Wearing tzitzit

[green suiter]

I know that the Good Book says that we are supposed to wear them to remind us of the 613 commandments. I know that they are tied in a certain way with a certain number of threads for this. In today's society though, do we wear them only during Shabbat and Feasts? I am in a profession that does not allow me to wear them in a way that they show. What constitutes a corner? Dress today from the past is completely different.

Numbers 15:38-40 Speak to the people of Israel instructing them to make, through all their generations, tzitziyot on the corners of their garments and to put with the tzitzit on each corner a blue thread. It is to be a tzitzit for you to look at and thereby remember all of Adonai's mitzvot and obey them, so that you won't go around wherever your own heart and eyes lead you to prostitute yourselves; but it will help you remember and obey all my mitzvot and be holy for your G-d.

Deuteronomy 22:12
You are to make for yourself twisted cords on the four corners of the garment you wrap around yourself.

[Talmidah]

I know that the Good Book says that we are supposed to wear them to remind us of the 613 commandments. I know that they are tied in a certain way with a certain number of threads for this. In today's society though, do we wear them only during Shabbat and Feasts? I am in a profession that does not allow me to wear them in a way that they show. What constitutes a corner? Dress today from the past is completely different.

My son does not yet wear a tallit (he isn't bar mitzvah yet). But he does wear a tallit katan under his clothes. This is make of T-shirt material and has 4 corners unto which is tied the tzitzit. He keeps the tzitzit tucked in most of the time, but says that he can feel then rub against his legs and it reminds him to act the way HaShem wants him to.

Here is an example:

Tallit Katan (http://www.judaicadirect.com/category/45/Tallit_Katan)

[The Thadman]

I know that the Good Book says that we are supposed to wear them to remind us of the 613 commandments. I know that they are tied in a certain way with a certain number of threads for this. In today's society though, do we wear them only during Shabbat and Feasts? I am in a profession that does not allow me to wear them in a way that they show. What constitutes a corner? Dress today from the past is completely different. There are several traditions on how to tie them, and the number of knots, twists and wrappings varries. The only Biblical command is to make twisted tassels that contain a blue cord.

The corners or "kanafot" of one's clothing is litterally "extremities." Kanaf is used frequently in the Tanakh as "wings" and "skirt." The earth is described as having four kanafot, but since it is a sphere, we know that this probably refers to the compass points or some similar concept. Some believe that you need to have a special piece of clothing with four corners, such as a tallit or tallit katan. Others, such as myself, simply sew them onto the extremities of our everyday clothing and coats as described in Numbers and Deuteronomy.

They are to be looked upon and seen as a reminder to do God's commandments, and as such, I personally believe that they should be worn as often as possible (their reminding me has saved my skin before).

Furthermore, they can be put on tastefully (and sometimes even stylishly ;) ) in almost any wardrobe. What job do you have that prohibits this? Perhaps we can help ya :)

Numbers 15:38-40 Speak to the people of Israel instructing them to make, through all their generations, tzitziyot on the corners of their garments and to put with the tzitzit on each corner a blue thread. It is to be a tzitzit for you to look at and thereby remember all of Adonai's mitzvot and obey them, so that you won't go around wherever your own heart and eyes lead you to prostitute yourselves; but it will help you remember and obey all my mitzvot and be holy for your G-d.

Deuteronomy 22:12
You are to make for yourself twisted cords on the four corners of the garment you wrap around yourself. Peace!
-Steve-o

[Katydid]

Hey, my hubby is at work so I will answer for him. He is in the military and he isn't allowed to have them visible while he is in uniform. Any suggestions would be great. Also, does anyone know where I can get some for him?

[brentsbaby612]

I'm currently in the process of making my husband's.


But if you google it I'm sure you'll find others you can buy!:)

[WildCelt]

Hey Thadman (and others), can you post a pic with yours? I'd love to see how you implement this mitzvah.

