Pope welcomes Orthodox leader, says visit will help fix rift

[Moros]

thumbs down.

VATICAN CITY -- Pope John Paul II welcomed the spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians on Tuesday, expressing hope the visit would help mend a historic rupture between the Eastern and Western branches of Christianity.
"We are praying that the Lord of history purifies our memories of every prejudice and resentment and allows us to freely proceed on the road of unity," John Paul said.

The pope has often appealed for rapprochement, but new strains have developed in recent years over what some Orthodox see as attempts by the Vatican to expand its reach in traditionally Orthodox parts of the former Soviet Union.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches split in the 11th century in disputes over the growing power of the papacy.

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20040630/topstories/85239.shtml\

Pope John Paul II yesterday welcomed Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios to the Vatican. The Catholic and Orthodox leaders expressed the desire that their churches continue a dialogue aimed at ending a schism that dates from 1054. The patriarch is leading a 12-member delegation that will meet with Catholic officials tomorrow. He will also attend the consecration of an early Christian church that the Vatican has given the Orthodox Church.

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope John Paul II welcomed with “joy” yesterday the visit of the spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians, expressing hope it will help mend the historic rupture between the Eastern and Western branches of Christianity. “We are praying that the Lord of history purifies our memories of every prejudice and resentment and allows us to freely proceed on the road of unity,” John Paul said.

“That embrace has become a symbol of the hoped-for reconciliation between the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, as well as a symbol of hope in the path toward full communion among all Christians,” John Paul said.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100002_30/06/2004_44502

[linden branch]

Hello Bruncvik,

Why the thumbs down? I can understand objecting to specifics of any proposed reunion, but why be negative to the general idea?

[Moros]

Because Orthodox are going to get the short end of the stick should a reunion occur. The Papacy will never renounce the infallibilty/ex cathedra, and probably not the papal primacy of jurisdiction, though this one has more room for negotiation.

Should a unification happen, we would commune papists, if the EP chooses to recognize the papacy and rescind his own position as first among equals and hand it over to the Pope. (based on his past actions, this seems very likely)

We would see statues in our churches. We would see more inter-orthodox schisms. We would probably accept the Filioque. We would probably accept the invalid Marian dogmas. Rosaries would probably be authorised. We would add Catholic saints to our calendar.

These are all worse case scenarios and I wont present my opinion as fact.

English is bad tonight, please excuse.

Remember, that the Orthodox church is a very traditionalist church! The very worst symptom of this liberal ecumenism is modernisation and loss of identity!

[MattMMMan17]

I understand your concern, Bruncvik. But remember, once we are again united, it will be because of the workings of the Holy Spirit within those involved. The gates of hell will never prevail against the Church Christ built. So when we are unified, we will be protected still against heresies that would seek to undermine the Church. Whatever happens within the Church will be ratified by God Himself in Heaven. He would not allow us to be led astray so far as you suggest by uniting our Churches together once more.

[Moros]

You seem to be forgetting that man has free will, and we don't believe in patriarchal infallibility. :)

[MattMMMan17]

You seem to be forgetting that man has free will, and we don't believe in patriarchal infallibility. :)
But you do hold the first 7 councils to be binding, and there is always the possibility of another being held when reunification takes place. God will protect His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church because Jesus declared that the gates of hell will not prevail. I put my trust in him.

[Moros]

This is a good point. One of my favourite Psalms: 118:8.

But, history shows us that not even Ecumenical Councils are infallible: case in point, anti-Chalcedonians and the subsequent formal anathematizing of them at the next Council.

Councils can cause rifts and schisms just as they can heal them.

[NewToLife]

You seem to be forgetting that man has free will, and we don't believe in patriarchal infallibility.

Although this is true I would point out that we do believe that the church as a whole is protected by our Lord from error.

Reunification seems to me to be a very remote possibility so long as our estranged brothers under the see of Rome continue to embrace erroneous doctrines, recognising this we are free to work at improving our relationships with them. For the record I believe that improving our relationships is actually a good thing, it gives us the opportunity to show them what the true church actually looks like after all.

[Moros]

I am curious to see how the patriarch and next pope's relations will be. Rumour has it the next pope will be quite conservative, perhaps he will tell the very liberal Bartholomew that he isn't interested.

[InnerPhyre]

There are no statues in Eastern Catholic churches. Why would they suddenly spring up in yours?

[Matrona]

For the record I believe that improving our relationships is actually a good thing, it gives us the opportunity to show them what the true church actually looks like after all.
Amen. That's what I pray His All-Holiness's motivation is in keeping the lines of communication open. Our headstrong Roman child may yet return home, if we keep the homefires burning while insisting that coming home means that she absolutely must give up her dogmatic inventions and innovations.

[Reader Nilus]

It has to be remembered that the EP does not speak for Orthodoxy as a whole, but his own diocese, and that is about it.
Jeff the Finn

[Patristic]

Amen. That's what I pray His All-Holiness's motivation is in keeping the lines of communication open. Our headstrong Roman child may yet return home, if we keep the homefires burning while insisting that coming home means that she absolutely must give up her dogmatic inventions and innovations.
I wonder if Rome would be willing to do this...? Everyone knows that modernists love to attack the Church and Rome backing down from previous dogmatic assertions would be nothing more than kindling wood for the flame. People who relish attacking the Catholic Church would love to point out that Rome has backed away from it's claim to infallibility and universal jurisdiction. In the end Rome would lose so much credibility that I don't think they would ever seriously consider such a possibility...unless moved by the Holy Spirit.

[Reader Nilus]

Ecumenism is "irrevocable," Pope says (http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=30512)
This article appears in Catholic World News and in it His Holiness Patriarch BARTHOLOMEW says this:
The Orthodox prelate expressed his own desire for Christian unity, while conceding that this would come only in the future, and "that future may be remote."


"Only the Holy Spirit can allow unity," the Patriarch continued, adding that a main obstacle to Christian unity today comes from "those people who give their opinions as if they were expressions of the Holy Spirit." Unity among Christians, the Orthodox Patriarch said, is very different from the union of secular states, and more difficult to achieve. "The unity that we seek," he explained, "will come we have the humility of Christ, his love, his sense of sacrifice."
As we can see HH Patriarch BARTHOLOMEW was blunt, "those people who give their opinions as if they were expressions of the Holy Spirit." Wow, he laid it out in front of every one inside the Vatican! If there was a better placed jab it must have been something. Of course he was referring to the Infalliblity of the Pope, and then remarks that unity is in the remote future. So praise God the EP is not selling out.
Jeff the Finn

[Rilian]

That is an interesting observation Jeff. I also found this speech (http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/bartholomew_phos.html) which Bartholomew gave at Georgetown (a Catholic University) a few years back. He notes, and it has been my experience, that the differences between the East and West are really ontological, not just differences of doctrine. I think he then goes on to give a fairly nuanced critique of many of the heretical tendencies of the West that keep the two churches apart.

[Nickolai]

Reunification seems to me to be a very remote possibility so long as our estranged brothers under the see of Rome continue to embrace erroneous doctrines, recognising this we are free to work at improving our relationships with them. For the record I believe that improving our relationships is actually a good thing, it gives us the opportunity to show them what the true church actually looks like after all.

I agree with this. However the chances of reunification (I don't like calling it that, Our belief on the schism is that Rome left us, NOT that the Church split into two parts. But I use reunification for simplicities sake.) are very slim. For reunification to occur one of three things would have to happen.

1. The Orthodox Church as a whole has to accept all the dogmas created by the Roman see since 1054. That cannot and will not happen.

2. The Roman see will have to declare that it was wrong and in schism for the last ~1000 years. And in the process, the Pope is no longer the head of the Church. And the Popes jurisdiction falls into Rome and the area surrounding it. This is a logistical nightmare. Think off all the Latin Catholic Churches worldwide that whould now be under different juridictions. Not to mention all the Catholic literature that whould no longer be helb true by anyone. millions of Catholics whould have to change what they believe.

3. Both the East and West would have to go in halfway. This is Heresy, Plain and simple.

Looking at this the only viable option for the Orthodox is the second option. We all know that's not gonna happen lest God commands it to.

[MattMMMan17]

millions of Catholics whould have to change what they believe.

Actually, it would be over a billion.

[MaRiNa_Orthodox]

Lets be realistc, this will not happen simply because we are too much different and because most Orthodox don't want to unite with Catholic, and same goes with Catholics...and the other thing that creeps me out is that the Pope wants to be the BOSS if we unite again and that our Partriarch is kinda beside him...i dont know. I am not for uniting, it's just gonna make more problems, just look at Croatians and Serbs, Catholic and Orthodox, we don't get along very well at all...i m just saying...God bless u all! Bye byez

[Dominus Fidelis]

Whats the deal with statue-phobia? We aren't bothered by your icons. This seems like such a petty thing to fight about. :doh:

[prodromos]

Whats the deal with statue-phobia? We aren't bothered by your icons. This seems like such a petty thing to fight about. :doh:

I'm not particularly bothered by statues, but they are pretty limiting when it comes to expressing theological truths. Icons are much better :)

John

[Matthias]

This is FANTASTIC news! Imagine Orthodoxy and Catholicism as ONE again! I can hardly wait! Let's hope this takes place in our lifetime!

[countrymousenc]

Conversion of non-Orthodox Christians and churches is the only true hope for unity. The situation is not hopeless; there have been whole congregations that converted during the last few decades . Our job is to love and to educate our separated brothers and sisters.