The Emergent Church - open discussion of opinions & aspects

[Nadiine]

This is an open thread to discuss all parameters of the emergent church (Emerging Church/EC) and those in it or who promote it.

I'll be posting some links here from a previous thread now being closed.

[Nadiine]

Here's a link to what's being done to the Bible and their views on scripture/doctrine:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/301-emerging-church-versus-scripture

This quote is exactly the problem with EC, it's pushing to change Christianity and scripture to fit society instead of vice versa:
One of my biggest objections to this movement is the way they're altering scripture interpretation to support modern society as it changes, instead of using scripture to change a fallen society.

[desmalia]

Criswell (sorry, I said it was Zec by mistake) posted this link in the other thread, and I think it has a lot of valuable info:

http://criswell.files.wordpress.com/2006/03/3,2%20APastoralPerspectiveontheEmergentChurch%5BDriscoll%5D.PDF

What concerns me about the EC is that it is based in post modernism. I'm all for the idea of having some churches that get away from liturgical/ceremonial type services. I think there were early churches like that too. In addition the EC promotes a desire to be focused on outreach. Also good. The problem is that it tries to be relevant to our culture today, SPECIFICALLY post modernism. But post modernism itself does not mesh with Scripture. You end up having to chose one or the other. Either there is objective, knowable truth, or there isn't. So what I see the EC doing is appealing to disgruntled Christians who are frustrated with all the current problems with mediocre, luke warm churches. But it's not offering a solid Bible-based alternative. It's actually drawing people away from the Christ of the Scriptures. It embraces things like contemplative prayer (as you mentioned, Nadiine) and other mystic/pagan/RC/etc. practices. It's touted as the answer to the current problem with church in the Western world. But what it offers is that we become like the world, which is absolutely the opposite of what God teaches and commands us in the Scriptures. Is it possible some pastors will come out of it and be able to build strong churches? Well with God anything is possible. But I don't see the EC as the only option for the future. If change is needed, we can do it without embracing post modernism and other eastern philosophies.

[Cris413]

Hi everyone...

I'm not gonna bring Quick Draw MacGraw into play here...but I would however like to give some guidance to this thread...which is a continuation of the thread that was just closed at the OP's request...in which I was about to bring Quick Draw in as a friendly reminder before the request to close the thread.

While this is a very important topic IMHO...please lets keep a few things in mind as we post....

Most of you did an excellant job posting in context and not making it personal...some however...not so much...

So please, while discussing this topic...please refrain from moving from context to personal criticisms of other members.

As well...This thread is posted in the main forum...non-ND member debate is not permitted.

Nadiine...if you would like me to move this thread to the D/D subforum so Zec can post/debate freely...I'll be happy to do so...Otherwise he is limited to fellowship posts only.

[Nadiine]

Hi everyone...

I'm not gonna bring Quick Draw MacGraw into play here...but I would however like to give some guidance to this thread...which is a continuation of the thread that was just closed at the OP's request...in which I was about to bring Quick Draw in as a friendly reminder before the request to close the thread.

While this is a very important topic IMHO...please lets keep a few things in mind as we post....

Most of you did an excellant job posting in context and not making it personal...some however...not so much...

So please, while discussing this topic...please refrain from moving from context to personal criticisms of other members.

As well...This thread is posted in the main forum...non-ND member debate is not permitted.

Nadiine...if you would like me to move this thread to the D/D subforum so Zec can post/debate freely...I'll be happy to do so...Otherwise he is limited to fellowship posts only.
Sure Cris, you can move this thread to the subforum so others can discuss it instead of fellowship only restricting anyone.

thanks for the advice.

So I guess I should just ask this please be moved?
thank you very much!

[Artificial Intelligence]

Can we do that with dragging posts over here? Oh I guess our own posts, eh? Used to be you couldn’t reply/repost other peoples comments to other threads at least. Bummer because I wanted to answer that last reply to me.

I don’t find that the full article/transcript changes the quotes I posted. Seemed to be Rick Warren was reinventing what Christian fundamentalism means, narrowing it down to a small group and then smacking all the groups with it that hold to Christian fundamentalism. Divide and conquer, perhaps? There really are Christian Fundamentalist “mega churches” in modern times. If Christian Fundamentalism is so near death and rare as Warren claims, than why does he spend the time to denounce it and say all these people need to change or die? Wouldn’t it be of no matter if Christian Fundamentalism were not so common as he claims? After all, you hear the negative things said about the Fundamentalist/right-wing in the news all the time, and how they are to blame for all the worlds woes, so they must exist, right?

I think one of the leading things about the EC is regarding the rejection of Christian fundamentalism, may be in line with what Nadiine is voicing here primary concern about interpretation, or if I can say, the fifth point of fundamentalism regarding this which is inerrancy of scripture. I mean lets face it, a lot of people try to implement other “truths” into the word to make it “relevant” for today, as if God’s word somehow is insufficient to be used to minister to the Saints in completeness because culture has changed a bit (nothing new under the sun). This is where things like… yes I’ll bring it up… where psychology comes onto the scene, and other such teachings that add to scriptures as if scripture alone is incapable of being all one needs for every need. They may have their points, I agree, but so do porcupines, and why would someone want to stand near a porcupine for all of its points and how it really uses them?

Yes, my narrow and “legalistic” view (as they say). But then the bible does say wide is the way that leads to destruction, does it not? Scriptures themselves teach a very narrow view, and that scripture alone is sufficient for your every need. Anything that man can think up to try to add to it, to make it “relevant” for today, well ultimately will only confuse the word of God, to confuse the reader of it that they have serious trouble understanding the word of God because the other teachings flushing through their mind don’t allow them to see the truth (all of it) in scripture.

