Seventh Day Adventist need to understand this...

[k4c]

Part one of three...

What did the covenant made at Mt. Sinai consist of?

Many people have been tricked into believing that the covenant made at Mt Sinai did not consist of the Ten Commandments. They say that when Jesus said He did away with the Old Covenant so that He might usher in the new it didn't include the Ten Commandments. But according to the word of God, the covenant given at Mt. Sinai included not only the ten commandments but much much more.

Lets read what God says His covenant, which was made at Mt. Sinai, consisted of.

Exodus 20 AND GOD spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you. "You shall not kill. "You shall not commit adultery. "You shall not steal. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."

Most people stop right here as though the Ten Commandments were not part of the covenant made at Mt. Sinai but it doesn’t stop here. God was not finished setting the terms of the covenant but the people were afraid so Moses had to communicate the rest of the covenant to the people. Lets continue reading and see how much more is contained within the covenant made at Mt.Sinai.

Exodus 20 Now when all the people perceived the thunderings and the lightnings and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled; and they stood afar off, and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die." And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to prove you, and that the fear of him may be before your eyes, that you may not sin." And the people stood afar off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was. And the Lord said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: 'You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven. You shall not make gods of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold. An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you. And if you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones; for if you wield your tool upon it you profane it. And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it.'

[k4c]

Part two of three...

Exodus 21 "NOW THESE are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life. "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt faithlessly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. "Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him treacherously, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die. "Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death. "Whoever steals a man, whether he sells him or is found in possession of him, shall be put to death. "Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death. "When men quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist and the man does not die but keeps his bed, then if the man rises again and walks abroad with his staff, he that struck him shall be clear; only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall have him thoroughly healed. "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money. "When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. "When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free for the eye's sake. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free for the tooth's sake. "When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be clear. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is laid on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is laid upon him. If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. "When a man leaves a pit open, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or an ass falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make it good; he shall give money to its owner, and the dead beast shall be his. "When one man's ox hurts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and divide the price of it; and the dead beast also they shall divide. Or if it is known that the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has not kept it in, he shall pay ox for ox, and the dead beast shall be his.

Exodus 22 "IF A man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall pay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. He shall make restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. If the stolen beast is found alive in his possession, whether it is an ox or an ass or a sheep, he shall pay double. "If a thief is found breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him; but if the sun has risen upon him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. "When a man causes a field or vineyard to be grazed over, or lets his beast loose and it feeds in another man's field, he shall make restitution from the best in his own field and in his own vineyard. "When fire breaks out and catches in thorns so that the stacked grain or the standing grain or the field is consumed, he that kindled the fire shall make full restitution. "If a man delivers to his neighbor money or goods to keep, and it is stolen out of the man's house, then, if the thief is found, he shall pay double. If the thief is not found, the owner of the house shall come near to God, to show whether or not he has put his hand to his neighbor's goods. "For every breach of trust, whether it is for ox, for ass, for sheep, for clothing, or for any kind of lost thing, of which one says, 'This is it,' the case of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double to his neighbor. "If a man delivers to his neighbor an ass or an ox or a sheep or any beast to keep, and it dies or is hurt or is driven away, without any one seeing it, an oath by the Lord shall be between them both to see whether he has not put his hand to his neighbor's property; and the owner shall accept the oath, and he shall not make restitution. But if it is stolen from him, he shall make restitution to its owner. If it is torn by beasts, let him bring it as evidence; he shall not make restitution for what has been torn. "If a man borrows anything of his neighbor, and it is hurt or dies, the owner not being with it, he shall make full restitution. If the owner was with it, he shall not make restitution; if it was hired, it came for its hire. "If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall give the marriage present for her, and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equivalent to the marriage present for virgins. "You shall not permit a sorceress to live. "Whoever lies with a beast shall be put to death. "Whoever sacrifices to any god, save to the Lord only, shall be utterly destroyed. "You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. If you do afflict them, and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry; and my wrath will burn, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless. "If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be to him as a creditor, and you shall not exact interest from him. If ever you take your neighbor's garment in pledge, you shall restore it to him before the sun goes down; for that is his only covering, it is his mantle for his body; in what else shall he sleep? And if he cries to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate. "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people. "You shall not delay to offer from the fulness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. "The first-born of your sons you shall give to me. You shall do likewise with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its dam; on the eighth day you shall give it to me. "You shall be men consecrated to me; therefore you shall not eat any flesh that is torn by beasts in the field; you shall cast it to the dogs.

