"Us Orthodox are not literalists."

[Orthodox Andrew]

I have heard this statment a million times when talking to Prests about the Bible. However, ever time I ask them if something is literal I.E. Jonah and the whale, Noah's Ark etc.. They tell me that I'm to undertsand them as literal stories. My question is, what exactly are we not literal about?

[Eusebios]

It seems to me that perhaps what may more accurately be said of our exegetical methods is that we are not merely literalists.Though we are prepared to take things literally, we are also willing to look more deeply into the ramifications of passages. Let us take for instance the single word,Jerusalem. We look at it as an historical city in The Holy land. This is it's literal meaning. Secondly it is a symbol or type of the Church, this is it's allegorical or typological meaning. Next, it is an image of the redeemed yet struggling Christian soul, this is the moral sense. Finally it can be viewed as the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, this is the future or anagogical meaning.(much credit for this line of thought needs to be given to Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon as I am heavily reliant on his work in forming this analogy)
So, while we may take things literally, we look at them a;so in a much deeper way, thus we are more than just literalists. These "four senses" of scriptural interpretation have been part of Orthodox exegesis since the late fourth century, when an obscure monk, Nestoros, laboring in the Egyptian desert set them forth.
Hope this helps some.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks, that does help.:)

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Jonah And Noah were Very much literal.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Here's a topic I have a question about that ties directly to literalism: Roman Catholics believe their church began with St. Peter when Christ said "Upon this rock I shall build my church" (my paraphrase). Now, I think the Orthodox Church interprets this verse differently, and therefore not in a literal sense. How does the Orthodox Church interpret that verse?

[Rilian]

Here ya' go GDE - The verse in question (http://www.assumptioncathedral.org/about/answer.asp?faq_id=23)

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Christ is seen as the Rock of our church.

[nyj]

Roman Catholics believe their church began with St. Peter when Christ said "Upon this rock I shall build my church" (my paraphrase).
Actually, I'm pretty sure as Catholics we celebrate Pentecost as the "birth of the Church". :)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Thanks, Rilian!:)

NYI: I think you knew what I meant.:P

[Patristic]

I definitely understand the Jonah story literally because the book seems to talk about actual historical events. To place some exaggerated or fictional event smack in the middle of a book that on the surface seems to be describing history doesn't make much sense to me. Although if one wanted to argue that this story was symbolic it wouldn't hurt to argue that it has it's roots in the Greek story of Arion and the dolphin, which is the story of a minstrel who was thrown overboard and saved by dolphins. The Jonah and the whale story could be a Hebraic retelling of that story to relate a specific moral or spiritual teaching. Anyways, just a possibility.

[linden branch]

Actually, I'm pretty sure as Catholics we celebrate Pentecost as the "birth of the Church". :)I have been left with the impression that this isn't the case by several traditional Catholics whom I have occasion to speak with at another forum. Do you mind if I ask there and see what they say? You can locate the forum by searching for Crowhill Forums on Google.

[The Prokeimenon!]

I personally think the Jonah story is historical. The great thing about Orthodoxy, though, is that we are not confined to believe that everything is either literal or symbolic. Most of the stories in the Old Testament have real historical content and symbolic content. It's "both/and", not "either/or" :)

it has it's roots in the Greek story of Arion and the dolphin, which is the story of a minstrel who was thrown overboard and saved by dolphins.

I'm not familiar with the Greek story, but this raises a great point. We know that Christ came in the fullness of time, when the world stage was perfect for His coming. Could it be that God prepared the Greeks for reception of the Gospel by guiding them in this myth, so that when they heard the story of Jonah, and learned that it was a foreshadowing of Christ's 3-days in the tomb and Resurrection, their hearts were prepared to accept it? This is pure speculation on my part, but it does seem that there are myths in many cultures that mirror, to a greater or lesser extent, the truth contained in the Scriptures. I'm sure there could be many explanations for this, but it's neat to ponder... I think I'm way off topic. Okay, I'm done rambling now :)

Moses

[Patristic]

I'm not familiar with the Greek story, but this raises a great point. We know that Christ came in the fullness of time, when the world stage was perfect for His coming. Could it be that God prepared the Greeks for reception of the Gospel by guiding them in this myth, so that when they heard the story of Jonah, and learned that it was a foreshadowing of Christ's 3-days in the tomb and Resurrection, their hearts were prepared to accept it? This is pure speculation on my part, but it does seem that there are myths in many cultures that mirror, to a greater or lesser extent, the truth contained in the Scriptures. I'm sure there could be many explanations for this, but it's neat to ponder... I think I'm way off topic. Okay, I'm done rambling now
I think this is a valid point. One thing I noticed while studying ancient Greek was that many stories had points of similarity with Old Testament events. The story of Pandora's box in some ways resembles the events concerning Eve in Genesis 2 and 3. The story of Pyrrah and Deucalion has it's similarities with Noah's Ark.

[Moros]

I think what is meant by understanding these possbile allegories as literal is that even if a story is not 100% factual, or rather that you suspect it is not 100% factual, it should be read as such so you do not doubt it's message (which could lead to doubting God) and fall into apostasy.

[Patristic]

I think what is meant by understanding these possbile allegories as literal is that even if a story is not 100% factual, or rather that you suspect it is not 100% factual, it should be read as such so you do not doubt it's message (which could lead to doubting God) and fall into apostasy.
I agree! I think too much allegorizing could lead to doubting God.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I personally think the Jonah story is historical. The great thing about Orthodoxy, though, is that we are not confined to believe that everything is either literal or symbolic. Most of the stories in the Old Testament have real historical content and symbolic content. It's "both/and", not "either/or" :)



I'm not familiar with the Greek story, but this raises a great point. We know that Christ came in the fullness of time, when the world stage was perfect for His coming. Could it be that God prepared the Greeks for reception of the Gospel by guiding them in this myth, so that when they heard the story of Jonah, and learned that it was a foreshadowing of Christ's 3-days in the tomb and Resurrection, their hearts were prepared to accept it? This is pure speculation on my part, but it does seem that there are myths in many cultures that mirror, to a greater or lesser extent, the truth contained in the Scriptures. I'm sure there could be many explanations for this, but it's neat to ponder... I think I'm way off topic. Okay, I'm done rambling now :)

Moses
That's a very interesting observation, Moses, concerning the similarities of various cultural myths with Biblical stories and truths! The priest at my church spoke about this in a church history class. I can't recall all the examples he gave, but it was very interesting. I was doing some reading yesterday about the Yanomamo Indians of Venezuela and Brazil (the oldest and most isolated indian population in the world), and a certain cultural practice of theirs caught my eye. When a loved one dies, the family/friends of the departed grinds up the bones of their body and drinks them. This is done because they believe by doing this they will keep the departed person with them forever. Contrast that with the teaching of the Eucharist. Kind of interesting, isn't it? This culture has never been exposed to Christianity.

And also, I had to chuckle a bit about the "both/and" thing. In inquirers class, every time someone asks the priest about whether a certain scripture should be taken literally or figuratively, his reply is always "Yes.";)

[Eusebios]

I agree! I think too much allegorizing could lead to doubting God.
This was certainly a problem in Alexandria, and led to much tension in the early Church. That is why it is important to take a balanced view, as outlined in Nestoros' four-way approach.
Under His Mercy,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Eusebios]

And also, I had to chuckle a bit about the "both/and" thing. In inquirers class, every time someone asks the priest about whether a certain scripture should be taken literally or figuratively, his reply is always "Yes.";)
GDE,
LOL! I love it, sounds like something our priest would do! Those whacky Orthodox priests! ;)
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:wave:

[Reader Nilus]

When it comes to books like Jonah, say it is history, so I would ask how does that affect you the reader, is it some interesting facts about a fellow swallowed by a fish and lived to tell the tale? Is the meaning of the story about how God deals with us humans, in our sins and how he is merciful and longsuffering? I think in our times we are hung up with the idea if it could not be filmed it is not true. The book of Jonah itself is nameless, so that is an indication that the events were story, but that does not make it not true. Jesus told parables, little short pieces of fiction if you will, does that make them devoid of meaning?
Some historical facts mean zippo to our live's and are good only to win trivia games, others like the Gospels become the very basis for Life itself, but that moves beyond facts to become present in my day to day existence. So for me at least it does not matter if Jonah is history like we moderns think of history or not, the point of the story be it a long parable or a factual account is the same.
Jeff the Finn

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

When it comes to books like Jonah, say it is history, so I would ask how does that affect you the reader, is it some interesting facts about a fellow swallowed by a fish and lived to tell the tale? Is the meaning of the story about how God deals with us humans, in our sins and how he is merciful and longsuffering? I think in our times we are hung up with the idea if it could not be filmed it is not true. The book of Jonah itself is nameless, so that is an indication that the events were story, but that does not make it not true. Jesus told parables, little short pieces of fiction if you will, does that make them devoid of meaning?
Some historical facts mean zippo to our live's and are good only to win trivia games, others like the Gospels become the very basis for Life itself, but that moves beyond facts to become present in my day to day existence. So for me at least it does not matter if Jonah is history like we moderns think of history or not, the point of the story be it a long parable or a factual account is the same.
Jeff the Finn
Very True Jeff. God Bless.

[The Prokeimenon!]

When it comes to books like Jonah, say it is history, so I would ask how does that affect you the reader, is it some interesting facts about a fellow swallowed by a fish and lived to tell the tale? Is the meaning of the story about how God deals with us humans, in our sins and how he is merciful and longsuffering? I think in our times we are hung up with the idea if it could not be filmed it is not true. The book of Jonah itself is nameless, so that is an indication that the events were story, but that does not make it not true. Jesus told parables, little short pieces of fiction if you will, does that make them devoid of meaning?
Some historical facts mean zippo to our live's and are good only to win trivia games, others like the Gospels become the very basis for Life itself, but that moves beyond facts to become present in my day to day existence. So for me at least it does not matter if Jonah is history like we moderns think of history or not, the point of the story be it a long parable or a factual account is the same.
Jeff the Finn


Bingo! :)

Moses

[Plan 9]

I can't help but feel that any story which teaches the exact same moral and ethical lessons whether taken figuratively or literally is a very special story indeed.
As someone whose spiritual journey began with the reading of The Lord of the Rings, which informed my heart in a manner which I'm still, after all these years, at a loss to describe, it's not possible for me to underestimate the power of allegory in my own life, and I treasure the Bible for offering me so very many wonderful stories of this nature. :)

[Eusebios]

You are always a most welcome "lurker" Planny!
:wave:
Eusebios.

[Plan 9]

awww...:blush:

This is a wonderful discussion! :)

[Eusebios]

We occasionally have those here, and then sometimes....
:doh: