Seder vs. Christian Seder?

[Kris10leigh]

What is the difference between a Jewish Seder and a Christian Seder? (I seek to learn, not to debate. ;)) The Seder my family and I have done for the past five years is a Christian Seder, though it doesn't point to Yeshua in any way, so I'm not sure how it is different. (I got the Haggadah online somewhere, so I can't even site it for reference).

What do Messianics use for the Haggadah? I am starting to recognize the incredible importance of Passover and how it relates to Yeshua. Is there a particular Haggadah that stresses Yeshua?

[Wags]

First Fruits of Zion (http://www.ffoz.org) has several articles related to Passover on their site. They also introduced a Messianic Haggadah last year.

We have chosen to us "The Messianic Passover Haggadah" (http://www.messianicjewish.net/cgi-bin/webstore/quikstore.cgi) it is a bit short and simplistic compared to say a Conservative Haggadah (its more like a reform version), but it was the best that was available at the time and will work until we find something better to invest in. (We purchased a few dozen - there is a discount for bulk purchases.) You can see a sample page on the website and there is also a separate preparation guide available.

You can also find it at Amazon.com and it looks you can view all the pages there.

[Lulav]

What is the difference between a Jewish Seder and a Christian Seder? (I seek to learn, not to debate. ;)) The Seder my family and I have done for the past five years is a Christian Seder, though it doesn't point to Yeshua in any way, so I'm not sure how it is different. (I got the Haggadah online somewhere, so I can't even site it for reference).

What do Messianics use for the Haggadah? I am starting to recognize the incredible importance of Passover and how it relates to Yeshua. Is there a particular Haggadah that stresses Yeshua?It is a Christian Seder yet doesn't point to Yeshua in any way?:eek::scratch: Then what makes it Christian? I 'm confused.

I wrote my own a few years back, but am revising it for this year. I will probably have it ready to post online if you want ,by early next week. It shows throughout the whole thing that the Passover that was given in Egypt and commanded to be told each year was really a preparation for the lamb that G-d would provide himself, which he promised to Abraham so long ago.

Is this Christian Seder something like a Christian understanding of the 'last supper'?

I really hate that term though, you know why? Because it's applied to convicted criminals on death row and is their last meal, but we know and our faith in him knows this was not his last meal, he ate, I think three times after his resurrection with his talmidim. Mostly fish, ;) and I make sure I have fish at my Seder and it isn't gefilte, it's Talapia, because they had that in Egypt and it is also found in the Galilee.

[Kris10leigh]

It is a Christian Seder yet doesn't point to Yeshua in any way?:eek::scratch: Then what makes it Christian? I 'm confused.
It's been a year since I've opened it and my memory isn't the best, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It may! Honestly, I'm generally more worried about what my boys are doing than paying much attention to the focus of the event. :sigh: ADD at its finest. I try!

I wrote my own a few years back, but am revising it for this year. I will probably have it ready to post online if you want ,by early next week.
Yes, please!! :clap:

Is this Christian Seder something like a Christian understanding of the 'last supper'? I don't remember it being related in this way, but I have new eyes this year. I'm going to have to find mine and read through it.

I really hate that term though, you know why? Because it's applied to convicted criminals on death row and is their last meal, but we know and our faith in him knows this was not his last meal, he ate, I think three times after his resurrection with his talmidim.
I'm glad you explained that because you've mentioned it before and I wondered.;)

[Lulav]

It really should be called his last Seder, as it was his last Seder, but not last meal or 'supper'. There is a big difference but when you want to sever the Jewish ties, that must be changed too. And that is what the church did, such a shame as it makes confusing what is plain if left in it's original context and culture.

[ChavaK]

I am starting to recognize the incredible importance of Passover and how it relates to Yeshua.


I can't see any connection myself, but I would be curious
to know what relationship you see between Jesus and Pesach?
I always appreciate learning about a different perspective,
other than the Jewish one...it's good to understand how
others see things...
:wave:

[Kris10leigh]

I can't see any connection myself, but I would be curious
to know what relationship you see between Jesus and Pesach?
I always appreciate learning about a different perspective,
other than the Jewish one...it's good to understand how
others see things...
:wave:
Exactly how I feel!! :clap:

Christians have always talked about being "saved" and I never understood what that meant, exactly. But when Yeshua is related back to Passover, it makes sense to me. The Hebrews were commanded to mark their doorways with the blood of the lamb. On that night, God "passed over" them, or "saved them". In the same way, and on the same night (or at least leading up to it), Yeshua shed His blood, thus "saving" us.

Saving us from what exactly I'm still considering. It's supposed to be from our sins. I was hit on the head with the revelation of how Yeshua is related to the Passover lamb. I'm waiting for the same brick to fall on this matter as well. ;)

[ChavaK]

. I was hit on the head with the revelation of how Yeshua is related to the Passover lamb.

To me they reflect two totally different concepts, but since this isn't
a debate section, I'll let it go.
But....can you explain further how you think Jesus is related to
the Pesach lamb? I still do not understand your view..
many thanks, :wave:

[Wags]

Chava - take a look at The Messianic Passover Haggadah (http://christianforums.com/I%20got%20my%20hands%20slapped%20for%20pointing%20out%20that%20Contra%20was%20Anglican%20and%20for%20being%20sarcastic%20-%20apparently%20that%20is%20harassment.%20%20%20%20Wonder%20what%20they%20call%20what%20he%20has%20been%20doing%20to%20folks%20in%20this%20forum%20for%20years?)on Amazon. You can read the whole thing in the "search inside" feature - that should give you an idea about parts Messianics think relates.

[Kris10leigh]

To me they reflect two totally different concepts, but since this isn't
a debate section, I'll let it go.
But....can you explain further how you think Jesus is related to
the Pesach lamb? I still do not understand your view..
many thanks, :wave:
I would love to take this over to debate! (I think...knowing I'm not very good at it. ;) )

I'll start up a topic, ok? http://christianforums.com/t7129535-yeshua-as-the-passover-lamb.html#post45828742

[Skeeterbug]

To me they reflect two totally different concepts, but since this isn't
a debate section, I'll let it go.
But....can you explain further how you think Jesus is related to
the Pesach lamb? I still do not understand your view..
many thanks, :wave:


The afikomen. you put 3 matzos in a afikomen bag, the middle one is broken and a piece is wrapped in linen (sound familier) and it is hidden by the father and later in the seder the kids look for it and the child who finds it goes to the father and redeems it for a price. then the participatants at the seder take a piece of the broken matzo and eats it with wine (sound familier)

[alilsa]

My church plans to have another christian last supper Sun. on Passover because the pastor didn't think that having it on Easter without following Passover was right. I'm not sure what the point is since the Jewish Passover is different from the last supper. Jews that celebrate Passover, are there much emphasis on the whole story in Exodus. Since most of the Jews aren't celebrating in Egypt (unless some live there by choice). Are there any message to it about not being in bondage or what is the message of Passover without Jesus in say Orthodox Jews or are they looking for a future messiah? What is the next Jewish holiday after Passover about? Does matzos have salt in them?

[Wags]

The last supper should more correctly be called the last seder - since Yeshua did eat again before he left this earth. Non-messianic Jews that keep Passover are following the commands in scripture to tell their children of the miracles God did in freeing them from slavery. Even without a mention of Yeshua it is still a very moving ceremony.

The appointed times are Passover, followed the next day by the Freat of Unleavened Bread (these are generally referred to collectively as Passover.) And then there is Feast of First Fruits - this is the Day that Yeshua arose as the First Fruits of those that sleep in the dust. After that is Shavout - what you would know as Pentecost. Then there is a lull until the fall feasts - Yom Terruah (also known as Rosh Hashanah) - Feast of Trumpets, 10 days later is Yom Kippur the Day of Atonement and 5 days after that is Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles when Yeshua may well have been born. (The word became flesh and Tabernacled among us.) Those are the seven special times appointed by the Most High as outlined in Lev 23.

[Lulav]

My church plans to have another christian last supper Sun. on Passover because the pastor didn't think that having it on Easter without following Passover was right. I'm not sure what the point is since the Jewish Passover is different from the last supper. Jews that celebrate Passover, are there much emphasis on the whole story in Exodus. Since most of the Jews aren't celebrating in Egypt (unless some live there by choice). Are there any message to it about not being in bondage or what is the message of Passover without Jesus in say Orthodox Jews or are they looking for a future messiah? What is the next Jewish holiday after Passover about? Does matzos have salt in them? We are commanded to tell this story, as an ordinance forever. It shows how G-d promised four things in connection to the Exodus from Egypt which symbolizes those in bondage to sin.

He promised to

1. bring us out from under the burden of the Egytptians, this is slavery and we all are slaves to sin

2. Rid us or cleanse us from the bondage that sin puts us in

3. Redeem us with an out stretched arm and great judgements against those who kept us in bondage ( the plagues he sent on the Egyptians)

4. to take us for a people and he would be our G-d

G-d fulfilled these in a final way when he sent Jesus. At the cross he paid for our sins, the penalty that G-d says is owed. Thus freeing us that believe in this sacrifice from being slaves to sin, we are cleansed and no longer in bondage. He redeemed us when he stretched out his arms willingly and was nailed to the cross. He will ( still to come) take us for his people ( his bride) and the marriage supper of the Lamb, and will be our G-d.

You can get matzah without salt, but it is less than tasteless. :sick:

most only has a small amount, and not on top like crackers.

Manischewitz makes unsalted matzo (http://www.manischewitz.com/products/matzo/matzo.php)

[ContraMundum]

To me they reflect two totally different concepts, but since this isn't
a debate section, I'll let it go.
But....can you explain further how you think Jesus is related to
the Pesach lamb? I still do not understand your view..
many thanks, :wave:

I realise you'd find it difficult to get and keep this, but this book (http://store.jewsforjesus.org/ppp/product.php?prodid=885) might be useful. :)