. I was under the impression that some will commune OCA members if they had met their praxis requirements (e.g. confession evening/morning prior etc.) . Then there is ROAC, who are definately schismatic and apart from Orthodoxy.


I have been invited to commune at a ROCOR parish in OKC, although I'm in the Antiochian jurisdiction, as long as I make a confession and prepare appropriately.

The history of ROCOR is somewhat complex, but I do not question their canonical status. Under the black veil of communism the faithful of Russia had to either compromise or make some difficult decisions. The clergy in Russian who remained as part of the Moscow Patriarchate were considered "compliant" by the communists. If the communists accepted you, that was a pretty clear indication that you had compromised to them on things concerning the faith. Those who would not bend under the yoke of communism were martyred or became part of the Russian diaspora. From everything I have heard they were correct to break from the Patriarchate, and were even instructed to do so by the Patriarch.

As far as reunification with the Moscow Patriarchate, you have to understand their reluctance. The current Patriarch himself was one of those who the communists considered "most compliant." He may have changed, or somehow found a way to exist within communism without compromising the faith, but the faithful are still weary of rejoining.

Basil

[Reader Nilus]

I met His Holiness Patriarch ALEXIS when he was still Metropolitan of Lenningrad, he visited our parish, a side note the last Russian Bishop to visit Wilkeson also ended up Patriarch of Moscow, St Tikhon. The thing was when reporters were present Pat.ALEXIS was very guarded in what he said, but with the clergy and no reporters, he told us what it was really like. He was no lap dog of the Soviets.
Jeff the Finn

[vanshan]

He was no lap dog of the Soviets.
Jeff the Finn

This is reassuring.