Are "shadows" a BAD thing?

[TrustAndObey]

I asked this in my denomination's forum, but I think everyone is out mowing or something. I hear crickets in there and I can't see who is in there anymore, which drives me crazy.

But I'd like to ask this here as well becaue I love my Messianic brothers and sisters!!

I won't debate...I'm just curious as to your view of this subject:

I've been looking up all the verses in scripture that talk about shadows and in context, they appear to be a GOOD thing...an important thing.

Even the shadow of death is an important realization that we all have to look at. Mortality...and the need for a Savior.

In Hebrews 10 it talks about the shadow of sacrifices, and how they were shadows of good things to come (Christ). They were definitely a shadow, but necessary to God for atonement of sins before Christ. Being a shadow didn't keep the people from having to do them, right?

Colossians 2 talks about shadows that are of things to come and it was written AFTER the cross. Good things to come=second coming, heaven?

I'm not seeing where shadows are a bad thing like they always seem to get labeled.

David said....Psa 63:7 Because Thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of Thy wings will I rejoice.

If you see a shadow of a mountain, do you have to see the mountain itself to know it's there? No. Do you still want to see the mountain itself? Yes.

I'm just not seeing where shadows are a "bad" thing in scripture. I think they are intended to keep us going in the right direction....toward the mountain.

??

[visionary]

I think of shadows like

when I have my back turned and there is someone coming up behind me, and the first hint that I have of his presence is the shadow. It is a forewarning of what is to come. It is the example of the real.

another time when shadows play a part, is when you take your hands and make them into shapes that reflect into objects or animals on the wall by the shadows. So I find that the story told by the shadows in the feasts, give me a story that will soon be reflected here in the end times. The fall feasts especially the Day of Atonement has a great story being told, and right now all we have is the shadow story to go by.

Shadows can always be found on the other side of you. Light on one side and the shadow on the other side. Don't know if I can see the spiritual significance of that one though.

[TrustAndObey]

Thanks Visionary. I want you to know that nobody in my forum has answered this question yet.

I'm starting to think I have bad breath!!

I agree with what you've said....there's light on the other side of a shadow!!

[A_Pioneer]

Shadow, the word in Hebrew is the same root word for photo, the two NT renderings are Yeshua is a photo of what is to come.

:thumbsup:

[Lulav]

I asked this in my denomination's forum, but I think everyone is out mowing or something. I hear crickets in there and I can't see who is in there anymore, which drives me crazy.

But I'd like to ask this here as well becaue I love my Messianic brothers and sisters!!

I won't debate...I'm just curious as to your view of this subject:

I've been looking up all the verses in scripture that talk about shadows and in context, they appear to be a GOOD thing...an important thing.

Even the shadow of death is an important realization that we all have to look at. Mortality...and the need for a Savior.

In Hebrews 10 it talks about the shadow of sacrifices, and how they were shadows of good things to come (Christ). They were definitely a shadow, but necessary to God for atonement of sins before Christ. Being a shadow didn't keep the people from having to do them, right?

Colossians 2 talks about shadows that are of things to come and it was written AFTER the cross. Good things to come=second coming, heaven?

I'm not seeing where shadows are a bad thing like they always seem to get labeled.

David said....Psa 63:7 Because Thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of Thy wings will I rejoice.

If you see a shadow of a mountain, do you have to see the mountain itself to know it's there? No. Do you still want to see the mountain itself? Yes.

I'm just not seeing where shadows are a "bad" thing in scripture. I think they are intended to keep us going in the right direction....toward the mountain.

?? I hate not being able to see anyone too, not even a shadow! :D

before I can attempt to answer your ? I need to know where you were told that they are bad? I have never heard that before. To me they were a 'coming good event publicity' type thing that gave people to look forward to the great things G-d would do. :clap:

[TrustAndObey]

I hate not being able to see anyone too, not even a shadow! :D

Yeah, lol, if you could see their shadows at least, it wouldn't feel so lonely! There's times I'll post something and within seconds there's two replies. Other times...not so much.

before I can attempt to answer your ? I need to know where you were told that they are bad? I have never heard that before. To me they were a 'coming good event publicity' type thing that gave people to look forward to the great things G-d would do. :clap:

When I debated in GT, I was always told that a shadow was a bad thing.

Well, for instance, in Colossians 2...it's written AFTER the cross ("Which ARE a shadow of things to come")..."are" in that verse is present tense...after the cross....but people insist that "are" was added by the translators, which isn't true. Or they say Paul meant before the cross...etc etc.

