Yeshua as the Passover Lamb

[Kris10leigh]

I'm starting this thread specifically because of a discussion between ChavaK and me. So if this seems like this is coming out of left field, that's why. ;)

In response to how I relate Yeshua to the Passover lamb, I wrote:

Christians have always talked about being "saved" and I never understood what that meant, exactly. But when Yeshua is related back to Passover, it makes sense to me. The Hebrews were commanded to mark their doorways with the blood of the lamb. On that night, God "passed over" them, or "saved them". In the same way, and on the same night (or at least leading up to it), Yeshua shed His blood, thus "saving" us.

Saving us from what exactly I'm still considering. It's supposed to be from our sins. I was hit on the head with the revelation of how Yeshua is related to the Passover lamb. I'm waiting for the same brick to fall on this matter as well. ;)

[Kris10leigh]

ChavaK could you please expand on what you said here?
To me they reflect two totally different concepts, but since this isn't
a debate section, I'll let it go.
But....can you explain further how you think Jesus is related to
the Pesach lamb? I still do not understand your view..
many thanks, :wave:

[ChavaK]

ChavaK could you please expand on what you said here?

Hi Kris, I just noticed this thread....I'll try to get back to it soon,
when I have more time...:wave:

[christianmomof3]

I wonder about that too. The blood of the Passover lamb was put on the doorposts of the homes of the Jewish people so that the angel of death, who was sent to kill the firstborn would pass over their homes. Everyone in that home had to eat some of the lamb.
So that lamb was not for the forgiveness of sins.
The Jews did make sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins and some of those were lambs. But I don't think that the Passover lamb related to the forgiveness of sins.
I know that Jesus is called the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, but I am not sure how that relates to the passover lamb in particular.
I will have to do some research on that.
It is a good question.

[Lulav]

The Mikvah is very much tied up in this, and going back, the passing through the Reed Sea. :) (passing from death to life, death, resurrection) ;)

[kivi]

I wonder about that too. The blood of the Passover lamb was put on the doorposts of the homes of the Jewish people so that the angel of death, who was sent to kill the firstborn would pass over their homes. Everyone in that home had to eat some of the lamb.
So that lamb was not for the forgiveness of sins.
The Jews did make sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins and some of those were lambs. But I don't think that the Passover lamb related to the forgiveness of sins.
I know that Jesus is called the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, but I am not sure how that relates to the passover lamb in particular.
I will have to do some research on that.
It is a good question.
You are correct. The Pesach Korban [offering of the lamb] specifically is referred to as a thanksgiving korban and, as such, has nothing to do with atonement or forgiveness. Lambs, a symbol of one of the Egyptian gods, were taken and tied before the door of all Jewish houses in Egypt on Rosh Chodesh [the new moon, the start of the month, 15 days before Passover] so that all of the Egyptians would see and ask questions. The event was to be a public as possible. The Egyptians were specifically told that the lambs would be killed and eaten on the 15th of Nissan and that the 1st born and all of the idols of the Egyptians would be destroyed. After the previous 9 Plagues, the Egyptian ist born believed the Jews and there was a civil war between Pharo's army and the Egyptian 1st born. The Egyptians 1st born were defeated by the Egyptian army and the 10th Plague come to pass. There is nothing in the taking, killing, eating for purpose of the Pesach Korban that has anything to do with sin or forgiveness or atonement. It is all about thanksgiving, victory and liberation.

[Lulav]

You are correct. The Pesach Korban [offering of the lamb] specifically is referred to as a thanksgiving korban and, as such, has nothing to do with atonement or forgiveness. Lambs, a symbol of one of the Egyptian gods, were taken and tied before the door of all Jewish houses in Egypt on Rosh Chodesh [the new moon, the start of the month, 15 days before Passover] so that all of the Egyptians would see and ask questions. The event was to be a public as possible. The Egyptians were specifically told that the lambs would be killed and eaten on the 15th of Nissan and that the 1st born and all of the idols of the Egyptians would be destroyed. After the previous 9 Plagues, the Egyptian ist born believed the Jews and there was a civil war between Pharo's army and the Egyptian 1st born. The Egyptians 1st born were defeated by the Egyptian army and the 10th Plague come to pass. There is nothing in the taking, killing, eating for purpose of the Pesach Korban that has anything to do with sin or forgiveness or atonement. It is all about thanksgiving, victory and liberation. I beg to differ with you Kivi but that is not what we believe here and this is a Messianic debate forum and you are not allowed to debate against our beliefs. We believe Yeshua was the Lamb provided by Hashem, just as he provided a replacement for Isaac. In the setting of the original Passover, the sacrifice of the lambs signified that those partaking of that sacrifice would be spared from death. If the Israelites ignored or disobeyed G-d's warning, they would suffer the death penalty along with the Egyptians. This sacrifice was required to spare them from death.

For those who don't understand this yet, here's a bit to get you started

PESACH STORY

(EXODUS 12:3-24) Pesach (Passover) has a deeper meaning than just "stepping over" or "leaping over" something to avoid contact. The word "Pesach" comes from the noun "Pasqh" which has no connection with any other Hebrew word. However, "Pesach" does connect with the Egyptian word "pesh ", which means to "spread wings over" to protect. "Pesach" is used in this sense in Isaiah 3 1:5, Genesis 1:2, and Luke 13:34. The deeper meaning of "Pesach" is that the Spirit of G-d was actually hovering over those blood-sprinkled doors, not allowing the destroyer to come in.
Yeshua also has a deeper connection with Pesach than just merely observing it. Knowing that he was raised in a traditional Jewish home, we know that Pesach was a very important part of his life. We also know that the early Messianic Jews considered Yeshua to be their Passover Lamb, as we also believe today. There are some striking parallels when we look deeper into Pesach and Yeshua’s role as the Passover Lamb:

·The Passover Lamb was marked out for death.
Exodus 12:6 - The Lamb was to be slain
Isaiah 53:7 - The Messiah will be led as a Lamb to slaughter
1st Peter 1:20 - Yeshua was destined to die

· The Passover Lamb must be perfect.
Exodus 12:5 - The Lamb must be unblemished
Deut 15:21 - Only that which is perfect can make atonement
John 1:29 - Recognized by John the Baptist
John 18:38 - Pilate found no fault with Yeshua
Hebrews 4:15 - Yeshua was tested in all things
1st Peter 1:19 - Yeshua was an unblemished Lamb

·The Passover Lamb must be roasted with fire.
Deut 32:22 - Fire in scripture speaks of God’s judgment
Isaiah 53:6 - All of our sins are upon Yeshua
Isaiah 53:10 - Yeshua was a guilt offering
Matt 27:46 - Yeshua suffered the fire of God’s wrath
2 Cor 5:21 - Yeshua was made to be sin on our behalf


Passover, a Sacrifice. The Passover was a sacrifice. Modern theologians dispute this but without any basis. It was an unusual sacrifice. In many respects, it differed from the later sacrifices of the Law, but in some aspects it was similar to what later became the sin offering, combined with the peace offering. It is very important to realize its sacrificial aspect.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the L-RD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. The proofs of its sacrificial characteristics are clear and abundant. The details of the selection of the lamb, "year old males without defect" (Exodus 12:5), the method of sprinkling the blood with hyssop (Exodus 12:22), and the disposal of the remains of the meal (Exodus 12:10), all testify to its sacrificial character. ln fact, Moses himself says, "It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord" (Exodus 12:27).

The purpose of this sacrifice was that the blood of the Passover lamb would be sprinkled on the doorposts and the lintels of the Jewish homes, so that the homes would be protected from the destroying angel. It is impossible for any theologian who takes the Scriptures seriously to come to any other conclusion. Exodus 12:13 says, "The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt."

Whether or not one believes in the doctrine of substitution, an objective reader of Exodus 12 must admit that the doctrine is there. The lamb without blemish was carefully chosen and kept four days. Then the head of the family, Who was the representative, slew the lamb. When he sprinkled the blood of the lamb upon the doorposts and lintels, he confessed that the family stood inperil of the death angel. He and his family accepted God's means of safety. The result was that heand his family were delivered from bondage.

In other words, the Passover is a gospel before the gospel. The Passover was not only a sacrifice, it was a festive meal. It later became the basis of what is known in the Law as the "peace offering." The peace offering was not an offering for peace; it was a meal eaten together by people who were at peace with one another. Later, in the temple days, the peace offering was shared with the priests, who represented God, and the offerer. It became a feast between God and man.

The peace offering always followed the sin offering. It is a picture of our fellowship with our Lord. All of this is typified by the peaceful fellowship which the one who partakes of thePassover meal experiences. "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, & the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin"(1 John 1:7).

[ContraMundum]

The Lamb is only part of the whole midrash about Jesus. He is also the Door, the Bread, Way, Truth, Life, Good Shepherd and other analogous concepts.

But, regarding the Passover, the lamb was also to be eaten.

"Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; but that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire." (JPS)

Were not the sin offerings also eaten? Lev 6:26. Was not a lamb also used for an acceptable sin offering? Lev. 4:32, 5:6, Num 6:14 ...and the rest.

Read John 6:48ff to further add to this salvific mystery!

[kivi]

I beg to differ with you Kivi but that is not what we believe here and this is a Messianic debate forum and you are not allowed to debate against our beliefs. We believe Yeshua was the Lamb provided by Hashem, just as he provided a replacement for Isaac. In the setting of the original Passover, the sacrifice of the lambs signified that those partaking of that sacrifice would be spared from death. If the Israelites ignored or disobeyed G-d's warning, they would suffer the death penalty along with the Egyptians. This sacrifice was required to spare them from death.

For those who don't understand this yet, here's a bit to get you started

PESACH STORY

(EXODUS 12:3-24) Pesach (Passover) has a deeper meaning than just "stepping over" or "leaping over" something to avoid contact. The word "Pesach" comes from the noun "Pasqh" which has no connection with any other Hebrew word. However, "Pesach" does connect with the Egyptian word "pesh ", which means to "spread wings over" to protect. "Pesach" is used in this sense in Isaiah 3 1:5, Genesis 1:2, and Luke 13:34. The deeper meaning of "Pesach" is that the Spirit of G-d was actually hovering over those blood-sprinkled doors, not allowing the destroyer to come in.
Yeshua also has a deeper connection with Pesach than just merely observing it. Knowing that he was raised in a traditional Jewish home, we know that Pesach was a very important part of his life. We also know that the early Messianic Jews considered Yeshua to be their Passover Lamb, as we also believe today. There are some striking parallels when we look deeper into Pesach and Yeshua’s role as the Passover Lamb:


Exodus 12:6 - The Lamb was to be slain
Isaiah 53:7 - The Messiah will be led as a Lamb to slaughter
1st Peter 1:20 - Yeshua was destined to die


Exodus 12:5 - The Lamb must be unblemished
Deut 15:21 - Only that which is perfect can make atonement
John 1:29 - Recognized by John the Baptist
John 18:38 - Pilate found no fault with Yeshua
Hebrews 4:15 - Yeshua was tested in all things
1st Peter 1:19 - Yeshua was an unblemished Lamb


Deut 32:22 - Fire in scripture speaks of God’s judgment
Isaiah 53:6 - All of our sins are upon Yeshua
Isaiah 53:10 - Yeshua was a guilt offering
Matt 27:46 - Yeshua suffered the fire of God’s wrath
2 Cor 5:21 - Yeshua was made to be sin on our behalf


Passover, a Sacrifice. The Passover was a sacrifice. Modern theologians dispute this but without any basis. It was an unusual sacrifice. In many respects, it differed from the later sacrifices of the Law, but in some aspects it was similar to what later became the sin offering, combined with the peace offering. It is very important to realize its sacrificial aspect.
The proofs of its sacrificial characteristics are clear and abundant. The details of the selection of the lamb, "year old males without defect" (Exodus 12:5), the method of sprinkling the blood with hyssop (Exodus 12:22), and the disposal of the remains of the meal (Exodus 12:10), all testify to its sacrificial character. ln fact, Moses himself says, "It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord" (Exodus 12:27).

The purpose of this sacrifice was that the blood of the Passover lamb would be sprinkled on the doorposts and the lintels of the Jewish homes, so that the homes would be protected from the destroying angel. It is impossible for any theologian who takes the Scriptures seriously to come to any other conclusion. Exodus 12:13 says, "The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt."

Whether or not one believes in the doctrine of substitution, an objective reader of Exodus 12 must admit that the doctrine is there. The lamb without blemish was carefully chosen and kept four days. Then the head of the family, Who was the representative, slew the lamb. When he sprinkled the blood of the lamb upon the doorposts and lintels, he confessed that the family stood inperil of the death angel. He and his family accepted God's means of safety. The result was that heand his family were delivered from bondage.

In other words, the Passover is a gospel before the gospel. The Passover was not only a sacrifice, it was a festive meal. It later became the basis of what is known in the Law as the "peace offering." The peace offering was not an offering for peace; it was a meal eaten together by people who were at peace with one another. Later, in the temple days, the peace offering was shared with the priests, who represented God, and the offerer. It became a feast between God and man.

The peace offering always followed the sin offering. It is a picture of our fellowship with our Lord. All of this is typified by the peaceful fellowship which the one who partakes of thePassover meal experiences. "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, & the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from every sin"(1 John 1:7).
I am confused. I was told that this was a Messianic Judaism forum set up for debate, which impiles that multiple opinions are sought. Based on the many posts I have read in this forum, I thought that Jews with orthodox beliefs/practices were allowed to present their tradition just like messianics with their beliefs were allowed. If I am mistaken and this is a closed debate forum in which only messianics are allowed to post, my apologies and I will leave.

[Steve Petersen]

Were not the sin offerings also eaten? Lev 6:26. Was not a lamb also used for an acceptable sin offering? Lev. 4:32, 5:6, Num 6:14 ...and the rest.

The sin offering was eaten by the priests, not by the offerer.

Pauls seems to make the Jesus/Pesach lamb connection with the element of removal of the leaven at Passover:

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[visionary]

I am confused. I was told that this was a Messianic Judaism forum set up for debate, which impiles that multiple opinions are sought. Based on the many posts I have read in this forum, I thought that Jews with orthodox beliefs/practices were allowed to present their tradition just like messianics with their beliefs were allowed. If I am mistaken and this is a closed debate forum in which only messianics are allowed to post, my apologies and I will leave.You are fine... as long as you stay within the rules.

[kivi]

You are fine... as long as you stay within the rules.
Am I within the rules if I stay within the limits I just listed. I mean no disrespect. But I need to know that if I set the orthodox tradition, objectively and clearly and honestly, without ridiculing or belittling the messianic belief, so that it is side by side with whatever messianic belief is presented, that I am within the rules. There has been enough finger pointing and 'I'm right and your wrong' discussions and very little clear and honest comparisons of the facts. I would want to deal with facts in this forum.

[Kris10leigh]

Am I within the rules if I stay within the limits I just listed. I mean no disrespect. But I need to know that if I set the orthodox tradition, objectively and clearly and honestly, without ridiculing or belittling the messianic belief, so that it is side by side with whatever messianic belief is presented, that I am within the rules. There has been enough finger pointing and 'I'm right and your wrong' discussions and very little clear and honest comparisons of the facts. I would want to deal with facts in this forum.

Personally, I think you couldn't be more respectful than you are! What good would a debate be if we only debated each other?
:thumbsup:

[ContraMundum]

The sin offering was eaten by the priests, not by the offerer.

Yes, indeed. I think the verses I posted outlined that.

Pauls seems to make the Jesus/Pesach lamb connection with the element of removal of the leaven at Passover:

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

There are layers of understanding in this passage, and a lot of glorious imagery. By Ch.11 we see the liturgical aspect of this, which is an icon of the spiritual truth behind it.

[visionary]

Am I within the rules if I stay within the limits I just listed. I mean no disrespect. But I need to know that if I set the orthodox tradition, objectively and clearly and honestly, without ridiculing or belittling the messianic belief, so that it is side by side with whatever messianic belief is presented, that I am within the rules. There has been enough finger pointing and 'I'm right and your wrong' discussions and very little clear and honest comparisons of the facts. I would want to deal with facts in this forum.Problem lies in the CF rules are not within your faith's guidelines. If fact, many of us find some of the ruling, not within our faith's guidelines. Parts of our faith are not allowed to be discussed on the forum because of the quidelines and that includes here in this corner. So again I am giving you friendly good advice, read and understand that the rules are adhered to for all posters. Please post accordingly, irregardless of your personal faith. We do.

[stone]

You are correct. The Pesach Korban [offering of the lamb] specifically is referred to as a thanksgiving korban and, as such, has nothing to do with atonement or forgiveness. Lambs, a symbol of one of the Egyptian gods, were taken and tied before the door of all Jewish houses in Egypt on Rosh Chodesh [the new moon, the start of the month, 15 days before Passover] so that all of the Egyptians would see and ask questions. The event was to be a public as possible. The Egyptians were specifically told that the lambs would be killed and eaten on the 15th of Nissan and that the 1st born and all of the idols of the Egyptians would be destroyed. After the previous 9 Plagues, the Egyptian ist born believed the Jews and there was a civil war between Pharo's army and the Egyptian 1st born. The Egyptians 1st born were defeated by the Egyptian army and the 10th Plague come to pass. There is nothing in the taking, killing, eating for purpose of the Pesach Korban that has anything to do with sin or forgiveness or atonement. It is all about thanksgiving, victory and liberation.


:confused: