Pope says sorry for crusaders' rampage in 1204

[Moros]

Thumbs up. However, I don't see why people feel the need to apologize for things they haven't done. While the apology is nice, it must be taken with a grain of salt and at face value, considering the VERY ecumenical patriarch's visit to rome.

--

The Pope delivered an emotional apology to Orthodox Christians yesterday for the Catholic plundering of Constantinople eight centuries ago, saying it caused him "pain and disgust".

He made his comments during a visit to the Vatican by Bartholomew I, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and the head of the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians.

"In particular, we cannot forget what happened in the month of April 1204," the Pope said, in reference to the sacking of Constantinople by crusaders. "How can we not share, at a distance of eight centuries, the pain and disgust."

Reconciliation with the Orthodox Church has become a focal point of the Pope's 25-year reign and has gained in urgency as his health increasingly fails.

On a visit to Athens in 2001 the Pope asked God's forgiveness for Catholics, who he said had committed sins against Orthodox Christians for 1,000 years. He has also apologised to Muslims for the Crusades.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/30/wpope30.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/30/ixworld.html

[Reader Nilus]

Did the Pope offer restitution for the items that were stolen by those crusaders?
Jeff the Finn

[Moros]

I'm thinking not. It would be nice if, say, the Pope agreed to donate enough funds to the EP so that he may release the Greeks of America so that he will not need their money to pay off the Turks.

One must ask himself, "how sincere is the Pope on this matter?"

[Michael the Iconographer]

Did he offer to return the Holy Mandylion to Orthodoxy and all of the other icons and relics which were stolen from us? That would be a true sign of repentance!

[NewToLife]

Perhaps we ought to simply take the apology at face value and forgive them? The icons and relics are indeed precious and the loss is substantial but I would suggest that if we fail to forgive them we lose something more precious still.

[InnerPhyre]

Slowly but surely the relics are going back to the Eastern Church. I believe all that was taken unjustly will eventually be returned. Pope Paul gave back the skull of St. Andrew and such. Wait and see.

[Nickolai]

Perhaps we ought to simply take the apology at face value and forgive them? The icons and relics are indeed precious and the loss is substantial but I would suggest that if we fail to forgive them we lose something more precious still.

If we simply take this at face value we can open the door to ecumenism with the west, and we could eventually comprimize Orthodoxy as a part of the ecumenism that, sadly, the EP seems to be starting. We have to keep face by questioning Romes motives in this. He could just be trying to get buddy buddy with us becasue he wants to use us, and not because he wan't to truly mend the schism.

[Reader Nilus]

If one steals something and then goes to confession, to receive absolution and to partake of the Holy Mysteries, that person has to make restitution to the victim before receiving absolution. It shows the fruit of repentance.
Jeff the Finn

[NewToLife]

If we simply take this at face value we can open the door to ecumenism with the west, and we could eventually comprimize Orthodoxy as a part of the ecumenism that, sadly, the EP seems to be starting. We have to keep face by questioning Romes motives in this. He could just be trying to get buddy buddy with us becasue he wants to use us, and not because he wan't to truly mend the schism.


I'm not sure that we ought to be thinking in terms of mending the schism or not mending the schism here, this is about accepting an apology with grace. The point is that as Christians we are to forgive others their wrongs. If our Lord can offer forgiveness from the cross to those crucifying him ( who were in no way repentant ) can we really not manage to forgive the See of Rome for events some 800 years ago when an apology is belatedly offered?

[NewToLife]

If one steals something and then goes to confession, to receive absolution and to partake of the Holy Mysteries, that person has to make restitution to the victim before receiving absolution. It shows the fruit of repentance.


Yes, thats true but we are not talking about an Orthodox Christian in confession here. We are simply talking about accepting an apology offered by one outside of the Orthodox church, it hardly follows that we must enter full communion if we accept an apology.

[Eusebios]

The apology is nice, and we should accept it graciously, but repentance it is not. When we see the return of Holty relics and icons, then we will be seeing repentance and a true desire for healing.
Having had my rant, I also will venture to say that Pope John Paul II is I believe sincere, as is the EP in seeing reconciliation between the Orthodox and Rome. Both are in less than enviable positions in this regard. Our duty as Christians, should be to pray for them. This doesn't mean we have to always agree with them, or harbor warm feelings about them, but that we must ask God to move in them to bring about His will, that His Kingdom would come, on earth as it is in Heaven.
Under His Mercy,
Eusebios.
ps, I loathe the "leader of the worlds xxx million Orthodox" handle that the media always hangs on the EP!!

[Moros]

ps, I loathe the "leader of the worlds xxx million Orthodox" handle that the media always hangs on the EP!!

It's not just the Media, it's the EP himself. Check out Patriarchate.org

Biography section:

"His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is the 270th successor to the Apostle Andrew and spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide."

[Oblio]

It's not just the Media, it's the EP himself. Check out Patriarchate.org

Biography section:

"His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is the 270th successor to the Apostle Andrew and spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide."

Not that this error has been necessarily excised, but did you note the following on the first line of text ?


Please Note: This site is currently inactive. You may wish to browse the Official Site of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Greek.

[Oblio]

They updated it

As Ecumenical Patriarch he transcends every national and ethnic group on a global level and today is the spiritual leader of approximately 250 million faithful world-wide.

:)

[nyj]

However, I don't see why people feel the need to apologize for things they haven't done. While the apology is nice, it must be taken with a grain of salt and at face value, considering the VERY ecumenical patriarch's visit to rome.
I don't quite get this. According to you, there is no need for the Pope to apologize (since he didn't partake in the Crusades), but then the apology needs to be taken with a grain of salt and we need to pay the EP a huge sum of money... sorry, but I'm really confused by your comments.

A: I'm sorry for the wrongs committed.
B: Oh, don't worry, no need to apologize. But hey, while you're at it... if you really are sorry, how about dropping a few ducats in our coffers.

[Moros]

I never said he needed to, it was just an idea of something he could do if he wanted to offer restitution. Instead of giving back all the stolen relics and icons, he could assist the EP with a potential schism within our own church.

[nyj]

Instead of giving back all the stolen relics and icons, he could assist the EP with a potential schism within our own church. Since we're not Orthodox (nor in your opinion, orthodox), why would you want/need help from us to solve your problems?

Also, despite popular belief, the Catholic Church doesn't have vaults full of gold hidden in the basement of the Vatican. We can't afford to be anyones sugardaddy. At any rate, I'll step out of here before things get super heated. Good day to everyone.

[OrthodoxTexan]

I'm not sure that we ought to be thinking in terms of mending the schism or not mending the schism here, this is about accepting an apology with grace. The point is that as Christians we are to forgive others their wrongs. If our Lord can offer forgiveness from the cross to those crucifying him ( who were in no way repentant ) can we really not manage to forgive the See of Rome for events some 800 years ago when an apology is belatedly offered?

What NewToLife said. While I also feel a certain emotional reaction that says that the Pope should offer the return of stolen relics and icons, especially those housed in Catholic Churches in Venice, France, and the Vatican, that emotional reaction must be tempered by the Christian attitude of forgiveness. Let us listen to the words of our Lord and Saviour and beg for forgiveness for the faults of our prideful human nature.

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."

"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

[Moros]

Since we're not Orthodox (nor in your opinion, orthodox), why would you want/need help from us to solve your problems?

It was a suggestion for a hypothetical situation. I would rather not have any relations with Rome, personally. But, since our EP is such a flaming ecumenist, we don't have any choice.

[Oblio]

But, since our EP is such a flaming ecumenist, we don't have any choice.


Now I'm confused ?? Our EP ? Are you (we ??) in his jurisidiction or dioscese ? Or do you agree with his oft quoted claim of leading all the worlds Orthodox Christians ?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Now I'm confused ?? Our EP ? Are you (we ??) in his jurisidiction or dioscese ? Or do you agree with his oft quoted claim of leading all the worlds Orthodox Christians ?
Now I'm confused. Is the EP the "leader" of the Orthodox Church? That scares me! If that's the case, what's the difference between the role of EP and the Pope??? I thought the whole papacy thing had a lot to do with the Great Schism. Why would we want a pseudo-pope now?

[Moros]

The EP is first among equals, no? When I say 'we' I meant Orthodoxy as a whole, with Bart. as first among equals. Or is he just first amongst equals amongst Greeks? :p

[Oblio]

First among equals does not mean that he leads us or that we follow him, apostate or not. When the Church as a whole, with the leading and guidance of The Holy Spirit comes to a direction or pronouncement of Ecumenical nature, then he speaks on behalf of the Church as a representative, not as a Vicar or Pontif.

[katherine2001]

The EP is the "leader" of his jurisdiction. I am in the OCA and my leader is Metropolitan Herman. If you are in the MP or Russian Orthodox Church, your leader is Patriarch Alexei, etc.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Okay, I feel better now.:)

[Moros]

First among equals does not mean that he leads us or that we follow him, apostate or not. When the Church as a whole, with the leading and guidance of The Holy Spirit comes to a direction or pronouncement of Ecumenical nature, then he speaks on behalf of the Church as a representative, not as a Vicar or Pontif.

I am aware of this. I have a bad habit of making broad generalizations which often confuse people. Something to work on, I guess.

This thread is getting a little O/T.

[prodromos]

The Pope delivered an emotional apology to Orthodox Christians yesterday for the Catholic plundering of Constantinople eight centuries ago, saying it caused him "pain and disgust".

Forgive me, but I was under the impression that the Pope had already publically apologised for the 4th Crusade on behalf of the Catholic church some years ago.

With regard to the return of relics and icons taken during 1204, I don't think it is as simple as that. Many of these icons and relics are venerated by faithful who probably have no knowledge as to haw their church came to be in possession of the same, and it has been like this for many generations. I don't believe the Pope would, or even should order their return to the Orthodox church. They do, however, need to learn the history and circumstances under which they came to be in possession of the relics and icons, and if by the grace of the Holy Spirit they decide that they should return them, they will be accepted with much joy.

John.

[Rilian]

They do, however, need to learn the history and circumstances under which they came to be in possession of the relics and icons, and if by the grace of the Holy Spirit they decide that they should return them, they will be accepted with much joy.

I think you pretty much put into words what I was thinking. I'm not Orthodox and the history here is not mine, so I don't feel it's my place to judge. It seems to me though that the greatest sin here is not that the items were pillaged, as horrible as that was, but that so many people are unaware of the history behind all of this. I think if people became aware of it and returned the items of their own accord, that would be the best outcome.