How did Abraham know to keep the towrah and the mitzvahs?

[TrustAndObey]

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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[TrustAndObey]

Moses wrote the towrah years after Abraham...I thought?

:)

[TrustAndObey]

One of the definitions for "mitsvah" in Strong's is a commandment of MAN, but I'm not finding any verses that fit that definition. Do you guys know of any?

Gen 45:21 And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

Pharaoh's commandments weren't called mitsvah. In fact, it looks like (at least that I've found) even when Moses gives commandment it's called "peh".

The entire act of God giving a commandment (or even Moses repeating God's commandments TO people) is called tsavah (a commanded covenant?).

I don't see "mitsvah" being used (except in regards to Abraham in Gen 26:5) again until Exodus 15:26 and until Exodus 16 where God asks how long the children of Israel are going to continue to break His commandment of the Sabbath (before Sinai).

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[annie1speed]

Hi Trust,

I would ask a question but I smell a set up. ;)

So I'll just say HI. :pink:

[TrustAndObey]

Helloooo Annie (said in my best Jerry Seinfeld voice....lol)!

[TrustAndObey]

People discussing their beliefs in their own denominational forum isn't a set up....promise!

[honorthesabbath]

Set up???? ROFL!!!

[TrustAndObey]

I'm also finding where God gave a commandment outside the law that it's called "peh" as well.

Num 33:38 And Aaron the priest went up into mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the first day of the fifth month.

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[honorthesabbath]

Lainie--this is a great study. I am so thankful that NOW we have a forum that has a atmosphere conducive to study. Thank God for peace and safety.

[TrustAndObey]

Thanks Honor, I go through spurts of being like a sponge and wanting to know everything! I do that better in a friendly environment.

I'm still going through all the verses that use mitsvah and I'm not finding any that aren't associated with God's law.

I've heard people say that Abraham obeying God's instruction to give Isaac as a burnt offering was a "commandment" and that's what Genesis 26:5 refers to...but it's not a mitsvah!!

[TrustAndObey]

It feels really good to be back in the Word. I've missed it.

[oldsage]

One of the definitions for "mitsvah" in Strong's is a commandment of MAN, but I'm not finding any verses that fit that definition. Do you guys know of any?
Aside from the fact I detest Strong's here is a verse:

CJB 1 Kings 2:43 Why, then, haven't you kept the oath of ADONAI and the mitzvah I charged you with?"

[oldsage]

If you plan on looking them all up there are 177 verses which has that word 184 times Deuteronomy has the highest use of it at 42 times.

Good luck and happy searching ;)

[TrustAndObey]

I detest Strong's too. Dr. Strong said Sunday is the Lord's Day and he has absolutely no BIBLICAL support for that!

[TrustAndObey]

Which concordance do you use Oldsage?

[TrustAndObey]

Oldsage, I'm thinking you're wrong about that verse. I just looked it up and it's talking about a commandment of God and the word "tsavah" is used "commanded you". Tsavah appears only to be used when a commandment from God is given (no matter who it is given by).

I'll look deeper though.

I won't count you out as a heretic (hairy tick) just yet. :)

[oldsage]

Which concordance do you use Oldsage?

ummm..concordance? I have Bibleworks so all you have to do is type a word and it finds all occurrences of it.

But I think you are talking which Lexicons I use. Here is a list of the resources I have just with Bibleworks.

Granted I don't use all of them all the time but for Greek I use BDAG, Liddell-Scott, and Louw-Nida Greek New Testament Lexicon based on Semantic Domains.

For Hebrew I use mostly HALOT and BDB.

