Another Waco?

[honorthesabbath]

When this story first broke--my first thought was--'OH NO-another blood-bath courtesy of the US government against it's own citizens practicing their religion.' But I guess the Mormons learned a harsh lesson after Waco--'DON'T DEFEND YOURSELVES--THE GOVERNMENT HAS TANKS'!

Since I didn't take the time to ask this author for permission to post his article here , I'm just going to post the link so any interested in this may go read it and then comment.

It seems that the very government liberals who are so gung-ho to 'protect' children are the very ones who CONSISTENTLY harm and kill them. All one needs to do nowadays is say 'child' and you can get nailed to the wall.

Also ever notice that when the media is talking about a non-mainstream religious campus--it's referred to as 'COMPOUND'?

http://www.newswithviews.com/NWV-News/news42.htm

Any thoughts on this?

[TrustAndObey]

My mom and I talked about this last night.

She and I were both very upset because there is nothing scarier as a child than being separated from your parents.

The scariest part of it is that they're asking for foster volunteers to come and get these children since there are not enough registered foster parents in Texas right now.

Do background checks not mean anything anymore?

They could be taking all of these children away from their parents, where there was absolutely no abuse whatsoever, and PUTTING them into a dangerous situation(s).

I'm outraged. This is exactly what an anonymous phone call can do!

And the harsh reality is that when a foster family does take in a child(ren), they're going to tell them that they need protection and that their parents are bad people, EVEN IF the child says "no, I loved my family and I had a good home."

April 19th....that date always seems to have this kind of governmental garbage surrounding it. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

We need to say some SERIOUS prayers for these children and ask God to rescue them. The government's idea of "rescue" is a far cry from mine!

[TrustAndObey]

I'd also like to note that no matter WHAT you think about the Mormon religion, these people LOVE their children and surprise surprise, they love our God just as much as we do.

The job of Child Protection Services is to maintain family unity...yet in recent years, that's definitely not what they've been trying to do. They separate a family on "what if" and ask questions later.

This is not due process.

I don't care what you think about other people...if you sit back and watch THEIR due process go down the toilet...say goodbye to yours too!

[honorthesabbath]

Amen T&O--but as usual--the American sheeple will take all that the media has to say as gospel.

If it be true--one of the things that got me so mad was that now they claim that the authorities cannot find or identify the 'caller' of the complaint of abuse. Now how very convenient is THAT for the government?

Yeah--where is the due process? Where is Congressmen Foley when you need him huh? BTW--what ever DID happen to him? Hush--hush!

[TrustAndObey]

Anonymous phone calls = due process? Since when anyway?

I could call the police right now and tell them that I think my neighbor is abusing her children (which I don't believe, it's just an example) and they'd be out of there by tonight....without ever even ASKING me my name.

This is truly ridiculous. OF COURSE they can't find the anonymous caller! He/she probably doesn't exist.

[mva1985]

From what I have read so far doesn't it seem that they took inappropriate action?

[mva1985]

Anonymous phone calls = due process? Since when anyway?

I could call the police right now and tell them that I think my neighbor is abusing her children (which I don't believe, it's just an example) and they'd be out of there by tonight....without ever even ASKING me my name.

This is truly ridiculous. OF COURSE they can't find the anonymous caller! He/she probably doesn't exist.
The anonymous caller is sixteen - underage so they would not likely release her name.

[TrustAndObey]

From what I have read so far doesn't it seem that they tool appropriate action?

Appropriate action would completely encompass family unity. That is their JOB.

Instead they forced people out and are NOW investigating.

No MVA, this is not what we elect a government for.

[honorthesabbath]

MVA--the media is actually saying that the authorities didn't even get her name nor can they identify her. Isn't one of our tenets of law is to be able to FACE OUR ACCUSER?

Crawford vs Washington

[mva1985]

Appropriate action would completely encompass family unity. That is their JOB.

Instead they forced people out and are NOW investigating.

No MVA, this is not what we elect a government for.
Trust,

It is a parents responsibility to look out for their kids.

The article linked to told of girls who when they entered puberty were married to much older men that seems pretty inappropriate doesn't it?

[mva1985]

MVA--the media is actually saying that the authorities didn't even get her name nor can they identify her. Isn't one of our tenets of law is to be able to FACE OUR ACCUSER?

Crawford vs Washington
Facing our accuser versus protecting the young.

[TrustAndObey]

Facing our accuser versus protecting the young.

I'm a mother MVA. Right off the bat that makes me an advocate for children. This does not feel right to me.

You don't find it suspicious at all that they're going by an anonymous tip and then saying they can't find the caller?

You don't think it's a little odd that they have a record of going after "compounds"?

The whole world seems to cheer when they see our government go after a "cult" but guess what? I'd LOVE to move to a compound and work/live/study there and get away from this crazy world....and a lot of the world considers US a cult.

Have you ever watched the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement"?

[TrustAndObey]

I'd like to say something else here....

My ex-husband gets very upset with me that I don't allow our son to do certain things on the Sabbath. As soon as I told him I was becoming a Sabbath-keeper the word "cult" came out of his mouth.

It didn't bother him too badly, though, until I told him I don't celebrate Christmas anymore, because then it was official....only a CULT wouldn't celebrate Christ's BIRTHDAY (his exact words).

Thankfully I had a long talk with him and danced around him with scriptures he'd never even heard before (because he hasn't read the bible).