Exodus 23 "YOU SHALL not utter a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man, to be a malicious witness. You shall not follow a multitude to do evil; nor shall you bear witness in a suit, turning aside after a multitude, so as to pervert justice; nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his suit. "If you meet your enemy's ox or his ass going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the ass of one who hates you lying under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it, you shall help him to lift it up. "You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his suit. Keep far from a false charge, and do not slay the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked. And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the officials, and subverts the cause of those who are in the right. "You shall not oppress a stranger; you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. "For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild beasts may eat. You shall do likewise with your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. "Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your ass may have rest, and the son of your bondmaid, and the alien, may be refreshed. Take heed to all that I have said to you; and make no mention of the names of other gods, nor let such be heard out of your mouth. "Three times in the year you shall keep a feast to me. You shall keep the feast of unleavened bread; as I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed. You shall keep the feast of harvest, of the first fruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the feast of ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor. Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord God. "You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread, or let the fat of my feast remain until the morning. "The first of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of the Lord your God. "You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk. "Behold, I send an angel before you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place which I have prepared. Give heed to him and hearken to his voice, do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him. "But if you hearken attentively to his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "When my angel goes before you, and brings you in to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out, you shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works, but you shall utterly overthrow them and break their pillars in pieces. You shall serve the Lord your God, and I will bless your bread and your water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you. None shall cast her young or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. I will send my terror before you, and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out Hivite, Canaanite, and Hittite from before you. I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the wild beasts multiply against you. Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you are increased and possess the land. And I will set your bounds from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them or with their gods. They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you."

[k4c]

Part three of three...

Exodus 24 AND HE said to Moses, "Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship afar off. Moses alone shall come near to the Lord; but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him." Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, "All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do." And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. Then he took the book of the covenant, and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient." And Moses took the blood and threw it upon the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words."

All this, which you have just read, is the covenant made at Mt. Sinai. It did not end with the Ten Commandments, they were only the beginning but the people could not hear any longer because they were afraid.

We know that the covenant at Mt. Sinai contained all this as one covenant because of several reasons.

One, Moses read the whole covenant to the people and they agreed to obey all of it, not just the Ten Commandments.

Two, Moses sealed the whole covenant with blood, not just the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 24:6-8 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.'' And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold, the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.''

Listen to what Hebrews says about sealing the covenants with blood.

Hebrews 9:15-21 And for this reason Jesus is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.'' Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.

With this we can understand that the whole covenant made at Mt. Sinai consisted of all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances and all the words which Moses wrote. The Old Covenant contained all that God had spoken.

All this must be done away with as the covenant made at Mt. Sinai because it’s a package deal sealed with blood. You can’t just throw out the last part of the covenant and keep the first part, its one whole covenant of law and ordinances.

Its these laws and ordinances that Jesus did away with through His death in order that He might establish a new covenant.

Ephesians 2:15 By abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

If you desire to keep one part of the old covenant, you must keep the whole covenant for the same God has said "You shall not commit adultery" also says "You shall not kill" and in the same covenant He says "You must not show partiality".

People who quote James 2:9 use it to say that the Ten Commandments are still binding but they are leaving out the first part of the verse, which is a very important part of the verse because it identifies the fact that the whole covenant is being referred to, not just ten commandments. If you read the first part of the verse you will see that James is referring to the whole old covenant, not just ten commandments.

Lets read the whole thought of James.

James 2:9-11 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

To commit partiality is a violation of the covenant made at Mt. Sinai, not just the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 23:3 "You shall not show partiality to a poor man in his dispute.

We constantly hear Jesus quoting from the whole old covenant.

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'

Exodus 21:23-25 "But if any lasting harm follows, then you shall give life for life, "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, "burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Some people say that Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets and stop there. They try to make you think that Jesus did not do away with them. But the rest of the verse says, “but to fulfill them“, in other words, Jesus came to fulfill all that was spoken of Him throughout the Old Testament.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets because it was Jesus they were prophesying about.

Luke 24:44 Then Jesus said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.''

There is so much more I can cover but I will let you seek more golden nuggets of truth for yourself.

By reading this short and simple study we can see that if one desires to keep any part of the old covenant, one must keep the whole thing, not just part of it.

Jesus did away with the old, which was made at Mt. Sinai and set the stage for the new by the words which He spoke as the mediator of the new covenant. The New Covenant, like the Old Covenant, was sealed in blood.

Let us obey the words of Jesus for He is the foundation and corner stone of the new covenant.

[TrustAndObey]

k4c, please stop spamming and debating in our forum.

You've been told several times now that this entire forum is now a non-debate forum. Please respect that.

[k4c]

k4c, please stop spamming and debating in our forum.

You've been told several times now that this entire forum is now a non-debate forum. Please respect that.

I posted this in the dissussion and debate section. If you can't debate the truth at least stop pushing me around like a forum bully.

[TrustAndObey]

I posted this in the dissussion and debate section. If you can't debate the truth at least stop pushing me around like a forum bully.

I'm not trying to be a forum bully. Our debate section is only for the MEMBERS here (people that agree to the fundamental beliefs of the Adventist church) and for people wishing to JOIN the Adventist church.

I've tried to tell you this in other threads.

[k4c]

I'm not trying to be a forum bully. Our debate section is only for the MEMBERS here (people that agree to the fundamental beliefs of the Adventist church) and for people wishing to JOIN the Adventist church.

I've tried to tell you this in other threads.

I am a baptized member of the Seventh Day Adventist church... Besides, people that agree with all the fundamental beliefs of the Adventist church would have nothing to debate so why have a debate section?

[TrustAndObey]

I am a baptized member of the Seventh Day Adventist church...

A "member" defined on Christian Forums is someone that AGREES to the Statement of Faith of the church (in this case, the Seventh-day Adventist church). If you do not fit that description, then you are not considered a member of this forum.

So I didn't mean member of the CHURCH, I mean a member by CF definition for this forum.

[Shizzle]

You can change your icon in the "edit profile" section,

This is one golden nugget of truth, k4c makes for a nice read.

[TrustAndObey]

No, changing the icon will not work. If you argue against our doctrine then obviously you do not agree with it, and we already know that you don't.

Besides...wouldn't changing your icon to represent something that you're not...be bearing false witness?

You asked what we'd debate about...well, MVA and I debated about the police raid at a Mormon compound yesterday. We're going to disagree on some things in every day life, but we don't disagree on what our church teaches.

[TrustAndObey]

Shizzle, please do not encourage people to be dishonest in here.

[Shizzle]

An SDA is an SDA rather or not they agree with all of the official doctrines. Truth is truth rather or not a group of men declare it to be a lie, but you'll know it by its fruits.

[k4c]

k4c, please stop spamming and debating in our forum.

You've been told several times now that this entire forum is now a non-debate forum. Please respect that.

Why is it that you join in on other doctrinal debates on this forum but when I post a thread you have a problem with it? Is what I post too true to debate? Does the truth frustrate you? The truth is suppose to make us free.

[TrustAndObey]

Why is it that you join in on other doctrinal debates on this forum but when I post a thread you have a problem with it? Is what I post too true to debate? Does the truth frustrate you? The truth is suppose to make us free.

Because the debate in the Traditional Adventist forum here is limited to those that agree with the Statement of Faith of the Adventist church (that is not you), or those wishing to join the Adventist church (that is not you).

I fit the first definition and I'm allowed to debate here, with my fellow Traditional Adventists.

If I wish to go to other forums here on CF that allow debate, as long as I follow the rules, I can...and do.

I like debate.

You need to read these rules and see what CF considers a member: http://christianforums.com/t6899690

The insinuation that your posts are "too hard" to answer is getting old.

An SDA is an SDA rather or not they agree with all of the official doctrines. Truth is truth rather or not a group of men declare it to be a lie, but you'll know it by its fruits.

You're encouraging people to change their icon so they can debate in our forum.

You need to read this as well to see who CF (Christian Forums....where you're at) considers a member of a church's forum:

http://christianforums.com/t6899690 (http://christianforums.com/t6899690)

If you have a problem with THEIR guidelines, you need to take it up with an Administrator.

The other night you changed your icon while you were in our forum. I think that is probably the most dishonest thing I've ever seen happen here and now you're encouraging others to do it too?

Oh yes, you will know them by their fruits.

That's dishonesty.

[woobadooba]

Why is it that you join in on other doctrinal debates on this forum but when I post a thread you have a problem with it? Is what I post too true to debate? Does the truth frustrate you? The truth is suppose to make us free.

Why is it that you are being utterly disrespectful.

You were informed that your kind of debate is not welcome in here.

Is there some reason why you have to insist on having it your way, while disrespecting the members of this forum?

Is it a Christian thing to behave in such a manner?

[FreeinChrist]

An SDA is an SDA rather or not they agree with all of the official doctrines. Truth is truth rather or not a group of men declare it to be a lie, but you'll know it by its fruits.
However, for the Traditional Adventist forum, membrship is defined as agreeing with all 28 Fundamental beliefs. You argue against one of them, that will be addressed.

[k4c]

Why is it that you are being utterly disrespectful.

You were informed that your kind of debate is not welcome in here.

Is there some reason why you have to insist on having it your way, while disrespecting the members of this forum?

Is it a Christian thing to behave in such a manner?

I have not said one thing wrong in my post or unbiblical yet I am told to stay away. I have seen many post on this forum that speak against many of the things believed by SDAs yet the debate goes on. All I can say is...

Matthew 5:10-12 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. "Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

[TrustAndObey]

I don't recall too many verses about the prophets invading in people's personal space or repeating the same thing over and over and over again while they disrespected rules. ;)

[k4c]

I don't recall too many verses about the prophets invading in people's personal space or repeating the same thing over and over and over again while they disrespected rules. ;)

Jesus was crucified because He broke the rules and invaded, as you say it, personal space. I guess even today there is a time to kick the dust of the heels.

Just remember that Jesus put an end to the old so that you and I can have a new and living way to love God and neighbor.


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[woobadooba]

I have not said one thing wrong in my post or unbiblical yet I am told to stay away. I have seen many post on this forum that speak against many of the things believed by SDAs yet the debate goes on. All I can say is...

Matthew 5:10-12 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. "Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


I'm not telling you to get out. I'm just asking you to respect the rules of this forum and the members thereof. If people in here don't want to debate with you on these issues then why force yourself on them?

We've all been down this road too many times. We just don't want to debate these issues anymore, but would like to enjoy true fellowship.

Is that too much to ask?

Instead of telling us about what we should stop believing, why not focus more on things that address how we could all make a difference in the world by reaching out to the lost?

That's called discussion, not debate. Discussion is what we need in here. We've had enough of fruitless debates.

[k4c]

I'm not telling you to get out. I'm just asking you to respect the rules of this forum and the members thereof. If people in here don't want to debate with you on these issues then why force yourself on them?

We've all been down this road too many times. We just don't want to debate these issues anymore, but would like to enjoy true fellowship.

Is that too much to ask?

Instead of telling us about what we should stop believing, why not focus more on things that address how we could all make a difference in the world by reaching out to the lost?

That's called discussion, not debate. Discussion is what we need in here. We've had enough of fruitless debates.

This is a discussion and debate forum so if you don't want to debate then just don't click on the debate threads.

Reaching out to the lost does not mean putting them under the law, which only brings death and condemnation.

Reaching out to the lost means using the law lawfully to point out their need of the Savior and then pointing them to the Savior and His words of life.

1 Timothy 1:5-11 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Then help them to understand the hope seen in the promise, which will be an anchor to their soul. This what I have been doing on this forum.

Galatians 3:21-29 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

So I say, yes, lets join together and help others to understand these precious truths that bring life from death and freedom from bondage.

[capnator]

Jer 31:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jer&chapter=31&verse=33&version=kjv#33)But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

True true the old covenant is done away with and a new covenant is in place. Praise God we are saved by grace through faith... not of works lest any man should boast. You are right that if we want to live by the old covenant we should be living by the whole covenant. The law of God was a part of the old covenant BUT it is also a part of the new covenant... The covenant does not equal the ten commandments, rather the people agreed in the old covenant to keep the commandments. Doing away with the covenant has nothing to do with the doing away with the ten commandments!

A simple analogy would be a covenant involving a house... maybe the renting of one for 5 years. When the covenant expires you don't then say the house no longer exists? That house can be part of a new covenant!.... maybe even a new and better covenant.

In the new covenant the law is written on our hearts.. men and women KNOW that killing, murder, lying, stealing is wrong because the law is written on our hearts! The law doesn't save us! and the SDA church never ever claims that it does. The law is simply standard of right and wrong. The new covenant is not a licence to sin. The bible lets us know that sin is transgression of Gods law. The law is also the standard by which the wicked are judged, if there is no law then there are no wicked, and if you can't be wicked then what do you need to be saved from? Once saved by faith we obey God out of love... WHY? Because Jesus has shown us that Greater love has no one than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John reapetedly states that to love God is to obey him and keep his commandments.

So I wholeheartedly agree with you that the old covenant is done away with and that we are under a new and better covenant ratified with the blood of our precious saviour. We follow the way of Abraham who believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness AMEN. but also notice something interesting Gen 26:5 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=26&v=5&t=KJV#5) Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham also like us was saved by faith and kept the commandments of God. Rev 14:12 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=12&t=KJV#12)Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The only conceivable reason for trying to attack the Ten commandments is to dodge a commandment you don't want to keep which is most likely (but not necessarily) the Sabbath. Nearly all christians will be quite happy to point at the law when it comes to the other nine... The thing that amazes me k4c is that there are numerous different angles in which this is attempted from but it all boils down to the same thing in the end you find that Sabbatarians keep 10 commandments wheras the rest of christendom keep 9.. or if you get a bit more whacky maybe only 8 or 7 :P Why bother trying to come up with tricky theolgy to make it look justified? Just acknowledge that you only follow 9 commandments and be happy with that.

The Catholics go about this in yet another way they just flat out arrogantly say We are above the bible and have the power to change it. At least they acknowledged what the bible says on this. In my opinion very wrong, but you have to admit it's got some logic to it.

[woobadooba]

No, it's not a debate forum for people who are not SDA.

In fact, the whole debate concept will likely be nullified as it really doesn't make sense anymore. There is no sense in SDAs debating with each other over doctrine. Discussion is what ought to be taking place , not arguments, or proselytizing which is what you are trying to do in here.

Now you need to respect the FSGs of this forum. If you can't do that then you need to leave. It's as simple as that.

We've had our fill already with these attacks. Please stop!

If we need your help we will let you know...

This is a discussion and debate forum so if you don't want to debate then just don't click on the debate threads.

[reddogs]

Everyone please read the new FSGs: Forum-specific guidelines for the Seventh-Day Adventist Forum (http://christianforums.com/t7138867-fsgs-forum-specific-guidelines-for-the-seventh-day-adventist-forum.html) before posting as they outline the new guidelines that everyone needs to follow.

[DarylFawcett]

Any future posts in this topic and any other topic will be under the scrutiny of the new FSGs.

[Shizzle]

The other night you changed your icon while you were in our forum.
I was sda when i joined the forum, and began to identify with another "denomination" more, but i didnt know i could change my icon until then.

Hes only trying to help, yall. When you love others and want them to grow, what you do in selflessness is good in God's sight.

[TrustAndObey]

I was sda when i joined the forum, and began to identify with another "denomination" more, but i didnt know i could change my icon until then.

Hes only trying to help, yall. When you love others and want them to grow, what you do in selflessness is good in God's sight.

I'd buy it if you hadn't told k4c to change his icon so he could debate in here.

I appreciate people trying to help, but it sure doesn't feel that way (there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything) and when someone tells you to stop and you don't respect that....adios!

Spamming a forum isn't helping.

There's a Holy Spirit out there that will save all of God's people from error.

[Jimlarmore]

I'd just like to say one thing. Whether or not the ten commandments are part of the new covenant is a much needed thing to discuss in our church today. I never was for separating the forums so I have mixed feelings about this. I don't like kicking anyone out of anywhere unless they obviously are flaming or being rude, or in some cases where folks are most likely demon possessed and we've had to deal with that too.

If we can't debate folks like kc4 here and we can't debate them on the progressive forum, where can we debate them? In the GT forum? Just curious.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[mva1985]

I'd just like to say one thing. Whether or not the ten commandments are part of the new covenant is a much needed thing to discuss in our church today. I never was for separating the forums so I have mixed feelings about this. I don't like kicking anyone out of anywhere unless they obviously are flaming or being rude, or in some cases where folks are most likely demon possessed and we've had to deal with that too.

If we can't debate folks like kc4 here and we can't debate them on the progressive forum, where can we debate them? In the GT forum? Just curious.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Jim,

I think you have made some good points.

[honorthesabbath]

Jim--to be honest, the way I see it, is that some of these folks are here to debate in the usual sense.

There is so much venom and hatred in their posts against any thing Adventist, that it makes it hard for me to read their posts.

Now if where people from other beliefs or athiests inquiring and yes, even debating the Adventist perspective, I have no problem with that.

But these guys are doing that, they are doing something that I feel is beyond normal debating. I can't say publicly how exactly I want to say it, but I'm sure you understand.

[capnator]

People obviously want to dialogue/debate with Adventists and certain points of doctrine so there should be a place for it. Needs to be a "questions by non-adventist" section in this forum.

[AndrewK788]

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking honest questions and debating them. Remember, debating is not arguing. When questions are posed in a way that is meant to lead to an argument, simply disprove doctrine and not debate it, or simply sarcastic, that is when it crosses the line in my opinion. Differences in opinion are not the problem...antagonistic attitudes are.

[PROPHECYKID]

I think that people like K4c are put at a disadvantage. Once a strong debater for the law he is now a strong debater against the law. He chose to come here among his folks and debate about it first. Unfortunately, the forum rules don't really allow that. So if he wants to debate with the rest of us in here he can't because of forum rules. I personally do not think that that is fair. Cause i would still like to debate him. But i can't in here. And its going to be harder in GT. But i guess that is the only alternative it seems.

So i have a questions. If one day I begin to find fault with one of the fundamental beliefs i can't debate about it here with you guys? I can only discuss it? Where do we draw the line between a debate and a discussion.

A debate can be defined as, "A discussion involving two or more opposing sides of an issue."

[TrustAndObey]

I think that people like K4c are put at a disadvantage. One a strong debater for the law he is now a strong debater against the law. He chose to come here among his folks and debate about it first. Unfortunately, the forum rules don't really allow that. So if he wants to debate with the rest of us in here he can't because of forum rules. I personally do not think that that is fair. Cause i would still like to debate him. But i can't in here. And its going to be harder in GT. But i guess that is the only alternative it seems.

So i have a questions. If one day I begin to find fault with one of the fundamental beliefs i can't debate about it here with you guys? I can only discuss it? Where do we draw the line between a debate and a discussion.

A debate can be defined as, "A discussion involving two or more opposing sides of an issue."


The people in this forum voted for no debate here from non-members. As I recall, you thanked us for that?

Andrew, have you heard of denomination-specific theology? It's a debate area here on CF that has much less traffic than GT.

http://christianforums.com/f451

Take it outside fellas.

[PROPHECYKID]

The people in this forum voted for no debate here from non-members. As I recall, you thanked us for that?

Andrew, have you heard of denomination-specific theology? It's a debate area here on CF that has much less traffic than GT.

http://christianforums.com/f451

Take it outside fellas.
No i didn't. Its ticklish. It was a good thing that that was done. But not in every single situation its a good thing. If i understand the situation with K4c as good as I think I do it is not a good thing. But a rule is a rule. Rules can never please everyone.

[TrustAndObey]

No i didn't. Its ticklish. It was a good thing that that was done. But not in every single situation its a good thing. If i understand the situation with K4c as good as I think I do it is not a good thing. But a rule is a rule. Rules can never please everyone.

If k4c had been respectful of our Main Forum rules (no debate) and had been respectful toward people ON this forum, I would agree with you. Good clean debate is very edifying for EVERYONE.

However, that is not the case, and he doesn't respect our rules here and may not debate here.

If you two do "take it outside" though, PM me the link. :)

[mva1985]

If k4c had been respectful of our Main Forum rules (no debate) and had been respectful toward people ON this forum, I would agree with you. Good clean debate is very edifying for EVERYONE.

However, that is not the case, and he doesn't respect our rules here and may not debate here.

If you two do "take it outside" though, PM me the link. :)
Was there a temporary halt on debate?

I mean look at the title of this sub-forum.

[TrustAndObey]

Was there a temporary halt on debate?

I mean look at the title of this sub-forum.

No...there's no halt on debate. YOU and I can debate (and probably will since you're ornery), but non-members cannot.

:)

Wooba suggested changing the name of the forum and I totally agree with him.

I think we should just call it "Deep Discussion" or something like that.

[mva1985]

No...there's no halt on debate. YOU and I can debate (and probably will since you're ornery), but non-members cannot.

:)

Wooba suggested changing the name of the forum and I totally agree with him.

I think we should just call it "Deep Discussion" or something like that.
Deep discussion sounds good.

[TrustAndObey]

Deep discussion sounds good.

Yeah, I think so too.

[sentipente]

I think that people like K4c are put at a disadvantage. One a strong debater for the law he is now a strong debater against the law. He chose to come here among his folks and debate about it first. Unfortunately, the forum rules don't really allow that. So if he wants to debate with the rest of us in here he can't because of forum rules. I personally do not think that that is fair. Cause i would still like to debate him. But i can't in here. And its going to be harder in GT. But i guess that is the only alternative it seems.

You can always go to the Progressive/Moderate/Former Adventist forum, Mister Nutmeg man.

[k4c]

I am always open to the truth of God's word. If anyone can change my mind, using Scripture, regarding the things that I post I have no problem making changes in my faith.

I totally understand why you believe the law is part of the New Covenant and at times I feel the same way but in order for me allow something to be part of my belief I need to be shown through Scripture leaving no doubt as to the truth of it. This can only come through debate for iron sharpens iron and at times sparks may fly but let the truth of God be made bright in the process.

[TrustAndObey]

I am always open to the truth of God's word. If anyone can change my mind, using Scripture, regarding the things that I post I have no problem making changes in my faith.

I totally understand why you believe the law is part of the New Covenant and at times I feel the same way but in order for me allow something to be part of my belief I need to be shown through Scripture leaving no doubt as to the truth of it. This can only come through debate for iron sharpens iron and at times spark may fly but let the truth of God be made bright in the process.

I'll just be honest in saying that I didn't read anything you posted after you kept violating the rules of our Main Forum.

If you'd like to start over, and seriously dive into the Word respectfully with us, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with that. In fact, I know they wouldn't.

I just spent an hour replying to a person that basically told me I was wasting one day a week studying scripture, praying, and getting out in creation...oh, and she said that our Savior WAS a sinner. So I'm not in the "convincing" mood since I know humans can't do that anyway.

I can't convince anyone of anything, but I can definitely join in rightly dividing the word.

Hi, I'm Lainie by the way.

[k4c]

I'll just be honest in saying that I didn't read anything you posted after you kept violating the rules of our Main Forum.

If you'd like to start over, and seriously dive into the Word respectfully with us, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with that. In fact, I know they wouldn't.

I just spent an hour replying to a person that basically told me I was wasting one day a week studying scripture, praying, and getting out in creation...oh, and she said that our Savior WAS a sinner. So I'm not in the "convincing" mood since I know humans can't do that anyway.

I can't convince anyone of anything, but I can definitely join in rightly dividing the word.

Hi, I'm Lainie by the way.

I have been debating on this debate forum for some time now but then all of a sudden I was told not to debate yet I continued to see others debating. I'm not sure what happened to cause this change to come about but it sure looked like I was being bullied around because of the contents of my posts and not the manner of my posts.

If the contents of my posts are the truth of God and I'm being told to get off the forum I feel it's my duty to bring light into darkness but if my post are disrespectfull and degrading than I need to be kicked off and repent before God but I don't feel that I have been disrespectfull or degrading in the contents of my post.

Oh, and my name is John...:wave:

[PROPHECYKID]

You can always go to the Progressive/Moderate/Former Adventist forum, Mister Nutmeg man.
Seems like someone knows something about the isle of spice.

[PROPHECYKID]

I have been debating on this debate forum for some time now but then all of a sudden I was told not to debate yet I continued to see others debating. I'm not sure what happened to cause this change to come about but it sure looked like I was being bullied around because of the contents of my posts and not the manner of my posts.

If the contents of my posts are the truth of God and I'm being told to get off the forum I feel it's my duty to bring light into darkness but if my post are disrespectfull and degrading than I need to be kicked off and repent before God but I don't feel that I have been disrespectfull or degrading in the contents of my post.

Oh, and my name is John...:wave:
Nice to meet you John.

[k4c]

Nice to meet you John.

It's nice to meet you too brother Prokid...;)

[PROPHECYKID]

It's nice to meet you too brother Prokid...;)
My name is Rhondel. I don't have a biblical name like you do. I kinda feel bad. I still believe that i have unfinished business with you. But we might have to take it outside. :D ^_^

[k4c]

My name is Rhondel. I don't have a biblical name like you do. I kinda feel bad. I still believe that i have unfinished business with you. But we might have to take it outside. :D ^_^

Bring it on Prokid...

By the way...John is also a bathroom so don't feel bad...:doh:

[TrustAndObey]

I have been debating on this debate forum for some time now but then all of a sudden I was told not to debate yet I continued to see others debating. I'm not sure what happened to cause this change to come about but it sure looked like I was being bullied around because of the contents of my posts and not the manner of my posts.

If the contents of my posts are the truth of God and I'm being told to get off the forum I feel it's my duty to bring light into darkness but if my post are disrespectfull and degrading than I need to be kicked off and repent before God but I don't feel that I have been disrespectfull or degrading in the contents of my post.

Oh, and my name is John...:wave:

Then you don't read my posts either :), because I tried to tell you that things were changing, and honestly, the changes weren't a result of your posts at all.

It's a long story but I can fill you in on the condensed version of it if you'd like. It was just unfortunate timing, and I'm sure it probably was very confusing for someone that hadn't been on this forum very long.

Those of us that have been here a while, of course, helped make the changes but it took a long time.

Nice to meet you John.