Fundamentalist Christianity and Politics

[joe_mikol]

*Disclaimer* Not trying to start anything or bash anyone with this, but stating how I feel.

The definition of fundementalism, as I read posted by what looked like the moderator of this forum, was defined very brilliantly describing the true, down and dirty faith in Christ and action for Him. However, I am so terribly bothered lately by the connection fundamentalist faith receives with extreme republicanism. I'll come out and admit that I'm an extreme liberal, but define myself as a political liberal and moral conservative. However, my political beliefs aren't why I'm posting this. I'm here to rant/complain about how many churches I've gone to that dedicate entire sermons and often entires weeks to justifying the Iraqi War and saying how much we should reelect King Bush to office (excuse my sarcasm). The Iraqi war seems to be the new Christian "crusade" and George Bush is our new pope, getting closer to deity status every day. Yes, I live in Houston, TX, so I expect extreme conservatism by nature, but this seems like a nation-wide epidemic of war and violence in the name of Christianity! People everywhere preach "Pray for troops!" but I have yet to hear "Pray for the Iraqi's!", which is the praying for our enemies which Jesus so radically preached. I've seen vehement debates which turn into screaming and arguing over the "necessity" of the war, while I've never seen anyone getting so passionate about prayer and fasting for the lost, or someone getting riled up over a need to help the poor, all things which Jesus commanded us to do! Verses like "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21) and "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written 'It is mine to avenge, I will repay'" (Romans 12:19) and the classic treat others as you would like to be treated, turn the other cheek, so on and so forth! Reading the Bible you find Jesus' radical position of love and peace, not a radical position of hate and violence!
But excuse me, I'm going beyond myself. I'm really not trying to bring up political debate, but ask why in the world is conservative politics so often preached and connected with fundamentalist faith? To me, personally, if I follow the Bible by it's fundamentals, which I try to, I would never fight anyone, turn the other cheek, pray for my enemies, and show nothing but love (I try, I'm a pacifist)! What verses or words of Christ or early church leaders leads so many of my brothers and sisters to encourage so passionately the war and fighting brought on by the war on "terror". I ask for the Biblical and early historical evidence by which you justify your beliefs. And, I must add, I dismiss most if not all Old Testament verses as part of God's old covenant, changed with the glorious new covenant of Christ's redeeming blood. Thank you.

In Christ,

Joe

*DISCLAIMER* Again, I just wanted to remind I'm not asking political views or trying to stir such passions. I wish for the Biblical evidence by which you justify fundamentalist faith being connected with conservative politics.

[Phoebe Ann]

I certainly wouldn't want to attend a church that talked about politics like that. I want a sermon to be a sermon, not a political speech.

[HumbleMan]

Since the third century when Constatine co-opted Christianity, it has always been entwined in politics. I'm personally a social, economic, and religious conservative, and I believe that politics have no place in someone's walk with Christ.

But to answer your question, conservatives have always believed in absolute truth. It's a bedrock of their existence. But unfortunately, some people with agendas contrary to what is in the best interest of the country, or it's citizens, use the bible as justification for their words and deeds. And believe me, the liberals use these tactics, too.

[Joe Orwell Fuss]

The "turn the other cheek" statement, as once explained to me, was that we should not be the aggressors. On the other hand, we are not to be the door mats of the world. As Christians, we have responsibilities to our familes, and providing a sense of comfort and safety is part of that job. Perhaps someone can add something or correct me.

Politics are left at the door when me and my congregation come together and worship. We are Christians first, and politics brought up in lessons/sermons would only divide us. I would whole-heartdly confront this preacher and ask why he is doing such a thing. I like Bush, myself. I believe he was the best candidate in 2000, and still the best in 2004. However, that does not give me the right to stand up and rant and rave in during services.

I agree with you when you say that we should pray for the Iraqis, as well as our troops. They are both in need of our prayers, and we should not single them out.


Again, I just wanted to remind I'm not asking political views or trying to stir such passions. I wish for the Biblical evidence by which you justify fundamentalist faith being connected with conservative politics.
Well, I suppose I can only make shots in the dark, but liberals seem to be against everything the Bible says. They don't want prayer in schools, they support gay marriage, euthinasia, and abortion. I don't think the Bible fits being conservative, but conservatism fits the Bible.

Well, that's my two cents. Hope it made sense!

[joe_mikol]

Maybe I should define myself as a politically liberal Christian:

I believe that abortion, homosexual relations and the like are wrong. I believe in the truth of the Bible. I believe in any true Christian doctrine preached in the Bible. However, I believe that this nation, contrary to errant belief, is NOT Christian. There may be a majority claiming such a title, but, even if all of them were part of the body (which, unfortunately, is not true), then, by the constitution of this government, there is a seperation of church and state. HOWEVER, I believe this differently than most liberals. The seperation of church and state was meant so that the STATE would not take over the CHURCH (as in the case of England), NOT so that the church would not take over the state. A conservative interpretation of the clauses of the constitution regarding religion is that the government will not "respect" any religion over another within it's power, and is not an absolute rejection of religion from the government completely. If there is prayer in schools, it should be agreed upon by a majority and not discriminate against those of other faiths, respecting all views equally. If someone wants to put the 10 commandments in a court room, if a majority votes for it, they may do so. But if a similar item of another religion is rejected unfairly, then the 10 commandments should be removed as well.
I believe that, since this nation is NOT a Christian nation, and the world is not a Christian world, that we should start our approach from there. However much I abhor abortion, and I DO believe there is evidence that life begins at conception, I know that (1) the evidence, even if perfectly clear, will never be accepted by the unbelieving majority and (2) we can not force our beliefs on the unbelievers. It is our job to teach and live out our lives as examples of Christ, not to make laws that do that job for us (as I believe much of conservative politics does now adays). However, seeing that there will always be moral objections to abortion, it is our job to create not only social awareness programs, but to encourage benefits for those that choose alternatives to abortion. This step goes above the educational slap on the hand and rewards for good behavior, something which will open the gateway for many to find their way to Christ(if we let churches sponsor abortion education and benefits). Similarly, I believe extremely strongly against homosexual marriage. However, I believe that it is not provable that homosexuality is a psychological disorder wrought by many things, and that our government has no authority to outlaw the marriage or union of said individuals, nor does the goverment care. Like abortion, if the serious danger homosexuality poses can be proven (which, to biased minds, cannot) then it is possible to outlaw it. But, unfortunately, this is not possible. Therefore, we should reluctantly let them continue on their ways of sin(as God let us do before we were saved) living out our lives of righteousness and following of Christ as the law that we all follow, and not implementing laws to do that work for us.
As a political Christian liberal, a central belief is realizing the error our world is caught in and that our part is living out the example through our actions and outreach, letting GOD work in man's heart, not trying to get the government to enforce God's law. We do not need the government to tell us what we already know, and tell the unbelievers what they are unwilling to hear. Instead, through our activism as warriors of Christ, the Holy Spirit will use our examples to work in men's hearts. No law passed by any government can do this. However terrible it may be to our hearts, we must realize that the government is losing, if it hasn't already lost it, the power to legislate morality. In fact, besides murder, our government has no moral power. But it wasn't meant to: God is the moral arbiter, and we must live our lives so that people KNOW that. This is not to discourage us from trying, but we must do it keeping in mind that America is NOT a Christian nation, and the world is NOT a Christian planet. We are a small minority with the greatest God on our side.
And in response to my pacifism and the comment about us not being the doormats of the world, God never said we had to be. However, let me first put you in a situation: Go back in time and ask the first martyr, Stephen, what you're supposed to do when being criticized for your faith or being attacked. Ask those in Vietnam, in North Korea, in China, in Sudan, in Nigeria, in Indonesia, in Iraq who daily are threatened, beaten, spat upon, and all too often killed for their faith. Ask them what to do when the enemy comes, and they will say open up your arms with love and pray. Read The Voice of the Martyrs if you haven't already. Not only the doormat interpretation of Matthew 5:39 (turn the other cheek) out of context with how Jesus spoke of it this with his sermon on the mount, but you miss the point of what happens when we are persecuted and when we turn the other cheek. Through our persecution and through our deaths, God is given the highest glory, and so many Christian's faith is strengthened, and that only one thing!!! So many salvations of those who killed Christians have been obtained through the Holy Spirit's using that Christian's martyrdom as a way of moving on the lost persons heart! Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven! (Matthew 5:10), the LAST and most important (to me) Beautitude. But why DOES Jesus tell us to turn the other cheek? Because HE turned his cheek to us on the cross!!! Every lie you've told was a punch to Jesus' face. Every lustful thought a kick to his side. Every sin you've committed was you swinging the hammer full force into the nail through Jesus' hand as you said "I'm sinning and I like it!" Your sin nailed Jesus to the cross and yet he turned the other cheek and said "NO! I love you too much!" Jesus has called us to follow his example, the highest priveledge being to die for his sake! To say that by turning the other cheek we become a doormat is a lie from Satan. Nothing brings more glory and honor to God and our families through our persecution.
And, as an aside, I also believe politically that pacifism is better than war. When I was an atheist two years ago I still believed in pacifism, and it just blended spiritually as well as politically when I came to the faith. Sorry to rant so long. I wish I could elaborate more but I must sleep!

