Non law keeping Christians at Passover?

[Caissie]

If you were hosting a Seder meal on Passover, would you let non-law keeping Christians attend?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is there such a thing as a continually disobedient christian ?
(re from Hebrew Scriptures, old and new testaments, i.e. deut and 1john)

[visionary]

Wheeeeeewuuu...**wipes brow** for a second there I thought you were going to check to see if he was ***blush** circumcised. [Just kiddin']

[Caissie]

Wheeeeeewuuu...**wipes brow** for a second there I thought you were going to check to see if he was ***blush** circumcised. [Just kiddin']

In a sense, I am....Would you invite a family memeber to your Passover supper if he/she was not circumcised in the heart? (Wouldnt that be putting a curse on them if they ate it?)

[Steve Petersen]

In a sense, I am....Would you invite a family memeber to your Passover supper if he/she was not circumcised in the heart? (Wouldnt that be putting a curse on them if they ate it?)

Where did you get that notion?:scratch:

[Caissie]

Where did you get that notion?:scratch:

1 Corinthians 11

20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

[Torah613]

Egads of course! Hospitality is a very high commandment.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

1 Corinthians 11

20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The Seder is a sermon about Jesus in a sense.

Didn't Jesus say, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor.'

[zaksmummy]

If they are willing to come and eat Passover, God will reveal himself - I have no problems with this.

[Lulav]

If you were hosting a Seder meal on Passover, would you let non-law keeping Christians attend? Depends on what you mean by 'non-law'. The requirements are that if male, they must be circumcised.

[Lulav]

Is there such a thing as a continually disobedient christian ?
(re from Hebrew Scriptures, old and new testaments, i.e. deut and 1john) If by hypocritical, then yes, very much so.

[Lulav]

In a sense, I am....Would you invite a family memeber to your Passover supper if he/she was not circumcised in the heart? (Wouldnt that be putting a curse on them if they ate it?) The law is to not eat of The Passover if you aren't circumcised, the word 'Passover' describes the sacrifice, not the whole meal, and in this case since Yeshua told us that the matzo represented his body, which was the sacrifice, broken for us, then they should not be allowed to take part in that, which would be the Afikomen, but may sit there and hear the telling, eat the rest of the meal and perhaps come away different from that.

The Seder itself is not The Passover, it is the lamb that is the Passover and when you eat of the middle matzo that represents Yeshua, and when that is passed around only those spiritually circumcised should partake of it because they understand the true meaning of it.

[Lulav]

Caissie, I see you are in Iraq? I guess you will be spending Passover there? I will pray for your safety and for a blessing to bring light there by way of this holy time. :prayer:

[Kris10leigh]

The Seder itself is not The Passover, it is the lamb that is the Passover and when you eat of the middle matzo that represents Yeshua, and when that is passed around only those spiritually circumcised should partake of it because they understand the true meaning of it.

What about children then who do not understand the true meaning of it?

[Lulav]

If they are under bar mitzah age but are circumcised there is no problem.

I would still use the lesson of hiding he afikomen and teach what that means, but I may not allow them to partake of it, explaining that they need to be older to do so, but you can still teach them what it means. Most children won't have a problem not eating one more piece of tasteless matzo, and especially if you don't call it dessert. Give them a real treat, a K4P dessert. But reward them for finding it, they will remember that for now. I see you have two boys, what are their ages?

[Kris10leigh]

My boys are 6 and 8 (tomorrow). They've been doing communion for years now though, so they have already been exposed to the meaning behind the bread and the wine. I was just curious as to how most people view children fitting into this.

[Lulav]

Do you come from a church that uses leavened bread for communion?

[Caissie]

Caissie, I see you are in Iraq? I guess you will be spending Passover there? I will pray for your safety and for a blessing to bring light there by way of this holy time. :prayer:

Actually, I just got back about a month ago. This will be my first Passover in the States in 3 years (the last 2 were in Baghdad). While I was there, I had Passover by myself the first year (I invited a couple of people to join me, but they couldn't make it) and over the phone/internet with my girl friend the second year.

[Lulav]

Opps! better change your profile then. Welcome home! I hope your seder is wonderful this year!

[Kris10leigh]

Do you come from a church that uses leavened bread for communion?
It depends. If it is taken by intinction we use a full loaf broken in half. If it is passed around in the pews we usually use wafers.

[Lulav]

It depends. If it is taken by intinction we use a full loaf broken in half. If it is passed around in the pews we usually use wafers.I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said. :confused:

[Talmidah]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said. :confused:

From wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intinction)

Intinction is the Eucharistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist) practice of partly dipping the consecrated bread, or host, into the consecrated wine before distributing it to the communicant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicant).