So...having it pointed out to me that ARE and "to come" are present tense after the cross, makes me rethink some things about the feasts, which Visionary is helping me with (God bless you again sister!).

Go in GT and mention a shadow and then duck...it gets scary.

[Wags]

The short answer: No shadows are not bad!

In our present state we are unable to see the full glory of the Most High, but we are able to see the shadows. The shadows let us know what is coming in the future. They remind us to stay awake and watchful.

[cyberlizard]

are shadows a bad thing, shadows in the sense of copies.....i do not think so...

here's why....

imagine someone told you you could go to a theme park (ok so its a bit crude)... and the theme park was an exact representation of the white house down to all the staff doing their jobs and performing their duties. You could get to see over their shoulders and see the important things about which they were writing. or the theme park was a copy of buckingham palace and you always wanted to know how royalty lived, or for the paranoid, there was a theme park that contained everything held at the groom lake facility (aka - area51) (complete with the aliens and spaceships from independence day) - some would love to go there....

well that is what the temple and its services were, they were a copy (in every detail) of what was going on in heaven. Now if a person was offered the chance to see what goes on in heaven, they wuld jump and the chance. That is also what the Torah is, it is a reflection of a higher power, The Power, given by angels and as such even a shadow is awesome in majesty, and the good thing is, the Torah was not given to angels but to men.

So no, shadows are good, they are only bad if you're into the greeko-platonic system of seeing things, i.e. shadows bad, reality good, physical bad, spiritual good, old covenant bad, new covenant good.... if you see my drift. Thank goodness for Hebrews 12, if the Sinai was scary and dangerous how much more the work of Christ (scary and dangerous).

Steve

[TrustAndObey]

I think the reason some people think of them as a "bad" thing is because in Colossians 2 it looks like, in verse 17, that the things listed in 2:16 were a shadow of the FIRST coming.

The fact is Colossians was written after the cross and "are" and "come" are present tense, so the shadow cannot be of the FIRST coming.

If you read on it talks about the church, but people do not want to believe that's what those verses are referring to.

[johnd]

I think the differences are in shadows and foreshadowing.

The shadows are the mysterious dark areas usually best avoided. The foreshadowing can be either good or bad to be taken as signs of things to come. The ultimate determination of which is the advent itself.

[johnd]

I mean, even the day of the Lord is foretold as that great and terrible day.

[ozell]

after the shadow comes the revealing

Rv 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

[visionary]

after the shadow comes the revealing

Rv 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:After the revealing comes the understanding... and after the understanding (that is where the two witnesses become valuable) comes the reality. After all what good is revealing something that no one truly understands, and thus all fail to grasp what just came to pass.

Jer 42:4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said unto them, I have heard you; behold, I will pray unto the LORD your God according to your words; and it shall come to pass, that whatsoever thing the LORD shall answer you, I will declare it unto you; I will keep nothing back from you.

[Lulav]

I mean, even the day of the Lord is foretold as that great and terrible day.
that does not mean 'not good', the translations are weak in this redition.

. G-d himself calls himself 'terrible' in Deut, but is he bad? No, This word today would better be translated as 'Awesome', and also it depends on which side you are on on this day, how you perceive what that word really means. :)

[Lulav]

Yeah, lol, if you could see their shadows at least, it wouldn't feel so lonely! There's times I'll post something and within seconds there's two replies. Other times...not so much.



When I debated in GT, I was always told that a shadow was a bad thing.

Well, for instance, in Colossians 2...it's written AFTER the cross ("Which ARE a shadow of things to come")..."are" in that verse is present tense...after the cross....but people insist that "are" was added by the translators, which isn't true. Or they say Paul meant before the cross...etc etc.

So...having it pointed out to me that ARE and "to come" are present tense after the cross, makes me rethink some things about the feasts, which Visionary is helping me with (God bless you again sister!).

Go in GT and mention a shadow and then duck...it gets scary.


the word translated as shadow in the 'OT" could well mean in time , like a shadow that passes across a sundial, our time on earth can be measured like that, it doesn't mean anything bad.

Now when we go to the NT we see things like this in Matt:

12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias ( Isaiah) the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

It is very hard to follow because for some reason they insist on using a different translation for the same name when coming from Hebrew or Greek, it leads to confusion, even the children of Israels names are spelled differently and if you don't know better you either don't know who they are talking about or think it's someone new.