Yes, I’ma Fundie. I don’t deny it and I’m not ashamed. As a Christian Fundamentalist, I see the definition of it often bent out of shape by media outlets and any that would wish to do damage to the fundamentals of the Christian faith. I do say though, I’m a Fundie in balance, modern Fundamentalism you could say, because there are Fundies, historically (but not all), that really go overboard with other things that just are not scriptural (like prohibition etc), but I’m a Fundie nonetheless. In fact my Church associates itself with being Christian Fundamentalist (as written in the doc “what Calvary Chapel believes“), in balance, and this is probably one of the leading reasons I joined my Church when I was around 20 years old coming from the Southern Baptist and Presbyterian Churches. Though, I like the older version of that doc, I think written by Broderson (I think…), where he says “Evangelical-Fundamentalist” which is quite true since you can remove Fundamentalism from Evangelicalism, but you can’t remove Evangelicalism from Fundamentalism.

So yeah, when I reject enlightenment, postmodernism, the RCC, abortion, homosexual lifestyle, philosophy, psychology, the EC, the Ecumenical Movement, gun control, environmentalism, Pagan focused entertainment, …the list goes on, I am swiftly recognized as a fundamentalist by all… or right-wing fundamentalist closed-minded legalistic backwards-thinking homophobic individual (last word usually varying) ;)
Bu I still luv ya.

[Nadiine]

I agree with your post Ai. I think it's sad that Warren did the typical misapplication of the term fundamentalist. He did what society has been doing, redefining terms.

Instead of fighting it, he throws them all under the bus. Well, no wonder tho, they're the types that spot the falsity and call it out of the closets.
So, he needs to attack as he has.

I have to say again, that I never used to join in with the 'attack Rick Warren' discussions in the past becuz I felt they were somewhat legalistic against him just becuz he got popular. Just becoming another target for prudish Christians to go after.

But after hearing my sister's research on this subject for the past 6 months, it's really opened my eyes to how widespread this has become within mainstream evangelical churches.

Due to that, I'll absolutely go on the attack of Rick Warren for what he's trying to morph God's church into and I believe it directly fits in with the end times prophecys about people falling away from the faith and if it was possible, the elect being decieved becuz it will be so powerful and strong.

They use enough truth and enough "Christian lingo" to get people hooked, but lead them towards global religion and world peace.... while attacking the 'fundamental church' who's trying to warn God's people of false doctrines

[Nadiine]

I'd also make a note that I'm seeing a unified rejection of "doctrine" being taught. If you can 'dumb down' the church, it's more likely they won't figure out your agenda.

Joel Osteen does this as well and look how successful it is - are the people of his church ready for the front lines of spiritual warfare?
Not without a motivational tape and pom pom's they aren't.

[desmalia]

After researching more about Warren in the last few years I was not really surprised to see that both he and Hybels signed this petition (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071201/30291_Vatican:_Pope_Open_to_Meeting_with_Muslim_Leaders.htm).

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071201/30291_Vatican:_Pope_Open_to_Meeting_with_Muslim_Leaders.htmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTY-9FY13kw

[Cris413]

I had no idea about Rick Warren...or the Emergent church and what-not...I don't pay a lot of attention to such things.

I did buy a copy of Purpose Driven Life to see what all the hoopla was about...

I read about 2 chapters and put it down...a little nudge from the Holy Spirit told me I had read all I needed to.

The only time I picked up the book again...was to take it off my desk because I didn't want to send the wrong message to anyone who may see it and think I endorsed that ideology.

[ARBITER01]

I'd also make a note that I'm seeing a unified rejection of "doctrine" being taught. If you can 'dumb down' the church, it's more likely they won't figure out your agenda.

Joel Osteen does this as well and look how successful it is - are the people of his church ready for the front lines of spiritual warfare?
Not without a motivational tape and pom pom's they aren't.


Lol, that is about it.

Feel good Christianity will always appeal to those that want to make Christianity out to be what they want it to be instead of the example The Lord Jesus gave us.

[Zecryphon]

Zec posted this link in the other thread, and I think it has a lot of valuable info:

http://criswell.files.wordpress.com/2006/03/3,2%20APastoralPerspectiveontheEmergentChurch%5BDriscoll%5D.PDF

What concerns me about the EC is that it is based in post modernism. I'm all for the idea of having some churches that get away from liturgical/ceremonial type services. I think there were early churches like that too. In addition the EC promotes a desire to be focused on outreach. Also good. The problem is that it tries to be relevant to our culture today, SPECIFICALLY post modernism. But post modernism itself does not mesh with Scripture. You end up having to chose one or the other. Either there is objective, knowable truth, or there isn't. So what I see the EC doing is appealing to disgruntled Christians who are frustrated with all the current problems with mediocre, luke warm churches. But it's not offering a solid Bible-based alternative. It's actually drawing people away from the Christ of the Scriptures. It embraces things like contemplative prayer (as you mentioned, Nadiine) and other mystic/pagan/RC/etc. practices. It's touted as the answer to the current problem with church in the Western world. But what it offers is that we become like the world, which is absolutely the opposite of what God teaches and commands us in the Scriptures. Is it possible some pastors will come out of it and be able to build strong churches? Well with God anything is possible. But I don't see the EC as the only option for the future. If change is needed, we can do it without embracing post modernism and other eastern philosophies.
Desmalia,

I did not post that link to Criswell. That was posted by Frisbee. Here are the links that I posted:

http://www.kfuoam.org/Issues_ETC/ie_01_03_08.htm

http://www.stupidchurchpeople.com/20...e_archive.html (http://www.stupidchurchpeople.com/2005_05_01_stupidchurchpeople_archive.html)

The content of which has yet to be addressed by any supporter of Rick Warren.

[Nadiine]

After researching more about Warren in the last few years I was not really surprised to see that both he and Hybels signed this petition (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071201/30291_Vatican:_Pope_Open_to_Meeting_with_Muslim_Leaders.htm).

