They say you are disobeying God...

[k4c]

Some people say you are disobeying God when we reject the Ten Commandments on stone. But this is a ploy to bring fear upon you and cause you to be blinded to the truth.

The law on stone was part of the Old Covenant and has no authority over a Christian. Read Hebrews 9 carefully and notice how the Ten Commandments, which includes the fourth commandment, is part of the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 9:1-4 Now in that first covenant between God and his people there were rules for worship and there was a sacred tent down here on earth. Inside this place of worship there were two rooms. The first one contained the golden candlestick and a table with special loaves of holy bread upon it; this part was called the Holy Place. Then there was a curtain and behind the curtain was a room called the Holy of Holies. In that room there were a golden incense-altar and the golden chest, called the ark of the covenant, completely covered on all sides with pure gold. Inside the ark were the tablets of stone with the Ten Commandments written on them, and a golden jar with some manna in it, and Aaron's wooden cane that budded.

The commandments of God for the New Covenant Christian is plain and clear.

1 John 3:21-24 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

When we read verses that tell a New Covevant believer to keep the commandments of God our minds should be directed to 1 John 3:21-24 as the pillar of God's commandments for the New Covenant Christian, not the law on stone or anything else from the Old Covenant, which has been made obsolete by Christ.

The words of Jesus teaches us how to love one another. It's these words of Jesus that will be the judge of the New Covevant Christian, not whether or not we kept the Sabbath or anything of the Old Covenant.

John 12:47-48 "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Those of us in the New Covenant have to understand that the Old Covenant, and everything contained in the Old Covenant, has been made obsolete by Christ.

Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So don't get condemned or be afraid when someone tries to say you are disobeying God by rejecting anything from the Old Covevant, including the law on stone.

The New Covenant Christian has the words of Christ to bring them life and strength. Anyone who rejects the words of Christ as the foundation of the New Covenant is to be rejected.

2 John 1:9-11 Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

[Jimlarmore]

There is no difference between the old and new covenants laws. When the Bible says in John 5:21-24 to love one another and to believe in Jesus Christ . That is essentially the same thing Christ Himself said when He said to Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, upon these "commandments" hang all the law and prophets.

Additionally, the book of hebrews uses the same language as Jeremiah when it says that in the new covenant God would write His laws on our hearts instead of on stone. When Jeremiah wrote this the law referred to was the ten commandments . The law referred to in Hebrews was also the ten commandments. The only law of God ever written by the finger of God was the ten commandments. You say some of us try to instill fear in you to observe or keep the ten commandments but your motive/s betray you. Let's be honest, are you trying to say it's now ok to lie, steal, or commit adultery? The only reason you want to throw out the ten is because of the Sabbath commandment. The only laws that were nailed to the cross were the ceremonial laws that involved sacrificing animals. The ten commandments are as eternal as the one who wrote them originally.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[honorthesabbath]

K4C- In another thread I asked you to define the old and new covenants. You didn't do it. You gave an opinion, but you didn't give ONE biblical reference.

So let me ask you this, was covenant was Adam and Eve under?

[Byfaithalone1]

K4C- In another thread I asked you to define the old and new covenants. You didn't do it. You gave an opinion, but you didn't give ONE biblical reference.

So let me ask you this, was covenant was Adam and Eve under?

It's a great question. Why do you conclude that they were under a covenant? What is the Scripture support for concluding that they were?

BFA

[VictorC]

There is no difference between the old and new covenants laws. When the Bible says in John 5:21-24 to love one another and to believe in Jesus Christ . That is essentially the same thing Christ Himself said when He said to Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, upon these "commandments" hang all the law and prophets.
As I recall, this was an answer directed to a lawyer who asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was from the law. The answer was direct, with no attempt to obfuscate:

Matthew 22:34-40
34: But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35: Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No where in this passage do you see Jesus issuing these commandments, do you? These belong to the law of Moses, and were issued already to those covenant members He was addressing.

Now a pertinent question arises.
Why did Jesus return an answer for the greatest commandments from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18, and give these preferences over the ten commandment?
Furthermore, why didn't Jesus rely on the existing commandment of Leviticus 19:18, instructing us to love our neighbors as ourselves?
Instead, He issued a new commandment in John 13:34:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jesus didn't attempt to carry on one part of the 'one law' and abolish another part, but instead affirmed by His actions that Moses was indeed 'one law' (Exodus 12:49) that isn't divisible.