Lexical-Grammatical References


A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament: Based on the Lexical Work of Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner (Holladay)
A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint, Volumes 1 & 2 (Lust, Eynikel & Hauspie, with Chamberlain)
Abridged (Strong's) BDB Hebrew Lexicon
Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English/-French/-Russian Lexicons
Abridged Thayer's Greek Lexicon
Bauer, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon
Beginner’s Grammar of the Greek New Testament (Davis)
Beginning Biblical Hebrew (full text), by Mark Futato
Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1905 (unabridged)
CATSS/Tov Hebrew-Greek Parallel Aligned Text
Friberg’s Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Complete 2000 edition
Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar
Grammar of Septuagint Greek (Conybeare & Stock)
A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, 3rd edition (Robertson)
Greek and Hebrew paradigm charts (revised)
Greek Enchiridion: A Concise Handbook of Grammar and Exegesis (MacDonald)
Greek Grammar beyond the Basics, by Daniel Wallace (locked)
Greek Grammar Handbook (MacDonald)
Greek New Testament Diagrams (Leedy)
Greek NT Vocabulary Sound Files (Schwandt)
Hebrew Vocabulary Sound Files (Verbruggen)
Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, by Waltke and O'Connor (locked)
Koehler-Baumgartner Hebrew Lexicon
Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicon, Abridged
Louw-Nida Greek New Testament Lexicon based on Semantic Domains, Second Edition
Moods and Tenses of New Testament Greek (Burton)
Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament (Archer & Chirichigno)
The Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Revised Edition (Gingrich/Danker)
TEXTKRITIK des Neuen Testaments (Gregory)
Textual Commentary on the Greek NT (Metzger)
Thayer Greek Lexicon (unabridged)
The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Harris, Archer & Waltke)
UBS Greek-English Concise Dictionary of the New Testament (Barclay M. Newman)
Wigram’s Tense, Voice, Mood codes for some English, German, Dutch, French and Russian Bibles Reference Works


Charles, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha English translation
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Fausset Bible Dictionary
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915)
James, New Testament Apocrypha English translation
Matthew Henry's Commentary
Metzger's Bible Outline
Nave's Topical Index
Synopsis of the Gospels (editable)
Timelines: Biblical, Church, and Secular History
Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge
Westminster Confessional Standards Essential Modules


A Greek-English Lexicon, 9th Revised Edition (Liddell, Scott, Jones & McKenzie)
A Primer of Biblical Greek (Croy)
An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Waltke & O’Connor)
The Aramaic New Testament (Peshitta) Database
Biblical Greek (Zerwick)
Beginning Biblical Hebrew (Futato)
CNTTS Critical Apparatus
Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Balz & Schneider)
A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, 2006 edition (Paul Joüon, S.J. and Takamitsu Muraoka)
Grammar of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic (Stevenson)
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Wallace)
Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Blass, Debrunner & Funk)
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition (Bauer, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich)
Griechisch-deutsches Taschenwörterbuch zum Neuen Testament, 8th Edition (Preuschen)
Practical Grammar for Classical Hebrew (Weingreen)
Qumran Sectarian Manuscripts
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Koehler, Baumgartner & Stamm)
The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts (Comfort & Barrett)
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged (Kittel, Friedrich & Bromiley)
Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament (Moulton & Milligan)

[oldsage]

Oldsage, I'm thinking you're wrong about that verse. I just looked it up and it's talking about a commandment of God and the word "tsavah" is used "commanded you". Tsavah appears only to be used when a commandment from God is given (no matter who it is given by).

I'll look deeper though.

I won't count you out as a heretic (hairy tick) just yet. :)

1 Kings 2:42-43 42 The king summoned Shim'i and said to him, "Didn't I have you swear by ADONAI and forewarn you by telling you, 'Know for a fact that on the day you leave and go anywhere outside the city, you will certainly die'? and you answered me, 'What you're saying is good; I hear it.' 43 Why, then, haven't you kept the oath of ADONAI and the mitzvah I charged you with?"

"charged" is the word "tsavah". The mitzvah is mentioned in verse
42 'Know for a fact that on the day you leave and go anywhere outside the city, you will certainly die'.

This mitzvah didn't come from God but from Solomon.

Another example:
CJB 2 Kings 18:36 ¶ But the people kept still and didn't answer him so much as a word; for the king's order was, "Don't answer him."

The word "order" is "mitzvah"

:wave:

Blessings,
Chris

[TrustAndObey]

ummm..concordance? I have Bibleworks so all you have to do is type a word and it finds all occurrences of it.

But I think you are talking which Lexicons I use. Here is a list of the resources I have just with Bibleworks.

Granted I don't use all of them all the time but for Greek I use BDAG, Liddell-Scott, and Louw-Nida Greek New Testament Lexicon based on Semantic Domains.

For Hebrew I use mostly HALOT and BDB.

Lexical-Grammatical References

A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament: Based on the Lexical Work of Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner (Holladay)
A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint, Volumes 1 & 2 (Lust, Eynikel & Hauspie, with Chamberlain)
Abridged (Strong's) BDB Hebrew Lexicon
Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English/-French/-Russian Lexicons
Abridged Thayer's Greek Lexicon
Bauer, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon
Beginner’s Grammar of the Greek New Testament (Davis)
Beginning Biblical Hebrew (full text), by Mark Futato
Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1905 (unabridged)
CATSS/Tov Hebrew-Greek Parallel Aligned Text
Friberg’s Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Complete 2000 edition
Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar
Grammar of Septuagint Greek (Conybeare & Stock)
A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, 3rd edition (Robertson)
Greek and Hebrew paradigm charts (revised)
Greek Enchiridion: A Concise Handbook of Grammar and Exegesis (MacDonald)
Greek Grammar beyond the Basics, by Daniel Wallace (locked)
Greek Grammar Handbook (MacDonald)
Greek New Testament Diagrams (Leedy)
Greek NT Vocabulary Sound Files (Schwandt)
Hebrew Vocabulary Sound Files (Verbruggen)
Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, by Waltke and O'Connor (locked)
Koehler-Baumgartner Hebrew Lexicon
Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicon, Abridged
Louw-Nida Greek New Testament Lexicon based on Semantic Domains, Second Edition
Moods and Tenses of New Testament Greek (Burton)
Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament (Archer & Chirichigno)
The Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Revised Edition (Gingrich/Danker)
TEXTKRITIK des Neuen Testaments (Gregory)
Textual Commentary on the Greek NT (Metzger)
Thayer Greek Lexicon (unabridged)
The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Harris, Archer & Waltke)
UBS Greek-English Concise Dictionary of the New Testament (Barclay M. Newman)
Wigram’s Tense, Voice, Mood codes for some English, German, Dutch, French and Russian BiblesReference Works

Charles, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha English translation
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Fausset Bible Dictionary
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915)
James, New Testament Apocrypha English translation
Matthew Henry's Commentary
Metzger's Bible Outline
Nave's Topical Index
Synopsis of the Gospels (editable)
Timelines: Biblical, Church, and Secular History
Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge
Westminster Confessional StandardsEssential Modules

A Greek-English Lexicon, 9th Revised Edition (Liddell, Scott, Jones & McKenzie)
A Primer of Biblical Greek (Croy)
An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Waltke & O’Connor)
The Aramaic New Testament (Peshitta) Database
Biblical Greek (Zerwick)
Beginning Biblical Hebrew (Futato)
CNTTS Critical Apparatus
Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Balz & Schneider)
A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, 2006 edition (Paul Joüon, S.J. and Takamitsu Muraoka)
Grammar of Palestinian Jewish Aramaic (Stevenson)
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Wallace)
Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Blass, Debrunner & Funk)
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition (Bauer, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich)
Griechisch-deutsches Taschenwörterbuch zum Neuen Testament, 8th Edition (Preuschen)
Practical Grammar for Classical Hebrew (Weingreen)
Qumran Sectarian Manuscripts
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Koehler, Baumgartner & Stamm)
The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts (Comfort & Barrett)
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged (Kittel, Friedrich & Bromiley)
Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament (Moulton & Milligan)

Well now it's definitely just a plan fact that you and my husband really are twins separated at birth!

[TrustAndObey]

1 Kings 2:42-43 42 The king summoned Shim'i and said to him, "Didn't I have you swear by ADONAI and forewarn you by telling you, 'Know for a fact that on the day you leave and go anywhere outside the city, you will certainly die'? and you answered me, 'What you're saying is good; I hear it.' 43 Why, then, haven't you kept the oath of ADONAI and the mitzvah I charged you with?"

"charged" is the word "tsavah". The mitzvah is mentioned in verse
42 'Know for a fact that on the day you leave and go anywhere outside the city, you will certainly die'.

This mitzvah didn't come from God but from Solomon.

Another example:
CJB 2 Kings 18:36 ¶ But the people kept still and didn't answer him so much as a word; for the king's order was, "Don't answer him."

The word "order" is "mitzvah"

:wave:

Blessings,
Chris

I did mean lexicon by the way. Stressful week. :)

I guess Dr. Strong wasn't completely off on this one like others I've seen then.

In Gen 26:5, God specifically says "MY" commandments, statutes, and law.

The very next time you see mitsvah used in scripture, it's talking about the Sabbath, and then later the laws written on stone.

What about Towrah, Oldsage? Is it always given by God only (or through a mediator FOR God)?

Use your fancy smancy book learning on THAT one!

[oldsage]

I did mean lexicon by the way. Stressful week. :)

I guess Dr. Strong wasn't completely off on this one like others I've seen then.

In Gen 26:5, God specifically says "MY" commandments, statutes, and law.

The very next time you see mitsvah used in scripture, it's talking about the Sabbath, and then later the laws written on stone.

What about Towrah, Oldsage? Is it always given by God only (or through a mediator FOR God)?

Use your fancy smancy book learning on THAT one!

Proverbs 1:8 :preach:

[TrustAndObey]

Proverbs 1:8 :preach:

That's all ya got?

I've seen you get increasingly lazy over the years. I remember when you used to post the whole verse for me.

Bwhahahaha.

Oh Hairy Tick, what am I ever going to do with you?

One could argue, you know, that the towrah of the mother is to honor her like GOD said. :)

[TrustAndObey]

So what about Jeremiah 31:33? It's "My" (God's) towrah....so what is that exactly?

[oldsage]

So what about Jeremiah 31:33? It's "My" (God's) towrah....so what is that exactly?
They are all of God's instructions.

[TrustAndObey]

They are all of God's instructions.

I agree. So how did Abraham know to keep them if they hadn't been "written" yet?

:)

[TrustAndObey]

PS...did you miss me calling you Hairy Tick, Heretic? ;)

[oldsage]

I agree. So how did Abraham know to keep them if they hadn't been "written" yet?

:)
I believe there was an oral tradition which may or may not have also been written down. But we do know Abraham seems to know the will of God.

But we also have to look at the type of literature the book of Genesis is. This is just a book of origins and not a book of commandments. I believe the principles of the moral laws and sacrifices were already known at Abraham's time as can be seen by his actions and such.

Also Genesis was written down by Moses and he is writing from the perspective and language of his own time. So, when Moses says, commandments, statues, and laws, he is thinking from his own point of view what those words mean.

[oldsage]

PS...did you miss me calling you Hairy Tick, Heretic? ;)
Not many can get away with it because my buddies :groupray: will gang up on ya :cool:

[TrustAndObey]

I believe there was an oral tradition which may or may not have also been written down. But we do know Abraham seems to know the will of God.

But we also have to look at the type of literature the book of Genesis is. This is just a book of origins and not a book of commandments. I believe the principles of the moral laws and sacrifices were already known at Abraham's time as can be seen by his actions and such.

Also Genesis was written down by Moses and he is writing from the perspective and language of his own time. So, when Moses says, commandments, statues, and laws, he is thinking from his own point of view what those words mean.

:hug: :thumbsup: :clap: :pray: :wave:

I couldn't have said it better myself (well, with prettier font maybe).

[TrustAndObey]

Not many can get away with it because my buddies :groupray: will gang up on ya :cool:

You and the hairy ticklins?

:ebil: