I once asked an SDA elder... [Archive]

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k4c

7th April 2008, 09:27 PM

An elder from my SDA church stated that EGW was the prophet for the New Testament church. My reply was that I thought the Bible called Jesus the Prophet for the church. His reply was that EGW is the prophet for the church.

What are your thoughts?

tnp2140

7th April 2008, 10:58 PM

RC_NewProtestants

7th April 2008, 11:23 PM

JonMiller

8th April 2008, 12:37 AM

I think that Ellen is a stumbling block for a lot of people in the SDA church.

JM

k4c

8th April 2008, 06:10 AM

It was the people in Israel who kept thinking that Jesus was only a prophet.

Mark 8:27-29
"Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ.""

That notion continued on through the gospels.

Forgive me if it's not your intention but it seems like you're forcing a comparison of Ellen White to Christ in order to discredit EGW.

During the Old Testament times there were men and woman who had the office of prophet. They were chosen by God to direct His people for the time alotted them. This is not so for the New Testament church. Now don't get me wrong, there are many within the church who prophecy but they do not hold the office of prophet as in the Old Testament times.

For the New Testament church there is one who holds the office or Prophet and His name is Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like Moses from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 "And the Lord said to me, `They have spoken well. `I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like Moses, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. `And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.

Luke 7:15-16 And the dead man sat up, and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother. And fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!"

These verses are speaking of Jesus as the Prophet for the New Testament church.

There are many within the church who prophecy but they should not be exalted to the office of prophet. As a matter of fact there can be many who prophecy right within the same congregation. To just pull one out of the congreagtion and exalt that one to the office of prophet is unbiblical and takes away from the one true Prophet, Jesus the Christ. To exalt a new person to the office of prophet takes away the full and complete authority of Jesus and His words as the Prophet of His church. For example, we have Jesus doing away with the unclean foods of the Old Covenant yet we obey Ellen White in her condemnation of thoes who eat unclean foods.

Romans 14:14-17 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 15:11 It is not what enters one's mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one."

Some people will say Jesus was referring to eating with unwashed hands but it doesn't matter if it was unwashed hands or unwashed dishes the fact still remains, nothing that enters in by the mouth makes a person unclean. He even goes on to tell us to not let anyone speak evil of the good that all food is now acceptable since Christ.

This is only scrathing the surface, there is so much more when it comes to listening to EGW over the true Prophet, Jesus Christ.

djconklin

8th April 2008, 09:51 AM

An elder from my SDA church stated that EGW was the prophet for the New Testament church.

That response, in and of itself, is sufficient evidence to prove that he doesn't know what EGW wrote.
====
I think that Ellen is a stumbling block for a lot of people in the SDA church

More accurately it is their perception that is the stumbling block.
===
all food is now acceptable since Christ.

He wasn't talking ab't the foods themselves. He was talking ab't the ritualistic washing beforehand.

k4c

8th April 2008, 10:01 AM

He wasn't talking ab't the foods themselves. He was talking ab't the ritualistic washing beforehand.

He may have been using the washings in some areas to make His point but this does not mean He was only referring to washings. He clarifies this by saying, "The kingdom of God is NOT in food or drink"

djconklin

8th April 2008, 10:32 AM

"The kingdom of God is NOT in food or drink"

Text please; and which translation are you using? No such text in the KJV as far as I can tell.

k4c

8th April 2008, 11:27 AM

Text please; and which translation are you using? No such text in the KJV as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure if you're reading my posts but if you did you would have read the Scripture verses I posted. Here it is again.

Romans 14:14-17 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

k4c

8th April 2008, 12:59 PM

During the Old Testament times there were men and woman who had the office of prophet. They were chosen by God to direct His people for the time alotted them. This is not so for the New Testament church. Now don't get me wrong, there are many within the church who prophecy but they do not hold the office of prophet as in the Old Testament times.

For the New Testament church there is one who holds the office or Prophet and His name is Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like Moses from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 "And the Lord said to me, `They have spoken well. `I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like Moses, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. `And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.

Luke 7:15-16 And the dead man sat up, and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother. And fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!"

These verses are speaking of Jesus as the Prophet for the New Testament church.

There are many within the church who prophecy but they should not be exalted to the office of prophet. As a matter of fact there can be many who prophecy right within the same congregation. To just pull one out of the congreagtion and exalt that one to the office of prophet is unbiblical and takes away from the one true Prophet, Jesus the Christ. To exalt a new person to the office of prophet takes away the full and complete authority of Jesus and His words as the Prophet of His church. For example, we have Jesus doing away with the unclean foods of the Old Covenant yet we obey Ellen White in her condemnation of thoes who eat unclean foods.

Romans 14:14-17 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 15:11 It is not what enters one's mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one."

Some people will say Jesus was referring to eating with unwashed hands but it doesn't matter if it was unwashed hands or unwashed dishes the fact still remains, nothing that enters in by the mouth makes a person unclean. He even goes on to tell us to not let anyone speak evil of the good that all food is now acceptable since Christ.

This is only scrathing the surface, there is so much more when it comes to listening to EGW over the true Prophet, Jesus Christ.
bump

honorthesabbath

8th April 2008, 01:17 PM

k4c

8th April 2008, 01:34 PM

K4C-explain this text for me please.

Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

The KJV adds the word, prophet, which may be throwing you off. The original language does not use the word.

Luke 7:28 "I say to you, among those born of women, there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

honorthesabbath

8th April 2008, 03:49 PM

Sophia7

8th April 2008, 04:53 PM

The KJV adds the word, prophet, which may be throwing you off. The original language does not use the word.

Luke 7:28 "I say to you, among those born of women, there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

I disagree. I have a 1611 KJV and any 'added' words are in italics and prophet in that text is NOT italicized. Not sure where you got you info from.

But in any case, even if the word prophet were left out, then Jesus said that John was even greater than Himself. :scratch:

The difference is in the underlying manuscripts that were used for translation. That's why the KJV includes the word prophet in that verse while some of the newer translations don't. It wasn't added by the translators, but it was either added or taken out at some time in the copying of the biblical manuscripts. However, regardless of which manuscripts you think are more accurate and thus which Bible versions you prefer, Jesus did call John a prophet (and "more than a prophet") a couple of verses earlier.

PROPHECYKID

10th April 2008, 11:27 AM

For example, we have Jesus doing away with the unclean foods of the Old Covenant yet we obey Ellen White in her condemnation of thoes who eat unclean foods.

Romans 14:14-17 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 15:11 It is not what enters one's mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one."

Some people will say Jesus was referring to eating with unwashed hands but it doesn't matter if it was unwashed hands or unwashed dishes the fact still remains, nothing that enters in by the mouth makes a person unclean. He even goes on to tell us to not let anyone speak evil of the good that all food is now acceptable since Christ.

Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

This is the issue. The thing that started the discussion was whether eating bread with unwashen hand would defile a man.

Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Jesus was emphasizing where the source of sin really comes from. It comes from the heart. The pharisees had a ridiculous belief that if you eat food without washing your hands the food would be defiled and thus defile you. Thus in this context a food being unclean meant that it was eaten with unwashen hands. But Jesus was saying that in that context food can never be unclean since all sins proceed from the heart. The actual act of the sin is a result of the sin proceeding from the heart. Jesus explained it perfectly.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Every wrong thing that we do must proceed from our heart or else we cannot be held accountable. That is why in moments of ignorance God winks. If you have never known stealing to be wrong and you steal God cannot hold you responsible because that sin never proceeded from your heart. In Marks account he said that this fact makes all meats clean.

Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Or making all meats clean. Was Jesus saying that all foods are good to eat? No he was not. Look at the facts. The Jews never ate any meant that was unclean thus Jesus was declaring all foods that were eaten clean. Why were some of them seen as unclean? They never ate anything unclean by nature but they did eat bread with unwashen hands and thus the food was seen as unclean for that reason. The uncleanliness of the food in the context of the passage depends on whether it was handled with unwashen hands or not. In that context Jesus said that all food are clean from that uncleanliness because all sins proceed from the heart. Germs which spread to the food through your unwashen hands cannot defile you.

Remember Jesus' conclusion.

Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Had Jesus been saying that all meats are now clean then Peter would have no problem when the sheet came down in the vision he saw. One of the best ways to understand Jesus' wors are to look at what the disciples did after receiving them. If Jesus meant that all meats are now clean to eat Peter would have had a feast in the vision. I shall focus on that vision in my next post.

djconklin

10th April 2008, 11:34 AM

I disagree. I have a 1611 KJV and any 'added' words are in italics and prophet in that text is NOT italicized. Not sure where you got you info from.

Apparently the KJV doesn't always put the added words in italics (or they used differing mss) . I looked it up in the Nestle-Aland and the Greek word fro "prophet" doesn't show up in the text--it is in some mss.

TrustAndObey

10th April 2008, 07:14 PM

http://img2.putfile.com/main/4/10020130743.jpg

djconklin

10th April 2008, 10:23 PM

Which Greek is that from? I also checked the UBS and it didn't have it either.

TrustAndObey

10th April 2008, 10:24 PM

It's from the Greek Greek.

LOL!

What do you mean DJ?

I use www.blueletterbible.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org)

Hope that helps!

k4c

11th April 2008, 09:14 AM

I disagree. I have a 1611 KJV and any 'added' words are in italics and prophet in that text is NOT italicized. Not sure where you got you info from.

But in any case, even if the word prophet were left out, then Jesus said that John was even greater than Himself. :scratch:

John the Baptist had his ministry up unti Jesus. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of of the Father on High. There is no need for the office of prophet as was in the Old Testament times. John the Baptist understood this. Listen to his words has he begins to grasp the work of Christ.

John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.

So here we have a man, who Jesus called great, for the time alotted him but now we have the risen Savior and the Spirit to direct. Why do we need to have another prophet? Is the Spirit unable to teach and guide? I think not... Are we to now listen to EGW and all her errors and borrowing? Are we still under the old, which includes Sabbath law inwhich Willim Miller himself was against.

I think we need to obey God when He tells us to listen to His Son.

k4c

11th April 2008, 09:19 AM

Had Jesus been saying that all meats are now clean then Peter would have no problem when the sheet came down in the vision he saw. One of the best ways to understand Jesus' wors are to look at what the disciples did after receiving them. If Jesus meant that all meats are now clean to eat Peter would have had a feast in the vision. I shall focus on that vision in my next post.

Peter refused to eat unclean, as well as, common meats. Peter struggled with the freedom we have in Christ. Peter refused to eat with Gentiles and was rebuked for it by Paul. God was teaching Peter a lesson in the vision and the lesson was that when God calls something clean ie; all meats, they are clean. In like manner, when God calls Gentile believers clean, they are clean.

TrustAndObey

11th April 2008, 09:23 AM

k4c

11th April 2008, 09:53 AM

k4c, this forum is undergoing some changes, but for the time being, we are not allowing any debate until we have the guidelines of debate hammered out.

Please respect our wishes of no debate until we have rules set up.

Many thanks!

This is where they moved my debate so debate on. Unless of course you can't debate what I have posted.

TrustAndObey

11th April 2008, 11:47 AM

k4c, I guess I didn't make myself clear.

The entire Traditional Adventist forum here is NON-DEBATE until we have the rules posted for our guidelines of debate.

So there will be no "debate on" until that is done. Please respect the members of this forum and do not try to debate or insinuate that your question is too hard for us to answer.

We have put a stop to ALL debate in all sections of our forum for a few days.

Is that clearer?