"where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

[LivingWordUnity]

Jesus says:

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." -Matthew 18:20



If you were on an airplane that crashed on a deserted island and you were the only survivor of that crash how would you be able to gather 2 or more together?

For Catholics, the answer is easy because "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1) which we call the communion of saints. When we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, 2 or more are gathered in prayer to God.



Revelation 5:8
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"


Revelation 8:3-4
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

[desmalia]

Matthew 18:15-20 (Context)

15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."



"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them."
Now you've probably heard that applied to the prayer meetings you've been at: "If we can just get two or three people together, God will be there." But if you've just got one person, God is still there, right? I used to worry about that when I was a kid because I heard some people preach on that verse, and I thought, "Well, what happens when one person prays?" Prayer isn't what the context is about. What are the two or three in this context? They are the witnesses in a discipline situation. The misinterpretation of these verses shows us why it's so important to teach the flow of the Scripture.
What does Jesus mean when He says, "...gathered together in My name..."? "To do My work," Jesus says, "of moving among the church, and gathering to reflect My character and My will. I am in the midst of that type of activity." Isn't that a great confidence? Not only is the Father acting in heaven with us, but the Son is there on earth with us. Never are you more fulfilling the will of God and the work of the Son, than when you are acting in the purging and the purifying of His own church. We all have to be a part of that as ministers of holiness.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/2332.htm (http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/2332.htm)

[cubanito]

Excellent answer Desmalia.

No for a realistic situatin, one that occurred with regularity within the Roman hierarchy.

A man is involved in all manner of very public immorality. So not merely 2 or 3, but a roomful of high ranking Bishops get together in a formal council and warn this man that he should repent. The man refuses, and heaps all manner of curses upon the council. So the man ignores the council of the CHurch, and continues to sit on his throne, wearing his pointy hat, at Rome.

How should we view such historical figures? As the infallible Vicars of Christ, or as what Scripture says we should?

Please note, I speak of many (not all) of the medieval "Popes", who ignored councils and behaved in a manner so reprehensible Dante gave them the lowest spot of Hell. I am NOT speaking of the more recent "Popes" who, although I believe are erroneous in many opinions, are on the whole men of exemplary lives, humanly speaking.

It seems to me these verses speak for the duty of Christians to separate themselves from men, and ultimately institutions, that become unrepentantly immoral. Thus, these verses actually give credence to the Reformers, who were rebuffed in their attempt to REFORM the RC, to break away and try to do better.

JR

[LivingWordUnity]

Matthew 18:15-20 (Context)

15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." So the context of the passage is the authority of binding and loosing that Jesus gave to the one true Church. Very interesting.

[PaladinGirl]

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses but I don't think that means that praying to the saints is true. That said, I don't think that just because God is present where two or three are gathered in His name excludes the possibility that God is also present where only one is gathered in His name.

[LivingWordUnity]

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses but I don't think that means that praying to the saints is true. That said, I don't think that just because God is present where two or three are gathered in His name excludes the possibility that God is also present where only one is gathered in His name.Being a Christian means being a part of the big family of God and the angels and saints. Jesus said when we pray we should pray the words "Our Father..." He didn't say to pray "My Father..."

When Catholics pray, we pray through the saints not to them. We ask them to pray for us just as you might ask me to pray for you.

But the difference between us here on earth and the saints in heaven is that they have finished the race (1 Cor 9:24) and are now in heaven beholding the beatific vision of God (Luke 23:43, Luke 20:37-38).

Death does not separate us from God
John 8:51 whoever keeps my word will never see death
Eph. 3:15 every family in heaven and on earth is named
Luke 23:43 today you will be with me in Paradise
Luke 20:37-38 for to him all are alive
Matt. 22:32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living
Mark 12:26-27 He is not God of the dead but of the living
Romans 14:9 Lord of both the dead and the living
Hebrews 12:1 (We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses)
1 Peter 3:19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison
John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Rev. 6:9-10 “When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, ‘How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’"
Deuteronomy 34:7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died.
Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him.

But you will probably ask, "how can the saints hear our prayers?" Here is how:

"I can do all things in him who strengthens me." (Philippians 4:13)

Angels and Saints are in Heaven and Interceding for us, taking our Prayers to God
Matt. 18:10 their angels in heaven
Rev. 5:8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”
Rev. 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a gold censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

But as I had said, the context of the passage "where two or three are gathered in my name..." is the authority of binding and loosing that Jesus gave to the one true Church.

[BigNorsk]

Yes, you are correct that the keys were not just given to Peter but to the Church, Of course the binding and loosing is not some arbitrary thing to be exchanged for works or money but rather the Law and the Gospel. The proclamation of the Law binds one, convicting him of his sins. The Gospel frees us, loosing the binding.

Marv

[cubanito]

Isa 42:8 KJV
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

My dear Marv, why do you insult our guest by quoting Scripture thus?

JR

[LivingWordUnity]

Isa 42:8 KJV
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

My dear Marv, why do you insult our guest by quoting Scripture thus?

JRWhy should I be insulted by that Bible verse? For the past 2,000 years the Catholic Church has always taught one Lord, one faith, one Baptism. And the Catholic Church has always condemned idolatry. How long have Protestant denominations been around? Let's see...

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

[Hentenza]

LOL!!!! There goes the times again. Dude, do you actually have anything new to post? :doh:

BTW- The RCC was not founded at Pentecost. You haven't figure that one yet?

You are still to answer my brother Cubanito's statement concerning Peter. Was there a church already in Rome when Peter supposedly got there? How can Peter be the first pope if a church already existed in Rome?:scratch::sigh::swoon::doh:

[LivingWordUnity]

LOL!!!! There goes the times again. Dude, do you actually have anything new to post? :doh:

BTW- The RCC was not founded at Pentecost. You haven't figure that one yet?

You are still to answer my brother Cubanito's statement concerning Peter. Was there a church already in Rome when Peter supposedly got there? How can Peter be the first pope if a church already existed in Rome?:scratch::sigh::swoon::doh:I answered Cubanito's question. Take another look at the other thread.
Other thread (http://christianforums.com/t7168720-john-2115-17.html&page=4)

Why are you still unwilling to admit that you were wrong for claiming that Contantine founded the Catholic Church when I debunked that claim with historical facts?

[Hentenza]

Actually, you think that you have debunked it. All that you have posted is "according to the RC" party line type responses. It would be nice if the evidence you posted was actually unbiased.

[Hentenza]

And, LOL!!!!, do you actually call this a response that addresses the question?

If I were the first Christian to land on Mars, would that make me the Bishop of Mars? If the bishop of New York made a trip to Rome, would that make him the Bishop of Rome?

Not!!!!! Are you going to answer the question or not?

[LivingWordUnity]

Actually, you think that you have debunked it. All that you have posted is "according to the RC" party line type responses. It would be nice if the evidence you posted was actually unbiased.The existence of 32 Popes before the time of Constantine is a fact. I even gave you the list of them with names and dates.

Constantine not becoming a Catholic until his death bed conversion to the faith is a fact.

Do you honestly think it makes any sense that someone who is not even a Catholic would found the Catholic Church after it had already had 32 Popes?

Instead of accusing me of being "biased", why don't you try presenting some historical facts? And why can't you just admit that you were wrong?