In Christ,

Joe

[twistedsketch]

I don't believe that we're a Christian nation either. We always have been an individualistic nation. I don't believe a Christian nation can exist unless God, present in the flesh, is governing it. In other words, the Thousand Years, and later, Heaven.

If I turn the other cheek and I am the one that people are attacking, that is one thing. But if I had friends or a wife or children that they wanted to get at, and I stood in their way, I see that very differently. I do not believe that turning the other cheek requires me to let others suffer if I can help prevent it. I dread to think what would happen if I were to have a little girl and if somebody breaks in and rapes her. If I did nothing about it, how would I convince her the God and Daddy love her even though I was there and did nothing to prevent it.

As for caring for the poor, it seems that much "care" for the poor as many liberals view it is ranting about the evils of capitalism and asking for legislation that would eventually turn us into a socialist state. They want government programs over actual Christian service. After all, it is easier to pay some more taxes and forget about it. I believe instead of causing all this political strife where nothing gets done, Christians should come together as a church, pray for needs to be met, and see what practical ways there are to meet needs.

I'm glad you're being civil about this. I have run into too many liberals who were not. I believe Christians should accept each other and put aside political differences. Unfortunately, I had some run ins with Christian extreme leftsits who refuse to and would not acknowledge brotherhood, even though we trust the same Jesus for salvation.

[Christi]

I think there are positions in both/all political parties that could be considered biblical. I think there are things that are biblical that can be explained away, or translated into nonexistence by anyone at anytime. It just depends where you place your emphasis, what you want to be taken at face value, and what you want to diminish. Everyone does it. You have to take the whole Bible in context, though, instead of nitpicking verses you like and verses you don't. You have to look at the plot, the message, the story. When you see everything through the lense of God's pursuit of us, and love for us....everything makes sense. You KNOW what to do, and what to believe, and who to be, and how to behave when you know HIM. If not, we're just translating, and wondering, and explaining, and contexting, and excusing, and arguing. :)

[joe_mikol]

Many less polite people bring up the argument you nicely brought up to me about someone else you care about or love being attacked. I'm usually condescendingly told that if my wife was being raped I wouldn't just stand by there and watch, as they believe the pacifist position preaches. However, my definition of pacifism is not what they are thinking. I don't believe in killing people on any circumstance, and believe the least violent and most loving ways of prevention should be used in such cases. I look at Jesus' clearing of the temple as my example. Impassioned by the rage of the Holy Spirit, Jesus flings over tables and drives off people with whips, urgently protecting the sanctity and holiness of his Father's temple. In the same way, if someone were trying to defile my wife or daughter (neither of which I actually have) I would either (a) pull them away, or (b) knock them unconscious over the head with a chair or similar object. Yes, it's violent, but it's not killing the person, and I do it with the love for my wife, and, although it's hard to tell, for a love of that person's well being (sin such as that will destroy much more than a concusion does).
As to service, I believe our Christian service should be above all things. However, I don't think that should discourage us from having government programs which, if a majority agrees on, helps the people (which constitute the governement!). Apathy is indeed a tremendous obstacle in the way of many Christian lives, and conviction is in short supply. However, just as I believe we cannot force the country to realize the terrors of abortion and homosexuality, I believe that we can still fight for Christian influence on the education on such issues and benefits for those who choose another route (as in fight for the Church to be able to do much of this work). Given, there are some CRAZY liberal politicians which look at a socialist state, but a large degree of government subsidized aid programs and taxes representative of our income (giving back more to the America which helped us become more wealthy) only perpetuates the democracy we have so that the people may be encouraged by the success of our government. (Now, the success of programs helping people get jobs and get out of bad homes and such is debatable, but I think everyone can agree that the only truely effective way of changing things is to attack the root of the problem, which social programs should do and what we as Christians should aim to do).
I'm not quite sure what I'm rambling about anymore. Meh. Have a blessed day, y'all!

In Christ,

Joe

[premilldispensationalist]

*Disclaimer* Not trying to start anything or bash anyone with this, but stating how I feel.

The definition of fundementalism, as I read posted by what looked like the moderator of this forum, was defined very brilliantly describing the true, down and dirty faith in Christ and action for Him. However, I am so terribly bothered lately by the connection fundamentalist faith receives with extreme republicanism.

I am a fundamentalist :blush: and am socially conservative however as a fundamentalist I see that political action is unwarranted and we are not meant to involve ourselves in politics!

Regards,
Richard

[twistedsketch]

Joe, I'm glad you're not one of those CRAZY liberals. :)

[Razorbuck]

I ask for the Biblical and early historical evidence by which you justify your beliefs. And, I must add, I dismiss most if not all Old Testament verses as part of God's old covenant, changed with the glorious new covenant of Christ's redeeming blood. Thank you.

In Christ,

Joe

*DISCLAIMER* Again, I just wanted to remind I'm not asking political views or trying to stir such passions. I wish for the Biblical evidence by which you justify fundamentalist faith being connected with conservative politics.Joe,

I have not experienced the type of preaching that you describe, though I will say that President Bush is well thought of in my church (independent, fundamental Baptist). I support my President and my country in the war on terror, and so do many in our local church, but we also "pray for the Iraqi’s" and everyone else touched by this conflict.

Your question is an interesting one, but since I don’t hold the position you described I’m ill-qualified to address it.

However, the nature of your inquiry I find fascinating.

It is interesting to me that you ask for "biblical evidence by which you justify fundamentalist faith being connected with conservative politics" then "dismiss most if not all Old Testament verses". Is the Old Testament not part (most) of the canon of Scripture? Why then would it not count as "biblical evidence"?

Has God changed? (Malachi 3:6)

Is Christ and Jehovah of one mind? (John 10:30)

Does the Old Testament apply to us today? (1 Corinthians 10:11, John 5:39, Romans 15:4)

Did Jesus teach from the Old Testament? (Matthew 21:42, 22:29, Mark 12:24, Luke 24:32,45)

Did Paul? (Acts 17:2)

Did the early Christians? (Acts 17:11, Acts 18:24,28)

I hope you take the time to answer. I truly wish to understand your position.

Yours in Christ

Matt (Razorbuck)

*DISCLAIMER* I'm not trying to stir passions. I simply wish for the Biblical evidence by which you justify dismissal of biblical evidence.

[Paula]

I am a fundamentalist :blush: and am socially conservative however as a fundamentalist I see that political action is unwarranted and we are not meant to involve ourselves in politics!