Additionally, the book of hebrews uses the same language as Jeremiah when it says that in the new covenant God would write His laws on our hearts instead of on stone. When Jeremiah wrote this the law referred to was the ten commandments . The law referred to in Hebrews was also the ten commandments.
Yet Jeremiah 31:32 and Hebrews 8:9 both identify that the law written into our hearts and into our minds is not according to the covenant made when God led Israel out of Egypt, a reference to the covenant of the ten commandments (Deuteronomy 4:13). Changing the label on the package does not change the contents, and affixing the label "new" to the Mosaic covenant does not make it new.

Hebrews 10:9 is speaking of the disposition of the first covenant, the ten commandments, when establishing the new covenant:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
The only law of God ever written by the finger of God was the ten commandments.
Are you saying the law-Giver has no right to dispose of the law He created? Nay, by His position as Creator He is sovereign to that law, and look what He does for His adopted sons and daughters:

Matthew 17:24-26
24: And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25: He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26: Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

The Gospel is dependent on the adoption described in Galatians 4:4-7. Just as God is sovereign over His created law, so are His adopted children.
You say some of us try to instill fear in you to observe or keep the ten commandments but your motive/s betray you.
My motive is to escape the condemnation of the law.

Galatians 3:10-14
10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12: And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Let's be honest, are you trying to say it's now ok to lie, steal, or commit adultery? The only reason you want to throw out the ten is because of the Sabbath commandment.
If it isn't okay to break these commandments, what hope do you have remaining, since Romans 3:19 asserts that a continuence of the law's jurisdiction condemns you:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The only laws that were nailed to the cross were the ceremonial laws that involved sacrificing animals. The ten commandments are as eternal as the one who wrote them originally.
Hebrews 7:12
12: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:18-19
18: For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19: For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:28
28: For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Hebrews 8:6-7
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 10:9
9: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Now what was the disposition of the first covenant described here? What do those words mean "taken away"? This is that first covenant, the ministration of death according to 2 Corinthians 3:7, written by God's own finger and carried down the mount by Moses:

Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Exodus 34:27-28
27: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28: And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

That is the first covenant spoken of in Hebrews, which was taken away by Christ Himself, so that it does not remain to condemn you, and the Gentiles would be allowed to partake in salvation (Ephesians 2:11-15).

Victor

[mva1985]

Now a pertinent question arises.
Why did Jesus return an answer for the greatest commandments from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18, and give these preferences over the ten commandment?
Furthermore, why didn't Jesus rely on the existing commandment of Leviticus 19:18, instructing us to love our neighbors as ourselves?
Instead, He issued a new commandment in John 13:34:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.



Those TWO commandments are taken from the very verses you quote and which Jesus was referring to.

Explain to me how exactly are the two commandments that Jesus gave in the NT any different from the two listed in the OT?

Answer is their not different.

[VictorC]

Those TWO commandments are taken from the very verses you quote and which Jesus was referring to.

Explain to me how exactly are the two commandments that Jesus gave in the NT any different from the two listed in the OT?

Answer is their not different.
Why did Jesus issue a new commandment to love one another, instead of relying on the law that says the same thing?
Answer: Because the law of the first covenant has no jurisdiction over those redeemed from it.

Victor

[mva1985]

Why did Jesus issue a new commandment to love one another, instead of relying on the law that says the same thing?
Answer: Because the law of the first covenant has no jurisdiction over those redeemed from it.

Victor
He says "new" and turns around and says the same old thing in the OT - you haven't convinced me.

[VictorC]

He says "new" and turns around and says the same old thing in the OT
Yes - that is the point I'm making. When Jesus spoke to his own, why was it a new commandment, if there was the same thing in a legal package existing already?
you haven't convinced me.
I suppose the idea of applying the laws made for Montana to the inhabitants of Mars makes sense to you. The old law from Leviticus 19:18 wasn't called on for reasons of jurisdiction.

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The reason why "love one another as I have loved you" is a new commandment is because God had now become a man and given an example of how we are to love each other. It was not possible for us to love others as God loved us until God became one of us.

[djconklin]

It was not possible for us to love others as God loved us until God became one of us.

The post sounded good but ... In the OT they were told to love God with all their heart, mind and strength and to love their neighbor as yourself. God wouldn't have asked them to do what they couldn't do.

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Well, that's my take as to why "love one another as I have loved you" is called a new commandment. It's different from the Mosaic commandment because now we have an example as to how to love others. VictorC seems to think that it implies that the commandments given to us by Moses were done away with. What do you think?

[k4c]

The heart and foundation of the New Covenant is love, not the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments can never produce love within a person. We know this is true by what we see in the pharisees and how Jesus dealt with them. They were keepers of the Law but they had no love.

When God writes His law on our hearts and minds He is actually teaching us how to love and what it means to love. These teachings are seen and understood by the words and life of Jesus, not the Ten Commandments. I can keep everyone one of the Ten Commandments and still be an enemy of God.

The law reveals our need. This need is something that can't be fixed. The only thing we can do is die to the old man and start new as a new creation. This new creation is not founded on the law, but rather, on the words and life of Jesus in how we should love and serve one another, in this there is no law.

This new creation is a living and abiding relationship with Christ. We live and interpret life based on the words of Jesus and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the law.

The law has to do with the old man who should be dead and we know that when one is dead the law has no authority over him. If you choose to live by the law you must live by the whole law, not just the Ten Commandments and in doing so you will stand condemned in the end.

As a New Covenant Christian we live and abide in Christ. He becomes our life and our righteousness. We now live by faith working through love in serving one another. This is something the law could never bring out of a person or empower a person to do.

The law brings death and condemnation because it deals with the old man. But in Christ we are dead to the old so that we can live by the new and living way, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory.

[VictorC]

Well, that's my take as to why "love one another as I have loved you" is called a new commandment. It's different from the Mosaic commandment because now we have an example as to how to love others. VictorC seems to think that it implies that the commandments given to us by Moses were done away with. What do you think?
Victor thinks that a lot of the problem with exegesis of the passages in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 is based on the failure to identify the ten commandments by the term God gave them in the law: They are the covenant, according to Exodus 34:27-28 and Deuteronomy 4:13.

In my previous post I had written:
Yet Jeremiah 31:32 and Hebrews 8:9 both identify that the law written into our hearts and into our minds is not according to the covenant made when God led Israel out of Egypt, a reference to the covenant of the ten commandments (Deuteronomy 4:13). Changing the label on the package does not change the contents, and affixing the label "new" to the Mosaic covenant does not make it new.

Hebrews 10:9 is speaking of the disposition of the first covenant, the ten commandments, when establishing the new covenant:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
If the "continuence" of the first covenant was to teach you that you need to love your neighbor, then you have dismissed the reminders of the commandments of God that John makes no small effort in documenting:

1 John 3:20-24
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The question that I would like to ask is from what are we to derive our guidance from?
Are we to derive our guidance from the ministration of death, as the ten commandments are called in 2 Corinthians 3:7?
or
Are we to derive our guidance from the commandments and the Spirit of the Living God Who redeemed us from that ministration of death?

Victor

[PROPHECYKID]

The heart and foundation of the New Covenant is love, not the Ten Commandments.

No it is Jesus. Are you trying to tell me that Love was not as important in the Old covenant as it is in the New. Are you saying that God preferred law over love in the old covenant and switched it in the new covenant? If so then you are saying that God changed.

The Ten Commandments can never produce love within a person. We know this is true by what we see in the pharisees and how Jesus dealt with them. They were keepers of the Law but they had no love.

Exactly! The 10 commandments does not produce love but love produces the 10 commandments.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


When God writes His law on our hearts and minds He is actually teaching us how to love and what it means to love. These teachings are seen and understood by the words and life of Jesus, not the Ten Commandments. I can keep everyone one of the Ten Commandments and still be an enemy of God.

Thats why we are not saved by keeping the law. But God will surely forbid if someone continues in sin.

The law reveals our need. This need is something that can't be fixed. The only thing we can do is die to the old man and start new as a new creation. This new creation is not founded on the law, but rather, on the words and life of Jesus in how we should love and serve one another, in this there is no law.

The law reveals our need of a Saviour from the sin that results. If we remain in our carnal nature we will remain under the condemnation of the law because the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and cannot keep it. The law is spiritual and a carnal man cannot keep it. Our only way out is by letting God take full control and be led by the spirit. Then we become spiritual and the spiritual law is upheld and therefore is not a law of sin and death but a law of life and peace.

This new creation is a living and abiding relationship with Christ. We live and interpret life based on the words of Jesus and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the law.

But the spirit of God will not have us break the law. God's spirit will not lead us to sin.

The law has to do with the old man who should be dead and we know that when one is dead the law has no authority over him. If you choose to live by the law you must live by the whole law, not just the Ten Commandments and in doing so you will stand condemned in the end.

If Grace does not cover you you will stand condemned. God's grace is what saves us from sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. Its simple. My bible says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and he is enmity against God. Wouldn't the spiritual mind be the opposite?

As a New Covenant Christian we live and abide in Christ. He becomes our life and our righteousness. We now live by faith working through love in serving one another. This is something the law could never bring out of a person or empower a person to do.

The law has no power over one's conviction. The law could have and can never cause someone to love. It is God's spirit that causes us to love. You seem to misunderstand the role of the law. No law, no sin. No sin, no Death. No Death, no Saviour.

[QUOTE]The law brings death and condemnation because it deals with the old man.

Exactly because the old man cannot keep it and it therefore condemns that man as a sinner. But a man in the control of God's spirit will not sin, therefore her will not break the law. You seem to be missing an important point. The law does condemn, but it condemns because of the sin that occurs when you break it. Paul revealed that concept when he said that it was not the law that was actually the problem but the sin that comes from breaking the law.

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I can keep everyone one of the Ten Commandments and still be an enemy of God.

1. Could you really keep every one of the Ten Commandments?

2. Supposing, hypothetically, that you could, how could you then be an enemy of God?

[k4c]

1. Could you really keep every one of the Ten Commandments?

2. Supposing, hypothetically, that you could, how could you then be an enemy of God?

God looks at the motive and intent of the heart. If we keep the law to be saved we can be an enemy of God. If we keep the Law to be religious we can be an enemy of God.

Just because I serve others, tithe or do anything else that looks Christian does not make me right with God and nor can you tell by these things that I am right with God. Why is that? Because being right with God is a heart issue in which motive and intents plays a big part and we can not know another man's heart.

All we can do by these things is have fellowship with one another but we can not truly say another is right with God unless we can know that person's heart.

[k4c]

No it is Jesus. Are you trying to tell me that Love was not as important in the Old covenant as it is in the New. Are you saying that God preferred law over love in the old covenant and switched it in the new covenant? If so then you are saying that God changed.

Exactly! The 10 commandments does not produce love but love produces the 10 commandments.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Thats why we are not saved by keeping the law. But God will surely forbid if someone continues in sin.

The law reveals our need of a Saviour from the sin that results. If we remain in our carnal nature we will remain under the condemnation of the law because the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and cannot keep it. The law is spiritual and a carnal man cannot keep it. Our only way out is by letting God take full control and be led by the spirit. Then we become spiritual and the spiritual law is upheld and therefore is not a law of sin and death but a law of life and peace.

But the spirit of God will not have us break the law. God's spirit will not lead us to sin.

If Grace does not cover you you will stand condemned. God's grace is what saves us from sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. Its simple. My bible says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and he is enmity against God. Wouldn't the spiritual mind be the opposite?

The law has no power over one's conviction. The law could have and can never cause someone to love. It is God's spirit that causes us to love. You seem to misunderstand the role of the law. No law, no sin. No sin, no Death. No Death, no Saviour.

Exactly because the old man cannot keep it and it therefore condemns that man as a sinner. But a man in the control of God's spirit will not sin, therefore her will not break the law. You seem to be missing an important point. The law does condemn, but it condemns because of the sin that occurs when you break it. Paul revealed that concept when he said that it was not the law that was actually the problem but the sin that comes from breaking the law.

Under the Old Covenant sin, not all sin, was made known by the law. Under the New Covenant sin is determined by the words of Christ, in other words, the law of Christ and the daily conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is the new and living way that is spoken of in the New Testament. It's a living relationship with God through Christ in the power of the Spirit. If you choose to live by the law you will have to live by the whole law. If we are in Christ we are no longer under the as our guild, but rather, we are under the direction of the Spirit and the words of Christ.

When you understand what these verses mean you will better grasp the New Covenant concept.

1 Corinthinas 9:19-21 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law.

[PROPHECYKID]

Under the Old Covenant sin, not all sin, was made known by the law. Under the New Covenant sin is determined by the words of Christ, in other words, the law of Christ and the daily conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is the new and living way that is spoken of in the New Testament. It's a living relationship with God through Christ in the power of the Spirit. If you choose to live by the law you will have to live by the whole law. If we are in Christ we are no longer under the as our guild, but rather, we are under the direction of the Spirit and the words of Christ.

When you understand what these verses mean you will better grasp the New Covenant concept.

1 Corinthinas 9:19-21 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law.
So what is right and wrong has changed since Jesus came to earth? So sin is based on a time period?

[k4c]

So what is right and wrong has changed since Jesus came to earth? So sin is based on a time period?

Sin changes as covenants change.

[PROPHECYKID]

Sin changes as covenants change.
So in the new covenant sin is no longer the transgression of the law? So John was speaking in old covenant terms?

[SoldierOfTheKing]

God looks at the motive and intent of the heart.

The Ten Commandments have to do with the intent of the heart. Most obviously, the Tenth Commandment does. Coveting is not an outward action, it is an action of the heart. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:21-32) explains how the Sixth and Seventh Commandments are also really matters of the heart.

Mark 10:17-27 is another example. Jesus tells the rich young man keep the commandments if he is to inherit eternal life, the commandments cites are listed under the Ten Commandments. The young man replies that he has always kept the commandments. Jesus' exhortation to him sell his possessions and give the money to the poor was a demonstration of his failure to keep the First Commandment, also a matter of the heart. His possessions were more important to him than God was. Which gets to the point that someone who truly worships the Lord and puts Him before everything else is not an enemy of God. Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees because they kept the law, but rather because they didn't. The replaced the commandments of God with human tradition (Matt 15:3)

[k4c]

The Ten Commandments have to do with the intent of the heart. Most obviously, the Tenth Commandment does. Coveting is not an outward action, it is an action of the heart. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:21-32) explains how the Sixth and Seventh Commandments are also really matters of the heart.

Mark 10:17-27 is another example. Jesus tells the rich young man keep the commandments if he is to inherit eternal life, the commandments cites are listed under the Ten Commandments. The young man replies that he has always kept the commandments. Jesus' exhortation to him sell his possessions and give the money to the poor was a demonstration of his failure to keep the First Commandment, also a matter of the heart. His possessions were more important to him than God was. Which gets to the point that someone who truly worships the Lord and puts Him before everything else is not an enemy of God. Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees because they kept the law, but rather because they didn't. The replaced the commandments of God with human tradition (Matt 15:3)

The Ten Commandments do not reveal the intents of the heart. The Pharisees were keepers of the law and yet Jesus said they were filled with dead men's bones because outwardly they looked good because they were keeping the law but the intent and motive of their heart was wrong.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

Even Paul himself understood how keeping the law means nothing if the intent and motive of the heart was wrong.

Philippians 3:9-3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

As far as Jesus telling the young man to keep the commandments to be saved, this is not what Jesus was doing. Jesus was testing the motive and intent of the young man's heart. The Spirit of the law is to love others. Like the Pharisees, the young man was keeping the law outwardly but he did not have a love for others, for if he loved others, he would be helping the poor with his many riches.

We also have to keep in mind that the law did not only contain the Ten Commandments. The law contained many things, it just so happened that Jesus only mentioned five out of the many. For example; showing partiality is also a transgression of the law and is listed with adulerty and murder yet we never speak of showing partiality when speaking of breaking the Ten Commandments. That's because we fail to understand that when Jesus speaks of the law He is not just referring to the Ten Commandments, but rather, the whole law.

James 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself,'' you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery,'' also said, "Do not murder.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

[PROPHECYKID]

So in the new covenant sin is no longer the transgression of the law? So John was speaking in old covenant terms?
Still waiting for an answer K4c.

[k4c]

Still waiting for an answer K4c.

I gave the answer but I think it was deleted. Sin is lawlessness.

[honorthesabbath]

MODS--THIS THREAD PROBABLY NEEDS TO BE CLOSED AS IT WAS STARTED BEFORE THE FSG'S WENT INTO EFFECT AND NOW WE HAVE NON-MEMBERS DEBATING.

I DON'T WANT TO REPORT ANYONE ELSE FOR THESE RULES VIOLATIONS, BUT THEY DO NEED TO CEASE AND DESIST NOW.

[reddogs]

Please familirize yourself with the updated FSG's before posting in the forum:

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[k4c]

What about Adventist who are struggling with some doctrines of the SDA and who are contemplating leaving the SDA. Is there a place to debate and work these things out as we take a closer look at Scripture?

[OntheDL]

What about Adventist who are struggling with some doctrines of the SDA and who are contemplating leaving the SDA. Is there a place to debate and work these things out as we take a closer look at Scripture?

Statement of Faith:

Members of this forum agree with the Official 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventist Church (http://christianforums.com/t2180221-official-seventh-day-adventist-fundamental-beliefs.html) and hold to the Adventist message.
(http://christianforums.com/t7128209-what-make-us-different.html)
For those who do not adhere to these beliefs may wish to visit Progressive/Moderate/Former Adventist (http://christianforums.com/f569-progressive-moderate-former-adventists.html) forum instead. Any links to other CF forums used to debate the OP of a thread are not permitted and will be deleted.



You can debate in the prog/moderate/former adventist forum. If you wish to hear our side of the story, you can post in General Theology forum or Denominational Specific Theology forum.