Oy! I'm finally ready...

[Torah613]

So I finally got my apt. kashered for passover this morning. It took so long, so many days really, to get it all done. I'm so exhausted I may end up sleeping straight through Pesach. The crazy thing is, I only live in a rather small studio. How do y'all with big houses and all manage?

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

So I finally got my apt. kashered for passover this morning. It took so long, so many days really, to get it all done. I'm so exhausted I may end up sleeping straight through Pesach. The crazy thing is, I only live in a rather small studio. How do y'all with big houses and all manage?

Yochanan

Now you know why so many Jews leave town for Pesach!
Although you still have to clean one room if you leave your
house, it's a lot easier than having to do the whole thing!

I'm spending Pesach at my apartment, which is small, so I don't
have to clean my house (other than the one required room).
Since we are only part time in the apartment it's pretty easy to
clean. I just have to tinfoil the counters, stove top and
ice box this Thursday night (after the hametz search) and I
will be done.

Here's a tip though- when you put out the 10 pieces of
hametz on Thursday night to search for, cut up a slice
of bread into 10 pieces and wrap each piece in paper and
twist the ends. The last thing you want to do after all
that cleaning is spread hametz crumbs all over your
apartment again!

And on shabbas, after the kiddush meal, make sure you
take the crumbs from the challah and flush it down the
toilet! Don't dump it down the sink or you have just
ruined your nice hametz free sink....and don't put it in
the garbage since you can't carry it outside....

[Lulav]

Confused here, how does leaving you house fulfill the commandment?

[ChavaK]

Confused here, how does leaving you house fulfill the commandment?

Sorry for not a clearer explanation, of course you have to sell
the hametz first so it is not in your possesion...

[MessianicShmuely]

I am really blessed this year as we are moving into a new house. We have scrubbed scrubbed and scrubbed some more so the entire house is chametz free!!

Baruch Ha Shem!!!!!!!!!

[Yuanshen]

Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house?



I can wash my house and get all the unleavened bread out, but if at the end of it all I still do not call upon God and His Son in Truth then what I am doing is in vain.

If I get all th dirt out but still have hypocrisy in my life then I am doing everything in vain - I have no relationship with God, just trying to worship Him with rules.

yuan

[visionary]

Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house?



I can wash my house and get all the unleavened bread out, but if at the end of it all I still do not call upon God and His Son in Truth then what I am doing is in vain.

If I get all th dirt out but still have hypocrisy in my life then I am doing everything in vain - I have no relationship with God, just trying to worship Him with rules.

yuanTrue... it is always good to remember the reason you are doing it, not just going through the motions. If prayerfully, attended to ... I believe this brings to mind just who difficult it is to get sin out of your life... And just how much we need Him to show us even the corners that we may have missed.

[Torah]

Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house?



I can wash my house and get all the unleavened bread out, but if at the end of it all I still do not call upon God and His Son in Truth then what I am doing is in vain.

If I get all th dirt out but still have hypocrisy in my life then I am doing everything in vain - I have no relationship with God, just trying to worship Him with rules.

yuan
Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house? Yes! But! Object lessons teach us in a deeper way. Yeast like sin. is / and can be very difficult to clean out of ones life. I see the getting yeast out of ones house as a speed bump in life that makes us face the reality of sin / yeast in our life. Putting scripture on the doorframe of your house [Deut 6:4-9] is a very good Object lesson for keeping G-ds word in the forefront of your mind. Why put tassel on one garment? Read Numbers 15: 39-40. [Object lesson to keep us pure]

[Torah]

So I finally got my apt. kashered for passover this morning. It took so long, so many days really, to get it all done. I'm so exhausted I may end up sleeping straight through Pesach. The crazy thing is, I only live in a rather small studio. How do y'all with big houses and all manage?

Yochanan
I start early and store stuff with yeast in a basket, when I use it I replace it to the basket. No matter how hard we clean I always find yeast / sin that I forgot.

[Lulav]

Sorry for not a clearer explanation, of course you have to sell
the hametz first so it is not in your possesion... Thanks chavak, but I am still confused

Now you know why so many Jews leave town for Pesach!
Although you still have to clean one room if you leave your
house, it's a lot easier than having to do the whole thing!

I'm spending Pesach at my apartment, which is small, so I don't
have to clean my house (other than the one required room).


How does leaving town allow you to not clean all chometz out of all your dwellings? I don't understand how you only have to clean one room? Just because you are not in your house, or one of your houses, they are still your houses, and care should be taken to remove all chometz, nu? Maybe I am not understanding what you are selling? Or wanting to buy back. ?

[ChavaK]

Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house?

No; G-d commands that we do not have chametz in our possesion.




If I get all th dirt out but still have hypocrisy in my life then I am doing everything in vain - I have no relationship with God, just trying to worship Him with rules.

yuan
First, removing chametz is not "getting the dirt out".
Second, G-d Himself is the one that set up the rules.

[Gwenyfur]

I cleaned our entire house...even though none of us were going to be there for pesach...

we had a 'mini' seder before I left for work (I hate my job at times like this) and my hubby took my daughter to our Rabbi's to spend pesach there...

it's his first under a Rabbi....praying G-d touches his poor old baptist heart :D

[ContraMundum]

Sorry for not a clearer explanation, of course you have to sell
the hametz first so it is not in your possesion...

..That's me! :)

Question for Messianics.....do you guys sell your chametz, and if so...who to?

[HaReb]

Just a thought...

Y'shua likened chametz to sin, therefore, as we have to sell our chametz to the goyim in order to fulfil the Law (so that we do not actually own it), who would buy our sin - to whom should we sell it?