[Sephania]

I'm currently in the process of making my husband's. But here's where you can buy one!http://www.karaite-korner.org/tzitzit.shtml

I personally like this one a lot!
But if you google it I'm sure you'll find others!:)Those are not Kosher tzitzi. To me they look like a lanyard which is something I used to make at summer camp and you used it to wear around your neck with a whistle or you could use it for keys. The Rabbis have come up with a way to tie them that honors HaShem. Just because it isn't written in the Torah does not devaluate it. This is something that the L-RD left to the creativeness of the Ruach HaKodesh to inspire. The whole point of them is to remember HaShem and all his mitzvot, and the traditional way does that very well.

A cool article to read regarding tzitzi Did Yeshua wear them? (http://www.shofars.org/tallit.html)

Tassels for today - Where are they found in the Brit Chadasha (http://www.eliyah.com/tassels.html)


Remember that the commandment is to tie them yourself.

The symbolism for the numbers is central to the overall symbolism of the tallit. Seven and eight equals fifteen, which in gematria (numerology) is equal to the two letters yod and heh the first two letters of the Name of God. Eleven is the equivalent of vav and heh the last two letters of the Name of God. The total, twenty six, is thus equivalent and representative YHVH the four letter Name of God. Thirteen is equivalent to the Hebrew word Ehad alef, chet, dalet which means One. So to look at the tzitzit is to remember and know that "God is One". According to the second way of winding, each section is a different letter of God's four letter Name. The central commandment surrounding tzitzit is: "And you should see it and remember all of God's commandments and do them".

How do the tzitzit do this?

In gematria, tzitzit = six hundred. In addition there are eight strands plus five knots. The total is six hundred and thirteen which, according tradition, is the exact number of commandments (mitzvot) in the Torah. Just to look at them, therefore, is to remember all the mitzvot.
Here is a good site with step by step instructions on how to tie with the techelet.


http://www.begedivri.com/techelet/tyingA-1.htm and it gives handy hints to make it easier and neater. this is the ashkenazi way which uses the wraps instead of the Sephardi which uses a macrame type slip twist. I prefet this to make it more accurate but this site still gives good tips that can be used for either.

[The Thadman]

Hey Thadman (and others), can you post a pic with yours? I'd love to see how you implement this mitzvah.
Gimmie a sec and I'll see what I can do :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[The Thadman]

Alright, here's me at approximately 2.5 minutes ago :)

These are my black tzitzyot that I wear to work on the pockets of my cargo pants. With the pocket flaps as they are, I can't think of anything else that would better fly as "wings" (wings being one of the many definitions of kanafot).

That blue nylon-looking thingy in the second picture is my wallet. Every time I reach down to get it, I have to handle my tzitzyot, so I am FULLY aware that they're there. :)

When I sit down, I usually fold them over my lap so they don't catch on anything.

... Geez, these pants make my legs look fat :) Probably because I put the CARGO in Cargo Pants. Alone, with all the stuff I have in them, they weigh 15 lbs! :D

Peace!
-Steve-o

[The Thadman]

And this is one that I wear around my neck, simply because it was the "odd tassel out." I made five one time instead of four by mistake, so I figured it shouldn't go to waste :)

This is a 2 1/2" design in white, twisted and tied with blue, the kind that my Other Half wears.

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Sephania]

Steve did you say the blessing when you tied them?

[WildCelt]

Awesome! Thanks, achi. :clap:

[brentsbaby612]

Those are not Kosher tzitzi. To me they look like a lanyard which is something I used to make at summer camp and you used it to wear around your neck with a whistle or you could use it for keys.

Oddly enough the one's I made my husband look a lot like Steve's!! Because of my husband's line of work I made them short. And I'm going to put one on all four of his pockets I think.

Zayit: Who says they aren't "kosher". Notice that it's a Karaite website I posted. I don't beleive in all that extra "stuff" rabbis add, just what the bible says about the tzitzit. But those that I posted where to big for me also, I just wanted to give an idea and I thought they looked pretty!:)
There are only four requirements: (1) They must be tassels, (2) twisted together, (3) tied with a tekhlet (blue) cord and (4) to be worn on our everyday clothing's extremities. (copy and paisted from steve-o's PM):)

[Sephania]

You forgot one, that you are to make them for yourself. :)

So if you dont' follow the traditional Hebrew way then how do you decide how to "twist" them together? From what I could see of steve's they looked to be tied Ashkenazi style but with the correct number of twists and knots. Besides the site you posted in the picture you can clearly see that it doesn't go by your number 3 which you haven't quite worded as the scripture says:


tzitziyot on the corners of their garments and to put with the tzitzit on each corner a blue thread.
Notice that it says "a" blue thread. Clearly that site used more than one blue thread, in fact it looked as though there were just as many blue as white.

[The Thadman]

Steve did you say the blessing when you tied them?
What blessing is there in Torah to recite? :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[simchat_torah]

Please take no offense...
These are my black tzitzyot that I wear to work on the pockets of my cargo pants.
How do the karaites work this into "corners"? Is that kinda thrown out of the interpretation?

[simchat_torah]

Also, I noticed you do actually use the traditional style of knots and wrappings.

[simchat_torah]

What blessing is there in Torah to recite? :)
Again, no offense please...
but it seems like you have an amalgamation of observances... traditional knot tyings, but not the traditional blessings.... etc.

I think Zayit asked a legitimate question. I mean, we really aren't sure which observances you choose and don't choose.

;)

Wouldn't it be valid to ask if you happen to say the blessings when wearing them?

-yafet

[simchat_torah]

but it seems like you have an amalgamation of observances
Btw, this isn't a 'slight', but merely an observation. Please don't take it as a jab :)

[brentsbaby612]

Just out of curiosity, what does yours look like yafet?:) I'm looking for all the idea's I can get!

Zayit: I have a lot to say about your last post but since this forum is about how and not if I'm going to just let it go.:) If you want a debate let's take it somewhere's else.

[simchat_torah]

Mine look just like Thadman's except with white and blue instead of black and blue... same knots and wrapts, etc. I made about 5 sets of 4 on my own, and have purchased a couple of sets as well.

[simchat_torah]

Shalom BB,

I think that Zayit was in fact discussing the "how to". Feel free to share your thoughts ;)

[The Thadman]

Please take no offense...

How do the karaites work this into "corners"? Is that kinda thrown out of the interpretation?

No offense akhi :)

Kanaf is best translated "extremity." The word is used as "wing" (Gen 1:21, Ex 25:20, Lev 1:16, etc.) and "skirt" (Deut 22:30, 27:20, Rth 3:9, 1 Sam 15:27, etc.) as well throughout the entire Tanakh. The pocket flaps are what most resemble wings to me, as they are the most extreme edges of the pants horizontally, and there happen to be four of them. They are in a place where I look upon them regularly. :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[simchat_torah]

Actually, I think you may be mistaken achi. The root of Kanaf (pronounced Kaw-naf : corners) is the Hebrew word Kanaf (pronounced Kaw-nawf : wings) looks the same in English transliteration, eh achi? But the difference between the two is merely a single vowel marking. However, the two words actually are different, as indicated by the vowel markings.

The Hebrew word for corners, as I stated, can actually find its root in the word wings. This is where the Rabbis have drawn messianic insights from passages such as "He will rise up with healing in his wings" to be a play on words to mean that the messiah will have healing in his tzitzit.

Looking at garments, especially those of anceint times, where are the 'wings'? Certainly, even when we ignore all linguistics, the context alone of Numbers 15 would tell us that corners would be the proper translation/meaning and not wings.

Wings is certainly an insightful play on words and provides a lot of depth to various prophecies, but the literal hebrew would be corners. If Karaite Judaism was to wave the banner of 'literal-hebrew-torah-based judaism', I would think that measures would be taken to place the tzitzit upon the corners of a garment.

Anywho... I didn't mean to make a bug-a-boo about nothing, it was just a curious insight of my own.

shalom,
yafet

[Sephania]

Just out of curiosity, what does yours look like yafet?:) I'm looking for all the idea's I can get!

Zayit: I have a lot to say about your last post but since this forum is about how and not if I'm going to just let it go.:) If you want a debate let's take it somewhere's else.Shalom Brentsbaby, I was not trying to offend you, however it seems that you took offence, but unrighteously I believe. The OP wrote:

I know that the Good Book says that we are supposed to wear them to remind us of the 613 commandments. I know that they are tied in a certain way with a certain number of threads for this. That is the discussion which properly belongs in this forum. When you posted, you posted a site that disregards Rabbinic halacha, this is what I posted against, not you. but now you say:


:Zayit: I have a lot to say about your last post but since this forum is about how and not if I'm going to just let it go.:) If you want a debate let's take it somewhere's else.
This forum is about "HALACHA", which is written by Rabbi's directing us how to follow Torah, not about how we interpret to follow it ourselves. The traditional way that the Rabbis taught to tie tzitziot is in the 7,8 11 & 13 wraps ( Which remind of of HaShem, which is part of the commandment) and if the proper blue is available you use ONE blue thread ( this is also a part of the commandment that reminds us of where He resides) . That is the halacha on this I have learned, if not someone please correct me.

But from what I see by what You wrote:

I don't beleive in all that extra "stuff" rabbis add, just what the bible says about the tzitzit.
If you "don't believe in all that extra "stuff" ( which includes lifetimes of studying the Word) Rabbis add, then this isn't the forum for you for that is exactly what this forum is to discuss, all that "Stuff". :) May I suggest that means that you need to "take it else where"? As you so pleasantly told me?

If you would like a private rebuttal feel free to PM me, I have no problem with your beliefs, just where you want to present them, especially to someone who came here to learn and was given wrong information.

[simchat_torah]

The traditional way that the Rabbis taught to tie tzitziot is in the 6,7, 11 & 13 wraps ...

Actually, to clarify, it's 7, 8, 11, and 13 ;)

shalom,
yafet

[Sephania]

What blessing is there in Torah to recite? :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
Well I am sure that you know the blessing for putting on the tzitzit?

Baruch atah adonoi, elohenu, melech ha olam asher kidshanu b'mistzvotav ve-tzevanu layitatef b'tzitit"

Blessed are you, the Lord our God, ruler of the universe, who has made us holy with His commandments and commanded us to wrap ourselves in fringes.

When you tie them for each knot you should say: L'shem mitzvat tzitzit

This proclaims why you are doing this, "for the sake of the mitzvah regarding tying tzitzit"

Actually there are two commandments about tzitzit, most this the one is a reiteration but I don't think so


"… they shall make for themselves tzitzit on the corners of their garments throughout the ages; let them attach a cord of tekhelet to the tzitzit of the corner." (Bemidbar 15:38)
"You shall make tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself." (Devarim 22:12)
Notice that the first one talks about garment(S) but the second talks about THE garment that you COVER yourself with.

So this implies to me that they should be more than one place. Hence the talit katan, inside and tallit outside.

[Sephania]

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Actually, to clarify, it's 7, 8, 11, and 13 ;)

shalom,
yafet
Thank you for that correction Yafet, I am not quite awake yet this morningn and I am also typing with carpal tunnel syndrome and two bandaged fingers. :help:

[Henaynei]

Remember, gentle and honorable posters, to keep it "between the lines" - i.e. keep all discussions in this sub-forum on HOW to obey Halakah (rabbinic determinations on how to obey Torah), not if there should be Halakah, if it is righteous to follow Halakah or where Halakah comes from. Those discussions belong in the general MJ forum ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Moderator
http://www.nehemiah-center.org/Henny.jpg

[simchat_torah]

thank you henny.

[iitb]

Thank you for that correction Yafet, I am not quite awake yet this morningn and I am also typing with carpal tunnel syndrome and two bandaged fingers. :help:
Now that's a committed poster!

[brentsbaby612]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: brentsbaby612




Just out of curiosity, what does yours look like yafet? I'm looking for all the idea's I can get!

Zayit: I have a lot to say about your last post but since this forum is about how and not if I'm going to just let it go. If you want a debate let's take it somewhere's else.



Shalom Brentsbaby, I was not trying to offend you, however it seems that you took offence, but unrighteously I believe. The OP wrote:

Quote:




I know that the Good Book says that we are supposed to wear them to remind us of the 613 commandments. I know that they are tied in a certain way with a certain number of threads for this.



That is the discussion which properly belongs in this forum. When you posted, you posted a site that disregards Rabbinic halacha, this is what I posted against, not you. but now you say:

Quote:





:Zayit: I have a lot to say about your last post but since this forum is about how and not if I'm going to just let it go. If you want a debate let's take it somewhere's else.