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071201/30291_Vatican:_Pope_Open_to_Meeting_with_Muslim_Leaders.htmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTY-9FY13kw
I had forgotten about that, that was one of the things my sister had told me about too. She has alot of info on that.
This is what I mean, all I see happening is the end times prophecy of a one world religion being pushed under the guise of "fixing things" for peace.
IS THAT THE CHRISTIAN'S POSITION according to end times? No, it's Satan's agenda, not ours.

Christians should have a serious problem with this and call them out in the open for it. But alot of people are being dumbed down and won't see the real festering problem according to scripture becuz they aren't fed from God's word properly by these leaders.

This is why my sister is saying that those who do see what's actually happening are claiming that this EC movement is so subtle and powerful and sweeping thru mainstream Christianity thru Rick Warren types, that it will fly under the radar of the majority and these will be the false churches in the tribulation period along w/ the other false religions.

It sounds pretty plausible to me and it's very deceptive to the average person - no wonder we're told to be aware and always on guard - our enemy comes as an angel of light.

I had no idea about Rick Warren...or the Emergent church and what-not...I don't pay a lot of attention to such things.

I did buy a copy of Purpose Driven Life to see what all the hoopla was about...

I read about 2 chapters and put it down...a little nudge from the Holy Spirit told me I had read all I needed to.

The only time I picked up the book again...was to take it off my desk because I didn't want to send the wrong message to anyone who may see it and think I endorsed that ideology.
I had no idea either - over the recent years he's gotten pretty blatant about things.

My mom bought me the PDL book and I read the first chapter and had no interest or "spark" either. I wasn't moved any or led to continue. I have never read it and I can safely say I never will.

[Zecryphon]

I had forgotten about that, that was one of the things my sister had told me about too. She has alot of info on that.
This is what I mean, all I see happening is the end times prophecy of a one world religion being pushed under the guise of "fixing things" for peace.
IS THAT THE CHRISTIAN'S POSITION according to end times? No, it's Satan's agenda, not ours.

Christians should have a serious problem with this and call them out in the open for it. But alot of people are being dumbed down and won't see the real festering problem according to scripture becuz they aren't fed from God's word properly by these leaders.

This is why my sister is saying that those who do see what's actually happening are claiming that this EC movement is so subtle and powerful and sweeping thru mainstream Christianity thru Rick Warren types, that it will fly under the radar of the majority and these will be the false churches in the tribulation period along w/ the other false religions.

It sounds pretty plausible to me and it's very deceptive to the average person - no wonder we're told to be aware and always on guard - our enemy comes as an angel of light.


I had no idea either - over the recent years he's gotten pretty blatant about things.

My mom bought me the PDL book and I read the first chapter and had no interest or "spark" either. I wasn't moved any or led to continue. I have never read it and I can safely say I never will.
You guys should really read the PDL book, because it's just so full of evidence against Rick Warren. Almost every "end of day" question for reflection on your "purpose" focuses on you and not on God. I unfortunately, have to read the book again, because this garbage is trying to be forced upon the LCMS by our current synod president. The best way to defeat the enemy, any enemy is to know their playbook and their arguments.

[Nadiine]

Lol, that is about it.

Feel good Christianity will always appeal to those that want to make Christianity out to be what they want it to be instead of the example The Lord Jesus gave us.
This prompts the question, which Jesus are they actually following and are they genuine Christians?

Many of these types will attack you when you witness the truth of scripture; claiming that's not the JesuS... or the God they know...
one does wonder which God/god those who are fed this stuff (AND LIKE IT), actually serve. For the most part, we agree on the name, but not the person when any detail is discussed.

Is. 30:9-11
9 That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10 Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11 Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us.”

[Nadiine]

You guys should really read the PDL book, because it's just so full of evidence against Rick Warren. Almost every "end of day" question for reflection on your "purpose" focuses on you and not on God. I unfortunately, have to read the book again, because this garbage is trying to be forced upon the LCMS by our current synod president. The best way to defeat the enemy, any enemy is to know their playbook and their arguments.
So it's coming to you too then? This was my sister's deep concern; how many solid, evangelical churches this crap is starting to creep into thru their books.

Slap "Christian" on it and they seem to take it in. My mom's Baptist church had the adult Sunday School class do a whole study on it for a season.
It's being fed to Christians and I think this is why we're seeing the problems.

It's very deceiving if you don't know what to look for - and sometimes, even when you do know truth & doctrine.
Maybe I will read it; but it will be with different eyes. (open eyes) - and with the hindsight of his world interfaith projects to bring all religions together to "fix" the world's problems.
How can anyone not see a red flag on that if they know some prophecy?

[Cris413]

One of my biggest objections to this movement is the way they're altering scripture interpretation to support modern society as it changes, instead of using scripture to change a fallen society.

Ecc 1:9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.


Ecclesiastes what a wonderful study…

There is nothing new under the sun…from generation to generation…the packaging might change a bit…however the contents pretty much remains the same. Sin is sin regardless of what PC terms we choose use and our righteousness is but filthy rags in the eyes of Holy God without the covering of the Blood of The Lamb

One of the most awesome aspects of Scripture IMHO…is the word of God is alive and active and still…. thousands of years later…very applicable to today.

The wrappings…or should I say trappings of the world might come in different packages…but there is nothing new under the sun…

The Word never changes.

One of the things I find quite concerning is that there are many…way too many…who consider Jesus Christ is a “get of hell free” card. Or that the Gospel Message is used as a Band-Aid to cover all of life’s woes and concerns…and that somehow…it’s not palatable unless we sugar coat it with words people are more “comfortable” digesting.

[ARBITER01]

This prompts the question, which Jesus are they actually following and are they genuine Christians?