[ChazakEmunah]

So I finally got my apt. kashered for passover this morning. It took so long, so many days really, to get it all done. I'm so exhausted I may end up sleeping straight through Pesach. The crazy thing is, I only live in a rather small studio. How do y'all with big houses and all manage?

Yochanan
I can empathize. We still have a bit more cleaning to do. I just finished vacuuming out our cars yesterday. Man, that was some work! Floors, seats, car-seats... underneath the car-seats...... Oy!


Oh and don't forget you guys, if you didn't kasher any cookware or dishes for Pesach you need to go out and get some that are chametz free.

[ChazakEmunah]

... you have to sell
the hametz first so it is not in your possesion...
Yep, just filled out that form yesterday for our Rabbi. This is really the first year that we're really trying to do it all according to halacha. Progressive learning ya know? :)

Question for you, what do you guys (you and your husband) do during Chol haMoed? Do you guys work or do you take the whole week off? Ideally I'd like to take the week off, but I know that we really can't afford it.

[Talmidah]

We have to work.

[ChazakEmunah]

Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house?
The problem is that you have no understanding of Judaism. Judaism teaches that HaShem commanded us (the Jews) to remove all chametz (leaven) from our dwellings. This includes our homes, cars, even our workplaces. This is a non-negotiable deal. If we rebel and don't do it, then we are spiritually cut-off from HaShem and the Jewish people until we do t'shuva (repent).


I can wash my house and get all the unleavened bread out, but if at the end of it all I still do not call upon God and His Son in Truth then what I am doing is in vain.
Again, you're missing the point. As Jews, we don't believe that Je*us is G-d's son. We do however believe that all who worship the One True G-d, whether Jew or Gentile are all sons and daughters of HKB"H (the Holy One, Blessed be He).



If I get all th dirt out but still have hypocrisy in my life then I am doing everything in vain - I have no relationship with God, just trying to worship Him with rules.
I really understand what you're trying to say, and in that sense, I can agree with you. If a person lacks emuna (pure and simple trusting faith in HaShem) but yet keeps the mitzvot, their life is lacking.

On that same note, if a person only has emuna but does not keep the mitzvot, they will never get anywhere. A person cannot say "I have emuna" and then do nothing about it. Such a statement is absolutely meaningless unless they live out their emuna.

In reality, both emuna and the mitzvot work together. Only by doing both can your emuna be perfected and your n'shoma (soul) ascend to higher spiritual levels.

[ChavaK]

I can empathize. We still have a bit more cleaning to do. I just finished vacuuming out our cars yesterday. Man, that was some work! Floors, seats, car-seats... underneath the car-seats...... Oy!
I learned a long time ago to take my car to a carwash and let
them deal with cleaning it. It's the best $20 I ever spend.
Especially my car- I am not very good about keeping it
clean-it's probably got a layer of chametz three inches
deep by the time it gets it annual vacuuming at Pessach...


Oh and don't forget you guys, if you didn't kasher any cookware or dishes for Pesach you need to go out and get some that are chametz free.
Yep...

Also don't forget you also have to clean your office, if you work...

[zaksmummy]

The problem is that you have no understanding of Judaism. Judaism teaches that HaShem commanded us (the Jews) to remove all chametz (leaven) from our dwellings. This includes our homes, cars, even our workplaces. This is a non-negotiable deal. If we rebel and don't do it, then we are spiritually cut-off from HaShem and the Jewish people until we do t'shuva (repent).


Again, you're missing the point. As Jews, we don't believe that Je*us is G-d's son. We do however believe that all who worship the One True G-d, whether Jew or Gentile are all sons and daughters of HKB"H (the Holy One, Blessed be He).



I really understand what you're trying to say, and in that sense, I can agree with you. If a person lacks emuna (pure and simple trusting faith in HaShem) but yet keeps the mitzvot, their life is lacking.

On that same note, if a person only has emuna but does not keep the mitzvot, they will never get anywhere. A person cannot say "I have emuna" and then do nothing about it. Such a statement is absolutely meaningless unless they live out their emuna.

In reality, both emuna and the mitzvot work together. Only by doing both can your emuna be perfected and your n'shoma (soul) ascend to higher spiritual levels.
Thanks for this, you put it in such a lovely way.

And Chavak thanks for the tip about wrapping the bread in paper, I was wondering how to do this with my son without getting crumbs everywhere!

[ChavaK]

http://ouradio.org/images/uploads/photos/KKChametz15.jpg[


And Chavak thanks for the tip about wrapping the bread in paper, I was wondering how to do this with my son without getting crumbs everywhere!Not only does it keep crumbs from getting all over the place,
it makes the chametz burn much easier!

[Lulav]

Just a thought...

Y'shua likened chametz to sin, therefore, as we have to sell our chametz to the goyim in order to fulfil the Law (so that we do not actually own it), who would buy our sin - to whom should we sell it? My question is, where in Torah does HaShem tell us to sell our sins to the goyim? Is it because they are already in so much sin, that a little more does not matter? What does that teach? Is that not in violation of what Yeshua called the second greatest mitzvah?

It's not only who would buy it, or whom should we sell it to, but what about the buying back? to me this muddies the lesson.

When I was first trying to learn how to be an Observant Jew as opposed to the unobservant one,;) I did this, directly and indirectly through a local Rabbi. But I became 'convicted', pricked in the heart. Especially since with the Rabbi, it was still in my possession, within my house, within my borders. The Bank owns most peoples homes so they really don't have to sell anything at passover because they can just say,' it isn't my home really'. But is this what HaShem was trying to teach us?