Anyway, Esaias is Isaiah and Zabulon is Zebulun, and Nephthalim is Naphtali, and he is speaking of territory given to these sons of Jacob when they came into the land of Canaan. Their territory was in the north, around the Galilee, and was basically taken over by Gentiles before the time of Yeshua. The shadow of death spoken of here is believed to be related to what the Romans had built in that area. The great light and the light that sprung up are both referring to Yeshua. He is the great light to the gentiles and also the light that sprung up because he grew up in that area, in Nazareth.

It is found in Isaiah, 9:2

Now your question was about this:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. These holy days Paul speaks of are what is found in the torah, it has nothing to do with what the church came up with.

Some of those were shadows and have been fulfilled or some believe partially fulfilled and others are yet to be................ These would be the seven feasts of the L-RD, starting with passover.

Will continue later, gotta cut my husbands hair. :)

[Lulav]

It took me longer with his hair because it was full of static for some reason, and now my back is in a spasm, so I will elaborate more on this tomorrow for you, but suffice it now to say that each feast has not just one fulfillment as many Christians teach, but they are multi-dimetional if you can grasp that, it's hard to explain. Some say that the spring feasts are totally fulfilled and only the fall ones remain, but I think differently and if you can , you can maybe understand why Paul worded what he said the way he did.

:wave:

[ozell]

After the revealing comes the understanding... and after the understanding (that is where the two witnesses become valuable) comes the reality. After all what good is revealing something that no one truly understands, and thus all fail to grasp what just came to pass.

Jer 42:4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said unto them, I have heard you; behold, I will pray unto the LORD your God according to your words; and it shall come to pass, that whatsoever thing the LORD shall answer you, I will declare it unto you; I will keep nothing back from you.


Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.


Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.


Ps 107:43 Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD.

16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Moses a shadow
Joseph a shadow
David a shadow
John the baptist a shadow

of things to come

Jesus

[visionary]

Moed is the Hebrew word for "appointed time." It is often translated as "festival," but the actually meaning is "appointment." Passover and The Feast of Unleavened Bread are moedim, "appointed times." They are the LORD's appointed times for doing business with man. The idea of Passover as an "appointed time" is expressed by the words of Yeshua as he prepares to meet his own appointed time in Jerusalem. In Mathew 26:17,18, Yeshua calls Passover "my appointed time." In saying this, the Master has identified the appointed time of the Festival of Unleavened Bread as his appointed time.

Paul concurs. Paul identifies all of the Biblical Festivals as the Appointments of the Messiah. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul gives the festivals, new moons and Sabbaths (as well as other aspects of Torah observance) an eschatological value, shadows of things to come. The appointed times, Paul says, are a shadow of things to come. He further adds that their very substance is Messianic in nature.

Paul's messianic and eschatological interpretations of the festivals were not novel. Jewish tradition has always taught that the redemption from Egypt foreshadowed the great and final redemption brought about through the Messiah. Jewish commentators and haggadists regarded Moses as a type of the Messiah that is coming. The Passover Seder meal is rife with Messianic allusion and eschatological expectations, even to the point of setting a chair at the table for Elijah, the heralder of the Messiah.

In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul adjured the gentile believers to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the basis that "Messiah our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7). It is a passing statement in a larger context. Paul does not feel the need to explain or defend his words, because his interpretation of Messiah as Passover Lamb was certainly not his own. Clearly, the First Century believers regarded the Passover sacrifice of a lamb as finding a type of Messianic satisfaction in the death of the Master. Judaism has always expected the Messiah to bring the great salvation at the appointed time of Passover.

Which today we are going to celebrate as a memorial for what He has done.

[visionary]

Appointment in Jerusalem

Yeshua knew that the Feast of Unleavened Bread was his appointed time. It was therefore necessary, if he was to meet the appointment, that he go up to the appointed place. Jerusalem is the city of God's Temple. It is the place God chose to put His Name. Jerusalem is the appointed place.

Preparations for the appointed time of Passover and Unleavened Bread began well in advance of the actual festival. This was especially so in Jerusalem. The city needed to prepare for a massive influx of pilgrims. Six weeks prior to the festivals the roads were repaired, wells dug, ritual baths prepared, graves whitewashed, and a host of other details that needed to be attended to. Within the city itself, special ovens for roasting the thousands and thousands of Passover lambs had to be erected. Accommodations and lodgings for the pilgrims needed to be made ready. The city was turned upside down!