Many of these types will attack you when you witness the truth of scripture; claiming that's not the JesuS... or the God they know...
one does wonder which God/god those who are fed this stuff (AND LIKE IT), actually serve. For the most part, we agree on the name, but not the person when any detail is discussed.

Is. 30:9-11
9 That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10 Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11 Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us.”




If the standard was the works that Jesus did, which were in power, there would be a lot less of this feel good Christianity around. People have become comfortable accepting their form of godliness.

Also, if true believers walking in power were to be less talkative all the time and more about just obeying The Holy Spirit so GOD could manifest HIS power, the works would speak for themselves.

[Zecryphon]

Nadiine,the Purpose Driven Life and all that other feel good nonsense is trying to infiltrate the LCMS through a program called Ablaze!. You can reaf more about Ablaze! at: www.lcms.org (http://www.lcms.org) and type in Ablaze! The synod president is out of touch with what confessional Lutherans are all about. The cancellation of Issues,Etc. and the firing of both Todd Wilken and Jeff Schwartz is just the most recent power driven blunder on his part. I didn't leave the ND church and all this Purpose Driven nonsense just to have it follow me to the LCMS like the plague it is.

It is unfair to say the PDL, is the only problem for Bible Believing Christians. There are many other feel-good threats under the sun too. Rob Bell, who is a rising star in the EC, has published a Bible study program called Nooma, that is a theological nightmare. Add to that his book Sex God that's packing in the college crowds and 30-somethings, with it's blatant Pagan teachings and you have an even bigger threat than Rick Warren. One thing Bell states in Sex God, is that we connect to God through sex. That by connecting to God in this way we become co-creators of the universe and organize the remaining chaos. We actually finish God's work for him. That's Paganism. But oh how the weak and unlearned Christians eat this garbage up. I can't blame them though. If this stuff is being taught in Churches by pastors, what are people supposed to think?

People trust their pastors to teach them the truth so they don't have to learn it on their own when they're not at church. If people would just read and study their Bibles, during the week, even if it's just 15 minutes a day, they'd realize that what they're being fed is not the gospel truth. I blame modern Christian music too. It's so useless and watered-down that there is no gospel truth in it anymore. It has to be that way though. It's the soundtrack for the anti-Christian messages that are creeping into our churches today.

[desmalia]

Does anyone know much about the 50 Day Spiritual Adventure? The Baptist church we've been attending is doing this program right now (on the same night that we have our Bible study, oh darn! lol). All I've been able to find so far is that the leader is associated with contemplative prayer. And from the presentations they do in the service, it seems like the usual watered down crap. But I don't have enough info to really make a judgment call either way.

[Artificial Intelligence]

What view of eschatology does Warren hold, anyway? All I’ve found was some vague mention to a single verse in acts in which he comes to the conclusion that we have like no business concerning ourselves with end-times study. Is he amillennialist or something?

[desmalia]

Ah boy, tried to post several times, but this site is so buggy!What view of eschatology does Warren hold, anyway? All I’ve found was some vague mention to a single verse in acts in which he comes to the conclusion that we have like no business concerning ourselves with end-times study. Is he amillennialist or something?
"Is he amillennialist or something?"^_^ (not that I am specifically, though I don't discredit the view).
While I'd be curious to know what Warren believes re eschatology, I doubt it would affect my concerns about his doctrines in general. True it is a subject worthy of discussion and consideration, but not something to break fellowship about specifically, IMHO.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Oh I know, the reply is broken, actually most links don’t work unless I click them 3 to 12 times. I have two windows open for CF so I can see if my reply made it so I don’t click submit again. Overall participation is down, most people don’t want to deal with it, not that anyone does ;)

No, just trying to get perspective. Much of what he says seems to point to changing the world by one big ‘self-centered’ embrace. Some believe that until the whole world is changed into a form of Christ-centered thinking, only then will the “end” come, which is unlike much of the prophetic writings now being viewed as far from literal. When I say amillennialists, I should specify a form of it, not verbatim, since if he is amillennialists, it is a self-centered change rather than one to a God centered change. Yet his view on eschatology in general is lacking all together from what I’ve researched, being somehow that the prophetic word being irrelevant, yet to us is the hope that is within us as we look for the second coming of Christ. It’s pure motivation and expectancy, giving us real hope in God’s word and work, apart from any self-centered view.

[ARBITER01]

I didn't leave the ND church and all this Purpose Driven nonsense just to have it follow me to the LCMS like the plague it is.

Lol, hellhounds on your trail Zec, hellhounds on your trail ^_^

[Artificial Intelligence]

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-07-21-rick-warren_x.htm

Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.
"I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."Non-essentials? So strengthening the Mormon church etc.. is a non-essential? Meaning it's cool to do strengthen the Mormon church and no real interest in changing them, ...but then these silly fundies just need ta die like these rebellious Israelites 40 years in the desert? So like 'die fundie die!' but there is a good chance that if the Jew's were in the desert for 40 years right now, he might invite them down and show them how to strengthen their synagogue? Maybe we should just all hold hands and dance around the golden calf heh (j/k).

[Nadiine]

Nadiine,the Purpose Driven Life and all that other feel good nonsense is trying to infiltrate the LCMS through a program called Ablaze!. You can reaf more about Ablaze! at: www.lcms.org (http://www.lcms.org) and type in Ablaze! The synod president is out of touch with what confessional Lutherans are all about. The cancellation of Issues,Etc. and the firing of both Todd Wilken and Jeff Schwartz is just the most recent power driven blunder on his part. I didn't leave the ND church and all this Purpose Driven nonsense just to have it follow me to the LCMS like the plague it is.

It is unfair to say the PDL, is the only problem for Bible Believing Christians. There are many other feel-good threats under the sun too. Rob Bell, who is a rising star in the EC, has published a Bible study program called Nooma, that is a theological nightmare. Add to that his book Sex God that's packing in the college crowds and 30-somethings, with it's blatant Pagan teachings and you have an even bigger threat than Rick Warren. One thing Bell states in Sex God, is that we connect to God through sex. That by connecting to God in this way we become co-creators of the universe and organize the remaining chaos. We actually finish God's work for him. That's Paganism. But oh how the weak and unlearned Christians eat this garbage up. I can't blame them though. If this stuff is being taught in Churches by pastors, what are people supposed to think?

People trust their pastors to teach them the truth so they don't have to learn it on their own when they're not at church. If people would just read and study their Bibles, during the week, even if it's just 15 minutes a day, they'd realize that what they're being fed is not the gospel truth. I blame modern Christian music too. It's so useless and watered-down that there is no gospel truth in it anymore. It has to be that way though. It's the soundtrack for the anti-Christian messages that are creeping into our churches today.
First off, you're absolutely right, Warren is "chump change" compared to the other names of EC leaders.
Yes, Bell is one of them, McLaren seems to be the biggy on the list.

And yes, their teachings are plain paganism.

I'd like to mention something tho, the reason people follow it is becuz they either ARE NOT GENUINE CHRISTIANS, or they're being decieved and need deliverance and revelation by God to turn them around.

One of my favorite passages I've used here alot, but it only shows that people eat this crap up becuz they WANT IT TO BE TRUE. They exchange truth for these lies and they don't want true doctrinal teachings.
It's basically rejecting God to make gods for themselves.
(idolatry)

Is. 30:
9 That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10 Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11 Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us.”

[Zecryphon]

First off, you're absolutely right, Warren is "chump change" compared to the other names of EC leaders.
Yes, Bell is one of them, McLaren seems to be the biggy on the list.

And yes, their teachings are plain paganism.

I'd like to mention something tho, the reason people follow it is becuz they either ARE NOT GENUINE CHRISTIANS, or they're being decieved and need deliverance and revelation by God to turn them around.

One of my favorite passages I've used here alot, but it only shows that people eat this crap up becuz they WANT IT TO BE TRUE. They exchange truth for these lies and they don't want true doctrinal teachings.
It's basically rejecting God to make gods for themselves.
(idolatry)

Is. 30:
9 That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10 Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11 Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us.”

We can't say that the reason Christians follow this stuff is cuz they're not really Christians. A really new Christian is a Christian, they're just uneducated about what Christianity teaches, confesses and believes. The need to read their Bibles daily and act as Bereans, comparing everything they hear, whether it be from the pulpit on Sunday mornings to what they read from the local bookstore. They need to be taught how to read their Bibles too. This is the job the church needs to be doing. Pastors need to be tending to and feeding their flock instead of just mindlessly acquiring new sheep to add to the existing flock that's currently starving.

[ARBITER01]

I'd like to mention something tho, the reason people follow it is becuz they either ARE NOT GENUINE CHRISTIANS, or they're being decieved and need deliverance and revelation by God to turn them around.

Something is wrong somewhere in this situation. How can a believer in the middle of such things just ignore the prompting of The Holy Spirit?

GOD is actively involved in conforming us to the image of Jesus, so HE is not going to allow us to just waste a bunch of time in such environments.

[Nadiine]

We can't say that the reason Christians follow this stuff is cuz they're not really Christians. A really new Christian is a Christian, they're just uneducated about what Christianity teaches, confesses and believes. The need to read their Bibles daily and act as Bereans, comparing everything they hear, whether it be from the pulpit on Sunday mornings to what they read from the local bookstore. They need to be taught how to read their Bibles too. This is the job the church needs to be doing. Pastors need to be tending to and feeding their flock instead of just mindlessly acquiring new sheep to add to the existing flock that's currently starving.
Right I agree, but my post gave 2 alternatives; many either aren't actually Christians, or they ARE actually decieved for whatever reasons.
OR, as Isaiah states it, they're in rebellion (saved or lost - I'll let God decide all that).

But as Christians, it's our job to also be in the word and educate ourselves like you mention here about the Bereans.
It seems some (maybe many) would just like to sit in a spiritual stupor (ie. being asleep) and just be fed whatever gets tossed into their mouths.
God calls us to be proactive in our faith and walk. Not blindly walk along 1/2 asleep.
Lot's can be said about that. but it's the responsibility of us to be aware of who we learn from and teachers/leaders to be teaching truth of God.

[Nadiine]

Something is wrong somewhere in this situation. How can a believer in the middle of such things just ignore the prompting of The Holy Spirit?

GOD is actively involved in conforming us to the image of Jesus, so HE is not going to allow us to just waste a bunch of time in such environments.
Well, I think rebellion can set in - started by possible deciet?
Look at the Corinthians - they were called carnal and 'brothers' by Paul (his fellow Christian family). Some were participating in immorality and the others were ignoring their sin.

I think it can be easy to be deceived - it just depends on what it is, Satan's been doing it for thousands of years successfully. Christians aren't exempt imo.

[ARBITER01]

Well, I think rebellion can set in - started by possible deciet?
Look at the Corinthians - they were called carnal and 'brothers' by Paul (his fellow Christian family). Some were participating in immorality and the others were ignoring their sin.

I think it can be easy to be deceived - it just depends on what it is, Satan's been doing it for thousands of years successfully. Christians aren't exempt imo.

Good points. It would have to be rebellion of some sorts to blantantly just be able to ignore the leading of The Holy Spirit inside. When GOD wanted me to come out of a legalistic pentecostal church, the leading from within was quite apparent, and I had no problem obeying, in fact it was a joy to do so.

[Zecryphon]

Lol, hellhounds on your trail Zec, hellhounds on your trail ^_^
I'm beating them with semi-frozen Lutefisks as I run. Not an easy task I assure you. LOL

[Zecryphon]

Right I agree, but my post gave 2 alternatives; many either aren't actually Christians, or they ARE actually decieved for whatever reasons.
OR, as Isaiah states it, they're in rebellion (saved or lost - I'll let God decide all that).

But as Christians, it's our job to also be in the word and educate ourselves like you mention here about the Bereans.
It seems some (maybe many) would just like to sit in a spiritual stupor (ie. being asleep) and just be fed whatever gets tossed into their mouths.
God calls us to be proactive in our faith and walk. Not blindly walk along 1/2 asleep.
Lot's can be said about that. but it's the responsibility of us to be aware of who we learn from and teachers/leaders to be teaching truth of God.
Well my point was that being a Christian is about having your sins forgiven by the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Whether or not someone buys into the Purpose Driven Life does not affect their salvation. We don't know who is and who is not saved. It seems to be that if we find someone promoting something non-Biblical we accuse them of not being a Christian. It happens all too frequently.

I know of two people on this board that I can emphatically say are not Christians. I have based that upon their denial of the central tenets of Christianity. Denial of things like: Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. Jesus' work on the cross paid for our sins. Denial of Jesus' resurrection. A person denied all of the above and still believes they are a Christian. In my view if you're denying these truths you are NOT and can NOT be a Christian.

We have to be careful about throwing around that accusation of "you're not a Christian because and fill in the blank here" because if we do that, we are basically creating an idol to be worshipped and if people don't worship the same idol we do, they're not Christians. Not according to what the Bible says, but according to what we say. This too is a slippery slope.

[IamRedeemed]

Eggthackly. Call evil good and good evil and repeat as necessary. That is how the enemy deceives. At one point I am sure Rick Warren was one of the deceived, but now he teaches the deception and is therefore now a deceiver.

And amen, I am with you on that front line standing against the morphism of the sound doctrine of God.

Another poster said something like, "some Christians don't want to get out of their "comfort zones" as a reason for why some of us to do not accept doctrines such as those taught by Rick Warren as well as the ones being taught in the emergent Church.

To that I say, I will move as the Spirit leads, which very often is out of my comfort zone, however the Holy Spirit NEVER seeks to move me off of or away from the solid rock of our salvation! I can tell you that!

Any that come to you preaching another gospel, laying another foundation is the same as a thief and a liar.

Paul warns us in Galatians 1:6-8

I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Paul warns us also in 2 Corinthians 11:2-4

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him.


In other words, Paul is saying, I am concerned about you. These teachers are crafty and so subtle in what they do and how they do it, that if they come in preaching and teaching "new things" you might rather than boot them out from among you, for the sake of unity and interest, may put up with it, allowing others to be deceived and in the process being yourselves deceived.



If these things we are to be aware of weren't subtle and craftily filtered and delivered we would have no need to be warned to be warned in such a way.




I agree with your post Ai. I think it's sad that Warren did the typical misapplication of the term fundamentalist. He did what society has been doing, redefining terms.

Instead of fighting it, he throws them all under the bus. Well, no wonder tho, they're the types that spot the falsity and call it out of the closets.
So, he needs to attack as he has.

I have to say again, that I never used to join in with the 'attack Rick Warren' discussions in the past becuz I felt they were somewhat legalistic against him just becuz he got popular. Just becoming another target for prudish Christians to go after.

But after hearing my sister's research on this subject for the past 6 months, it's really opened my eyes to how widespread this has become within mainstream evangelical churches.

Due to that, I'll absolutely go on the attack of Rick Warren for what he's trying to morph God's church into and I believe it directly fits in with the end times prophecys about people falling away from the faith and if it was possible, the elect being decieved becuz it will be so powerful and strong.

They use enough truth and enough "Christian lingo" to get people hooked, but lead them towards global religion and world peace.... while attacking the 'fundamental church' who's trying to warn God's people of false doctrines

[IamRedeemed]

Semi-frozen....ewe....:sick: ^_^^_^^_^

I'm beating them with semi-frozen Lutefisks as I run. Not an easy task I assure you. LOL

[IamRedeemed]

Although it is true, we cannot say that just because one who does not condemn a false teacher,
or is being deceived by one, is not saved, we also have to be careful the other way and that is to make sure that we speak the truth about the false teachings and let those who have bought into the lie test themselves and see if they be of the faith as the Word says. The same faith that was preached by
Paul and the other Apostles as well as through the mouth of Jesus Christ himself.
Our job is to set the candle high on a hill.

We should not walk on eggshells but rather should sound the trumpets as watchmen
on the wall by revealing false doctrine and the deceivers who preach it. :preach:


Well my point was that being a Christian is about having your sins forgiven by the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Whether or not someone buys into the Purpose Driven Life does not affect their salvation. We don't know who is and who is not saved. It seems to be that if we find someone promoting something non-Biblical we accuse them of not being a Christian. It happens all too frequently.

I know of two people on this board that I can emphatically say are not Christians. I have based that upon their denial of the central tenets of Christianity. Denial of things like: Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. Jesus' work on the cross paid for our sins. Denial of Jesus' resurrection. A person denied all of the above and still believes they are a Christian. In my view if you're denying these truths you are NOT and can NOT be a Christian.

We have to be careful about throwing around that accusation of "you're not a Christian because and fill in the blank here" because if we do that, we are basically creating an idol to be worshipped and if people don't worship the same idol we do, they're not Christians. Not according to what the Bible says, but according to what we say. This too is a slippery slope.

[IamRedeemed]

I don't know, but I can tell you that ANYONE who preaches that and is not
mindful of the hour is preaching the opposite of what Jesus
(as well as Paul and the other Apostles) told us to do.

What view of eschatology does Warren hold, anyway? All I’ve found was some vague mention to a single verse in acts in which he comes to the conclusion that we have like no business concerning ourselves with end-times study. Is he amillennialist or something?

[Nadiine]

What view of eschatology does Warren hold, anyway? All I’ve found was some vague mention to a single verse in acts in which he comes to the conclusion that we have like no business concerning ourselves with end-times study. Is he amillennialist or something?
I missed this post (probly cuz I did a few log outs) --

But one thing I would note on eschatology is, I hold a different view of eschatology than a pentacostal friend of mine, but she's spot on in her other doctrine -central doctrine-.
We do disagree on OSAS, women preaching and some eschatology details... but that doesn't always help shape a person's worldview on scripture entirely.

Another one I'd note is Dr. RC Sproul - a mentor of mine.
He's a partial preterist but his other doctrine is very good... give or take 1 thing here or there.

But I would be interested to know that; you probly asked it due to how him fitting in with the end times prophecy's (ie. promoting the antichrist verses).
:eek:

[Izdaari]

Well my point was that being a Christian is about having your sins forgiven by the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Whether or not someone buys into the Purpose Driven Life does not affect their salvation. We don't know who is and who is not saved. It seems to be that if we find someone promoting something non-Biblical we accuse them of not being a Christian. It happens all too frequently.

I know of two people on this board that I can emphatically say are not Christians. I have based that upon their denial of the central tenets of Christianity. Denial of things like: Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. Jesus' work on the cross paid for our sins. Denial of Jesus' resurrection. A person denied all of the above and still believes they are a Christian. In my view if you're denying these truths you are NOT and can NOT be a Christian.

We have to be careful about throwing around that accusation of "you're not a Christian because and fill in the blank here" because if we do that, we are basically creating an idol to be worshipped and if people don't worship the same idol we do, they're not Christians. Not according to what the Bible says, but according to what we say. This too is a slippery slope.
Right on, brother! :amen:

[Izdaari]

Good points. It would have to be rebellion of some sorts to blantantly just be able to ignore the leading of The Holy Spirit inside. When GOD wanted me to come out of a legalistic pentecostal church, the leading from within was quite apparent, and I had no problem obeying, in fact it was a joy to do so.
Uh huh. I've been in places where the "This is not a good place. You should leave now." message was very clear. And it hasn't always been in the places where one might expect it...

[ARBITER01]

Uh huh. I've been in places where the "This is not a good place. You should leave now." message was very clear. And it hasn't always been in the places where one might expect it...

We have to follow the cloud unless we want to dry out. Even in the church I'm currently in, if GOD wanted me to move I would. I don't think HE will for now, but I've learned the joy of that sort of obediance.

[Izdaari]

What view of eschatology does Warren hold, anyway? All I’ve found was some vague mention to a single verse in acts in which he comes to the conclusion that we have like no business concerning ourselves with end-times study. Is he amillennialist or something?
I don't know much about Rick Warren, but I'd guess he's like me, a pan-millennialist. That is, trust in the Lord and it will all pan out! :clap:

Seriously, the more I study eschatology, the more it confuses me. Jesus will come when He comes, and He said no one knows when. Our part is simply to be ready. We ought to know the prophecies, so when prophesied things happen we'll recognize them. But I don't think that means we have to subscribe to a particular theory.

[Athene]

What's so wrong with the Purpose Driven Life, I've never read it but looking at the blurb it seems to be about living ones life in accordance to the will of God . . . that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

[Zecryphon]

What's so wrong with the Purpose Driven Life, I've never read it but looking at the blurb it seems to be about living ones life in accordance to the will of God . . . that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

What's so wrong with the Purpose Driven Life, I've never read it but looking at the blurb it seems to be about living ones life in accordance to the will of God . . . that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.


The first line of the book is good. If I recall correctly it's "It's not about you." But then Rick Warren spends the next 300 pages of the book telling you all the things you must do in order to find your purpose and "live for God." The whole focus of the book is on you, not God. The changes in your life, if there are any, come from you looking inside yourself to see what you need to change.

[IamRedeemed]

Hi and thanks for asking.
It has New Age/Occult philosophy and practice woven all through it.

Remember, satan isn't going to appear with his fangs sticking out,
he is going to appear as an angel of light. Such is deception.
So at first glance from a distance, who wouldn't think it was harmless?

It is upon closer inspection that the truth within the pages is revealed.

What's so wrong with the Purpose Driven Life, I've never read it but looking at the blurb it seems to be about living ones life in accordance to the will of God . . . that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

[Artificial Intelligence]

I don't know much about Rick Warren, but I'd guess he's like me, a pan-millennialist. That is, trust in the Lord and it will all pan out! :clap:But his focus isn’t on that, but on “self“. Well I just chock it up to uninformed, it could change his message if he were to really get into God’s prophetic word, which would hurt book sales and speaking engagements.

Seriously, the more I study eschatology, the more it confuses me. Jesus will come when He comes, and He said no one knows when. Our part is simply to be ready. We ought to know the prophecies, so when prophesied things happen we'll recognize them. But I don't think that means we have to subscribe to a particular theory.Actually He does. In fact He says we are to know, that it was those outside of Christ that do not know. So we the Church are to look up when we see the day approaching, because we do know, or are suppose to know when that day is approaching. It’s confusing because you may be looking to the wrong interpreters, as I once did. The fulfillment of last days prophecy has already started, and is being fulfilled, though those of the events preceding the tribulation at this point, which has not yet started.

[Nadiine]

Hi and thanks for asking.
It has New Age/Occult philosophy and practice woven all through it.

Remember, satan isn't going to appear with his fangs sticking out,
he is going to appear as an angel of light. Such is deception.
So at first glance from a distance, who wouldn't think it was harmless?

It is upon closer inspection that the truth within the pages is revealed.

This is how deception works - exactly.

You don't decieve people with whacked out teachings that are brand new concepts... you mingle the false with the truth to make it sound biblical and Christian... then insert the lies.
This is how Satan has always done it - even with Jesus. The minute preachers use some scripture, people think "oh, he must be godly"... not so.