My parents think we're a cult as well.

Do you really want to endorse our government going after "cults"? Really?

[mva1985]

I'm a mother MVA. Right off the bat that makes me an advocate for children. This does not feel right to me.

You don't find it suspicious at all that they're going by an anonymous tip and then saying they can't find the caller?

You don't think it's a little odd that they have a record of going after "compounds"?

The whole world seems to cheer when they see our government go after a "cult" but guess what? I'd LOVE to move to a compound and work/live/study there and get away from this crazy world....and a lot of the world considers US a cult.

Have you ever watched the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement"?
No I haven't seen that.

Weren't many of the bodies at Waco shot by their own?
Are you saying that David Koresh wasn't having sex with multiple women?

[mva1985]

Do you really want to endorse our government going after "cults"? Really?

Nope I don't endorse them "going" after a cult, but I do want them catching people who break the law.

Once they have probable cause that gives them the right to have a warrant to search the "compound."

[TrustAndObey]

No I haven't seen that.

Weren't many of the bodies at Waco shot by their own?

Are you saying that David Koresh wasn't having sex with multiple women?

I wasn't at Waco and couldn't tell you if Koresh was having sex with multiple women.

I just know that people seem to believe EVERYTHING they hear on the news (sheeple), and the documentary was pretty shocking (seriously....rent it or send me your address via PM and I'll mail it to you).

Some of those children at Waco had such extensive nerve damage (from the gas) that they broke their own backs while writhing in agony. Do you realize how much pain that would be?

Is that PROTECTING children?

And MVA, it doesn't MATTER if I think David Koresh was a bad person or a false prophet....our government doesn't get to decide that!

[TrustAndObey]

Nope I don't endorse them "going" after a cult, but I do want them catching people who break the law.

Once they have probable cause that gives them the right to have a warrant to search the "compound."

The day an anonymous call from a mysterious stranger becomes probable cause, we all might as well move to Chile.

They didn't search the compound. They removed children and are NOW searching the compound. Any doubts they'll find SOMETHING?

They have to, or the American people are going to go berzerk.

Stand up for other people while they can still stand up for you too.

If we sit back and allow this to happen, I'm telling you, anonymous phone calls are going to be an every day thing.....and it won't MATTER if you're innocent or not, you've lost time with your children.

[mva1985]

The day an anonymous call from a mysterious stranger becomes probable cause, we all might as well move to Chile.

They didn't search the compound. They removed children and are NOW searching the compound. Any doubts they'll find SOMETHING?

They have to, or the American people are going to go berzerk.

Stand up for other people while they can still stand up for you too.

If we sit back and allow this to happen, I'm telling you, anonymous phone calls are going to be an every day thing.....and it won't MATTER if you're innocent or not, you've lost time with your children.
Trust,

This has been going on for quite some time it didn't just happen last night.

We've had a number in my town that kids could call (241-KIDS) for help for years.

One thing we must remember is that just because children services shows up you are not required to let them search your premises unless LEO are there and have a search warrant.

[mva1985]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,350768,00.html

"Child welfare officials seized more than 400 children, most of them girls, in the raid on the FLDS compound, known as the Yearn for Zion ranch, saying the youngsters were in danger of physical, emotional and sexual abuse. The renegade Mormon splinter group requires girls at puberty to enter into polygamous marriages with much older men and produce children, authorities say. The sect also teaches children to fear the outside world, including the very authorities who removed them until a court hearing Thursday that will help determine their future.
"You're taught to fear everyone and everything," said Cooke, herself a 16-year-old bride."

[honorthesabbath]

Facing our accuser versus protecting the young.

But MVA--we must not forget that no matter what age the accuser is--they must be held to the same standards of law as anyone is. A lie is a lie no matter who's mouth it proceeds from.

Never forget that it was the CHILDREN's LIES that caused the horrific and insane deaths of countless thousands during the Salem witch hunts.

Never forget that it was the CHILDREN who LIED with the help of prosecutors that caused so much pain and false imprisonment for the MacMillan family.

I think maybe it's time for society to begin to be protected from the children. (Or those who exploit the children for their own legal and political gain).

[TrustAndObey]

If they want to stop the practice of girls being married off, it's very simple....

Up the age of consent in all the states, including the age of consent for marriage from a girls' parents. Even the age of sexual consent can be worked around right now if the parents agree that their daughter can be married at a younger age.

But if you up the age then we're going to have an even bigger list of "sex offenders" that simply include boys and girls that had consensual sex with each other.

My state has started prosecuting girls and their partners if the girl becomes pregnant before the age of 16.

[mva1985]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,350768,00.html

"The children and the 139 women who followed them voluntarily out of the compound are being so secretive that child welfare officials are having trouble sorting out who the youngsters' parents are. Most of the children are the offspring of the faith's inner circle — including its now-imprisoned prophet, Warren Jeffs — who were born since construction began on the compound in 2003, or were hand-selected by Jeffs to come to the enclave, which the sect regards as part of Zion on Earth."

[TrustAndObey]

But MVA--we must not forget that no matter what age the accuser is--they must be held to the same standards of law as anyone is. A lie is a lie no matter who's mouth it proceeds from.

Never forget that it was the CHILDREN's LIES that caused the horrific and insane deaths of countless thousands during the Salem witch hunts.