As the pilgrims approached the city, their multitudes converged until their throngs filled the roads into Jerusalem. Their voices rose together singing the psalms of ascent as they went up to Jerusalem to keep the appointed time in the appointed place.

It is within this context that we must see the Master and his disciples approaching Jerusalem. They are one group with in a multitude of many groups.

[visionary]

Choosing the Lamb

In First Century Judaism, Messianic expectations were running at an all time high. This expectation was only heightened at Passover. In the celebration of Passover, the Festival of Redemption, the people had an eschatological hope. It was believed that the Ultimate Redemption, which was to be brought about through the Messiah, would take place at Passover. Messiah is to be a second Moses who will lead Israel out from under the bondage of the nations.

Word about the Master had spread. The people were wondering if he might not be the Messiah after all. "So they were seeking for Yeshua, and were saying to one another as they stood in the temple, "What do you think; that He will not come to the feast at all?"" (John 11:55) As the Master and his disciples came down the Mount of Olives in their approach to Jerusalem, the crowd of pilgrims realized who it was traveling in their midst. The throngs of pilgrims streaming into Jerusalem became a multitude throwing down their coats and branches to spread a path for Yeshua as he entered the city.

In Exodus chapter 12, the Torah gives the instructions for the celebration of Passover. The children of Israel were to choose a lamb for the Pesach sacrifice on the 10th day of the 1st month, 4 days before the actual slaughtering was to be done. According to John's chronology, it is the 10th day of the 1st month as Yeshua enters Jerusalem, and the people make their choice.

By their shouts, they herald him to be the long awaited Messiah. They are shouting: "Save us, I pray! Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD! Blessed is the Kingdom that comes! Our father David! Save us from the highest. Save us son of David! Blessed is the King that comes in the Name of the LORD, even the King of Israel!" With these acclamations the people have made it clear; they have reached a decision; they have made a choice; they have chosen the Messiah. By mass acclamation Yeshua is designated the Messiah. Unwittingly, the crowds have chosen their Passover lamb on the day the lambs were to be chosen.

[visionary]

Checking for Blemish

The Torah further instructs that the lamb must be checked for blemishes. Only a perfect, spotless and unblemished lamb would suffice for the Passover.

In the Gospels, Yeshua goes to the Temple to teach. While there, he is approached by the Pharisees, the Sadducees, Herodians and the Teachers of Torah. Each various group poses difficult questions, trying to trap him in his words. Essentially, they are looking for any blemish, theological, halachic, or otherwise, which might disqualify him as Messiah. Matthew 22 preserves the narrative of these tests. He meets each question soundly, and no one can find fault with him. He is without blemish.

[visionary]

Casting Out Leaven

The Torah further instructs that before the Festival begins, all leaven must be cast out of the homes of the Israelites. To this very day, this regulation is observed with rigor. Before the day of Passover, the observant family spends weeks cleaning house. Every trace of leaven is removed. Breadcrumbs under the refrigerator are sought out and eliminated. Coat pockets are emptied out. Couch cushions overturned and vacuumed. Cupboards are emptied and cleaned. Anything defined as leaven is removed from the house.

It is during these days of casting out the leaven that Yeshua enters the Temple and casts out the moneychangers. In so doing the Master kept the command of cleansing the home by cleansing his Father's house.

[visionary]

Passover Eve

The Biblical day begins at sunset. If we follow John's chronology, Yeshua and his disciples were settling into the upper room for his Last Seder as the Jerusalem sunset marked the beginning of the 14th day of the first month. In Exodus 12, the Israelites are commanded to kill the Passover Lamb on the 14th day of the 1st month. That meant that the following afternoon the Passover lambs were to be slaughtered in the Temple. This being so, Yeshua's celebration of the Seder is a day early. He hosts his Last Seder a day early so that he and his disciples can have one last Seder together. When the proper time for the Seder arrives the following evening, Yeshua will already be buried.

[visionary]

Time of Slaughter

A short time later, Yeshua is hung on the cross. It is the third hour, 9:00 AM by our reckoning when he is crucified (Mark 15:25).

On that day the Temple was crowded with pilgrims bringing up their lambs for the Passover slaughter. All the priesthood of Israel was also at the Temple for this festival. Because of the great number of lambs to be slaughtered, the afternoon continual offering was performed early.

The Mishnah reports to us, "The daily burnt offering (afternoon) was slaughtered at the 8th hour and a half (2:30) and offered up at the ninth hour and a half (3:30), but on the eve of Pesach it was slaughtered at the seventh hour and a half (1:30) and offered up at the eighth hour and a half (2:30)." (Pesachim 5:1) Thus the slaughter of the Passover Lamb was performed during the ninth hour.

The lambs were killed and their blood applied to the altar in an old-fashioned fire line style. Lines of priests stood ready with gold and silver basins for passing the blood to the altar. Again we turn to the Mishnah for the details.

"An Israelite slaughters the Passover Lamb and a priest received the blood, hands it to his fellow, and his fellow to his fellow, each one receiving a full basin and handing back an empty one. The priest nearest the altar tosses the blood in a single act." (Pesachim 5:6) The Passover lambs were killed in three consecutive waves. While the slaughter was being performed, the Levites in the Temple chanted the Psalms 113-118, the same Hallel which Yeshua and his disciples would have sung the night before (Pesachim 5:1-7).

[visionary]

The Death of the Lamb

When the 9th hour arrived, a long blast of the shofar signaled the Levites began their chanting of the Hallel (Psalms 113-118). The gates to the inner court were opened, and the first crowd of Israelites with their lambs ready rushed in. Within minutes, the clean and spotless courtyard around the altar was stained red with blood. Gutters flowed with red. The base of the altar seemed to bleed, even gush forth as basin after basin of blood was splashed against it in quick succession.

The dead lambs were hung on hooks, forearms spread in a crucifixion pose as they were skinned and prepared for roasting.

The Levites continued chanting the Hallel. The sound of their voices, joined by the voices of the thousands of Pilgrims who had gathered at the Temple, filled the entire city of Jerusalem. Indeed, they were heard outside the walls, a short distance away, where Yeshua had then been hanging on the cross for six hours. As they chanted, "The cords of death entangled me . . . precious in the Sight of the L-RD is the Death for his Righteous Ones . . . Open for me the Gates of Righteousness . . . The stone the builder's rejected has become the capstone," Yeshua died. It was the 9th hour, the very hour at which the Passover lambs were being slain in the temple. Yeshua, the lamb, died.

This is the story of the Exodus and the Passover lamb of Egypt. Paul tells us that Messiah our Pesach has been sacrificed. It is by his blood, applied to the doorposts of our lives that we are spared the fate of the Egyptian firstborn. By his blood, applied to our lives, the last judgment passes over us.
http://www.rabbiyeshua.com/articles/2001/pesach.html

[Lulav]

Appointment in Jerusalem

Yeshua knew that the Feast of Unleavened Bread was his appointed time. It was therefore necessary, if he was to meet the appointment, that he go up to the appointed place. Jerusalem is the city of God's Temple. It is the place God chose to put His Name. Jerusalem is the appointed place.

Preparations for the appointed time of Passover and Unleavened Bread began well in advance of the actual festival. This was especially so in Jerusalem. The city needed to prepare for a massive influx of pilgrims. Six weeks prior to the festivals the roads were repaired, wells dug, ritual baths prepared, graves whitewashed, and a host of other details that needed to be attended to. Within the city itself, special ovens for roasting the thousands and thousands of Passover lambs had to be erected. Accommodations and lodgings for the pilgrims needed to be made ready. The city was turned upside down!

As the pilgrims approached the city, their multitudes converged until their throngs filled the roads into Jerusalem. Their voices rose together singing the psalms of ascent as they went up to Jerusalem to keep the appointed time in the appointed place.

It is within this context that we must see the Master and his disciples approaching Jerusalem. They are one group with in a multitude of many groups.
I am not sure why you keep saying that unleavened bread was his appointed time. He was crucified on Passover and died about the time the lambs were being slaughtered in the temple. He was buried as unleavened bread was coming in. Passover was his appointed time. It even says so at the site you are quoting from:

I think this is confusing:

The idea of Passover as an "appointed time" is expressed by the words of Yeshua as he prepares to meet his own appointed time in Jerusalem. In Mathew 26:17,18, Yeshua calls Passover "my appointed time." In saying this, the Master has identified the appointed time of the Festival of Unleavened Bread as his appointed time. They aren't one and the same, especially today they are lumped together, but shouldn't be if we are to understand the meaning behind each. Don't you think?

[visionary]

Yeshua is our unleaven bread broken for us. He is our Passover lamb sacrificed for us. He is the substance of the shadows found in the feasts.

[Lulav]

I understand that, I was just trying to make a distingtion. But now reading what you wrote, lets discuss those time worn words.

This is my body which was broken for you, do this in remembrance of me.

Yet,

34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the L-RD delivereth him out of them all. 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

19:33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:9:34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 19:35And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 19:36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

[Lulav]

Paul giving the 'communion' instructions

11:24And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) when he had given thanks (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2168&version=kjv), he brake (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2806&version=kjv) it, and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2036&version=kjv), Take (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2983&version=kjv), eat (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5315&version=kjv): this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=kjv) my (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3450&version=kjv) body, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4983&version=kjv) which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) is broken (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2806&version=kjv) for (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5228&version=kjv) you: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5216&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) do (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv) remembrance (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=364&version=kjv) of me. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1699&version=kjv) 11:25After the same manner (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5615&version=kjv) also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) he took the cup, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4221&version=kjv) when (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3326&version=kjv) he had supped (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1172&version=kjv), saying (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=kjv), This (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) cup (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4221&version=kjv) is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=kjv) the new (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2537&version=kjv) testament (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1242&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) my (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1699&version=kjv) blood: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=129&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) do ye (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv), as oft as (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=302&version=kjv) ye (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3740&version=kjv) drink (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4095&version=kjv) it, in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv) remembrance (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=364&version=kjv) of me. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1699&version=kjv) Only the words in blue have greek counterparts. Notice there is nothing for the common word added as 'oft' or often.


11:26For (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1063&version=kjv) as often as (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3740&version=kjv) ye (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=302&version=kjv) eat (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2068&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5126&version=kjv) bread, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=740&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) drink (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4095&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) cup, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4221&version=kjv) ye do shew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2605&version=kjv) the Lord's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2962&version=kjv) death (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2288&version=kjv) till (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=302&version=kjv) he (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=kjv) come (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2064&version=kjv).Again we see that the word 'often' is added. But it can be seen by this is showing the L-RD's death, which can only be on one day, at one specific time, meaning Passover when the lambs were killed, that this holds up.

[visionary]

Bones are not broken... scripture is not broken.. Body is pierced and in death broken that we may live.

[Lulav]

John -----brake of bread-----kleo

John brake bones ----Katagnumi

Not the same thing, yet the same word is translated into English. Very confusing if you ask me!

And where did Yeshua say this?

1Co 11:24 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+11:24&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) when he had given thanks (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2168&version=kjv), he brake (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2806&version=kjv) it, and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2036&version=kjv), Take (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2983&version=kjv), eat (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5315&version=kjv): this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=kjv) my (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3450&version=kjv) body, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4983&version=kjv) which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) is broken (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2806&version=kjv) for (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5228&version=kjv) you: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5216&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) do (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv) remembrance (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=364&version=kjv) of me. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1699&version=kjv) Only in Luke who traveled with Paul and wrote about what he did.

Lu 22:19 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=lu+22:19&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) he took (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2983&version=kjv) bread, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=740&version=kjv) and gave thanks (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2168&version=kjv), and brake (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2806&version=kjv) it, and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) gave (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1325&version=kjv) unto them, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) saying (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=kjv), This (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=kjv) my (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3450&version=kjv) body (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4983&version=kjv) which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) is given (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1325&version=kjv) for (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5228&version=kjv) you: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5216&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5124&version=kjv) do (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv) in remembrance (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=364&version=kjv) of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv) me. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1699&version=kjv) But notice that what Paul said was NOT what Luke said Yeshua said. There is one word changed.

Luke says 'given' and Paul says 'broken'


Given= didomi- to give to someone, to bestow a gift to someone

Broken= Klao, used of breaking bread

I wonder why the difference in words and why neither John, Matthew or Mark says anything like this?

this is what matthew says:
26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Just this is my body, not that it was given or broken, or to do it in remembrance.

Mark says:
14:22And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Again, Just this is my body, not that it was given or broken, or to do it in remembrance.

John doesn't even mention it.

[visionary]

So Paul being a Pharisee, sees more in the Passover body sacrifice... aka broken.. than Luke a physician? What theological reason would he do that for? Isn't there some OT scripture to support this understanding.

Jer 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.

Jer 48:17 All ye that are about him, bemoan him; and all ye that know his name, say, How is the strong staff broken, and the beautiful rod!