This forum is about "HALACHA", which is written by Rabbi's directing us how to follow Torah, not about how we interpret to follow it ourselves. The traditional way that the Rabbis taught to tie tzitziot is in the 7,8 11 & 13 wraps ( Which remind of of HaShem, which is part of the commandment) and if the proper blue is available you use ONE blue thread ( this is also a part of the commandment that reminds us of where He resides) . That is the halacha on this I have learned, if not someone please correct me.

But from what I see by what You wrote:
Quote:





I don't beleive in all that extra "stuff" rabbis add, just what the bible says about the tzitzit.




If you "don't believe in all that extra "stuff" ( which includes lifetimes of studying the Word) Rabbis add, then this isn't the forum for you for that is exactly what this forum is to discuss, all that "Stuff". May I suggest that means that you need to "take it else where"? As you so pleasantly told me?

If you would like a private rebuttal feel free to PM me, I have no problem with your beliefs, just where you want to present them, especially to someone who came here to learn and was given wrong information.

Whatever..I personally don't care. I erased to site just for you so let's move on. ( I would have appreciated it if you had started you post with more gentile words instead of making fun of something I had posted but like I said whatever I'm over it now) I was trying stop it so that Henny wouldn't have to post her gentile reminder but I guess it was best being said anyway. So... Let's continue!:)...shall we.

[brentsbaby612]

Mine look just like Thadman's except with white and blue instead of black and blue... same knots and wrapts, etc. I made about 5 sets of 4 on my own, and have purchased a couple of sets as well.

Mine are white and blue too!
So where does the amount of knots and wraps come from anyway?

[simchat_torah]

It comes from Gematria. Gematria is assigning of numbers to each Hebrew letter. And you can do it in reverse, have numbers represent letters. Thus, the tzitzit actually has messages written in the number of wraps, etc.

[Sephania]

As I explained in my post #7. :)

[The Thadman]

Actually, I think you may be mistaken achi. The root of Kanaf (pronounced Kaw-naf : corners) is the Hebrew word Kanaf (pronounced Kaw-nawf : wings) looks the same in English transliteration, eh achi? But the difference between the two is merely a single vowel marking. However, the two words actually are different, as indicated by the vowel markings.

In what dialect of Hebrew? Because I can tell you that the vowel markings were not originally there, and the vowels and pronounciation were different from the Massoretic text we have today. :)

The Hebrew word for corners, as I stated, can actually find its root in the word wings. This is where the Rabbis have drawn messianic insights from passages such as "He will rise up with healing in his wings" to be a play on words to mean that the messiah will have healing in his tzitzit.

Looking at garments, especially those of anceint times, where are the 'wings'? Certainly, even when we ignore all linguistics, the context alone of Numbers 15 would tell us that corners would be the proper translation/meaning and not wings.

It would be used in the same fashion that the term "wing" can be used today: The outermost edge that extends beyond the main body of an object.

Wings is certainly an insightful play on words and provides a lot of depth to various prophecies, but the literal hebrew would be corners. If Karaite Judaism was to wave the banner of 'literal-hebrew-torah-based judaism', I would think that measures would be taken to place the tzitzit upon the corners of a garment.

Anywho... I didn't mean to make a bug-a-boo about nothing, it was just a curious insight of my own.

shalom,
yafet

This phrase "the four kanafot" is also used in Isaiah to describe the earth which is indeed a sphere (Is 11:12; 41:9). It must mean "extremities" in this context.

Secondly, what about "skirt"?

Thirdly, how do feet have corners? (Exodus 25:26)

Fourth, how do beards have corners? (Levitucis 21:5)

Fifth, how does hair have corners? (Jeremiah 9:26; 25:23)

As far as I can see, "extremities" is the best way to go so far.

Peace!
-Steve-o

[The Thadman]

Notice that it says "a" blue thread. Clearly that site used more than one blue thread, in fact it looked as though there were just as many blue as white.

There is no indefinite article in Hebrew; hence it says "blue thread/cord" OR "a blue thread/cord."