Never forget that it was the CHILDREN who LIED with the help of prosecutors that caused so much pain and false imprisonment for the MacMillan family.

I think maybe it's time for society to begin to be protected from the children. (Or those who exploit the children for their own legal and political gain).

My oldest son has been so thoroughly instructed about WHO to call if he feels "abused" that he's threatened me with calling more than once when I grounded him from his XBOX.

The saddest part? He'd be removed FIRST and they'd question me later.

That is not due process and it's time I'd never get back. I'd probably have to hire a lawyer, have my name in the paper....etc.

I'm sorry, I'm not falling for this one and anyone that does is going to wonder where all the voices of protest went when it happens to THEM.

[TrustAndObey]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,350768,00.html

"The children and the 139 women who followed them voluntarily out of the compound are being so secretive that child welfare officials are having trouble sorting out who the youngsters' parents are. Most of the children are the offspring of the faith's inner circle — including its now-imprisoned prophet, Warren Jeffs — who were born since construction began on the compound in 2003, or were hand-selected by Jeffs to come to the enclave, which the sect regards as part of Zion on Earth."

Do you think the 139 women will be allowed into the foster homes they place these children in?

[mva1985]

But MVA--we must not forget that no matter what age the accuser is--they must be held to the same standards of law as anyone is. A lie is a lie no matter who's mouth it proceeds from.

Never forget that it was the CHILDREN's LIES that caused the horrific and insane deaths of countless thousands during the Salem witch hunts.

Never forget that it was the CHILDREN who LIED with the help of prosecutors that caused so much pain and false imprisonment for the MacMillan family.

I think maybe it's time for society to begin to be protected from the children. (Or those who exploit the children for their own legal and political gain).
I don't disagree about the Salem Witch Trials just the number of people that actually died.

"The Salem witch trials were a series of hearings before local magistrates followed by county court trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial) to prosecute people accused of witchcraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft) in Essex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_County%2C_Massachusetts), Suffolk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffolk_County%2C_Massachusetts), and Middlesex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middlesex_County%2C_Massachusetts) Counties of colonial Massachusetts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts), between February 1692 and May 1693. Over 150 people were arrested and imprisoned, with even more accused who were not formally pursued by the authorities. The two courts convicted twenty-nine people of the capital felony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony) of witchcraft. Nineteen of the accused, fourteen women and five men, were hanged. One man who refused to enter a plea was crushed to death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crushing) under heavy stones in an attempt to force him to do so. At least five more of the accused died in prison."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

[TrustAndObey]

I'm typing so fast I'm getting flustered.

Time for me to step away.

[honorthesabbath]

MVA--brother--when has having sex with multiple woman grounds for an all out army assault? Why weren't these powerful ppl's homes and 'play grounds' blown to bits with 20mm shells?

[mva1985]

Do you think the 139 women will be allowed into the foster homes they place these children in?
I don't have a clue.

Believe me I am not for BIG government - especially when it comes to my taxes.

Do I think they make mistakes. Yes.
Don't we sometimes accuse the government for acting to slow?
Acting to fast?

Most of them are people too, and in most cases I think they try to do the right thing.

One day they will turn against us - this I know.

[TrustAndObey]

Either there's separation of church and state or there isn't. It's really that simple.

ONE person made a phone call here but over 400 children are being abused?

The only "illegal" weapons they found at Waco mysteriously weren't damaged in the fire.

Documented fact.

[mva1985]

I'm typing so fast I'm getting flustered.

Time for me to step away.
Don't get frustrated Sister! ;-)

[TrustAndObey]

MVA, I'm serious...you need to watch the documentary about Waco.

I will gladly send it to you if you'll PM me the address of your church. I don't even have to have your full name and you can just alert your church that you're going to be receiving something from "TrustAndObey". :)

It will literally make you so mad you'll cry and it's not just words of certain people, it's court hearings about it with open admissions of not finding what they thought they'd find, about them (the gubment) firing first, it's pictures of children so contorted from pain that their backs are BROKEN, and they are charred.

It's disgusting and most people still say "they had a right to do it".

[honorthesabbath]

MVA--as a parent who is about to watch their child (ren) being escorted out of your home with the possibililty of never seeing them again, would you VOLUNTARILY go with them? NOTHING would hold me back brother--nothing!

So was it really voluntary? Like the cat that goes back into a burning building in spite of her massive burns to get more of her kittens out!

[mva1985]

MVA--brother--when has having sex with multiple woman grounds for an all out army assault? Why weren't these powerful ppl's homes and 'play grounds' blown to bits with 20mm shells?
I guess I need to watch the video that Trust was referring to, but I'm not much for conspiracy theories.

One of the reasons our LEO has gone para-military is because of the criminal element that they are up against.

I subscribe to a magazine called American COP written by police officers, it seems that they really are not interested in violating people rights.

[honorthesabbath]

The STATE had NO RIGHT to invade those religious grounds. Not with the flimsy excuse they promoted.

[honorthesabbath]

MVA--I used to post on a web site where cops posted. I've never met such a bunch of mindless tyrants in my whole life. It totally changed the way I look at them now. Neo-Nazi comes to mind.

[TrustAndObey]

Voluntary=not wanting to be burned alive like they watched happen to the people in Waco.

Come on, I'd go "voluntarily" too after witnessing what I did at Waco. It's better than breaking my own back from pain or watching my children die like that.

MVA, even though they said they didn't fire into the compound at Waco, you can HEAR them shooting from helicopters when Koresh is on the phone.

They show a tank deliberately puncturing a wall where there was a tank with an open flame. Nerve gas + open flames and propane gas = FIRE.

I'm not okay with what happened at Waco and I'm not okay with this either.

If they're really protecting children, it is unexplainable that there were so many children unconscious from nerve gas and then burned alive. CHILDREN.

I'm not mad at you, just so you know. But I am mind at the mindset that the government can do anything "for the children".

Some of them will undoubtedly be placed in abusive homes because they don't have time to do background checks.

As a proponent for gun ownership, I'm telling you, you really need to watch the Waco nightmare. If for no other reason, the whole "illegal" guns NOT being there should have you spitting mad.

[TrustAndObey]

I guess I need to watch the video that Trust was referring to, but I'm not much for conspiracy theories.

One of the reasons our LEO has gone para-military is because of the criminal element that they are up against.

It's not a conspiracy theory. Did you not watch parts of it unfold on the news, MVA?

Isn't what you saw enough to make you angry?


I subscribe to a magazine called American COP written by police officers, it seems that they really are not interested in violating people rights.

LOL...you think they'd publish a magazine saying they ARE interested in violating people's rights?

[TrustAndObey]

Always, always, always consider the source.

[mva1985]

The video you referred to is on Google video so I'll watch it there, but I appreciate your offer to send it to me.

[honorthesabbath]

ROFL-- I just realized that in my typing frenzy--I forgot to post the links of 'those powerful ppl'--sorry!

http://www.voxfux.com/features/bush_child_sex_coverup/franklin.htm
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080402/METRO/804020443
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E00E5DC1E3AF932A25750C0A96E9C8B63

[TrustAndObey]

The video you referred to is on Google video so I'll watch it there, but I appreciate your offer to send it to me.

Oh for real? That's awesome!

Hey, will you post the link in here then?

[honorthesabbath]

Folks--let's not forget one very important ingredient in this whole senario. When Waco was happening, Janet Reno, the governments attorney had publically identified those who 'they' consider, 'enemies of the state'. Yep--you guessed it--"CHRISTIANS".

I wonder if there might have been an outcry if WACO had been a 'gay' installation?

PS MVA--I'm not mad at you either brother--I'm just passionate about this topic. I'm fed up with the media/state hysteria about children that they a promoting in this country as an excuse to violate our rights.

[mva1985]

Waco: The rules of engagement Part 1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665

[TrustAndObey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6vrep7k9g Part One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l11T3_QbdiE&feature=related Part Two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG4NgVsJ4Vg&feature=related Part Three

(There's several parts and they can all be found on Youtube.com)

[TrustAndObey]

Thanks MVA!

There's at least two places where people can see for themselves.

[honorthesabbath]

Where would we be without Youtube?? rofl

[TrustAndObey]

Where would we be without Youtube?? rofl

I can't remember life without Youtube! :)

[mva1985]

Where would we be without Youtube?? rofl
While in one sense it is funny. Don't you think that this sort of availability on the Internet would help reveal any cover ups?

[TrustAndObey]

While in one sense it is funny. Don't you think that this sort of availability on the Internet would help reveal any cover ups?

Uhh yeah, that's why I'm asking you to watch it. LOL!

[honorthesabbath]

While in one sense it is funny. Don't you think that this sort of availability on the Internet would help reveal any cover ups?

The tentacles of corruption runs deep MVA. But yes--thanks to the internet MUCH has been learned about the true state of this country's dirty dealings and the worlds! This is why many countries right now are censoring their ppl's access to certain sites.

But never forgot brother, that with many ppl, even though the truth is right before their eyes, they will deny.

[TrustAndObey]

MVA, when I said I was an activist, I wasn't kidding.

The public as a whole doesn't scream and shout as something like this is just happening to "them" (cults, compounds, "stock pilers" etc).

Look how easy it is to get labeled a cult when the very definition of a cult might as well say "CHRISTIAN!"

Due process being taken away from anyone for any reason should send us ALL hopping, no matter who it's happening to.

You may not like what I'm saying, but I'm willing to bet that you'd call someone like me right away if this started happening to you.

Do you really think it's "okay" that someone could call today and say "I think MVA has a stockpile of weapons in his house and there's CHILDREN there", and that's enough to have your children removed before any investigation?

And guess what....they don't "return" children right away. They have to be processed in and out of CPS custody and there are hearings with delay upon delay.

Go to the Yahoo board for parents that have had to fight CPS for years and read what it took to put them in that position.

Then read all the accounts of people that have grown up in foster care and read those horror stories.

This is serious. It hasn't affected you (or me for that matter) yet, but it's only because others are sticking their necks out there and fighting it like crazy. They're fighting FOR you and me and most people don't even know it.

One of history’s most tragic offenses to justice was the Holocaust. In Washington D.C., at the Holocaust Museum, there is a plaque with these words:

“Thou shalt not be a victim. Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.”

[mva1985]

MVA, when I said I was an activist, I wasn't kidding.

The public as a whole doesn't scream and shout as something like this is just happening to "them" (cults, compounds, "stock pilers" etc).

Look how easy it is to get labeled a cult when the very definition of a cult might as well say "CHRISTIAN!"

Due process being taken away from anyone for any reason should send us ALL hopping, no matter who it's happening to.

You may not like what I'm saying, but I'm willing to bet that you'd call someone like me right away if this started happening to you.

Do you really think it's "okay" that someone could call today and say "I think MVA has a stockpile of weapons in his house and there's CHILDREN there", and that's enough to have your children removed before any investigation?

And guess what....they don't "return" children right away. They have to be processed in and out of CPS custody and there are hearings with delay upon delay.

Go to the Yahoo board for parents that have had to fight CPS for years and read what it took to put them in that position.

Then read all the accounts of people that have grown up in foster care and read those horror stories.

This is serious. It hasn't affected you (or me for that matter) yet, but it's only because others are sticking their necks out there and fighting it like crazy. They're fighting FOR you and me and most people don't even know it.

One of history’s most tragic offenses to justice was the Holocaust. In Washington D.C., at the Holocaust Museum, there is a plaque with these words:

“Thou shalt not be a victim. Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.”
I agree about activism.

I am a person who calls my state representatives and representatives to Congress as well. We all have our callings. Not all of us can be activists against everything. Some are called to one thing and others to something else.

Fortunately for me both of my boys are legal adults and one lives on his own.

I agree with the last line of your post as well. Great quote!

[TrustAndObey]

I agree that we don't have the same callings. You'd be thankful you don't have MY calling if I told you the things I'm very vocal about.

It never fails....I'm usually in the minority of "popular opinion" and I honestly do not plan it that way! LOL

Here's another great quote...from my dear mother.

"When I turned on the television and saw what they were doing to the people in Waco, I picked up the phone to call the police. It fell to the floor as I realized it was the police doing it, and I will never be the same."

[TrustAndObey]

See where I get it from? :)

[TrustAndObey]

Fortunately for me both of my boys are legal adults and one lives on his own.

No offense brother, but that statement smacked of "it can't happen to ME so I'm not worried about it."

Your children will have children some day.

The loudest voices are the ones that don't have anything to lose.

They're the voices of people without children in the system and who aren't afraid of retaliation.

Here's my motto: OH I know what they did to you and why you are afraid to talk...but what are they going to do about ME?

[mva1985]

No offense brother, but that statement smacked of "it can't happen to ME so I'm not worried about it."

Your children will have children some day.I hope we aren't here that long! ;)

The loudest voices are the ones that don't have anything to lose.

They're the voices of people without children in the system and who aren't afraid of retaliation.

Here's my motto: OH I know what they did to you and why you are afraid to talk...but what are they going to do about ME?

Hopefully, you followed what I was saying in the rest of my post about different people being called to different tasks.

I battle for something that you may not battle for and vice versa.

Not to say that I would not join you on the front lines if the situation called for it.

[TrustAndObey]

I hope we aren't here that long! ;)

If they're both legal adults, it could be nine months from now. LOL! I'm just kidding, I'm sure you raised 'em right!

Hopefully, you followed what I was saying in the rest of my post about different people being called to different tasks.

I battle for something that you may not battle for and vice versa.

Not to say that I would not join you on the front lines if the situation called for it.

Yeah, I got what you were saying. I hope that you got what I was saying when I basically said "GET OUT OF THE WAY THEN!" HA!

Don't be a sheeple or I'll thwack ya.

If you don't see I have a point, that's fine, but as my five-year-old would say "Let me have my feelings!"

Bwhahaha

[mva1985]

If they're both legal adults, it could be nine months from now. LOL! I'm just kidding, I'm sure you raised 'em right!



Yeah, I got what you were saying. I hope that you got what I was saying when I basically said "GET OUT OF THE WAY THEN!" HA!

Don't be a sheeple or I'll thwack ya.

If you don't see I have a point, that's fine, but as my five-year-old would say "Let me have my feelings!"

Bwhahaha
I was just wondering what some would think about us "trads" not always being on the same exact page as each other?

[TrustAndObey]

I was just wondering what some would think about us "trads" not always being on the same exact page as each other?

It sure throws a wrench in the generalizations doesn't it? :)

[mva1985]

It sure throws a wrench in the generalizations doesn't it? :)
Yes it does.

But I believe God likes variety and thus we have all the different things on the earth and not a single human who has ever lived exactly alike.

Can you imagine the other worlds? What an awesome God!

[TrustAndObey]

Free, there's freedom beyond these walls here...FLY...FLY....FLY!!!!

:)

[TrustAndObey]

Yes it does.

But I believe God likes variety and thus we have all the different things on the earth and not a single human who has ever lived exactly alike.

Can you imagine the other worlds? What an awesome God!

I KNOW God loves variety. For instance, the way I witness to people isn't how you witness probably....but we each get through to people that the other one might not be able to.

[mva1985]

I KNOW God loves variety. For instance, the way I witness to people isn't how you witness probably....but we each get through to people that the other one might not be able to.
Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gives the increase.

1 Cor. 3:6

[mva1985]

Hey, serious question. Is there any Scriptural evidence of 'the other worlds'? I'll read the responses and not respond myself. Thanks in advance.:thumbsup:

In CHRIST alone...
Well we do have the account in Job 1, but not everyone agrees what that means.

We can observe the other planets that are in our solar system along with our sun. We also can observe other star systems, and I think I just read recently that astronomers detected planets that orbited another star.

Free I have no problem if you would like to discuss. I don't know what the rules say - I haven't read them!

[TrustAndObey]

MVA, anything that people can't "see" with their own eyes will be ridiculed.

You may not care what the rules say, personally, because you're welcomed in the other forum....but the rest of us DO care so please respect that.

[freeindeed2]

Well we do have the account in Job 1, but not everyone agrees what that means.

We can observe the other planets that are in our solar system along with our sun. We also can observe other star systems, and I think I just read recently that astronomers detected planets that orbited another star.

Free I have no problem if you would like to discuss. I don't know what the rules say - I haven't read them!
I started a thread where discussion is allowed. See you there.

In CHRIST alone...

[mva1985]

MVA, anything that people can't "see" with their own eyes will be ridiculed.

You may not care what the rules say, personally, because you're welcomed in the other forum....but the rest of us DO care so please respect that.
I do respect that and I think most everyone else has for the most part.

Yahoo video from what we were talking about earlier.
http://www.yahoo.com/s/856125

[OntheDL]

Here are some more Waco videos.

A documentary by an attorney Linda Thompson.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iCfvhl9NXw

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xRaJ5QA1kk&feature=related

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N5Dm0LmhMg&feature=related

[honorthesabbath]

DL--doesn't it just make you sick?!

[happywiththelord]

what makes me sick is the lack of religious freedom in this country!

our country was founded on this principal. i see it being eroded everyday for the sake for other peoples "morality".

that is what our fore fathers came to this country for, was to practice there religion as they saw fit.

now, if somebody doesnt agree with how you worship, you are raided by the government. or your tax id number is taken away from you.

how wrong it that!!!

now, do I agree with what was going on with the polygismist thing and all the children situation, NO. But, but do i agree that the government should raid the complex, no!

Everyone should be able to worship to the dictates of there conscience, without government intervention!

[honorthesabbath]

Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gives the increase.

1 Cor. 3:6

And we are not feeling the need to hit the report button either--rofl! Just goes to show there is a way to disagree and a way not to.

We may agree on this--but I still love you brother.

[honorthesabbath]

what makes me sick is the lack of religious freedom in this country!

our country was founded on this principal. i see it being eroded everyday for the sake for other peoples "morality".

that is what our fore fathers came to this country for, was to practice there religion as they saw fit.

now, if somebody doesnt agree with how you worship, you are raided by the government. or your tax id number is taken away from you.

how wrong it that!!!

now, do I agree with what was going on with the polygismist thing and all the children situation, NO. But, but do i agree that the government should raid the complex, no!

Everyone should be able to worship to the dictates of there conscience, without government intervention!

But the only info we are getting is from the lying liberal media. So there is no way that we can know for sure what really is going on there. Can we all say "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?

[TrustAndObey]

I'm still really mad about the whole thing.

Grrrrrr.

[mva1985]

And we are not feeling the need to hit the report button either--rofl! Just goes to show there is a way to disagree and a way not to.

We may agree on this--but I still love you brother.

Honor,

That is true about the report button. I haven't hit it in quite some time.

I guess the point I was trying to get across is that it does concern me but I guess not to the point that I am an activist about it. If I was in someone else's shoes and my life was affected by it differently I probably would react differently.

I do think it is important. Especially the more I read about the issue, and some of the video clips that I have seen about it.

[honorthesabbath]

MVA--and in light of these injustices, can you see why the SOP was given certain messages to help us through what is about to come?

We are NOT to build 'compounds' and wag our fingers at the government needlessly. We are to live quietly in the country and work for God in the cities.

I also noticed in another thread that someone lead his audience to think that EGW was promoting Sunday worship. We ALL know this is not true. What she was referring to in that quote is that when the Sunday laws are getting off the ground, we are not to forsake Sabbath worship and rest, but that we also should go along with going to services on Sunday too, right up until the point that 'they' make Sabbath worship a violation of civil law. Then it's time to hit the hills!

[mva1985]

MVA--and in light of these injustices, can you see why the SOP was given certain messages to help us through what is about to come?

We are NOT to build 'compounds' and wag our fingers at the government needlessly. We are to live quietly in the country and work for God in the cities.

I also noticed in another thread that someone lead his audience to think that EGW was promoting Sunday worship. We ALL know this is not true. What she was referring to in that quote is that when the Sunday laws are getting off the ground, we are not to forsake Sabbath worship and rest, but that we also should go along with going to services on Sunday too, right up until the point that 'they' make Sabbath worship a violation of civil law. Then it's time to hit the hills!
Ah! yes I understand about why we should live in the country.

I did not read the thread you mention but I am familiar with the quote you mentioned. Many people like to lift out a sentence and say she endorsed Sunday worship when that is not what the context implies.

As a matter of fact we have an SDA pastor here in town that used that very line to start Easter Sunday services on a regular basis and I don't doubt that one day that they will have Sunday services every week.

[OntheDL]

DL--doesn't it just make you sick?!

It does make me sick. However it should make us rejoice at the same time in knowing Christ is near. It re-enforces our present-truth message: not to get ready but be ready now: prepare to meet thy God.

[honorthesabbath]

THERE MUST NEVER BE ANOTHER WACO!
By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
April 18, 2008
NewsWithViews.com
On February 28, 1993, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF, now known as the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives or BATFE) began their assault on the home of the Branch Davidians outside Waco, Texas. An unarmed David Koresh was shot by the agents as he stepped onto his front porch. A shootout resulted with several deaths on both sides.
Shortly afterward, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) took charge of the situation, and on April 19, 1993 agents from both departments (utilizing military hardware and both U.S. and foreign military advisers) assaulted the dwellings, which resulted in the deaths of 80 American citizens. Most of the victims were old men, women, and small children.
The events at Waco have contributed to the disdain of federal abuse of power like nothing since the Boston Massacre back in 1770. (By comparison, the British killed 5 Americans in that assault.) Moved by grassroots pressure, the Congress of the United States convened special hearings into the conduct of those federal agencies responsible for the Waco debacle. The result was less than satisfactory to many Americans.
The congressional hearings, along with eyewitness testimony and subsequent infrared video of the events at Waco led many to believe that federal agents were allowed to lie under oath with impunity. It is a fact that crucial evidence was conveniently "lost" by federal agents. Worse still was the release of videotapes of the events by investigative reporters showing the utter absurdity and duplicity of the government's account of the tragedy.
At the end of the hearings, questions remained unanswered, and no one within the federal government was held accountable. Davidians who survived the raid were tried for murder. A jury found them innocent, but no charges were ever brought against any federal agents.
Whatever one thinks of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, they had committed no capital crimes. Neither could the charges of child abuse, illegal weapons, or illegal drug activity (charges that were used by the feds to justify their raid) be substantiated.
Furthermore, it is unconscionable (not to mention a violation of U.S. law as prescribed in the Posse Comitatus Act--a law that President Bush recently had the audacity to expunge, by the way) that tanks and other military equipment would be used against mostly women and children within our own country. The bizarre tactics employed by the BATF and FBI at Waco are unfathomable and unforgivable! Our government has been more lenient and patient when dealing with many of America's deadliest enemies than it was in dealing with those poor Davidians.
There must never be another Waco!
God-given, constitutional liberties apply to every American, even those who are considered strange or unconventional. Under no circumstances must we allow federal agencies (or any other agencies, for that matter) to circumvent the laws of our nation that protect individual life and liberty. And, unfortunately, with the advent of the Patriot Act, the federal government has far more power and authority--and individuals have far less freedom and protection--than in 1993. This portends an even more ominous future for liberty.
The demands of liberty and justice rest upon us all. Certainly, Congress plays a part. Their investigation into Waco was inept, to say the least. The media also plays an important role. They have the power to inform; they also have the power to sedate. Absent a love for truth and justice by a lackadaisical media and a cowardly Congress, the fires of Waco still burn in the heart of the American conscience.
Beyond that, under the Bush administration, we have watched the size and scope of the federal government burgeon to proportions never before seen. It seems clear that we have entered an era of unlimited and unbridled federal power and authority. Can we assume, therefore, that more Wacos are on the horizon?
It is incumbent upon each of us to seriously ponder our future. It is imperative that each of us be willing to study, once again, the great principles upon which this country was built. Such a study demands that we re-familiarize ourselves with the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. We must re-read our Declaration of Independence. We must read the words of wisdom and warning delivered by our Founding Fathers. In short, we must be completely familiar with the principles of liberty, because those principles made us, and those principles will keep us. Without them, liberty's future is about as permanent as the wooden buildings at Mt. Carmel. Without them, the fire of tyranny will reduce us to the cinders of obscurity as surely as did the fire outside Waco, Texas on April 19, 1993.

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin444.htm

[mva1985]

Honor,

Do you think that maybe we need this:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson

[mva1985]

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all."
-- Thomas Jefferson

[mva1985]

"...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

[honorthesabbath]

Who has been injured MVA? Do we really know for sure? Is this your premise or have I assumed incorrectly?

Boy--we could open a WHOLE new can of worms on the word 'injure'!

[mva1985]

Who has been injured MVA? Do we really know for sure? Is this your premise or have I assumed incorrectly?

Boy--we could open a WHOLE new can of worms on the word 'injure'!

Honor,

No I just got carried away with the quotes from Thomas Jefferson.

My point was to what ends would you go? How far would you go?

I was just curious - I am not trying to ruffle any feathers! Really!

[Kyran]

I think that it would be important to determine who actuality made the phone call. It could have been planned by an enemy of this particular group, just like in the case of the Branch Davidians. With the Waco instant it was a guy who failed to take over the group who spread all the lies about the compound.

[happywiththelord]

good point!

[TrustAndObey]

Did you all see the update on this tonight? The girl that supposedly called in has made accusations before that were deemed to be false.

Shoot first...ask questions later eh?

Grrr. It still burns me.

[Rosie55]

Here is a website to see video's and pictures of what is happening with the LDS mothers and children.
I read today in the news that the little babies are now being taken away from the mothers and put in foster care. This just makes me very angry!

Instead why didn't they go in and question the MEN ?

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

[TrustAndObey]

Here is a website to see video's and pictures of what is happening with the LDS mothers and children.
I read today in the news that the little babies are now being taken away from the mothers and put in foster care. This just makes me very angry!

Instead why didn't they go in and question the MEN ?

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

It makes me angry too. This is not justice at all.

[icedragon101]

It makes me angry too. This is not justice at all.
watch out for another tim mcvay and oklahoma city boming, can you say retaliation,

[happywiththelord]

i am afraid you might have a point.

[OntheDL]

Tim McVeigh acting alone with a single truck bomb? No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBE7muQcRPw

Multiple explosions, multiple bombs diffused.

Government inside job? Government cover up? Yes and yes.

Heard of Tom McVey?

A fictional character who bombed an OKC federal building in a fiction written in 1992 by Martin Keating, the brother of the OK governor Frank Keating.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515FEQTDSDL._SS500_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Final-Jihad-When-Worst-Finally/dp/0964704811

[OntheDL]

I think that it would be important to determine who actuality make the phone call. It could have been planned by an enemy of this particular group, just like in the case of the Branch Davidians. With the Waco instant it was a guy who failed to take over the group who spread all the lies about the compound.

Waco was a massive conspiracy.

Consider this...

Vernon Howell went to Israel. He was trained by the Mossad on infantry tactics.

After returning the US, he changed his name to David Koresh. Koresh is the Hebrew name for Cyrus, the deliverer of Israel.

The name Branch Davidian comes from the Branch of David.

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

It's obvious for whatever reason, David Koresh turned on the Mossad. He intended to move his congregation to Israel. His entire movement has a messianic connotation.

The Anti-Defamation League, a front for the Mossad sent a personnel to 'study the bible' with David Koresh, but in reality to collect information.

The Israelites view him as a threat. He had to go.

Now why didn't they take him out singly? The residents of the compound jogged daily. They could have napped him along the jogging routes. He invited an AFT agent to come to the compound to inspect the weapons. It was turned down.

They were not interested in a low profile operation. Perhaps the Mossad was afraid his successor may take up where he left off. But a national headline would give it proper exposure. It was win-win for the Mossad and for the US government using the event to do its leg work.

Remember president Clinton warned about joining cults may suffer similar consequences? Hello my Adventists friends???!!!

About 2 weeks after Waco, a law on assault weapon control was passed. Normally such passage would take months if not years.

Thomas Jefferson: “single ancts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day, but a series of oppressions, began at a distinguished period, and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers(administrations), too plainly proves a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery.

When Hitler tried to invade Switzerland, his generals advised him not to. Because every Swiss citizens bear arms. The Nazis may have been able to successfully conquer it, but they would not have been able to occupy it.

This is why every dictators had to disarm the people first before imposing tyranny. Do you know the American gun control law was a transcript of the Nazi gun law of 1938???

Thomas Jefferson: “No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

Samuel Adams: “The said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”

Patrick Henry: “The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.”

James Madison: “Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.”

Vladimir Lenin: “…one of the basic conditions for the victory of socialism is the arming of the communist workers and disarming of the bourgeoisie.”

Leo Tolstoy: “Governments need armies to protect them against their enslaved and oppressed subjects.”

Josef Stalin: “If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.”

Am I saying we should all exercise our constitutional rights and all buy guns? No.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We should diligently watch for the signs of times. And discern these events: Waco, OKC, 911..., as the founding fathers had warned, were all deliberate systematic plans of reducing us back to slavery, in preparation of the coming a New World Order.

[Rosie55]

Here is the latest information--read from the bottom up!
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/index.php

Recent Events:

Devestated and confused by CPS and state auth

04/24/2008 11:00 AM

Mothers who have been separated from their children, (all those with children two years and older) are loaded on buses. Some go to the Ranch, some to a women's shelter in San Antonio, and some in San Angelo. While on the bus they throw open the dark-tinted windows and cry out for help. Writing SOS signs, the mothers hold them out the window pleading for help. CPS workers tell the FLDS ladies that if they choose to go to the women's shelter, they (the mothers) will have a much better chance of seeing their children. The majority of the mothers choose to go to the shelter. CPS workers and policemen swarm the area. Questions asked CPS workers have varying answers, depending on which worker is asked. Mothers contact their lawyers and return to the Ranch where friends greet them with open arms and tender hearts.
Mothers and children are torn apart by CPS an

04/24/2008 9:00 AM

At 9:00 CPS workers, state troopers, etc. swarm the Coliseum. Mothers and children are ordered to take their last bite of breakfast and be ready to go. Some mothers have barely dressed their babies and haven't eaten at all. Mothers are called. Policemen and CPS workers are assigned to each mother, and began to take the children away. The whole Coliseum echoes with the cries of heart-broken children, and mothers. The CPS workers and state troopers physically peel the children off the mothers and force them apart. The building is in an uproar! Some policemen are weeping. Attorneys are turned away at the gate. "Are attorneys allowed to see their clients?" a guardian ad litem shouted to a Texas Ranger. "No!" the official shouts back. As the bus leaves with a group of mothers the mothers throw open the windows and call out for help. Writing SOS signs the mothers hold them out the windows. Any child over 12 months has been physically forced away from their mother.
Judge offers some hope.

04/23/2008 2:00 PM

At a court hearing the judge offers some hope. She strongly suggests that CPS keep all siblings together, ensure the freedom of religion, and allow the practice of it, keep nursing babies with their mothers, and also make sure the children have the clothing they are comfortable in wearing. Judge is moving from the mass hearings into individual cases, to move forward with the child custody issues.

[reddogs]

I have moved this thread to the more appropriate Discussion and Debate (http://christianforums.com/f841-discussion-and-debate.html)
Sub-forum for discussion and debate.


Red
Seventh-Day Adventist Forum Moderator