Between Malachi and Matthew

[Asaph]

Hello everybody,
I have a couple of historical questions that I asked previously in another forum, but didn't really get any answers and I thought maybe the folks who frequent this section might be more able. (I've been visiting here a bit, which is what makes me think I might get the answers here). I hope that this post is not in violation of the "doctrinal" requirement of rule #3 as I'm looking more for historical information than doctrine. If it is please forgive my intrusion and delete this post for me.
Thank you,
Asaph

What exactly was happening historically with the Hebrews between Malachi and Matthew as far as their relationship with G-d?

Were they still adding to what we Christians call the old testament?

Were there prophets in the land and if so, why is it not in the Christian old testament? (I mean apart from cannonization considerations if that is possible)

I think that I read somewhere that the Talmud is what the Hebrews used as their scriptures, but that it not only contained the history, the law, and the prophets, but it also included oral tradition. Is that still being maintained today?

I tried to look for answers to these things in other parts of the forum but there is just too much to search through.

Thanks for your help,
Asaph

[torahlife]

Asaph,

The time period in Israel between Malachi and Matt is fraught with change. The Greek empire grew into a superpower and began invading and conquering the middle east. The books of the Maccabees tell of the Israeli revolt against the invading Greeks about 160 BCE whereas Israel won a temporal victory until the Romans invaded in approx 62 BCE. The land of Judah then became a mixture of Hebrew, Greek and Roman peoples.

The Jews adopted many Hellenistic ideas into their lifestyles and theologies. The Greek language became used by many. We are familiar with the writings of Philo and Josephus who were Hellenistic Jews. There are also numerous inter-testamental writings by Jewish authors available in compilations such as the Pseudpigrapha 1 and 2. It was not the "Silent" time as some refer to it. Judaism was growing and evolving amidst all the cultural change. The schools of Shammai and Hillel were quite popular as the expositors of Torah.

Also within the timeframe between the Malachi and Matt came the development of the synagogue. Not everyone went to the temple to worship as the Jewish peoples were spread throughout the lands, so they began to build central places of worship in their communities. This is where they would meet and study scripture.

As far as the question if they were adding to the scriptures, no, but they were expounding upon the scripture. There are lots of extra biblical writings as evidence to their continuing study of the scriptures.

Were their prophets in the land, you asked. Mabie not as we understand a prophet to be as a Jeremiah, Isaiah,etc. But a prophet is technically one who proclaims Torah, so there could have been.

No the Talmud is not scripture, although it is considered authoritative. It is an elaboration of the understanding of Torah. The Talmud was not written until later. The word scripture referrs to Torah, and/or all the TaNaKh.

There was a lot of history going on in this time period. The writings are out there, I encourage you to seek them out and read them.

If you would like more historical elaboration on these things let me or others know and I/we can refer you to specific sources if information.
Blessings,
torahlife

[muffler dragon]

Good to have you in this neck of the woods, Asaph.

Sit down and stay a while. There is where it's good to reside.

Nathan

[Asaph]

torahlife,

Thank you so much. That was just what I was looking for. I have two more question though and I promise I won't pester you after that. Do you know of a link to the writings you mention on the web? And what does the word TaNaKh mean? I've seen it in a few threads but never with enough context for me to figure it out.

Again, thank you so much for the information,

Grace, Mercy and Peace,
Asaph

[Asaph]

Good to have you in this neck of the woods, Asaph.

Sit down and stay a while. There is where it's good to reside.

Nathan
Thanks MD. I have been lurking (if that's the right word) quite a bit, but most is way over my head. So I'll sit quietly in the corner when i can and see if I can get it to soak in.:D

Have a wonderful day,
Asaph

[muffler dragon]

torahlife,

Thank you so much. That was just what I was looking for. I have two more question though and I promise I won't pester you after that. Do you know of a link to the writings you mention on the web? And what does the word TaNaKh mean? I've seen it in a few threads but never with enough context for me to figure it out.

Again, thank you so much for the information,

Grace, Mercy and Peace,
Asaph
Tanakh is an acronym, excuse my spelling, but it looks like this:

Torah
Nevi'im
Ketvi'im

Book of Instruction (Law) = Torah
The other two are the writings and the prophets, but I don't know which is which.

[Asaph]

Tanakh is an acronym, excuse my spelling, but it looks like this:

Torah
Nevi'im
Ketvi'im

Book of Instruction (Law) = Torah
The other two are the writings and the prophets, but I don't know which is which.
Thanks MD. When you say Book of Instruction (Law) does that mean the pentatuch or just Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

Peace to you,
Asaph

[Talmidah]

Thanks MD. When you say Book of Instruction (Law) does that mean the pentatuch or just Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

Peace to you,
Asaph
Asaph,
The Torah is indeed Genesis - Deuteronomy (the Pentateuch)

Nevi'im = the books of the Prophets
Joshua
Judges
I & II Samuel
I & II Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

K'tuvim = Writings
Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra
Nehemiah
I & II Chronicles

[Asaph]

Asaph,
The Torah is indeed Genesis - Deuteronomy (the Pentateuch)

Nevi'im = the books of the Prophets
Joshua
Judges
I & II Samuel
I & II Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

K'tuvim = Writings
Psalms
Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra
Nehemiah
I & II Chronicles
Thank you Talmidah,

I would have expected Daniel to be listed with the prophets though. Why is it that he isn't? Does it have anything to do with his captivity in a foreign land?

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

[Talmidah]

Daniel is not considered to have the mission of a prophet. The main reason being that he did not understand his prophecies and had to have interpretation for them. Also, his prophecies were not intended for his people. They were for future generations...there would be no way for the people of his generation to be able to know if these would come true or not (and thus know if he was a false prophet or not).

I hope this is somewhat clear....I'll be back after the Sabbath :)

[debi b]

If you want more info on the web, start looking for info on Hanukkah (spelled lots of different ways ok - we won't go there ^_^ ) and you will start running into names that you can start searching for. A very big player is Alexander the Great. There is so much historical info available!

[torahlife]

Asaph,

I'ld have to look around to find the web addresses for such info, but looking into the history of BCE (before common era) Israel you can find articles on the books and history of the Maccabees and Alexander the Great who was the leader of the Greek army. Also you can research Pompeii who was the Roman general who invaded Israel.

A web search will reveal lots of historical info including the influence of Greek and Roman thought on the Jewish people.

I would first suggest you read the first two of the four books of the Maccabees. They are part of what is called the "apocraphical writings". You may have them at home and not know it, or check out the library and I know you can read them online as well.

When I find my papers, I will give you some of the web addresses.

torahlife

[visionary]

Now turning to the Book of Maccabees we read the following:

1 Maccabees ch1:7 So Alexander reigned twelve years, and then died. 8 And his servants bare rule every one in his place. 9 And after his death they all put crowns upon themselves; so did their sons after them many years: and evils were multiplied in the earth. 10 And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.

Rollin's Ancient History referring to Antiochus Epiphanes being the fulfillment of the prophecy, says: "No prophecy was ever fulfilled in so clear, so perfectly and so indisputable a manner."

Talking of Antiochus Epiphanes in "Art. Seleucid Dynasty," the Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 24, page 605, says: "…..he is doubtless the monarch described in the psuedo prophetic chapters of Daniel."

A most full account of the doings of Antiochus Epiphanes, and the cleansing of the sanctuary, in the fulfilling of the prophecy is given in Historians History of the world, vol. 2, pages 140-156.

If we use the information and symbology that God has all ready provided for us in the interpretation we would understand that "out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great TOWARD the south, TOWARD the east and TOWARD THE PLEASANT LAND," and not to be a greater kingdom than either Medo-Persia or Grecia.

Daniel 8: 21-22.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

"In the latter time of their (four horns) kingdom."

Before the end of these four kingdoms of Grecia, and before Rome comes into history as a universal kingdom, this "little horn" was to rise. These four kingdoms rise out of Alexander's kingdom and must be still ruling as kingdoms when this "little horn " was to come, this is a major fact in the prophecy.

The first of these four kings began to reign in the year B. C. 306 and continued till 65 B. C. And Antiochus Epiphanes reigned from 175 B. C. to 164 B. C. showing he did reign in the latter times of their kingdoms.

Daniel 8 9.
"Out of one of them came forth a little horn which waxed exceeding great toward the SOUTH and toward the EAST, and toward the PLEASANT LAND."

Again, these four kingdoms were Egypt, Thrace, Macedonia, and Syria; and out of one them comes forth a "little horn," Antiochus Epiphanes;". To fulfill the prophecy the "little horn " was to first go to the SOUTH.

" Maccabees 1:17-19."And the kingdom was established before Antiochus: and he had a mind to reign over the land of Egypt, that he might reign over two kingdoms. And he entered Egypt with a great multitude, with chariots, and elephants and horsemen and a great number of ships: and he made war against Ptolemee, king of Egypt; but Ptolemee was afraid at his presence and fled, and many were wounded unto death. And he took the strong cities in the land of Egypt and he took the spoils of the land of Egypt.

[Asaph]

Thank you all so much. This gives me a much deeper well to draw from in my bible studies and I pray G-d blesses you all richly in his Love.

Grace, Mercy, and Peace to you,
Asaph

[debi b]

Thought maybe we could use a blast from the past.

Nice, interesting, fun conversations :wave:

[ContraMundum]

What exactly was happening historically with the Hebrews between Malachi and Matthew as far as their relationship with G-d?

Lots- but the perhaps most important events are recorded in the first two books of the Maccabees.

Were they still adding to what we Christians call the old testament? Yes, they were. However, most of the early Christians decided that the extra books were of a different canonical level. They were still included in the Christian canon, however. Since the Reformation, many have rejected the books of first canon on grounds of biblicism rather than approaching them as the early church did.

Were there prophets in the land and if so, why is it not in the Christian old testament? (I mean apart from cannonization considerations if that is possible)According to the NT, there were still prophets in the land, many mentioned in events surrounding the birth and early years of Jesus. This could be understood as happening in a form known as "bat kol" (google it).

However, some Jewish writings declare that the Holy Spirit had departed from Israel almost completely. For the Jewish perspective on this, and further details about the departure of the Holy Spirit (apart from "bat kol"), read this. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=865&letter=H) The Jewish and Christian perspectives do meet together somewhere in the middle well, IMHO.

think that I read somewhere that the Talmud is what the Hebrews used as their scriptures, but that it not only contained the history, the law, and the prophets, but it also included oral tradition. Is that still being maintained today?The Talmud is really more of a commentary. The others will answer here.

[Ivy]

Tanakh is an acronym, excuse my spelling, but it looks like this:

Torah
Nevi'im
Ketvi'im

Book of Instruction (Law) = Torah
The other two are the writings and the prophets, but I don't know which is which.

Wow, check it out! :thumbsup: I never knew that.