If I say "I tied the package with cord" how many and how much cord did I use?

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Sephania]

Yes, I see a "Bet" or one isn't used but by this translation

38 'Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them throughout their generations fringes in the corners of their garments, and that they put with the fringe of each corner a thread of blue.

You can surmiss that the fringe means more than one and a thread means one, at least that is how I read it. "The fringe of each corner" show a group of threads and with that is to be put a thread of blue. As you say it doesn't specify a color for the fringes, but I think white was chosen as fine white linen represents purity. And from the Chadasha we see pure white linen garments represent sinlessness, from following in obedience to HaShem, nu?

[debi b]

thought I would throw this in,

Deut 22:12
You shall make fringes upon the four quarters of your cloak, with which you cover yourself.

The Hebrew word for fringes in this verse is "g'dilim"
gimel dalet lamed yod mem ~yldG

just for fun :)

[Aronbengilad]

When I was younger and an Orthodox Jew we always wore tzitzits that were white. I never saw anyone with black. Where does the black Tzitzit come from? I now wear the white and blue tzitzits after living in Israel where you see alot of people wearing the white and blue such as the Breslovers. There are two traditions for tzitzis one is to have one of the eight threads blue and the other is to have 2 of the eight blue. I wear the 2 of the 8 as do most today but some of the Kabbalists believe in only one being blue (see the Bahir). I wonder how they did that? Were the 8 all separate strings or did they have one of the 4 strings dyed half white and half blue?

One doesn't need to have the tzitzis showing many religious Jews have them tucked in.

[simchat_torah]

In what dialect of Hebrew? Because I can tell you that the vowel markings were not originally there, and the vowels and pronounciation were different from the Massoretic text we have today. :)Sorry, but I am no scholar of all things ancient and semetic. I can only tell you what the Hebrew Masoratic texts say, and as far as scholars can tell, these reflect... almost perfectly mirror... all earlier texts. While some of the more ancient texts don't include the vowel points, the Masoratic texts do. It is from these texts that I drew my conclusions.

It would be used in the same fashion that the term "wing" can be used today: The outermost edge that extends beyond the main body of an object.
That is fine if you want to make an analogy, but when we interpret within context... clothing does not have wings, but corners.

This phrase "the four kanafot" is also used in Isaiah to describe the earth which is indeed a sphere (Is 11:12; 41:9). It must mean "extremities" in this context.
Yes, but has traditionally been interpretted and translated as corners.
Secondly, what about "skirt"?
What about it?
Thirdly, how do feet have corners? (Exodus 25:26)
They don't, this is a Hebraic metaphor.
Fourth, how do beards have corners? (Levitucis 21:5)
Another Hebraic metaphor. However, to be honest, this could (and has) been interpreted as the corners that protrude from the skull bones (if you feel with your fingers a bump just under where your earpeice of your glasses would rest on your high cheekbones). I assume you interpret this verse in similar fashion as you seem to be clean shaven in the cartoon of yourself. The Chassidim choose not to shave the hair from the corner and above, which is more than acceptable in Orthodoxy as well.


In other words, yes... corners does fit here ;)


Fifth, how does hair have corners? (Jeremiah 9:26; 25:23)
see above.
As far as I can see, "extremities" is the best way to go so far.
Extremeties would be an excellent all purpose general view of the Hebrew useage... when we take into consideration analogies and metaphors. However, literally speaking it is 'corner'. Wings is another great symbollic type of interpretation. However, keep in mind the context and not only the literal hebrew (which certainly points to corners).

Shalom,
yafet

[Katydid]

WOW I hope my husband doesn't get completely confused by all this.

[simchat_torah]

hehe, well, if you have any questions... most people round these here parts are quite friendly.


I did say most... ***yafet glares at muffler dragon***



;)

[Henaynei]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_3_9v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) "He's friendly, honest! And he doesn't bite ..." (anyone except the garbage man, postman, tax man and the repo man - but *other* than that he is gentle as a kitten!!;) )

[brentsbaby612]

"He's friendly, honest! And he doesn't bite ..." (anyone except the garbage man, postman, tax man and the repo man - but *other* than that he is gentle as a kitten!! )


^_^ funny Henny!