[Lulav]

Why do words like that make my skin crawl?

[Kris10leigh]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said. :confused:
^_^
That's ok! That's how I feel most of the time. ;)

To elaborate on what Talmidah's explaination, if taken by intinction, the congregation forms a line through the aisles of the churches and each member goes up to the Pastor and usually the assistant Pastor. One holds the bread and the congregation breaks off one small piece while the Pastor says something like, "This is the body, broken for you." The congregant then dips the bread in the "wine" (grape juice) while the assistant pastor says "This is His blood, shed for you."

If the "wine" and bread are passed around while we're seated, the bread is usually a wafer, but not the same wafer as a Catholic church would use. I'm not sure what it is, leavened or unleavened.

I don't know what about those words makes your "skin crawl", but I assure it is a sacred act. ;) It is not the same as Passover with unleavened bread, but the symbolism is still there.

[Torah613]

well this is certainly an interesting discussion. I never knew that methodists did that. The few times I went when I was younger it was much more like the baptists.

Of course where I grew up there was a real difference, and any member of either body would tell you so. of course none of em knew what it was, just that they didn't talk to "those sort of people."

Yochanan

[Lulav]

^_^
That's ok! That's how I feel most of the time. ;)

To elaborate on what Talmidah's explaination, if taken by intinction, the congregation forms a line through the aisles of the churches and each member goes up to the Pastor and usually the assistant Pastor. One holds the bread and the congregation breaks off one small piece while the Pastor says something like, "This is the body, broken for you." The congregant then dips the bread in the "wine" (grape juice) while the assistant pastor says "This is His blood, shed for you."

If the "wine" and bread are passed around while we're seated, the bread is usually a wafer, but not the same wafer as a Catholic church would use. I'm not sure what it is, leavened or unleavened.

I don't know what about those words makes your "skin crawl", but I assure it is a sacred act. It is not the same as Passover with unleavened bread, but the symbolism is still there. Thanks for the explanation, I didn't mean to disparage, I guess I have been reading too many medical words lately, and had many dental visits that words like intinction, sounded ominous to me! :eek::swoon: I think I've seen what you are explaining. But I remember going to a friends husband's Methodist church and they had you come to the front and they passed a plate with tiny squares of bread in it, that's why I asked. Then the minister came through with the cup and I think they each drank from it. I think she told me it was grape juice. I didn't know they had a formal name for it though, I thought everyone called it communion!

:)

[Lulav]

well this is certainly an interesting discussion. I never knew that methodists did that. The few times I went when I was younger it was much more like the baptists.

Of course where I grew up there was a real difference, and any member of either body would tell you so. of course none of em knew what it was, just that they didn't talk to "those sort of people."

YochananYes, I didn't either, in fact I remember my friend husband saying that he had to have even his sermons sanctioned ( I think that is the right word) and he had to give them from the pulpit so he was above the people, when in fact he liked coming down and speaking to them from the front. They were very strict he said, in that all ministers followed the same procedure so that is why I am surprised to hear this about the different ways, of course this was about 8-10 years ago last I saw them.

[ChazakEmunah]

Egads of course! Hospitality is a very high commandment.

Yochanan
Yes, but one should take great care when inviting non-Jews (those not going through halachic conversions) as there are several halachic issues involved. See this (http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v6/mj_v6i95.html#CWA) link for more details.

[ChazakEmunah]

Depends on what you mean by 'non-law'. The requirements are that if male, they must be circumcised.
You know that requirement is only for the korban Pesach right? In other words, when the Beit HaMikdash is rebuilt, no non-Jews will be permitted to participate in the korban Pesach.

[Lulav]

You know that requirement is only for the korban Pesach right? In other words, when the Beit HaMikdash is rebuilt, no non-Jews will be permitted to participate in the korban Pesach.According to Rabbinic Judism, yes, but it is different for Messanic Jews, our final Pesach lamb has been sacrificed and when we eat the Matzah that represents that sacrifice we must be circumcised, but in a different way, the way of Deut 10:16 and 30:6 and a circumcision not made of ( by) hands which still requires an age of accountability for this.

[ChazakEmunah]

According to Rabbinic Judism, yes, but it is different for Messanic Jews, our final Pesach lamb has been sacrificed and when we eat the Matzah that represents that sacrifice we must be circumcised, but in a different way, the way of Deut 10:16 and 30:6 and a circumcision not made of ( by) hands which still requires an age of accountability for this.
You're talking about BrisLev. My favorite topic. :) In the case of BrisLev, all of us need such a bris, not just men. And it is a requirement not just for Pesach, but it is the only way we can attain Avodah haLev.