The Bible warns us repeatedly that the false come FROM WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST - they're wolves who are already inside the church doing their destructive work. Read Paul's warning before he leaves for his mission:
Acts 20
29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

The people who are asleep (or worse, part of the wolves who aren't even aware of their decayed spiritual condition) won't see it coming & will be swept away. That's how it works.

It's one thing to be ignorant, it's quite another to be warned and given proof and continue to reject that evidence shown.

[Cris413]

Absolutely Nadiine,


Mar 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

These verses speak on several levels.

CON men - confidence men. They don't just stick a gun in your face and take all your money....that's pretty obvious...

No...con men spend quite a bit of time gaining your confidence....

They start by telling you lies...things you want to hear...and when you think their fabulous and they've gained your confidence...they rob you of everything they can...

The real scary thing is...many of these religious con men...don't even know what they are doing is wrong...because they've been conned themselves...by the great deceiver....

[Nadiine]

Absolutely Nadiine,


Mar 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

These verses speak on several levels.

CON men - confidence men. They don't just stick a gun in your face and take all your money....that's pretty obvious...

No...con men spend quite a bit of time gaining your confidence....

They start by telling you lies...things you want to hear...and when you think their fabulous and they've gained your confidence...they rob you of everything they can...

The real scary thing is...many of these religious con men...don't even know what they are doing is wrong...because they've been conned themselves...by the great deceiver....
:amen:
I've often wondered about the wolves... how many of them KNOW they're decieved & are out working against God purposefully? & how many of them think that they're right on track spiritually and are truly thinking that they're doing God a service by false teaching that they don't even know is a lie from Satan?

:scratch: :confused: :confused:

[Cris413]

:amen:
I've often wondered about the wolves... how many of them KNOW they're decieved & are out working against God purposefully? & how many of them think that they're right on track spiritually and are truly thinking that they're doing God a service by false teaching that they don't even know is a lie from Satan?

:scratch: :confused: :confused:
I would imagine MOST of them.

Like Pastor Bob has said many times...there are spiritual strings attached to everything...the enemy is "father" of ALL lies.

I believe this is why pastor/teachers are held to a higher accountability...they have the ears of many...

another verse that IMHO has multiple layers...

Mat 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:

"I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.

If the enemy can get his hooks into leaders...those that have the ears and eyes of many...the sheep are divided (scattered) and very easy pickings.

Same with the onslaught toward the assembling of believers...lone sheep are vulnarable sheep....sheep without a good shepherd...

If the enemy can draw the sheep away from strong leadership and good food...and lead them to the EC where they will get fed a heapin' helpin' of fluff...that is not only easy to chew but also keeps their eyes on themselves rather than on the Lord....:swoon:

Jer 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the LORD.
Jer 23:3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Jer 23:4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking," says the LORD.
Jer 23:5 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD,
"That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

I understand this is speaking to Israel...however...the lesson is applicable to all of us...

All praise and honor and glory to the King of Kings!

[Nadiine]

I agree Cris. Absolutely. Sobering too, I think God rebukes the Shepherds in Ezekiel too if I remember right? :scratch:

The verse in James 3 comes to mind
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Then we have to remember that in the end times, the false teachings are prophecied to grow and decieve more and more people.

I just see this as ultimately fulfilling prophecy that has to come before Christ returns.

[Cris413]

I agree Cris. Absolutely. Sobering too, I think God rebukes the Shepherds in Ezekiel too if I remember right? :scratch:

The verse in James 3 comes to mind
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Then we have to remember that in the end times, the false teachings are prophecied to grow and decieve more and more people.

I just see this as ultimately fulfilling prophecy that has to come before Christ returns.

Yep...and praise God...we know how the story ends!

:amen:

This, however, does not mean we should not do our parts...as willing useful vessels for His glory and honor and praise!

:amen:

[IamRedeemed]

Exactly! You both make very good points!
:amen: Sisters.


This is how deception works - exactly.

You don't decieve people with whacked out teachings that are brand new concepts... you mingle the false with the truth to make it sound biblical and Christian... then insert the lies.
This is how Satan has always done it - even with Jesus. The minute preachers use some scripture, people think "oh, he must be godly"... not so.

The Bible warns us repeatedly that the false come FROM WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST - they're wolves who are already inside the church doing their destructive work. Read Paul's warning before he leaves for his mission:
Acts 20
29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

The people who are asleep (or worse, part of the wolves who aren't even aware of their decayed spiritual condition) won't see it coming & will be swept away. That's how it works.

It's one thing to be ignorant, it's quite another to be warned and given proof and continue to reject that evidence shown.

Absolutely Nadiine,


Mar 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

These verses speak on several levels.

CON men - confidence men. They don't just stick a gun in your face and take all your money....that's pretty obvious...

No...con men spend quite a bit of time gaining your confidence....

They start by telling you lies...things you want to hear...and when you think their fabulous and they've gained your confidence...they rob you of everything they can...

The real scary thing is...many of these religious con men...don't even know what they are doing is wrong...because they've been conned themselves...by the great deceiver....

[IamRedeemed]

....and :amen: again! :preach:

:sorry: I tried to rep, but I get none until later!
But I won't forget!http://www.freepowerboards.com/sotc/users/6333/smilies/superman.gif

I agree Cris. Absolutely. Sobering too, I think God rebukes the Shepherds in Ezekiel too if I remember right? :scratch:

The verse in James 3 comes to mind
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Then we have to remember that in the end times, the false teachings are prophecied to grow and decieve more and more people.

I just see this as ultimately fulfilling prophecy that has to come before Christ returns.

Yep...and praise God...we know how the story ends!



This, however, does not mean we should not do our parts...as willing useful vessels for His glory and honor and praise!