Why is the SDA so deceptive?

[k4c]

I have always found it very interesting how the SDA work under different names when promoting their doctrines in evangelism.

I also find it interesting how they say EGW and her writings are not equal to the Scriptures until you become a member and begin studying with them.

Why do they accept EGW yet they don't accept Joseph Smith? Both are just as qualified using the SDA criteria for prophet qualifying.


What are your thoughts?

[tnp2140]

Read the Great Controversy, Steps to Christ and Desire of Ages and you will know why we respect her writings.

We don't promote other names. Some people chose to work under a specific group or ministry such as Amazing Facts but they never hide the denomination they belong to.

[mva1985]

I have always found it very interesting how the SDA work under different names when promoting their doctrines in evangelism.

I also find it interesting how they say EGW and her writings are not equal to the Scriptures until you become a member and begin studying with them.

Why do they accept EGW yet they don't accept Joseph Smith? Both are just as qualified using the SDA criteria for prophet qualifying.


What are your thoughts?
I don't try and deceive anyone as far as the church that I belong to.

The SDA criteria for a prophet is the Bible - so the question is does EGW meet that and does Joseph Smith meet that? That remains for you to decide.

I personally have studied with about a dozen Mormon elders/missionaries and there is no way to reconcile what they believe with the Bible.

[honorthesabbath]

I have always found it very interesting how the SDA work under different names when promoting their doctrines in evangelism.

The evangelistic seminars are held under different names because they are NOT sponsored or supported by the General Conferences of the SDA church. They are private ministries who choose their own names.

It would be the same if YOU were to feel lead by the Holy Spirit to preach Jesus to the world and do your own seminar's.

If you are insinuating "DECEPTION' as you plainly are--then consider how very deceptive the term 'non-denominational' is for heavens sake!

I also find it interesting how they say EGW and her writings are not equal to the Scriptures until you become a member and begin studying with them.

This has not been my experience and I have been SDA for 30 yrs.

Why do they accept EGW yet they don't accept Joseph Smith? Both are just as qualified using the SDA criteria for prophet qualifying.

NADA! JS does NOT meet the criteria---Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


What are your thoughts?

Them are me tharts brooda!

[freeindeed2]

If you are insinuating "DECEPTION' as you plainly are--then consider how very deceptive the term 'non-denominational' is for heavens sake!
What is deceptive about 'non-denominational' churches?

In CHRIST alone...

[k4c]

NADA! JS does NOT meet the criteria---Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


You can fall into a lot of wrong beliefs by pulling an Old Testament command such as the one you use above to justify following Ellen White.

Do you mix threads? Do you plant different seeds in the same garden? These are just a few of the rules that governed those under the law of the Old Covenant.

There is a big difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant for those who are in Christ.

The New Covenant is now founded on the words of Christ. It's the words of Christ that will judge us in the end, not anything from the Old Covenant nor anything from Ellen White for Jesus is the Prophet of the New Covenant as Moses was the prophet of the Old Covenant.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

[Byfaithalone1]

We don't promote other names.

This isn’t true. SDA groups have promoted books written by Ellen G. White by a number of different names such as Cosmic Conflict, Happiness Digest, etc. Also books written by Mrs. White are marketed under a number of clever surnames such as E.G. White, E. White and E. Gould White. You cannot tell me that such are efforts are undertaken in the interest of full transparency.

Some people chose to work under a specific group or ministry such as Amazing Facts but they never hide the denomination they belong to.

Again, this isn’t true. There have been dozens of seminars hosted in hotels, away from church property, in which absolutely no information whatsoever is given regarding denominational affiliation.

I think the question set out in the OP is quite relevant. What does SDAism have to hide?

BFA

[honorthesabbath]

You can fall into a lot of wrong beliefs by pulling an Old Testament command such as the one you use above to justify following Ellen White.

Do you mix threads? Do you plant different seeds in the same garden? These are just a few of the rules that governed those under the law of the Old Covenant.

There is a big difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant for those who are in Christ.

The New Covenant is now founded on the words of Christ. It's the words of Christ that will judge us in the end, not anything from the Old Covenant nor anything from Ellen White for Jesus is the Prophet of the New Covenant as Moses was the prophet of the Old Covenant.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

I would like for you to explain in detail both covenants for me please. Thank you.

[freeindeed2]

Again, this isn’t true. There have been dozens of seminars hosted in hotels, away from church property, in which absolutely no information whatsoever is given regarding denominational affiliation.

I think the question set out in the OP is quite relevant. What does SDAism have to hide?

BFA
I just received a mailer last week advertising a prophecy seminar in our city meeting at a hotel with NO indication that SDA's are putting it on. This is the normal practice.

In CHRIST alone...

[Byfaithalone1]

The evangelistic seminars are held under different names because they are NOT sponsored or supported by the General Conferences of the SDA church.

There are dozens and dozens of examples of seminars supported and sponsored by local SDA congregations. Many of these are held in hotels, away from church property and no information whatsoever is given to the attendees regarding denominational affiliation (at least not initially).

They are private ministries who choose their own names.

Most SDA seminars are sponsored by a local SDA congregation. Very few seminars are presented without the sponsorship of a local SDA congregation!

If you are insinuating "DECEPTION' as you plainly are--then consider how very deceptive the term 'non-denominational' is for heavens sake!

There is nothing deceptive about the term “non-denominational.” Non-denoms are churches that are not closely affiliated with any denomination. Every non-denom in my area has a website on which the non-denom publicly posts its statement of beliefs. There is full transparency—nothing is concealed.

This has not been my experience and I have been SDA for 30 yrs.

I was an SDA for more than 30 years and found the statement to be quite true for many (but not all) SDAs.

NADA! JS does NOT meet the criteria---Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Thanks for establishing this as the criteria. Note how Ellen G. White also fails this test in that she promotes the following “truths”:


The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life
Jesus does not change the character at His coming
What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity
Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified
When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, then the sins of the repentant soul who received the grace of Christ and has overcome through the blood of the Lamb, will be removed from the records of heaven, and will be placed upon Satan
Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.
It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement
No man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins
The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin
BFA

[honorthesabbath]

This isn’t true. SDA groups have promoted books written by Ellen G. White by a number of different names such as Cosmic Conflict, Happiness Digest, etc. Also books written by Mrs. White are marketed under a number of clever surnames such as E.G. White, E. White and E. Gould White. You cannot tell me that such are efforts are undertaken in the interest of full transparency.


What is this I see? Hmm can barely make it out. Oh wait, yes I can, it's HAIR SPLITTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Signed, honorthesabbath, honor, HTS


Again, this isn’t true. There have been dozens of seminars hosted in hotels, away from church property, in which absolutely no information whatsoever is given regarding denominational affiliation.

Most churches sponsoring the seminars do not have the space. Secondly, what difference does denomination make? Jesus and end time issues are being presented and thats ALL that matters.

Does Billy Graham announce his affiliation at his rallies? What about Crouch or Olsen?

I think the question set out in the OP is quite relevant. What does SDAism have to hide? BFA

No one is hiding anything, it's only your perception.

[k4c]

I would like for you to explain in detail both covenants for me please. Thank you.

The Old Covenant contained everything within the Old Testament but the heart of the Old Covenant was seen at mount Sinai, which was given to and spoken by Moses.

The New Covenant contains everything that was given to and spoken by Christ but the heart of the New Covenant is seen not at mount Sinai, but rather, at the sermon on the mount. Two different mountains and two different times.

So in the nut shell, everything spoken by Jesus is the foundation of the New Covenant. The sign of the New Covenant is no longer the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, the Lord's supper.

[honorthesabbath]

I just received a mailer last week advertising a prophecy seminar in our city meeting at a hotel with NO indication that SDA's are putting it on. This is the normal practice.

In CHRIST alone...

So what? Why does it matter? isn't it the MESSAGE that is important?

I get these big post cards in the mail ALL the time from a church here in our area. Oh they say, come and CELEBRATE (they never say who), come AS YOU ARE (yeah, mini shorts and halter tops are accepted),
they go on and on about how great their 'church' is. But they NEVER mention the name of Jesus or their affliliation.

So I called one day to ask them why they do not include the name of Jesus or their denominational name. Hold unto your seat---she told me that neither is mentioned because 'some people are OFFENDED by Jesus or 'churchy titles"!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the famous words of Jeff Foxworthy--ARE YOU SMARTER THAN A FIFTH GRADER"?? Are you kidding me? A church that is afraid to OFFEND by advertising JESUS?????

I'm proud of our SDA fliers because JESUS is ALL over them and so is the message that we are moving into dangerous times. We can CELEBRATE later!

[k4c]

So what? Why does it matter? isn't it the MESSAGE that is important?

I get these big post cards in the mail ALL the time from a church here in our area. Oh they say, come and CELEBRATE (they never say who), come AS YOU ARE (yeah, mini shorts and halter tops are accepted),
they go on and on about how great their 'church' is. But they NEVER mention the name of Jesus or their affliliation.

So I called one day to ask them why they do not include the name of Jesus or their denominational name. Hold unto your seat---she told me that neither is mentioned because 'some people are OFFENDED by Jesus or 'churchy titles"!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the famous words of Jeff Foxworthy--ARE YOU SMARTER THAN A FIFTH GRADER"?? Are you kidding me? A church that is afraid to OFFEND by advertising JESUS?????

I'm proud of our SDA fliers because JESUS is ALL over them and so is the message that we are moving into dangerous times. We can CELEBRATE later!

This does not exonerate the SDA denomination who claims to be the one true church and who baptizes people into the SDA denomination and not into Christ.

[djconklin]

I have always found it very interesting how the SDA work under different names when promoting their doctrines in evangelism.

There is no requirement that independent ministries state who they are. Some will claim that it is the local church who "sponsors" the evangelism--in fact, the donation to the series is usually quite small compared to the overall expense.

[djconklin]

This does not exonerate the SDA denomination who claims to be the one true church and who baptizes people into the SDA denomination and not into Christ.

Actually, the pastors will preach how there will be more Methodists, or Baptists, or Luthrens, or catholics in heaven than SDA (and not just because of sheer numbers) because they are living up to the light they know.

Secondly and far more accuaretly one is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Any claim that one is baptized as an Adventist is a bald-faced lie. The same thing happens when one is baptized as a Baptist, you are baptised into Chroist and then one is accepted into membership of the church that baptized you--the same thing happened in the NT church--one wasn't baptized in Corinth and accepted into the church at say, Smyrna.

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by freeindeed2 http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45718683#post45718683)
I just received a mailer last week advertising a prophecy seminar in our city meeting at a hotel with NO indication that SDA's are putting it on. This is the normal practice.



Name the city please.

[djconklin]

So in the nut shell, everything spoken by Jesus is the foundation of the New Covenant. The sign of the New Covenant is no longer the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, the Lord's supper.

Jesus was also the foundation of the OC--the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. The Bible defines the NC as the law of God written on the heart. The law includes the Sabbath commandment which points to God as our Creator.

[k4c]

[/size][/font]

Actually, the pastors will preach how there will be more Methodists, or Baptists, or Luthrens, or catholics in heaven than SDA (and not just because of sheer numbers) because they are living up to the light they know.

Secondly and far more accuaretly one is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Any claim that one is baptized as an Adventist is a bald-faced lie. The same thing happens when one is baptized as a Baptist, you are baptised into Chroist and then one is accepted into membership of the church that baptized you--the same thing happened in the NT church--one wasn't baptized in Corinth and accepted into the church at say, Smyrna.

There is only one who decides who will be in the kingdom. But just to respond to your post I will say that those who reject the doctrines of the SDA denomination will not be in the kingdom. This makes them the one true church in their mind. Also, belief in Ellen White is one of their foundational doctrines.

[djconklin]

But just to respond to your post

That would be the polite thing to do.

I will say that those who reject the doctrines of the SDA denomination will not be in the kingdom.

If the SDA church is teachiung the Bible then those who reject the church are rejecting the Bible. Those who reject the Bible will be lost.

This makes them the one true church in their mind.

In our mind one is not saved solely by being a member of the church. That was precisely the point of my post.

Also, belief in Ellen White is one of their foundational doctrines.

Nope.

[Byfaithalone1]

Also, belief in Ellen White is one of their foundational doctrines.

Indeed it is! It is fundamental doctrine #18!

What is this I see? Hmm can barely make it out. Oh wait, yes I can, it's HAIR SPLITTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The claim was made that SDAs don’t change names to alter transparency. We can now see that this claim is blatantly false. SDA groups do, in fact, change names in order to alter transparency.

Most churches sponsoring the seminars do not have the space.

Another false claim. In the vast majority of circumstances where a seminar is held in a hotel, the seminar is eventually moved to the local SDA church (after it is finally revealed that the group sponsoring the seminar is a local SDA church). Further, any of us who have ever attended a local SDA seminar are fully aware of the type of attendance that is expected. Space is not an issue.

Secondly what difference does denomination make? Jesus and end time issues are being presented and thats ALL that matters.

If it makes no difference, then why not reveal the affiliation with SDAism. What is to be gained from concealing this fact?

Does Billy Graham announce his affiliation at his rallies? What about Olsen?

Their affiliation is VERY WELL KNOWN by all.

No one is hiding anything, it's only your perception.

It is a perception that many have and it’s supported by fact.

So what? Why does it matter? isn't it the MESSAGE that is important?

How many would attend if they knew the seminar was sponsored by a local SDA church? Isn’t transparency also important?

I'm proud of our SDA fliers because JESUS is ALL over them and so is the message that we are moving into dangerous times. We can CELEBRATE later!

I saw one about a year ago that had a picture of Jesus and Satan in conflict. Both were represented as being exactly the same size. They appeared to be peers. I have news for you. They aren’t peers!

BFA

[djconklin]

Also, belief in Ellen White is one of their foundational doctrines.


Indeed it is! It is fundamental doctrine #18!


Read it more slowly and carefully.

[Byfaithalone1]

Also, belief in Ellen White is one of their foundational doctrines.
Indeed it is! It is fundamental doctrine #18!

What is this I see? Hmm can barely make it out. Oh wait, yes I can, it's HAIR SPLITTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The claim was made that SDAs don’t change names to alter transparency. We can now see that this claim is blatantly false. SDA groups do, in fact, change names in order to alter transparency.

Most churches sponsoring the seminars do not have the space.

Another false claim. In the vast majority of circumstances where a seminar is held in a hotel, the seminar is eventually moved to the local SDA church (after it is finally revealed that the group sponsoring the seminar is a local SDA church). Further, any of us who have ever attended a local SDA seminar are fully aware of the type of attendance that is expected. Space is not an issue.

Secondly what difference does denomination make? Jesus and end time issues are being presented and thats ALL that matters.

If it makes no difference, then why not reveal the affiliation with SDAism. What is to be gained from concealing this fact?

Does Billy Graham announce his affiliation at his rallies? What about Olsen?

Their affiliation is VERY WELL KNOWN by all.

No one is hiding anything, it's only your perception.

It is a perception that many have and it’s supported by fact.

So what? Why does it matter? isn't it the MESSAGE that is important?

How many would attend if they knew the seminar was sponsored by a local SDA church? Isn’t transparency also important?

I'm proud of our SDA fliers because JESUS is ALL over them and so is the message that we are moving into dangerous times. We can CELEBRATE later!

I saw one about a year ago that had a picture of Jesus and Satan in conflict. Both were represented as being exactly the same size. They appeared to be peers. I have news for you. They aren’t peers!

BFA

[freeindeed2]

So what? Why does it matter? isn't it the MESSAGE that is important?
YES! It is the MESSAGE that is important. And identifying WHO is giving the message says a lot about WHAT the message is. If it's the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, the one taught by the Apostles, then I could support it.

I get these big post cards in the mail ALL the time from a church here in our area. Oh they say, come and CELEBRATE (they never say who), come AS YOU ARE (yeah, mini shorts and halter tops are accepted), they go on and on about how great their 'church' is. But they NEVER mention the name of Jesus or their affliliation.
We should be celebrating! We are working from victory in Jesus Christ! And Jesus does accept us just as we are.

But if they're not lifting up Christ alone and not identifying themselves, then they're being just as deceptive.

So I called one day to ask them why they do not include the name of Jesus or their denominational name. Hold unto your seat---she told me that neither is mentioned because 'some people are OFFENDED by Jesus or 'churchy titles"!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the famous words of Jeff Foxworthy--ARE YOU SMARTER THAN A FIFTH GRADER"?? Are you kidding me? A church that is afraid to OFFEND by advertising JESUS?????
Jesus is offensive and it's disappointing to hear of a 'church' that doesn't have Him at their center, at least in their advertising.

I'm proud of our SDA fliers because JESUS is ALL over them and so is the message that we are moving into dangerous times. We can CELEBRATE later!
We can celebrate now! Victory is won already in Christ. Jesus IS the message.

If your church is up-front about who they are in their advertising, that's great. That is not the norm for SDA churches.

In CHRIST alone...

[honorthesabbath]

[/color][/b]
What is deceptive about 'non-denominational' churches?

In CHRIST alone...

Because every single 'non-denominational' church I have investigated is an off shoot of the baptists. Still teaching the same baptist theology. There is not a dimes worth of difference between the two. This I find deceptive.

[freeindeed2]

Because every single 'non-denominational' church I have investigated is an off shoot of the baptists. Still teaching the same baptist theology. There is not a dimes worth of difference between the two. This I find deceptive.
Some non-denoms certainly began with a group of people that left a specific denomination which by default gives them certain tendencies in how they 'do' church. But by no means is that characteristic of all non-denominational churches. Most of them don't fit your brush, and most of them will tell you the history of how they got started too showing that they're not hiding anything. That's not deception and I would challenge you to directly ask the lead teacher/preacher your questions and allow them the opportunity to answer before labeling them as 'deceptive'.

In CHRIST alone...

[Sophia7]

Because every single 'non-denominational' church I have investigated is an off shoot of the baptists. Still teaching the same baptist theology. There is not a dimes worth of difference between the two. This I find deceptive.


You must not have investigated very many then. Not all non-denominational churches are the same. They vary widely in the non-essentials because part of being non-denominational is that they don't have a centralized system of authority outside of the local congregation that dictates the beliefs of each local church.

Here (http://christianforums.com/t6972792-fsgs-forum-specific-guidelines-for-the-non-denominational-forum.html) again is the definition that the Non-denominational forum at CF uses:For the purposes of this forum, Non-Denominational will be defined as a Christian who is not part of a denominational church.

A denominational church is a church that submits to a central authority on matters of doctrine, ordination, and/or discipline and/or aligns itself with recognized body of churches under shared doctrine, ordination, and/or discipline. Churches such as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, Assemblies of God, Baptist Conferences, and others who may not use the label of "denomination" yet fit the definition above are considered denominational for the purpose of this forum.

A non-denominational church is a church that may submit to an association for purposes such as resource sharing (such as the Willowcreek Association), but that association does not rule the decisions of the individual congregations and spans denominational lines.
That covers much more than just Baptist offshoots. The church that we are currently attending is non-denominational but not at all Baptist. In fact, at this point I wouldn't join a church that included certain elements of Baptist theology in its belief statements because I couldn't agree with them.

[honorthesabbath]

Free and Sohpia, the deception that I see as far as non-denom's is that they are attempting to get rid of of labels, but they keep the doctrines. Sort of like a married person slipping off the wedding band upon entering a bar.

For the most part they still teach..

1. the immorality of a soul
2. sunday sacredness
3. disobedience to God's commandments
4. OSAS
5. futurism
6. ever-lasting punishing

I'll wager that 8 out of 10 non-denom's hold to everyone of the above. And everyone one of those doctrines are taught in the baptist churches. So YOU tell me the differences.

[Sophia7]

Free and Sohpia, the deception that I see as far as non-denom's is that they are attempting to get rid of of labels, but they keep the doctrines. Sort of like a married person slipping off the wedding band upon entering a bar.

For the most part they still teach..

1. the immorality of a soul
2. sunday sacredness
3. disobedience to God's commandments
4. OSAS
5. futurism
6. ever-lasting punishing

I'll wager that 8 out of 10 non-denom's hold to everyone of the above. And everyone one of those doctrines are taught in the baptist churches. So YOU tell me the differences.

Nope, none of those are in my current church's statement of beliefs. I wouldn't go there if they were.

[freeindeed2]

Nope, none of those are in my current church's statement of beliefs. I wouldn't go there if they were.
I haven't seen those in any of the non-denom's statements of belief I've attended. I've only been to a couple dozen non-denoms though in 4 or 5 states. The first thing I do when visiting any church is read what their belief statements are, even if I'm there for a seminar or program.

In CHRIST alone...

[honorthesabbath]

Then inform us Free and Sophia what exactly those churches teach that you attend.

And Free--please don't say "Christ alone' because I KNOW that is not true.

[Sophia7]

I haven't seen those in any of the non-denom's statements of belief I've attended. I've only been to a couple dozen non-denoms though in 4 or 5 states. The first thing I do when visiting any church is read what their belief statements are, even if I'm there for a seminar or program.

In CHRIST alone...

And they usually have their belief statements readily available, on paper and/or online. They are not trying to hide what they believe.

[TrustAndObey]

If we're going to debate here, it would be nice if you'd all disclose your particular non-denom's doctrine.

It's only fair.

[freeindeed2]

Then inform us Free and Sophia what exactly those churches teach that you attend.

And Free--please don't say "Christ alone' because I KNOW that is not true.
Honor, here is what I find most of the time:

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God and inerrant in the original writings.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless blood, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father and His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that the lost and sinful man must be saved, and that man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved, they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are unsaved unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Obviously the things you brought up are not a part of their belief statements.

In CHRIST alone...

[freeindeed2]

And they usually have their belief statements readily available, on paper and/or online. They are not trying to hide what they believe.
Absolutely! Most of the time they are included in their welcome pack that they give to visitors.

[TrustAndObey]

Could you type up your statements of faith from your welcome packs for us?

I'm not trying to be pushy but I know some non-denom's meet on Sabbath, some meet on Sunday, etc.

It would just help if we knew what your individual non-denom's teach.

[TrustAndObey]

Honor, here is what I find most of the time:

We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God and inerrant in the original writings.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless blood, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father and His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that the lost and sinful man must be saved, and that man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved, they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are unsaved unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.Obviously the things you brought up are not a part of their belief statements.

In CHRIST alone...

What exactly does living a Godly life consist of? Who defines what Godly is?

Oh so many questions could stem from those 7 little statements.

[TrustAndObey]

That statement doesn't mention what happens between death and the resurrections <just another little observation>

[TrustAndObey]

Why "is" the SDA so deceptive weren't good English.

#4 Saved from "what" exactly? What happens when you're saved?

#6 Resurrection of life? How long is this new life?

I'm not seeing the good news of that Gospel!!

[Sophia7]

Then inform us Free and Sophia what exactly those churches teach that you attend.

And Free--please don't say "Christ alone' because I KNOW that is not true.

If we're going to debate here, it would be nice if you'd all disclose your particular non-denom's doctrine.

It's only fair.

Sure, here is the statement from my current church:We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

We believe that God is the Creator of the universe and everything in it

We believe in Jesus Christ, God's one and only Son, our one and only Savior
Conceived by the Holy Spirit
Born of a virgin
Fully human and fully divine
Died on the cross, was buried, and rose again bodily from the grave
Ascended into heaven and is seated at the Father's right hand
Will return to judge both the living and the deadWe believe in the Holy Spirit
The third person in the Trinity
Who indwells every Christian
Who empowers Christians for works of service
Who enables us to live Christlike livesWe believe in the Bible, that it is the divinely inspired Word of God, given to us so that we may know and understand the truth of God and His love

We believe that man willfully sinned and as a result is lost and without hope apart from Jesus Christ

We believe that salvation is by grace alone through the blood of Jesus Christ

We believe that the church is the body of Christ, consisting of all Christians everywhere

[Sophia7]

Honor, here is what I find most of the time:
We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God and inerrant in the original writings.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless blood, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father and His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that the lost and sinful man must be saved, and that man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved, they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are unsaved unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.Obviously the things you brought up are not a part of their belief statements.

In CHRIST alone...

Quite similar to the statement that I posted, but I disagree with the part about inerrancy in the original manuscripts. I think that if God had dictated the exact words of the whole Bible (changing styles according to the personalities of the human agents, as some say) and wanted it to be completely free of human error, He would have preserved it that way. As it is, it's clear that human error has crept in at some point--either during the original writings or during the copying of the biblical manuscripts (or both). And we don't have the autographs anyway, so it's impossible to prove that they were inerrant. I believe that God has preserved the essential truths of Scripture, despite any errors or textual variants in either the autographs or the copied manuscripts.

This is something that played a role for me in deciding which church to attend because I don't think that Christians should be too dogmatic about it and condemn those who disagree with them (and some Evangelicals do that).

[honorthesabbath]

Honor, here is what I find most of the time:
We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God and inerrant in the original writings.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless blood, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father and His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that the lost and sinful man must be saved, and that man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a Godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved, they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are unsaved unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.Obviously the things you brought up are not a part of their belief statements.

In CHRIST alone...

Then you must be attending an SDA church--for this is our beliefs too.

[freeindeed2]

Could you type up your statements of faith from your welcome packs for us?

I'm not trying to be pushy but I know some non-denom's meet on Sabbath, some meet on Sunday, etc.

It would just help if we knew what your individual non-denom's teach.
There are many non-denom's that meet every day. For instance, I know of one that meets Wednesday nights, Thursday nights, Friday nights, Saturday evenings, 3 times on Sunday, and a youth group that meets Sunday evening.

In CHRIST alone...

[honorthesabbath]

Well again, Free and Sophia, what you have posted as to the statements of faith are pretty fundamental to ALL Christian churches, INCLUDING SDA's.

But lets get down to the particulars. EVERY ONE of the ND churches that I have checked into ALL hold to the beliefs I posted earlier. (Relisted below) These--you have NOT addressed and I am asking you to right now.
Can you be honest now and stop side stepping my questions?

1. the immorality of a soul
2. sunday sacredness
3. disobedience to God's commandments
4. OSAS
5. futurism
6. ever-lasting punishing

Also, how can we look up your church when we have no idea it's name. As T&O said, if we are going to debate the deception of the ND churches, we should at least know which one you all attend since their teachings are so secretive.

[freeindeed2]

Then you must be attending an SDA church--for this is our beliefs too.
Oh, if it were only that simple. Last I checked you embrace 28 SDA fundamentals/pillars that cannot be moved/changed, regardless of how much Scripture is amassed. And #18 stands directly against the first statement in my post.

In CHRIST alone...

[TrustAndObey]

There are many non-denom's that meet every day. For instance, I know of one that meets Wednesday nights, Thursday nights, Friday nights, Saturday evenings, 3 times on Sunday, and a youth group that meets Sunday evening.

In CHRIST alone...

There's a full blown sermon at each of those times?

[freeindeed2]

There's a full blown sermon at each of those times?
Absolutely! Pure, true, unadulterated, Gospel of Jesus Christ messages.

[TrustAndObey]

I don't see the unadulterated good news of eternal life in that Gospel....not the one you posted anyway.

It talks about the resurrections, but not how LONG "life" is afterwards.

Come on...that's the best part of the Gospel...eternal life with our Savior!

[TrustAndObey]

What, according to that doctrine, are we saved "from" exactly?

[TrustAndObey]

Not one word about the enemy in there.

If you guys don't dig a little deeper, that's disturbing (I'm being serious).

[Eila]

Well again, Free and Sophia, what you have posted as to the statements of faith are pretty fundamental to ALL Christian churches, INCLUDING SDA's.

But lets get down to the particulars. EVERY ONE of the ND churches that I have checked into ALL hold to the beliefs I posted earlier. (Relisted below) These--you have NOT addressed and I am asking you to right now.
Can you be honest now and stop side stepping my questions?

1. the immorality of a soul
2. sunday sacredness
3. disobedience to God's commandments
4. OSAS
5. futurism
6. ever-lasting punishing



I don't think you will find all those things in most belief statements. Non-denominational churches are in general inclusive rather than exclusive and allow for liberty regarding some issues.

Churches I typically attend would hold to 1 and 6 as normal beliefs among attendees. I haven't visited any non-denomination churches that hold to Sunday sacredness. I have visited some that focus on the 10 commandments though. Also, OSAS is not common in the churches I have attended. Futurism is probably the most prevalent belief in churches I have attended, but it is by no means emphasized or insisted upon.

Hope that helps.

[freeindeed2]

Not one word about the enemy in there.

If you guys don't dig a little deeper, that's disturbing (I'm being serious).
What's deeper than the Gospel? The Gospel the apostles taught is the meat.

In CHRIST alone...

[Sophia7]

Well again, Free and Sophia, what you have posted as to the statements of faith are pretty fundamental to ALL Christian churches, INCLUDING SDA's.That's the whole point. Many Christian churches agree on certain fundamentals but don't require adherence to as detailed a list of doctrines as the SDA 28 FBs.
But lets get down to the particulars. EVERY ONE of the ND churches that I have checked into ALL hold to the beliefs I posted earlier. (Relisted below) These--you have NOT addressed and I am asking you to right now.
Can you be honest now and stop side stepping my questions?

1. the immorality of a soul
2. sunday sacredness
3. disobedience to God's commandments
4. OSAS
5. futurism
6. ever-lasting punishing

Also, how can we look up your church when we have no idea it's name. As T&O said, if we are going to debate the deception of the ND churches, we should at least know which one you all attend since their teachings are so secretive.

I don't appreciate being called dishonest. As I said earlier, those things are not included in my church's statement of beliefs, so I don't understand why you keep insisting that they are. Now, I'm sure that some members of the church believe some of those things, but they are not official teachings. The church allows for liberty of conscience in the non-essentials. In fact, the pastor believes in annihilationism rather than everlasting torment in hell, and no one that I've talked to there so far believes that Sabbath sacredness has been transferred to Sunday.

I also don't understand why you keep insisting that non-denominational churches are secretive about their beliefs. Free and I have already posted two belief statements for you, and most non-denominational churches make their beliefs readily available to visitors.

And I am not going to tell you the name of my church because it's a local congregation, and I do not post where I live in public forums.

[Jimlarmore]

I have always found it very interesting how the SDA work under different names when promoting their doctrines in evangelism.

I also find it interesting how they say EGW and her writings are not equal to the Scriptures until you become a member and begin studying with them.

Why do they accept EGW yet they don't accept Joseph Smith? Both are just as qualified using the SDA criteria for prophet qualifying.


What are your thoughts?

I have never been to an evangelistic meeting where the speaker announced his churches name nite right from the pulpit up front first nite. I'll give you a prime example. Can you tell me what denomination Billy Graham is in? He's one of the world's most famous evangelist yet he never says what church he belongs to. In sda evangelism they always wind up telling who they are affiliated with later on in the meetings just not initially. The reason is to allow the Bible and the Holy Spirit to work without trying to plow thru biased opinions like you have right here.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Byfaithalone1]

Read it more slowly and carefully.

OK.

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

Seems pretty clear to me.

BFA

[Byfaithalone1]

Can you tell me what denomination Billy Graham is in?

I thought that was common knowledge. He is a Southern Baptist.

BFA

[Byfaithalone1]

Originally Posted by honorthesabbath http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45723448#post45723448)
Well again, Free and Sophia, what you have posted as to the statements of faith are pretty fundamental to ALL Christian churches, INCLUDING SDA's.

But lets get down to the particulars. EVERY ONE of the ND churches that I have checked into ALL hold to the beliefs I posted earlier. (Relisted below) These--you have NOT addressed and I am asking you to right now.
Can you be honest now and stop side stepping my questions?

1. the immorality of a soul
2. sunday sacredness
3. disobedience to God's commandments
4. OSAS
5. futurism
6. ever-lasting punishing


Honor,

I think you're having a hard time with this subject because you assume that all churches approach doctrine in the way that SDAism does. SDAism seeks to be comprehensive in its list of fundamental doctrines. Most non-SDA churches do not. They realize that there are few doctrines that are important for salvation and that there are a number of issues that have sparked widespread debate within the Christian community for centuries. Rather than be devisive over gray matters, they limit their list of doctrines to the salvational issues that are more black-and-white. This isn't deceptive. It is an entirely different philosophy.

In the non-denominational church that I attend, I have met people with differing views the following issues:

1. the immorality of a soul
4. OSAS
6. ever-lasting punishing

I have, however, not met anyone in the church where I attend who believes that Sunday is the sabbath or that obedience is a requirement for salvation.


BFA

[Jimlarmore]

OSAS, immortality of the soul and eternal punishment can lead to salvational issues. When you speak about gray areas of doctrines that the Christian community has debated for years you are speaking of fundamental truths in the Bible that some don't want to accept because it messes with their likes and dislikes. Whether you like a truth or not makes no difference on whether or not it is truth. The truth remains the truth. I've been on both sides of this and seen how some folks like to twist the scriptures to make them say what they want them to say.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Byfaithalone1]

OSAS, immortality of the soul and eternal punishment can lead to salvational issues.

Perhaps the former issue could. I don't espouse it personally, but I know some who do. I fail to see how the latter two issues impact salvation.

When you speak about gray areas of doctrines that the Christian community has debated for years you are speaking of fundamental truths in the Bible that some don't want to accept because it messes with their likes and dislikes.

I disagree. I was largely speaking of the debate between calvinists and arminians. In my study of Scripture, I have found support for certain aspects of both positions. I find that, at least in part, the truth is found in the tension between the two apparantly conflicting camps. I think that too many SDAs tend to crave black-and-white thinking and are incapable of facing the tensions that actually exist in Scripture. I believe that such tension is God-ordained as it leads to a more balanced perspective of who God is.

Whether you like a truth or not makes no difference on whether or not it is truth. The truth remains the truth.

Well, we certainly agree there.

I've been on both sides of this and seen how some folks like to twist the scriptures to make them say what they want them to say.

I have met some folks in this forum who are extremely talented in this regard.

BFA

[freeindeed2]

OSAS, immortality of the soul and eternal punishment can lead to salvational issues.
How so? If a Christian believes that hell is eternal and Jesus comes and they find out that it's not, how has it affected their salvation?

When you speak about gray areas of doctrines that the Christian community has debated for years you are speaking of fundamental truths in the Bible that some don't want to accept because it messes with their likes and dislikes. Whether you like a truth or not makes no difference on whether or not it is truth. The truth remains the truth. I've been on both sides of this and seen how some folks like to twist the scriptures to make them say what they want them to say.
Jesus IS the truth, and I'm not saying that candidly! HE IS THE TRUTH. Be about Jesus.

In CHRIST alone...

[freeindeed2]

Not one word about the enemy in there.

If you guys don't dig a little deeper, that's disturbing (I'm being serious).
The Gospel is about Jesus, not the enemy. Why would a Christian church need to have a doctrine or belief statement about Satan?

In CHRIST alone...

[mva1985]

The Gospel is about Jesus, not the enemy. Why would a Christian church need to have a doctrine or belief statement about Satan?

In CHRIST alone...
You don't think it is necessary to understand his tactics?

[freeindeed2]

You don't think it is necessary to understand his tactics?
The Bible tells us what we need to know about this, and there is a belief statement concerning the Bible. But why would a statement about Satan need to be included in a church's belief statements?

In CHRIST alone...

[Jimlarmore]

I thought that was common knowledge. He is a Southern Baptist.

BFA

Have you ever heard the man say he was a southern baptist? I was baptist for years and didn't know that from his preaching until I inquired. The point is many evangelistic preachers give their message/s without involving doctrinism or denominationism. The sda church is being accused of being deceptive here. I don't think they have been at all as most evangelists don't make their denominational affiliation known up front anyway. It seems this requirement only applies to adventists or else you are being deceptive. Yeah , right!

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Eila]

You don't think it is necessary to understand his tactics?

It is more important to understand that he is already defeated and doomed.

Does Adventism have the devil's tactics as part of their belief statement?

[Eila]

Have you ever heard the man say he was a southern baptist? I was baptist for years and didn't know that from his preaching until I inquired. The point is many evangelistic preachers give their message/s without involving doctrinism or denominationism. The sda church is being accused of being deceptive here. I don't think they have been at all as most evangelists don't make their denominational affiliation known up front anyway. It seems this requirement only applies to adventists or else you are being deceptive. Yeah , right!

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I think many evangelists don't promote their own set of beliefs, but focus on sharing the Gospel. Different churches work together all the time for one event that focuses on sharing the Gospel. Does Billy Graham preach in his crusades about specific doctrinal issues that would make someone join his church? If I'm giving the message of John 3:16 am I presenting a denominational message?

Revelation seminars are designed to promote Adventist beliefs. People are baptized into the SDA church at the end of the meetings after they have learned about Adventist doctrines in the meetings. How much of the meetings are focused on the John 3:16 message?

[mva1985]

It is more important to understand that he is already defeated and doomed.

Does Adventism have the devil's tactics as part of their belief statement?
I understand that he is defeated but that does not stop him from trying to take as many people with him as possible.

One of the ways to help defeat the enemy is to understand his tactics.

[freeindeed2]

I think many evangelists don't promote their own set of beliefs, but focus on sharing the Gospel. Different churches work together all the time for one event that focuses on sharing the Gospel. Does Billy Graham preach in his crusades about specific doctrinal issues that would make someone join his church? If I'm giving the message of John 3:16 am I presenting a denominational message?

Revelation seminars are designed to promote Adventist beliefs. People are baptized into the SDA church at the end of the meetings after they have learned about Adventist doctrines in the meetings. How much of the meetings are focused on the John 3:16 message?
You basically took the words out of my mouth. Groups like the LSD's, JW's, SDA's, etc., should be up-front about who they are and let people know they are teaching them about THEIR doctines and beliefs. If a group holds to an extra-Biblical authority/prophet/prophetess they should be up-front about who they are. SDA Revelation Seminars are NOT a Gospel presentation.

In CHRIST alone...

[mva1985]

You basically took the words out of my mouth. Groups like the LSD's, JW's, SDA's, etc., should be up-front about who they are and let people know they are teaching them about THEIR doctines and beliefs. If a group holds to an extra-Biblical authority/prophet/prophetess they should be up-front about who they are. SDA Revelation Seminars are NOT a Gospel presentation.

In CHRIST alone...

Learning about prophecy and what God has in store for us IS NOT a gospel presentation? Hardly.

Every different aspect that we study in the Bible will reveal more of God's character to us. Learning about Him is learning about the Gospel.

[Byfaithalone1]

Learning about prophecy and what God has in store for us IS NOT a gospel presentation? Hardly.

Every different aspect that we study in the Bible will reveal more of God's character to us. Learning about Him is learning about the Gospel.

When teaching about the gospel, what more is needed than to teach that the man who sins is a slave to sin, but through faith in the grace of Jesus Christ, man is credited with the righteousness of Christ and receives the assurance of salvation? In terms of salvation, what other instruction is needed? SDAs often claim that they believe in salvation by grace through faith alone, but posts such as this one suggest that some do not.

BFA

[Jimlarmore]

I think many evangelists don't promote their own set of beliefs, but focus on sharing the Gospel. Different churches work together all the time for one event that focuses on sharing the Gospel. Does Billy Graham preach in his crusades about specific doctrinal issues that would make someone join his church? If I'm giving the message of John 3:16 am I presenting a denominational message?

Revelation seminars are designed to promote Adventist beliefs. People are baptized into the SDA church at the end of the meetings after they have learned about Adventist doctrines in the meetings. How much of the meetings are focused on the John 3:16 message?

Quite a bit actually. When you say that Revelation seminars are designed to promote adventist beliefs I agree. However, from my perspective adventists beliefs align perfectly with what the Bible says so how can you criticize? Only when you stand outside the Bible and it's truths or twist them do you go against adventist's beliefs. I"ve been on both sides of this and have seen it.

God bless
Jim Larmore

[Jimlarmore]

When teaching about the gospel, what more is needed than to teach that the man who sins is a slave to sin, but through faith in the grace of Jesus Christ, man is credited with the righteousness of Christ and receives the assurance of salvation? In terms of salvation, what other instruction is needed? SDAs often claim that they believe in salvation by grace through faith alone, but posts such as this one suggest that some do not.

BFA

You stop at the justification phase of salvation and leave off the sanctification phase. Christ also tells us to pick up our cross and follow Him. Paul says we are to die daily. This all means a changed life and allowing the power of Christ to transform us. If you don't worry about sin anymore and go ahead and intentionally break God's law's without confession or repentence that is not a changed life and it is not being saved.

God bless
Jim Larmore

[Eila]

Quite a bit actually.

We must have attended different seminars then. In the last seminar I attended the John 3:16 message was covered in about 10-15 minutes toward the beginning of the meetings. Granted, they had cards they passed out where a person could check off that they accepted Jesus and that happened on more than one occasion, but the message that Jesus died and came to save them was gone over quickly. That is understandable because the marketing of the meetings is targeted to those who are Christian.

Also, I grew up attending seminars. I learned all about Daniel and Revelation and knew what beasts stood for what at a young age. Yet, I didn't understand the Gospel until I was at least 15. If the Gospel was so prevalent then should it have taken so long. My understanding of the Gospel didn't come through a seminar either, but through a dedicated Bible teacher in academy.



When you say that Revelation seminars are designed to promote adventist beliefs I agree.

Which is why SDAs should identify themselves when they advertise for meetings.


However, from my perspective adventists beliefs align perfectly with what the Bible says so how can you criticize? Only when you stand outside the Bible and it's truths or twist them do you go against adventist's beliefs. I"ve been on both sides of this and have seen it.


You have the right to believe that. The issue here is transparency. If your church is holding meetings that are designed to promote Adventist beliefs then they should identify themselves as Adventist. If you have the truth then why hide your identity? Attendance tends to drop dramatically after the Sabbath message which is usually still in the neutral location. Wonder why? I'm sure the perception is that people can't handle what you believe to be truth. Maybe they just realized who was putting on the meetings and already had a Biblical position on many SDA unique beliefs.

[Byfaithalone1]

You stop at the justification phase of salvation and leave off the sanctification phase.

Indeed I do not. Justification and sanctification are not separate phases and both come from God, not man:

"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1 "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren." Hebrews 2

"After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10Did you notice that, in each of these passages, "sanctified" is either past or present tense (not progressive or future tense)? Also, did you also notice the source of "sanctification." It isn't by human effort.

Christ also tells us to pick up our cross and follow Him.

Are we saved by picking up our cross? Are we justified by picking up our cross? Are we sanctified by picking up our cross? Or are we saved, justified and sanctified by God?

Please read the passages that relate to taking up one's cross. You will note that they have nothing to do with the law and much to do with dying!

Paul says we are to die daily.

No, he says that he dies daily.

This all means a changed life and allowing the power of Christ to transform us.

Allowing? Do you presume that you tell a sovereign God what He will and will not do? Believers are transformed. That is what happens in the lives of believers.



If you don't worry about sin anymore and go ahead and intentionally break God's law's without confession or repentence that is not a changed life and it is not being saved. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." 1 John 1:8Why have you concluded that I wish to intentionally sin or that I believe that one is saved by intentionally sinning? Advocating for the ministry of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as advocating for sin, my friend. Therefore, I reiterate my question:

Q: When teaching about the gospel, what more is needed than to teach that the man who sins is a slave to sin, but through faith in the grace of Jesus Christ, man is credited with the righteousness of Christ and receives the assurance of salvation?

BFA

P.S. A careful observer will once again notice that an SDA has advocated that one is not saved by grace through faith alone.

[Jimlarmore]

BFA,
You never mention sanctification in your description of what the gospel was all about only that you stand justified in the blood of Christ. So are you saying that a change in the life from sin is necessary to be saved?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Jimlarmore]

You have the right to believe that. The issue here is transparency. If your church is holding meetings that are designed to promote Adventist beliefs then they should identify themselves as Adventist. If you have the truth then why hide your identity?

To my knowledge no one does. They don't hang out an sda flame and sign on the prophecy seminar entrance door but like I said neither does anyone else who evangelizes either.

Attendance tends to drop dramatically after the Sabbath message which is usually still in the neutral location. Wonder why? I'm sure the perception is that people can't handle what you believe to be truth. Maybe they just realized who was putting on the meetings and already had a Biblical position on many SDA unique beliefs.

The Sabbath is and will be the separating point for many so called Christians. The truth of the Sabbath is undeniable. Twisting scripture to make it seem to be unnecessary to celebrate won't change the truth of it's significance to the creator who made it for us/mankind. The Bible is very clear on the Sabbath truth. Those who don't want to accept truth will either walk away or find a way to rationalize it away so they don't have to feel obligated to accept it. So the attendance drops off. Christ asked the question if there would be many faithful when He returned.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Eila]

To my knowledge no one does. They don't hang out an sda flame and sign on the prophecy seminar entrance door but like I said neither does anyone else who evangelizes either.

As I mentioned previously Evangelists like Billy Graham aren't promoting their distinct beliefs, but the Gospel. I know many different churches work together for the sake of the Gospel and various churches do follow-up. Also, many evangelists that don't fill stadiums typically have their meetings in church buildings.

The SDA seminars typically don't mention SDA affiliation, yet the seminars are designed to promote SDA beliefs. Big difference.



The Sabbath is and will be the separating point for many so called Christians. The truth of the Sabbath is undeniable. Twisting scripture to make it seem to be unnecessary to celebrate won't change the truth of it's significance to the creator who made it for us/mankind. The Bible is very clear on the Sabbath truth. Those who don't want to accept truth will either walk away or find a way to rationalize it away so they don't have to feel obligated to accept it. So the attendance drops off. Christ asked the question if there would be many faithful when He returned.

I realize that is how an Adventist sees it, but many Christians (the ones attending the seminars) have a Biblical understanding that differs from yours. You must admit that some people must feel duped when they realize the meetings are put on by SDAs and the point in time when they most likely realize it is at the Sabbath presentation. Isn't it usually after the Sabbath is presented that the meetings are moved to the SDA church building?

[Your Neighbor]

Haven't read the thread, but what is "wise" to one may be "deceptive" to another.

Matthew 10:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

[Jimlarmore]

As I mentioned previously Evangelists like Billy Graham aren't promoting their distinct beliefs, but the Gospel.

Not just the gospel only you are mistaken on that. Graham's talks involve upright proper living that align very well with the ten commandments. As a matter of fact Billy Graham is a proponent of the ten commandments as is most of evenagelicals and non-denominational churches now days.

I know many different churches work together for the sake of the Gospel and various churches do follow-up. Also, many evangelists that don't fill stadiums typically have their meetings in church buildings.

I guess you don't live in the south or central part of the states. We have what many call brush harbor meetings down here where they throw up a tent and have a Bible thumping evangelistic meeting that last up to three weeks some times. You don't see any signs of church affliations up front on them.


I realize that is how an Adventist sees it, but many Christians (the ones attending the seminars) have a Biblical understanding that differs from yours. You must admit that some people must feel duped when they realize the meetings are put on by SDAs and the point in time when they most likely realize it is at the Sabbath presentation. Isn't it usually after the Sabbath is presented that the meetings are moved to the SDA church building?

Not at all. I have never seen anyone who makes a big deal out of being duped into coming to a prophecy seminar. Most of the seminars are conducted in a location like a college or community center for the entire length of the meetings. After the Sabbath truth is preached they always invite those attending to come and worship the next Sabbath at the local church.

I honestly feel the reason some here are making a big deal out of this is because they hate adventism and want to malign it because there is absolutely no deception being used at all. To me that means they hate the truth that is found in the Bible and the work of the Holy Spirit.

As far as having a different view of the truths in the Bible than I do, thats ok. I'm not perfect and I still need to discover new and present truth. I have always said if I could find a church that aligns closer to the Bible than the sda church I would go there. So far that hasn't happened in the last 6-7 years or so. The longer I am in the sda church the more I am convinced it is the remnant of God. They have the oracles of truth in the Bible like no other denomination.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[djconklin]

We didn't go to any of these alleged deceptive meetings. A neighbor who was a co-worker with my dad at 3M asked us if we'd like to have Bible studies. Since we already believed in the bible we said sure! Part way though the neighbor noted that the Methodist church which we attended believed in certain things that we had never heard of before. Since the pastor of the church was another neighbor my folks went over and asked him about it. He said "Yes that's what we believe too." So, the obvious question then was "Why aren't you preaching it in church then?" His response? "Because if I did I'd lose my job." We joined the SDA church because we wanted to hear what the Bible says.

A couple of years ago I was dealing with Bible critics. onbe of them was Acquistapace who wrote the book "Miracles Never Were." He claims to teach sunday School in a Methodist church. Be interesting to hear what the Gospel is to them!

[freeindeed2]

Learning about prophecy and what God has in store for us IS NOT a gospel presentation? Hardly.


Every different aspect that we study in the Bible will reveal more of God's character to us. Learning about Him is learning about the Gospel.Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1 Cor. 15:1-5

Paul preached THIS Gospel: Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and raised from the dead, and appeared. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Gal. 1:6-9
That's a STERN warning to NOT add to the Gospel Paul preached, and he wasn't preaching Revelation as the 'Gospel'.

In CHRIST alone...

[TrustAndObey]

See, this is exactly why there's been so much debate over just John 3:16-17. Some say those two verses alone ARE the Gospel.

Okay, so just those two verses certainly bring up a lot of questions do they not?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Where does everlasting life take place? Is everlasting life in hellfire still not everlasting life?

What does perish mean?

Jesus said "Whosoever believeth in Me......." Do we ignore those verses? John 3:16 says we have to believe in Him and HE said "if you do........"

Obviously some that believe He existed do not believe IN Him, so where does the difference fall?

ETC ETC ETC

If those two verses were all God wanted us to know, I don't think we'd have a book as large as the Holy Bible. My personal opinion of course.

[TrustAndObey]

Straight from Christ Himself.......John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Even those that don't believe on Him enjoy sunlight daily, so what does it mean to abide in darkness? Now? Just while He was here on earth? After death?

From Paul:

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

How? We have to confess our sins and ask for forgiveness, no?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Did Christ add to the Gospel?

What is baptism? What is it symbolic OF? Believing entails a lot, does it not?

[Jimlarmore]

We didn't go to any of these alleged deceptive meetings. A neighbor who was a co-worker with my dad at 3M asked us if we'd like to have Bible studies. Since we already believed in the bible we said sure! Part way though the neighbor noted that the Methodist church which we attended believed in certain things that we had never heard of before. Since the pastor of the church was another neighbor my folks went over and asked him about it. He said "Yes that's what we believe too." So, the obvious question then was "Why aren't you preaching it in church then?" His response? "Because if I did I'd lose my job." We joined the SDA church because we wanted to hear what the Bible says.

A couple of years ago I was dealing with Bible critics. onbe of them was Acquistapace who wrote the book "Miracles Never Were." He claims to teach sunday School in a Methodist church. Be interesting to hear what the Gospel is to them!

When I studied some of the truths in the Bible like the state of the dead and the Sabbath I was still in another denomination. I tried desparately to find texts to fit what the church I was in believed but I couldn't. So I was in the same shape your parents were in. Wondering why they teach an immortal soul concept when the Bible does not teach that at all. The only way you can grasp that lie is to rely on one parable and a few vague texts that really don't say that the soul is immortal anyway.

The Sabbath? Man, that was a huge one for me. Most preachers won't even touch that one from the pulpit in a Sunday church. When I first started to deal with that I was shocked and confused. There are millions out there who really don't know the Sabbath truth. The ones who do and reject it have to deal with it mentally and emotionally some way.

The most famous response is that Christ rose on that day but they can't find anything in the Bible that makes that event a reason to change the sanctity of the Sabbath. Then you have many here that to rationalize away their violation of God's holy day just throw out all of God's commandments all together and say you can sin with perceived impunity.

It's almost funny that based on these facts and the theme of this thread. Who really has been deceptive all thru the years? Yeah , Ok!

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[PROPHECYKID]

The Old Covenant contained everything within the Old Testament but the heart of the Old Covenant was seen at mount Sinai, which was given to and spoken by Moses.

Please do not get confused with the meaning of the word testament in the context used in Hebrews. The old testament or covenant is not the same as the old testament of the bible. By definition a testament is a covenant. It seems like you believe that the old covenant is the old testament meaning the first 39 books of the bible but this is wrong. It is the old testament meaning the old agreement,

The New Covenant contains everything that was given to and spoken by Christ but the heart of the New Covenant is seen not at mount Sinai, but rather, at the sermon on the mount. Two different mountains and two different times.

The new covenant was made with the house of Israel and God said that in that covenant he would put his law in their hearts and that he would take away their sins. According to the book of Hebrews K4c what was at the heart of the old covenant. Seriously. When speaking about the old covenant what does Hebrews talk about. What in the old covenant was faulty? Read carefully again Hebrews 8, 9 and 10 and answer this question.

So in the nut shell, everything spoken by Jesus is the foundation of the New Covenant. The sign of the New Covenant is no longer the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, the Lord's supper.

Where can you show me in the bible where the Lord's supper replaces the Sabbath? Jesus instituted that feast and said to do this in remembrance of him. God said to keep the Sabbath because he made the earth. I see no contradictions. The foundation of the new Covenant is Jesus and not what he said.

[Pythons]

When I studied some of the truths in the Bible like the state of the dead and the Sabbath I was still in another denomination. I tried desparately to find texts to fit what the church I was in believed but I couldn't.


Could I suggest you didn't look in the correct place? "As if he was never born" would equate to what you describe the state of the evil dead after the General Judgment, they cease to exist and are like they were never born. According to Christ, this isn't the way it works because Judas at this time is waiting for his body to be united again with his spirit, confirming Jesus' serious warning that people should fear the One who has the power to cast "BOTH" body and soul into hell.

"The Son of Man will go as it is written about Him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born". Mark 14,21

"If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trails and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgement WHILE CONTINUING their punishment". 2 Peter 2,9

Worry not, I will be visiting this issue again and continue with TrustAndObey's thread when my material arrives and I can incorporate it into my current word document.

[Byfaithalone1]

In the Spirit of what I ACTUALLY wrote regarding John 3, let’s consider your comments carefully.

Where does everlasting life take place?

Why would one need the answer to this question in order to receive the free gift of salvation? Note that this was the context of what I wrote regarding John 3.

Is everlasting life in hellfire still not everlasting life?

Why would one need the answer to this question in order to receive the free gift of salvation? Note that this was the context of what I wrote regarding John 3.

What does perish mean?

Why would one need the answer to this question in order to receive the free gift of salvation? Note that this was the context of what I wrote regarding John 3.

Jesus said "Whosoever believeth in Me......." Do we ignore those verses?

No. However, do they present a prerequisite for salvation?

John 3:16 says we have to believe in Him and HE said "if you do........"

. . . you have eternal life.

Obviously some that believe He existed do not believe IN Him, so where does the difference fall?

Wouldn’t the author and finisher of our faith make this determination?

Straight from Christ Himself.......John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

So a natural byproduct of belief and justification is living in the light. We aren’t in disagreement on this point. This doesn’t mean that one’s salvation comes from living in the light. Nor does it mean that “living in the light” is something that humans are capable of doing separate from God.

How? We have to confess our sins and ask for forgiveness, no?

That certainly isn’t articulated in Acts 10:43.


Did Christ add to the Gospel?

Nope. Christ never said that he who is not baptized shall be damned.

If those two verses were all God wanted us to know,

No one has made this claim. You have assumed that I have made that claim despite the fact that I’ve clearly articulated that I believe there are many beneficial things to be found throughout the Scriptures.

I don't think we'd have a book as large as the Holy Bible. My personal opinion of course.

It is solely your opinion that some believe that John 3 is all that God wants us to know. It isn’t mine.

BFA

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustAndObey http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45725367#post45725367)
Not one word about the enemy in there.

If you guys don't dig a little deeper, that's disturbing (I'm being serious).

The Gospel is about Jesus, not the enemy. Why would a Christian church need to have a doctrine or belief statement about Satan?

Paul uses the analogy of a war and battle. Any good general gets to know his enemy so he can have a better chance of beating him.

In our case, when we realize when we are being tempted from the git-go we can more easily through God's power resist him and he will flee from us just as the Bible promises.

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustAndObey http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45723669#post45723669)
There's a full blown sermon at each of those times?

Absolutely! Pure, true, unadulterated, Gospel of Jesus Christ messages.

See Paul's sermon at Athens.

[TrustAndObey]

Pssst....BFA:

Matthew 20:23 And He (who?) saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Byfaithalone1]

Pssst....BFA:

Matthew 20:23 And He (who?) saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where is the evidence that he who does not partake of water baptism does not receive salvation? Clearly we see that he who doesn't believe does not receive salvation.

What about the rest of my post?

BFA

[freeindeed2]

Where is the evidence that he who does not partake of water baptism does not receive salvation? Clearly we see that he who doesn't believe does not receive salvation.

What about the rest of my post?

BFA
It's ALWAYS about belief in Jesus and what HE did on our behalf.

In CHRIST alone...

[Byfaithalone1]

It's ALWAYS about belief in Jesus and what HE did on our behalf.

In CHRIST alone...

Agreed.

[djconklin]

Yep, says so in Steps to Christ written by EGW and the Bible to which she constantly pointed her readers.