I have to say though, this is the first time I've heard of such a Messianic interpretation for the mitzvah of brit milah. Very interesting.

[visionary]

A Story of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov
1 - Dic - 2000


The great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov (sometimes called Bratzlav, Breslau or Bratislava) was the founder of the Breslover Chasidic sect. Breslov is a town in the Ukraine where Rabbi Nachman spent the end of his life, but some say the name Breslov comes from the Hebrew bris lev, meaning "covenant of the heart." He emphasized living life with joy and happiness. One of his best-known sayings is, "It is a great mitzvah to be happy." Collections of his Chasidic tales (or tales attributed to him) are widely available in print.



Rebbe Nachman of Breslov had a follower who was poor but very pious.

Taking advantage of some business opportunities he started becoming more prosperous. But the more his business commitments multiplied, the less time he had for his spiritual pursuits. Eventually he even stopped visiting Rebbe Nachman.

The Rebbe's window overlooked the main street in the town. Once he looked out and saw this man hurrying to the market. He called him. The man was ashamed and could not pretend he had not heard.

"Did you look up at the sky today?" asked the Rebbe.

"No."

Rebbe Nachman pointed to the market-place and asked him what he could see. "Horses, wagons, merchandise, lots of busy people..."

"Fifty years from now," said Rebbe Nachman, "there'll be a totally different market with different people, different wagons and different goods. You won't be here and I won't be here. So let me ask you: Why are you in such a hurry that you don't even have time to look up at the sky?"

Rebbe Nachman told the man to take at least a few moments every day to look up at the sky in order to remember that worldly life passes all too quickly and only the heavens endure.

This is something everyone should do. The mundane world can be so absorbing, but very soon it will be gone. Look up often at the sky in order to put things in their proper perspective.

Here (http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/print.asp?id=68)

[ChazakEmunah]

A Story of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov
1 - Dic - 2000


The great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov (sometimes called Bratzlav, Breslau or Bratislava) was the founder of the Breslover Chasidic sect. Breslov is a town in the Ukraine where Rabbi Nachman spent the end of his life, but some say the name Breslov comes from the Hebrew bris lev, meaning "covenant of the heart." He emphasized living life with joy and happiness. One of his best-known sayings is, "It is a great mitzvah to be happy." Collections of his Chasidic tales (or tales attributed to him) are widely available in print.
Yep, you can learn all about Breslev emuna here (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/emuna_beams//) and here (http://www.breslovworld.com/).



Rebbe Nachman of Breslov had a follower who was poor but very pious.

Taking advantage of some business opportunities he started becoming more prosperous. But the more his business commitments multiplied, the less time he had for his spiritual pursuits. Eventually he even stopped visiting Rebbe Nachman.

The Rebbe's window overlooked the main street in the town. Once he looked out and saw this man hurrying to the market. He called him. The man was ashamed and could not pretend he had not heard.

"Did you look up at the sky today?" asked the Rebbe.

"No."

Rebbe Nachman pointed to the market-place and asked him what he could see. "Horses, wagons, merchandise, lots of busy people..."

"Fifty years from now," said Rebbe Nachman, "there'll be a totally different market with different people, different wagons and different goods. You won't be here and I won't be here. So let me ask you: Why are you in such a hurry that you don't even have time to look up at the sky?"

Rebbe Nachman told the man to take at least a few moments every day to look up at the sky in order to remember that worldly life passes all too quickly and only the heavens endure.

This is something everyone should do. The mundane world can be so absorbing, but very soon it will be gone. Look up often at the sky in order to put things in their proper perspective.

Here (http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/print.asp?id=68)
Now you're talkin.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[HalcyonFire]

I don't know personally... but my friend Mike attends all the time with his Jewish and Messianic friends... so I would assume at least in some groups, this is acceptable.

[Torah613]

some people are more Machmir (strict then others). Of course if goyim were invited to my seder, they would not participate in the actual ritual, but would be there for the telling and feasting. And of course that sickeningly sweet meshuval wine.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

out of all the chasidic sects, I think I like breslev the best.

Of course, nothing beets the stupendously profound sayings of the Besht himself.

Yochanan

[ChazakEmunah]

out of all the chasidic sects, I think I like breslev the best.

Of course, nothing beets the stupendously profound sayings of the Besht himself.

Yochanan
Did you know that Rebbe Nachman is the great-grandson of the BeSHT?

[Lulav]

I think for a Christian gentile holding the service the point is moot. But all must start somewhere, no? :)

Shabbat Shalom everyone!