I still do the cleaning as this is a lesson I believe we are to do each year and HaShem always has something new to teach me. One year it was ( and so far to me, this is the most important thing) that no matter how much we try to get the hometz out of our dwellings we can't do it. WE CAN'T DO IT! Not without him. We search the dark corners but some will always remain hidden to our eyes and selling it to a poor heathen is not the answer, but Yeshua is! HaShem told us that he would redeem us, redeem us from what? Our SIN!

Yes, sin is chametz, chametz is the physical representation of sin. And we can't sell it to anyone and be free and clean from it, we can only take the gift that HaShem gave us in Yeshua Messiah, who PAID the price of that sin for us , thus making us tahor. Yeshua is the only one that can totally clean out our 'dwellings', which is the whole point of Biur chametz. For those who have found Messiah, why are you keeping this tradition that in essence violates the commandment?

I will never participate in this again, as I love my neighbor and will not throw out such a huge stumbling block for him. Sin is sin weither you are a Jew or gentile, and those entrusted to be a light to the nations should not be the ones to not only keep them in darkness but add to it.

[ChavaK]

Here is an article from Aish that might make cleaning a little
simpler:


http://www.aish.com/passlaw/passlawdefault/Passover_Cleaning_Made_Easy.asp

[johnd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orqChei5B_U

[Torah613]

Isn't knowing the spiritual truth about Passover more important than getting yeast out of your house?



I can wash my house and get all the unleavened bread out, but if at the end of it all I still do not call upon God and His Son in Truth then what I am doing is in vain.

If I get all th dirt out but still have hypocrisy in my life then I am doing everything in vain - I have no relationship with God, just trying to worship Him with rules.

yuan
Well, to understand this one must move from the standard christian/secular religious viewpoint to the Jewish view. We, as a covenant community, are bound by our rules (the Mitzvoth) to remove the hametz from our possessions. Just as Old Order Amish are prohibited by their rules (the Ordnung) from owning automobiles.

But what must be understood is that there is a deeper meaning to keeping any of the commandments. We don't just remove the hametz from our homes, etc. but we also remove the hametz (sins, vices, etc.) from our spiritual lives, at least to the best of our ability. By searching for tiny crumbs of bread, we become attuned to the tiny misdeeds that creep into our lives.

In Judaism, we don't keep the "spirit of the law" as is emphasized in many christian communities. We also don't keep "the letter of hte law" as were often portrayed as doing. In fact, we do both. Keeping any of hte Mitzvoth is not just about thou shalts and thou shalt nots, but also about internal reflection upon our relations with HaShem, with our fellow Jews, and with humanity in general.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I can empathize. We still have a bit more cleaning to do. I just finished vacuuming out our cars yesterday. Man, that was some work! Floors, seats, car-seats... underneath the car-seats...... Oy!


Oh and don't forget you guys, if you didn't kasher any cookware or dishes for Pesach you need to go out and get some that are chametz free.
ach I forgot my car! thanks ever so much for the reminder.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I really understand what you're trying to say, and in that sense, I can agree with you. If a person lacks emuna (pure and simple trusting faith in HaShem) but yet keeps the mitzvot, their life is lacking.

On that same note, if a person only has emuna but does not keep the mitzvot, they will never get anywhere. A person cannot say "I have emuna" and then do nothing about it. Such a statement is absolutely meaningless unless they live out their emuna.

In reality, both emuna and the mitzvot work together. Only by doing both can your emuna be perfected and your n'shoma (soul) ascend to higher spiritual levels.
a hearty Omayn to that!

Yochanan

[ChazakEmunah]

ach I forgot my car! thanks ever so much for the reminder.

Yochanan
No problem! :thumbsup:

[Wags]

After some study on the topic, we didn't find the selling and buying back to be scriptural. So we no longer sell chametz - instead we plan ahead so that there isn't any left in the house. If I goof up my planning the dogs, cats, goats and chickens get a chametz feast. :)

Looks like this year we will be switching to K4P by dinner Thursday.

[ChavaK]

we plan ahead so that there isn't any left in the house. If I goof up my planning the dogs, cats, goats and chickens get a chametz feast. :)



Do the critters get fed chametz during Pesach, or are you talking
about before Pesach starts?

[ContraMundum]

For those who have found Messiah, why are you keeping this tradition that in essence violates the commandment?

Chametz during Pesach is only a sin for a Jew, according to our (Jewish) doctrine. Therefore, we are keeping our laws and the goyim are in fact assisting us to keep them. They are not committing a sin by purchasing our chametz, therefore we are not giving them a stumbling block. They help us to meet our commitment. In fact, this could be seen as a mitzvah (in the sense of a good work) for them. This is a great thing for the community at large, IMHO.

That's my angle, anyway.

[Skeeterbug]

..That's me! :)

Question for Messianics.....do you guys sell your chametz, and if so...who to?

We sell ours to the owner of the Christian Book store here , then we buy it back after the holidays I have seen sites on net like ask moses that have links for selling chametz

[ContraMundum]

We sell ours to the owner of the Christian Book store here , then we buy it back after the holidays I have seen sites on net like ask moses that have links for selling chametz

While the question was for Messianics I'm pretty impressed with your bookstore connection. That's a very fine thing they are doing for the Jewish community.

[Talmidah]

While the question was for Messianics I'm pretty impressed with your bookstore connection. That's a very fine thing they are doing for the Jewish community.
Skeeterbug is Messianic, Contra :)

Hello and Shalom to all. I am new here and I am A Messianic Jew. Which means I am jewish Believer in messiah Y'shua. I live in the US. I hope to someday to do Aliyah. great site even though i do not like the avatars. reason no jewish ones. oh well I will wait until I can do a custom one:wave:

[ChazakEmunah]

Skeeterbug is Messianic, Contra :)
??? But she has a Traditional Jewish icon. :scratch:

[Lulav]

Chametz during Pesach is only a sin for a Jew, according to our (Jewish) doctrine. Therefore, we are keeping our laws and the goyim are in fact assisting us to keep them. They are not committing a sin by purchasing our chametz, therefore we are not giving them a stumbling block. They help us to meet our commitment. In fact, this could be seen as a mitzvah (in the sense of a good work) for them. This is a great thing for the community at large, IMHO.

That's my angle, anyway.Chometz represents sin, does Paul ( a Jew) not say this? Therefore if it represents sin ( and he doesn't specify only to the Jews) then how can you justify this? Which law are you keeping doing this? Will you please give me where in Torah? If this is true then I can sell to my husband who is a gentile, and do you know what that will teach him? Something I have been trying to 'unteach' him for quite awhile, that Jews r better than Gentiles, but I don't believe that, we are different, but not better. And we don't show the light to the nations by teaching them that what is sin to us is not sin to them, and that what is sin to us can be even sold to them!

But all that aside, do you then buy it back? Now your chometz, which represents sin, comes home to roost, perhaps Matthew 12:43-45 could apply here? So what has this gentile learned? Not that he had done a good deed, but that Jews only put off sin for seven days and pawn it off on a gentile, then buy it back, thus are they only sin free for one week out of the year? This may sound weird to you , but this is how some think, and can you blame them? How would this lead them to G-d?
And if sin isn't sin for them, then they don't have to clean it out of their lives do they, and that can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings.

It is known that the Corinthians were gentiles, but Paul said this to them

Cor. 5:8 - Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So I ask, what feast was he speaking to these gentiles of keeping? And were they allowed to eat leaven during it?

[Talmidah]

??? But she has a Traditional Jewish icon. :scratch: I know :)

[ChavaK]

??? But she has a Traditional Jewish icon. :scratch:

She also lists her religion in her profile as "Judaism"....
I don't get it either.
Skeeter, maybe you can explain for us confused folks?;)

[Gwenyfur]

well my husband informed me I'm truly losing my mind...
he went to take Bug to the Rabbi's for passover...well...they did have dinner...unexpectedly :blush:

LOL! So if anyone sees my mind...hang onto it for me? I really need it back apparnetly :sigh:

[Lulav]

well my husband informed me I'm truly losing my mind...
he went to take Bug to the Rabbi's for passover...well...they did have dinner...unexpectedly :blush:

LOL! So if anyone sees my mind...hang onto it for me? I really need it back apparnetly :sigh:


we had a 'mini' seder before I left for work (I hate my job at times like this) and my hubby took my daughter to our Rabbi's to spend pesach there...

it's his first under a Rabbi....praying G-d touches his poor old baptist hear t :D I was gonna ask about your Seder on this Sunday, and why you wouldn't be in your house all week, but we all seem to be so different I figured, eh, don't ask.

Seems like you need this :hug:

[Gwenyfur]

I felt so horrible! I sent them on the wrong night...somehwere I lost an *entire* week?!?!

Thanks :hug: You're right...I could use that :blush:

Thankfully my Rabbi has a wonderful sense of humor and knows how busy adn stressed I've been lately...and while my husband and daughter are having a good laugh...I'm mortified! :eek:

[Talmidah]

:hug:

[Tishri1]

who would buy our sin - to whom should we sell it?Sell it to Yeshua and dont buy it back:)

I know we did , when he became our Lord and Saviour, but symbolically do it each year , at first we clean out as much as we find, but we cant get it all ourselves right , so sell it to him, or invite him in to cleanse it himself....

Someday we will be leaving our homes and the chametz behind and that will be the best and only lasting way to get rid of all of it , but till then sell it to Yeshua:thumbsup:

BTW we already know this but its worth repeating

He's already bought it, all of it, its his now, we dont have to have any claim to it anymore, release it to him and let him cleanse away.....

[HadassahSukkot]

Oh Gwenny :hug: I know exactly how you feel! We've had that kind of week/month/year ourselves, and from talking to my mom... she's had it three times as bad..

At least it's one of those things that will come up in later years and everyone will get a great laugh over it.. smile and quickly change the subject ;)

[ContraMundum]

Skeeterbug is Messianic, Contra :)

Then he has the wrong faith icon. I'll look into it.

[ContraMundum]

Chometz represents sin, does Paul ( a Jew) not say this? Therefore if it represents sin ( and he doesn't specify only to the Jews) then how can you justify this? Which law are you keeping doing this? Will you please give me where in Torah? If this is true then I can sell to my husband who is a gentile, and do you know what that will teach him? Something I have been trying to 'unteach' him for quite awhile, that Jews r better than Gentiles, but I don't believe that, we are different, but not better. And we don't show the light to the nations by teaching them that what is sin to us is not sin to them, and that what is sin to us can be even sold to them!

But all that aside, do you then buy it back? Now your chometz, which represents sin, comes home to roost, perhaps Matthew 12:43-45 could apply here? So what has this gentile learned? Not that he had done a good deed, but that Jews only put off sin for seven days and pawn it off on a gentile, then buy it back, thus are they only sin free for one week out of the year? This may sound weird to you , but this is how some think, and can you blame them? How would this lead them to G-d?
And if sin isn't sin for them, then they don't have to clean it out of their lives do they, and that can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings.

It is known that the Corinthians were gentiles, but Paul said this to them



So I ask, what feast was he speaking to these gentiles of keeping? And were they allowed to eat leaven during it?


Um...well, Lulav, I don't really see it that way, but I can see your point too. :)

Sure, leaven represents sin, so we get it out of the house- but only on Pesach. The rest of the year we pretty much have it around and eat it also. But I always partake of unleavened bread every week as well, as you know (this is the more traditional intepretation of "The Feast" spoken of in 1 Cor- but I know we might differ with you on that- and that's ok, of course. It's fine). I think the symbol only represents sin, as leaven is not sin in and of itself- it's just leaven. Therefore, during Pesach, we primarily remember through symbols and anamnesis the flight from Egypt and our freedom from bondage, but we also remember sin and salvation from it. Like all true religious ritual, it serves as a blessing for us all but most importantly it reminds about how we are to live our lives all year round. So, from a more "traditional" perspective (if I can call it that), Pesach tells us about andbrings us back to one thing in salvation history and we are told to have no chametz in our home, but we also meet our Passover lamb today in unleavened bread every time we have communion (this is one reason we must always use unleavened bread in remembrance of not only the Pesach but also in the remembrance of the Passover Lamb- the Lamb without sin).

I guess what I'm trying to say in the usual long-winded manner is that leaven represents sin only during Pesach and (for me) communion. Leaven is used to illustrate the effects of sin homiletically of course, and that can happen anytime of the year, but ceremonially it only represents sin during those special ceremonial and sacramental times.

As for your comments about what a Gentile perceives about selling Chametz- that is a good point. However, isn't it easy for anyone to mis-understand the workings of anyone else's religion? All we need to do is be better witnesses and explain things properly- I don;t pretend to know all the answers that a Gentile or Jew might bring up about this, but I can only do my best and hope they get something from our witness.

Now, I understand we differ, but I really think you make a good point. This year, I've done a good job of cleaning the place, but I will still go through the tradition of selling my chametz- maybe I just can't help myself but I have never really seen any benefit to dropping what I personally take to be a beautiful tradition. I'm just wired that way I guess. :)

[Lulav]

Sell it to Yeshua and dont buy it back:)

I know we did , when he became our Lord and Saviour, but symbolically do it each year , at first we clean out as much as we find, but we cant get it all ourselves right , so sell it to him, or invite him in to cleanse it himself....

Someday we will be leaving our homes and the chametz behind and that will be the best and only lasting way to get rid of all of it , but till then sell it to Yeshua:thumbsup:

BTW we already know this but its worth repeating

He's already bought it, all of it, its his now, we dont have to have any claim to it anymore, release it to him and let him cleanse away.....:thumbsup::amen:

[Lulav]

Then he has the wrong faith icon. I'll ook into it.skeeter is a lady, the pink icon before the star one

Skeeterbug vbmenu_register("postmenu_45930513", true);
Junior Member
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[ContraMundum]

skeeter is a lady, the pink icon before the star one

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My bad.

[HaReb]

Lulav et al,

Sorry, as you know I have been having problems with the CF site for a while - the main one at the moment is that it doesn't always show dark green on the thread title when someone has posted after my post. Anyway, I missed your response to my post!

What concerns me is that, reading through this thread, and seeing the effort, diligence and skill that goes into getting rid of hametz, for Passover, the simple symbolic message is being lost. If we could apply that effort, diligence and skill to getting rid of sin, and being obedient to Y'shua, we all be much better people in, and for, the Kingdom. Sadly, the reality is that the fact that hametz is often bought back after Passover, is symbolic of the way that we often ask Y'shua to 'buy' our sins on the Cross and then we 'buy' back our old selves all over again - until next time!

G_d has given us this understanding of the Feast in order to illustrate to us the folly in which we live our lives: we spend days cleaning out this symbol of sin in our homes but nowhere near as much care in cleaning out the sin in our lives! Can the contradiction not be seen by folk?

[ContraMundum]

Lulav et al,

Sorry, as you know I have been having problems with the CF site for a while - the main one at the moment is that it doesn't always show dark green on the thread title when someone has posted after my post. Anyway, I missed your response to me post!

What concerns me is that, reading through this thread, and seeing the effort, diligence and skill that goes into getting rid of hametz, for Passover. If we could apply that effort, diligence and skill to getting rid of sin, and being obedient to Y'shua, we all be much better people in, and for, the Kingdom. Sadly, the reality is that the fact that hametz is often bought back after Passover, is symbolic of the way that we often ask Y'shua to 'buy' our sins on the Cross and then we 'buy' back our old selves all over again - until next time!

G_d has given us this understanding of the Feast in order to illustrate to us the folly in which we live our lives: we spend days cleaning out this symbol of sin in our homes but nowhere near as much care in cleaning out the sin in our lives! Can the contradiction not be seen by folk.


Excellent post...

Last year, someone asked me what I gave up for Lent...my reply : "The same as all year round, I give up sin". I think they expected me to say "chocolate" or something daft like that.

:thumbsup:

[HaReb]

CM - I have edited my post very slightly from when you copied it but only to tidy it up.

However, yes, I think that, for a number of Christians, Lent is subject to the same symbolism though for many nowhere near as much work is put into ridding themselves of anything, on the whole. It tends to be daft things like chocolate, cigarettes, fattening foods etc. But the lesson is there!

[ChavaK]

After some study on the topic, we didn't find the selling and buying back to be scriptural. So we no longer sell chametz -

when you get right down to it, how the seder plate is set up,
how the seder is done, none of that is "scriptural" ;)

[HaReb]

when you get right down to it, how the seder plate is set up,
how the seder is done, none of that is "scriptural"


Folk are right - loose wording on my part. It is not the Law with a capital 'L' but it is man's law that dictates many of these things.

[Torah613]

Oy! how this thread has grown, and all due to misunderstanding of the Jewish faith.

Chametz represents sin, and therefore we symbolically sell it off during Pesach so as not to have a reminder of our many transgressions of the Halacha in our homes, cars, etc. Yes it is a lot of work to get this done, but the work has a purpose too--it reminds us of how we must hard we must strive to mold ourlives to our faith, and to the will of HaShem. Of course we don't actually sell our sins, merely a neutral item that is used to represent sin.

But there is another side of the traditional getting ready for Pesach. We don't just scurry about getting the house clean, we also take time (extensive time) to ponder and reflect on the holiday, its meanings for us and the Jewish people, how we have become slaves to certain habits, etc.

You don't just keep the literal rendering of hte commandment, you also keep the spiritual meaning of it. We don't just give Tzedakah because we are told to do, but because it helps us become aware of our own needs and the needs of others--in short it builds community. We don't just eat Kosher because it is commanded, but transform the act of eating and our very lives thereby.

All this hubub over Kashering the house for Pesach, and yet noone complains about Kashering a house to begin with. Speaking from experience, that was alot more difficult. Frankly, I can still smell the faint aroma of bacon from the previous tenants. blech.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

lt. Frankly, I can still smell the faint aroma of bacon from the previous tenants. blech.

Yochanan

blech indeed.....:sick:

[Torah613]

It doesn't help when my neighbors across the hall insist on opening their door while frying up the nasty stuff. Its enough to make a man cry.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Oh Gwenny :hug: I know exactly how you feel! We've had that kind of week/month/year ourselves, and from talking to my mom... she's had it three times as bad..

At least it's one of those things that will come up in later years and everyone will get a great laugh over it.. smile and quickly change the subject ;) Yes, Us Celiacs call it affectionately, 'Brain Fog' :D



:hug:

[Lulav]

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble with the site. I think they are still tweeking it, sometimes when I turn pages it looses all its line dividing the posts and other things. You might want to check on your subscription page, that will tell you about replies to where you have posted, just go into your control panel and you will see the newest replies to your subscribed threads. :)Lulav et al,

Sorry, as you know I have been having problems with the CF site for a while - the main one at the moment is that it doesn't always show dark green on the thread title when someone has posted after my post. Anyway, I missed your response to my post!

What concerns me is that, reading through this thread, and seeing the effort, diligence and skill that goes into getting rid of hametz, for Passover, the simple symbolic message is being lost. If we could apply that effort, diligence and skill to getting rid of sin, and being obedient to Y'shua, we all be much better people in, and for, the Kingdom. Sadly, the reality is that the fact that hametz is often bought back after Passover, is symbolic of the way that we often ask Y'shua to 'buy' our sins on the Cross and then we 'buy' back our old selves all over again - until next time!

G_d has given us this understanding of the Feast in order to illustrate to us the folly in which we live our lives: we spend days cleaning out this symbol of sin in our homes but nowhere near as much care in cleaning out the sin in our lives! Can the contradiction not be seen by folk?
This is my point exactly if it can't be seen by my previous posts. I realized this way back, we just can't get it all out, that is why I believe HaShem picked yeast to demonstrate our sin to us,and it's something that we deal with daily, as it is in our daily bread. He also makes this point when sending manna, the leaven free bread from heaven, this is what you need, and that represented Yeshua. But they complained and wanted more.

But cleaning out this and every crumb that gets into every nook and cranny helps us to see how helpless we are without him, that our righteousness is as filty rags. And selling what we can't get out circumvents what Yeshua is for! That is what really bothers me, that by this tradition the lesson of HaShem is ignored, or covered or taken away. And to make matters worst, it is just put aside for 7 days and then taken up again? Liken that to having an addiction to anything that is sinful, you only stop doing it for seven days and on the eighth day you start doing it all over again?

I see this as showing us our wretchedness, that it permeates our lives, it is in every corner of our existence, yeast is in the air even! Yet we cannot do this alone, we need the L-RD and we need Yeshua.

Hyssop was used to paint the blood of the lamb on the mezzuzah to save us from death in Egypt, yet King David petitioned the L-RD to purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean, wash me and I shall be whiter than snow. Only the L-RD can do this for us, we can't do it ourselves.

[Lulav]

Um...well, Lulav, I don't really see it that way, but I can see your point too. :)

Sure, leaven represents sin, so we get it out of the house- but only on Pesach. The rest of the year we pretty much have it around and eat it also. But I always partake of unleavened bread every week as well, as you know (this is the more traditional intepretation of "The Feast" spoken of in 1 Cor- but I know we might differ with you on that- and that's ok, of course. It's fine). I think the symbol only represents sin, as leaven is not sin in and of itself- it's just leaven. Therefore, during Pesach, we primarily remember through symbols and anamnesis the flight from Egypt and our freedom from bondage, but we also remember sin and salvation from it. Like all true religious ritual, it serves as a blessing for us all but most importantly it reminds about how we are to live our lives all year round. So, from a more "traditional" perspective (if I can call it that), Pesach tells us about andbrings us back to one thing in salvation history and we are told to have no chametz in our home, but we also meet our Passover lamb today in unleavened bread every time we have communion (this is one reason we must always use unleavened bread in remembrance of not only the Pesach but also in the remembrance of the Passover Lamb- the Lamb without sin).

I guess what I'm trying to say in the usual long-winded manner is that leaven represents sin only during Pesach and (for me) communion. Leaven is used to illustrate the effects of sin homiletically of course, and that can happen anytime of the year, but ceremonially it only represents sin during those special ceremonial and sacramental times.

As for your comments about what a Gentile perceives about selling Chametz- that is a good point. However, isn't it easy for anyone to mis-understand the workings of anyone else's religion? All we need to do is be better witnesses and explain things properly- I don;t pretend to know all the answers that a Gentile or Jew might bring up about this, but I can only do my best and hope they get something from our witness.