Regards,
Richard
How so? I think being politically apathetic is one of the worst mistakes a person could make. This is what led up to the Supreme Court's decision in Election 2000. Approximately 50% of all registered voters didn't show up at the polls!

While I have never agreed 100% with any political candidate, for Christians not to vote at all would be catastrophic.

Joe, I'm glad you're not one of those CRAZY liberals. :)
Me too! What a welcome relief! :D

However, I am so terribly bothered lately by the connection fundamentalist faith receives with extreme republicanism. I'll come out and admit that I'm an extreme liberal, but define myself as a political liberal and moral conservative. However, my political beliefs aren't why I'm posting this. I'm here to rant/complain about how many churches I've gone to that dedicate entire sermons and often entires weeks to justifying the Iraqi War and saying how much we should reelect King Bush to office (excuse my sarcasm). The Iraqi war seems to be the new Christian "crusade" and George Bush is our new pope, getting closer to deity status every day. Yes, I live in Houston, TX, so I expect extreme conservatism by nature, but this seems like a nation-wide epidemic of war and violence in the name of Christianity! People everywhere preach "Pray for troops!" but I have yet to hear "Pray for the Iraqi's!"
Hi, Joe! Welcome to the Fundy section. I also live in the Southwest and have attended many conservative Christian churches out here, none of which have ever preached politics. I happen to be an Independent who did not vote for Dubya the first time, but likely will come November, primarily because I think the other guy is much scarier. Overall, I'm about 80% in agreement with Bush's politics, especially now that CIA Director Tenet has stepped down. But I don't think this is where you want to go.

I most certainly do share your concerns about politics getting mixed in with church doctrine, and am very surprised and sorry to hear this is happening at churches in your area. Generally, our congregation offers up prayers for the troops, as well as all casualties in the Middle East, for guidance and wisdom for our leadership, that sort of thing. Every so often, clothing donations and collections are taken up for relief efforts for victims of war, earthquakes, and other disasters.

Have you discussed this problem with anyone else at your church? Perhaps you should take this up at a membership meeting.

[Kalypso]

Joe, I am glad I stumbled across your thread here. (I'm new too and having a bit of a time finding threads to participate in). I've noticed that as well. You stated your position much more eloquently than I ever could- but I agree with you, on some levels. I am what many would call a fundamentalist- or fundy (why is that considered bad?) however I am not a conservative or Republican. I consider myself more of a moderate. There are issues where I might go to either extreme- conservative or liberal- but I don't claim to be one over the other.

I believe we should be praying for all people everywhere- even those who do things against God. Because I believe that praying for another is one of the best ways to express your love- and we are commanded to love everyone. I think a lot of the politics come of as being hateful in that they are quick to condemn the "other" to show their moral uprightness. And while I might tend to agree with the morals and convictions of the group- I find that a superiority complex becomes quite prevalent and allows for some people's pride to cloud their vision and prevent them from truly expressing love. (No, I don't mean that telling someone is in sin is not showing love- because if you can't help someone out of their sin in a small way- how can we help them in a bigger way?).

I also see many of these discussions lead to a debate over the salvation of another based merely on their politics. And while sometimes one's politics certainly makes me question their motivations for choosing things- it saddens me greatly that people start playing God Almighty. (I hope none of you think I am pointing the finger- I certainly havent been around here long enough to see any of this here, but I am speaking about my experiences in person). I just feel that so many are pessimistic and focusing on the negative things in life. And that is distracting us from what our real focus should be- Christ.

I guess I don't know what I am really saying here. Just felt like venting about how it saddens me to see Christians attacking their brothers and sisters because of something so petty as their political inclinations.

[joe_mikol]

I'd very much like to reply to your posts, but I've currently contracted a fever and coherent thought is difficult. Give me another day and I should be able to sit and chat again. Thanks.

In Christ,

Joe

P.S. It's comforting, from what I read, that the churches in my area that I've visited (I've visited several that preach politics) are not a majority of the Christian Body. Simply coming here and being able to discuss issues politely with fellow believers is a huge boost of confidence in the power of the Body of Christ.