Now, I understand we differ, but I really think you make a good point. This year, I've done a good job of cleaning the place, but I will still go through the tradition of selling my chametz- maybe I just can't help myself but I have never really seen any benefit to dropping what I personally take to be a beautiful tradition. I'm just wired that way I guess. :)Thank you for that lovely explanation, I can see you point but I guess I am of the school of not transgressing the commandment for the sake of tradition.

I think HaShem used leaven, or yeast to represent it. No, yeast isn't sin, but it is something ever present. I learned this on a cooking show of all places. I was watching a chef teach how to make sourdough bread and how to make your own starter. The lesson he gave hit me between the eyes and I realized then why Hashem used this, because it was everywhere at all times! it floats in the air just looking for a proper environment to 'be fruitful and multiply' in. It reminds me of what Peter said.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. .........

Just looking for an environment to settle in, like yeast.


This may be why the L-RD decided to sent them bread from heaven, this bread had no leaven, is was sinless. And that sustained them through wars, travel and all kinds of adversity, and that manna, as John tells us that came down from heaven represented the true Passover lamb, Yeshua.

Yes, leavened bread is around all year, but if we can go without for seven days, why not more? And why, if the leaven products represent sin, why take them back? If you see the lesson in the physical that it is sin, then when you take it back in the form of bread, what prevents or gives the lesson to not do it in other areas of life? See what I'm saying? I just think it takes away from what Hashem was trying to teach, and basically shows us we only need Yeshua for seven days? No, we need him everyday because the world is full of leavened bread!

And for me I learned this lesson two fold because my bread isn't like others bread. And the gluten that is in bread is in so many things you would never think of , just like most peolpe if being dilegent in their search for leaven and yeast have found it hides in soups, and sauces, and things where it is used just for 'flavoring' but like the smallest amount of gluten to me, it is harmful, the effects can't always be seen right away, but your body goes through a war.

For those that don't understand what Celiac disease is, we are basically allergic to anything with gluten in it, even the tiniest amount and I mean microscopic. The smallest amount will cause a reaction, but unlike other allergies, it attacks the body. Our bodies mistake it as an enemy and go full force to destroy it. And in the midst of this war parts of our bodies, intestinal are destroyed. The specific parts are what is very important, the areas that absorbs all the nutrients in the foods we eat. And because of malabsorbtion of these nutrients we can then get other diseases, and it can lead to death. But this is a great example as well of what sin does to us. Even the littlest amount like a yeast particle in the air, does have an effect on us, though we don't see it till it's too late. And really we are helpless to combat it alone, which leads us back to the realization that we NEED the L-RD and we need his redeemption that he sent, Yeshua.:bow:

( Apologies to Contra, I just felt inspired to write all that, but it's not directed all at you, JSYK):)

[HaReb]

It wasn't, for me, the fact of the leaven that was the main thing - that was symbolic. It was the fact of the energy used to wipe it all out! If we only put half that energy etc., daily, into fighting sin and inequality in the world how much better a place would it be. The real contradiction is in doing something to make ourselves fit to eat the Passover but thereafter what do we do with such gusto to make us fit to eat the great Feast in the Kingdom? Let's not get sidetracked into thinking just of the hametz - that of itself is not the real point!

[Lulav]

Again I see I have not explained myself well, such is the life of a celiac with brain fog from recent poisoning and trying to post inbetween getting ready for the Seder as I am hosting, and doing all the cooking, including I had to make my own matzah!

So I will just say this, that I absolutely agree with you and leave it at that. :)

[Lulav]

I guess what I am trying to say is, and I think this agrees with what you are saying is that we hcan ave a 'misplaced diligence' to only focus on the physical and not the spiritual as well. I think today this should be more of a lesson, or one would think as we can't really do this all in one day, it takes days of cleaning, searching out, thinking of where things could be hidden, now only to apply that to our souls, but take this week long lesson and hiatus from it and transform it into a way of life for all the year.

[ChavaK]

Part of an article I recently read regarding chametz and sin:

Chametz is a symbol of evil in the world and represents sin. What Chametz really is in effect, is puffed up matzah. This "puffed up"-ness represents pride, materialism, and laziness. It is left alone to rise and you do not have to continually work on it. On Pesach, we get rid of our Chametz by both physically destroying it (Bi'ur Chametz ), and by intellectually nullifying it (Bitul Chametz ). So too with sin, we have to make an intellectual decision to nullify it, but we also have to physically destroy it.

If chametz represents sin, why do we start eating it again right after Pesach? Even Shavuot, the holiday right after Pesach, has grain offerings!

This is to teach us that there is no such thing as objective and irredeemable evil. The same ingredients that make chametz (sin) are also those that make matzot (mitzvot). The reason for this is that anything can be good as long as you watch it.

In Hebrew, the words chametz and matzah are spelled very similarly. The only difference in the letters of the two words is the chet and the heh. These two letters themselves are very similar; the only difference is a small dot of ink. Just like we have to take care in writing these letters, making sure not to turn our hehs into chets, so to we have to be careful in how we live our lives. We must live lives of matzah/mitzvot, and not let them turn into lives of chametz /sin.

What is the difference between the flour and water that make up chametz and the flour and water that make up matzah? Basically, it is our active involvement in, and concern for the mitzvah. Our involvement and care in doing mitzvot determine what kinds of lives we are going to live-- lives of chametz or lives of matzah.

The goal in Judaism is to take that which has the potential for evil and make it into good. It is in this way that we try to bring Moshiach

[Lulav]

I guess what I am trying to say is, and I think this agrees with what you are saying is that we hcan ave a 'misplaced diligence' to only focus on the physical and not the spiritual as well. I think today this should be more of a lesson, or one would think as we can't really do this all in one day, it takes days of cleaning, searching out, thinking of where things could be hidden, now only to apply that to our souls, but take this week long lesson and hiatus from it and transform it into a way of life for all the year. I am quoting myself here to point out what I was referring to as my brain fog,. This post is a good example and I quoted it so you an see , i was going to edit, but thought it was a good example. Notice what I highlighted, now maybe you can see what my brain is doing, when the chemicals like msg get in or gluten this is what happens to my thoughts and as you can see, my words and also spelling. :doh:

[Lulav]

Part of an article I recently read regarding chametz and sin:

Chametz is a symbol of evil in the world and represents sin. What Chametz really is in effect, is puffed up matzah. This "puffed up"-ness represents pride, materialism, and laziness. It is left alone to rise and you do not have to continually work on it. On Pesach, we get rid of our Chametz by both physically destroying it (Bi'ur Chametz ), and by intellectually nullifying it (Bitul Chametz ). So too with sin, we have to make an intellectual decision to nullify it, but we also have to physically destroy it.

If chametz represents sin, why do we start eating it again right after Pesach? Even Shavuot, the holiday right after Pesach, has grain offerings!

This is to teach us that there is no such thing as objective and irredeemable evil. The same ingredients that make chametz (sin) are also those that make matzot (mitzvot). The reason for this is that anything can be good as long as you watch it.

In Hebrew, the words chametz and matzah are spelled very similarly. The only difference in the letters of the two words is the chet and the heh. These two letters themselves are very similar; the only difference is a small dot of ink. Just like we have to take care in writing these letters, making sure not to turn our hehs into chets, so to we have to be careful in how we live our lives. We must live lives of matzah/mitzvot, and not let them turn into lives of chametz /sin.

What is the difference between the flour and water that make up chametz and the flour and water that make up matzah? Basically, it is our active involvement in, and concern for the mitzvah. Our involvement and care in doing mitzvot determine what kinds of lives we are going to live-- lives of chametz or lives of matzah.

The goal in Judaism is to take that which has the potential for evil and make it into good. It is in this way that we try to bring Moshiach
I read that same article, can't remember where though. But I see why we have such a hard time communicating, because we believe that we had nothing to do with Moschiach coming, that he came when HaShem knew the time was right. Now as far as him coming again, it is dependent on what Jews do, for sure, he even said so, but many refuse to do this, as a nation, so we all wait. :)

[HaReb]

I guess what I am trying to say is, and I think this agrees with what you are saying is that we hcan ave a 'misplaced diligence' to only focus on the physical and not the spiritual as well. I think today this should be more of a lesson, or one would think as we can't really do this all in one day, it takes days of cleaning, searching out, thinking of where things could be hidden, now only to apply that to our souls, but take this week long lesson and hiatus from it and transform it into a way of life for all the year

My post was a general observation Lulav and not pointed at any one person - we were getting bogged down in discussing the hametz rather than the point I was trying to make :)

[HaReb]

Oh dear - this forum gets worse - the post above this one is NOT what I posted!!!! I'll go back and try and amend it!



Niow we are back to serious site probelsm again. I get no lines across on this forum. I now get blue text as thread headers and it takes ages to load the page or post a reply! I know it effectively close down in a day or so but....!!!

[ContraMundum]

when you get right down to it, how the seder plate is set up,
how the seder is done, none of that is "scriptural" ;)

Egg-zactly! :)

[HaReb]

Really eggciting, too, and very eggstrordinary, for such an eggacting task.

Put in all the words in order to not eggclude anyone!

[Torah613]

a most avocadoful post HaReb!

Yochanan

[HaReb]

I thought it was a good yoke! (er, joke I mean)

[ChavaK]

I read that same article, can't remember where though.
It's an old article from Divrei Bet Hillel....

[Torah613]

I saw it, and couldn't resist my avocado comment. Humor is the spice of life no? Sometimes I feel we just get too serious with all the stress of getting ready for Pesach and forget the joy of it all.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

So true,. I am taking a break from ironing my contrary table cloth and watching the birds in my backyard, there are may, many doves, a blue jay or tow, lots of sparrows, a couple of cardinals and a lady red headed woodpecker that keeps making regular visits. The doves spend most of their time in courtship rituals now, taking a break now and then to get a sip of water from the birdbath or some seed from the feeders. . I have the slider open and a lovely spring breeze is coming in. It's warm today about 70 and the trees surrounding me are in lt green bud. The daffodils are blooming and I have hyacinths by the armful filling the air with their sweet fragrance.

Yes, life is good and spring is the most wonderful time!

Baruch HaShem!

[ContraMundum]

Really eggciting, too, and very eggstrordinary, for such an eggacting task.

Put in all the words in order to not eggclude anyone!

...but let's not eggsaggerate. :)

[HaReb]

Eggcept you, or are you eggstra special and therefore to be eggcluded* from the rules? :D

I must say, on reading the rules, there is an element of eneggmatism to them, which makes them hard to follow, and there are very few eggceptions, though with a little thought and some eggstrapolation on what is there, it is possible to live a purely eggstrovert life to the full without too much trouble.



* Oh bother, first repetition!

[ContraMundum]

Eggcept you, or are you eggstra special and therefore to be eggcluded* from the rules? :D

I must say, on reading the rules, there is an element of eneggmatism to them, which makes them hard to follow, and there are very few eggceptions, though with a little thought and some eggstrapolation on what is there, it is possible to live a purely eggstrovert life to the full without too much trouble.



* Oh bother, first repetition!

Don;t worry about the repetition....you've eggcelled eggstraordinarily!

[Lulav]

Alright, stop, can't you see the OP has left long ago, his stomach turned by all these eggtraordinary comments. :eek:

You guys are too much. Did you use an eggcyclopedia to find all those words? :)