Question on Relation

[ElsanRandiMom]

How do the traditional Jews relate to Messianics?

I know there are some condemning Christians who claim the Jews are not "saved" etc... and assign a certain "outcome" to their lives...

And some Christians say Messianics are living under a law that was abolished...

Neither of these ideas are something I subscribe to but they do lead me to ask...

What do Jews think of Messianics? How does your "change" relate to your prior beliefs? Is there some "penalty" for believing in what I assume they believe is the "wrong Messiah"?

Just wondering (have no clue)

[HaReb]

The really stupid thing about Christians saying the law is abolished is that by their own argument, so is the grace they say has replaced the law!

Grace is given only for those times you transgress the law and seriously repent - the law convicts you of the sin (makes you aware of the sin). Therefore it necessarily follows that if there is no law to convict you, there is no need for G_d's grace for you to be forgiven!

It is just so logical but hasatan has blinded them to this simple factual truth.

[ElsanRandiMom]

The really stupid thing about Christians saysing the law is abolished is that by their own argument, so is the grace that say has replaced the law!

Grace is given only for those times you transgress the law and seriously repent - the law convicts you of the sin (makes you aware of the sin). Therefore it necessarily follows that if there is no law to convict you, there is no need for G_d's grace for you to be forgiven!

It is just so logical but hasatan has blinded them to this simple factual truth.
i know i know... but that was just an example

I want to know what the Jewish perspective of all this is...

[Talmidah]

Were you wanting Jews to respond with their perspective or did you want Messianics to reply with what they think the Jewish perspective is?

[ElsanRandiMom]

Were you wanting Jews to respond with their perspective or did you want Messianics to reply with what they think the Jewish perspective is?
either or. I didn't ask in the NC area because I don't want alot of people who don't have a clue butting in to the thread just to cause trouble.

[Kris10leigh]

Were you wanting Jews to respond with their perspective or did you want Messianics to reply with what they think the Jewish perspective is?
I think this was asked because sometimes i'st difficult to discern who should answer what questions. It's been an issue lately.

I think ElsanRandimom would like to hear from Jews AND Messianic JEWS, but probably not gentiles who have no clue. ^_^ Therefore, since I fall into the latter category, I will be reading. ;)

[ElsanRandiMom]

I think this was asked because sometimes i'st difficult to discern who should answer what questions. It's been an issue lately.

I think ElsanRandimom would like to hear from Jews AND Messianic JEWS, but probably not gentiles who have no clue. ^_^ Therefore, since I fall into the latter category, I will be reading. ;)
from this gentile who has no clue... exactly :)

[ChavaK]

Despite your reservations, I would think this question
should be posed at the NCR forum.

First, I do not believe we can answer the question
according to forum rules.

Second, none of us wishes to cause ill feelings or
cause strife here.
It is better discussed elsewhere...

:wave:

[christianmomof3]

I will answer, having been raised Jewish.
My intent is not to offend the Messianics, but to give the perspective of the Jewish people.
I have been griped at for posting an anti-missionary site here before, but it best answers this question.
Rather than post a link, you can look at a site called Jews for Judaism.
Many Jews think that Messianics are all the same as Jews for Jesus and are a group that pretends to be Jewish in order to deceive the Jewish people and convert them to Christianity.
They do not consider Messianics to be Jews and are offended by the Messianic Jewish movement.

I personally feel that the Messianics are my brothers and sisters in Christ who love the Jewish people.

Now, that is about the Messianic Jewish religion.

As far as people like me - Jews who are now born again Christians - the rest of the Jews think we are wrong.

[ElsanRandiMom]

I will answer, having been raised Jewish.
My intent is not to offend the Messianics, but to give the perspective of the Jewish people.
I have been griped at for posting an anti-missionary site here before, but it best answers this question.
Rather than post a link, you can look at a site called Jews for Judaism.
Many Jews think that Messianics are all the same as Jews for Jesus and are a group that pretends to be Jewish in order to deceive the Jewish people and convert them to Christianity.
They do not consider Messianics to be Jews and are offended by the Messianic Jewish movement.

I personally feel that the Messianics are my brothers and sisters in Christ who love the Jewish people.

Now, that is about the Messianic Jewish religion.

As far as people like me - Jews who are now born again Christians - the rest of the Jews think we are wrong.
but what are the religious "side effects" of being wrong (worshiping what they consider to be an incorrect messiah) in Judaism?

[ChavaK]

but what are the religious "side effects" of being wrong (worshiping what they consider to be an incorrect messiah) in Judaism?

The messiah is never to be worshiped from a Jewish POV.
However, if a born Jew follows a false messiah who he
considers only a man, who was not here to redeem us from
sin, who is not divine, who is not part of a trinity....we
consider him misguided as long as he is not worshipping
said messiah.

In an interesting aside, recently in Israel a bet din refused
to finalize the gerus of someone who was studying with
Chabad. The potential convert stated to the bet din that
he believed the Rebbe was moshiach; that was enough
to disqualify him from conversion. He did not believe
that the Rebbe was divine; only that he was moshiach.
So this applies to moshiachs other than the Christian one...

If a born Jew worships or believes any of the traditional
Christian beliefs concerning the messiah (trinity/divinity/
personal salvation) he is considered an apostate. He
looses all his rights regarding the Jewish community
(no shul membership, no burials, weddings, no longer
counts towards a minyon, can't be called to the Torah-
I think you get my drift :) ).
He also will, from a Jewish POV, be severely judged
by HaShem for being involved with avodah zara
and breaking Torah.

Mods, I hope it is okay to answer said question...
after all the question is being asked about the
Jewish "side effects" of following a false messiah. If not,
perhaps this can be moved to the debate section?

[ElsanRandiMom]

The messiah is never to be worshiped from a Jewish POV.
However, if a born Jew follows a false messiah who he
considers only a man, who was not here to redeem us from
sin, who is not divine, who is not part of a trinity....we
consider him misguided as long as he is not worshipping
said messiah.

If a born Jew worships or believes any of the traditional
Christian beliefs concerning the messiah (trinity/divinity/
personal salvation) he is considered an apostate. He
looses all his rights regarding the Jewish community
(no shul membership, no burials, weddings, no longer
counts towards a minyon, can't be called to the Torah-
I think you get my drift :) ).
He also will, from a Jewish POV, be severely judged
by HaShem for being involved with avodah zara
and breaking Torah.

Mods, I hope it is okay to answer said question...
after all the question is being asked about the
Jewish "side effects" of following a false messiah. If not,
perhaps this can be moved to the debate section?
I don't take this as you doing anything but answering my question (I do not believe you are trying to convert me in other words).

Just stating this for the benefit of anyone who would be concenred.

[ChavaK]

I don't take this as you doing anything but answering my question (I do not believe you are trying to convert me in other words).

Just stating this for the benefit of anyone who would be concenred.


Unfortunately with so many people having "itchy trigger fingers"
to report posts, one who is not a Christian has to be careful
how they word things and respond to posts....:(

[ElsanRandiMom]

Unfortunately with so many people having "itchy trigger fingers"
to report posts, one who is not a Christian has to be careful
how they word things and respond to posts....:(
well, if it is anything to you... not sure if it will be... I feel that you and your brothers are equally my brothers under HaShem. Why would I condemn my brothers? Why would anyone but for fear and intolerance? (but again, this is just me)

[kivi]

You have asked what Jews think of the 'Messianic effort'. What I am going to tell you is not pleasant so I hope you will keep an open mind. But I am telling you the truth ab out how Jews think on the matter. If you are interested in more information, Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism are organizations that lead the way to protect Jews from missionaries.

For the most part, Jews hate the constant attempts of Christians to convert them to Christianity. For the most part, Jews think that 'Messianic congregations' is just a Christian Missionary trick and part of the 2000 year effort of Christianity to destroy Judaism.

In no place in the world does any 'Messianic organization' have a place in the Jewish Community, they are not part of any Jewish Community Center or United Jewish Fund or Organization of Jewish Charities, Hadassah, Jewish Free Loan Association, kosher supervising agency, Bikur Colim, yeshiva or kollel or rabbinical board, etc etc etc. While there are some Jews who are members of 'Messianic' congregations, the vast majority of members of 'Messianic congregations' are not Jews. And, as such, Jews think the entire 'Messianic effort' is a simple matter of identity theft.

Judaism is forbidden to seek converts. There is no requirement to be Jewish to go to heaven: "All of B'nai Israel [the People of Israel, the Jews] and the righteous of the Nations [righteous gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]". If a person wishes to convert to Judaism, Jews are required to actively discourage the potential convert. Only if the potential convert is very persistent, extremely persistent, are they taken in and even then it takes about 3 years for the entire process.

[Kris10leigh]

However, if a born Jew follows a false messiah who he
considers only a man, who was not here to redeem us from
sin, who is not divine, who is not part of a trinity....we
consider him misguided as long as he is not worshipping
said messiah.


Where is it found that Jews believe the promised Messiah is part of a trinity? I didn't know Jews believed that, so I am curious and it may help me figure some things out.

Fascinating discussion here!

[christianmomof3]

kivi explained rather well.
but what are the religious "side effects" of being wrong (worshiping what they consider to be an incorrect messiah) in Judaism?
The concept of Messiah varries within the different groups within Judiaism.
I was raised in Reform Judaism and never heard much about the messiah at all.
My dad told me that he thought the messiah would not be a person, but rather an age of peace.

So the issue is not that of worshipping an incorrect messiah because I don't think any Jewish concepts would include worship of the messiah.
The issue would be that of worshipping anything other than God.
Jews believe that only God is to be worshipped.
They think Christians are praying to a dead Jewish man when they are praying to Jesus.
And that is heretical.
Or, they think that Christians have 3 gods - a father, son and ghost.

That is what I thought when I was growing up.
I came to a point where I was not even sure if God existed, but I knew that if He did there was only One of Him and the Christians worshipped 3 gods and Mary and a whole bunch of dead "Saints", statues, paintings and stains on walls and toast that they thought looked like Jesus or Mary, and I could not see how any intelligent person could have such stupid beliefs. :sorry: (Sorry, just giving the perspective that I had and that some other Jews also have.)(And I still find the whole praying to anything other than God to be wrong - ie saints and Mary.)

Anyway, to the Reform Jewish religion, since I am now a born again Christian and believe that Jesus is God, I am either considered apostate or no longer Jewish. To the other Jews (Conservative and Orthodox - and I hear there is a new group called Reconstructionist but I know very little about them - they sound like a new age agnostic thing - they want the ceremonies but don't beleive in God or something) I am still a Jew, but apostate or wrong.

Culturally and ethnically I am still Jewish.
My uncle asks me if I send my children to synagogue and Hebrew school every time I see him.
He asks if I go to church and then he tells me that I don't have to go.
I tell him that I don't go because I have to, but because I want to.
I stop there because he is old and I don't want to argue with him. I just pray for him.
I actually have several cousins who are also Christians now.
The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[Talmidah]

Where is it found that Jews believe the promised Messiah is part of a trinity? I didn't know Jews believed that, so I am curious and it may help me figure some things out.

Fascinating discussion here! Jews don't believe that.

[Kris10leigh]

Jews don't believe that.

Ok. :scratch: Just basing it off ChavaK's post.

[Talmidah]

Ok. :scratch: Just basing it off ChavaK's post.

She was saying that if you have a Jew who believes a particular person to be the Messiah, but does not believe that this person is divine or part of a trinity and does not worship this person, then the Jew would be considered wrong or misguided. Once he starts to believe any of those things, then he places himself outside of Judaism.

Does that help make her post a little clearer?

[Kris10leigh]

She was saying that if you have a Jew who believes a particular person to be the Messiah, but does not believe that this person is divine or part of a trinity and does not worship this person, then the Jew would be considered wrong or misguided. Once he starts to believe any of those things, then he places himself outside of Judaism.

Does that help make her post a little clearer?
Yes and no. :scratch: Too many "nots" I think.

Oh well. ^_^

[Talmidah]

Yes and no. :scratch: Too many "nots" I think.

Oh well. ^_^

:D Maybe someone else will explain it more clearly. Lack of sleep makes my brain all muddled! :yawn:

[ChavaK]

Where is it found that Jews believe the promised Messiah is part of a trinity? I didn't know Jews believed that, so I am curious and it may help me figure some things out.

Fascinating discussion here!

Sorry for my unclear posts, Jews do not believe in a Trinity.
I was trying to say if a Jew follows a false messiah who they
do not consider to be: divine, part of a trinity, here to redeem
us from sin, or do not worship him...then we consider him
misguided.
Jews have followed false messiahs (there is a lot of them!) for
a long time....normally once the person they believe is
moshiach dies, that's the end of the belief...
:)

[ChavaK]

kd.


My uncle asks me if I send my children to synagogue and Hebrew school every time I see him.
He asks if I go to church and then he tells me that I don't have to go.


As an aside, this is something I find very sad. I am of course making
an assumption that your uncle is secular/Reform.
Secular Jews get very upset when their children/grandchildren
become Christians, Messianics.....but have no one to blame but
themselves because they contributed to this loss to the Jewish
people by not bringing said relatives up as religeous Jews

Cultural Judaism just cannot last long; in my opinion two
or three generations, and they have assimilated/intermarried
away....

[Kris10leigh]

Maybe someone else will explain it more clearly. Lack of sleep makes my brain all muddled!
No not you! ^_^ Ok, ok, I'll type it out and then wait patiently for ChavaK to explain herself. (I feel a bit like I'm picking apart a published piece of wor that has been offered up for critique. I'm not...I'm picking apart dialogue and it makes me feel like I'm somehow talking behind ChavaK's back. But, in the process I'm confusing matters, so out with it already, right?) ^_^

Here's where my brain is going, right or wrong:

Originally Posted by ChavaK http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45708718#post45708718)
However, if a born Jew follows a false messiahI'm reading this from the Christian perspective that IF a Jew follows a man (ie. Jesus) who is considered in Judaeism to be false.

who he
considers only a man, who was not here to redeem us from
sin, who is not divine, who is not part of a trinityI read this to mean if the Jew were following a man whom the Jews consider to be only a man, was not actually here to redeem us, whom the Jews consider to not be divine and whom the Jews consider not to be part of a trinity. To me that is saying that the Jews are waiting for a Messiah who IS more than a man, who IS here to redeem us, who IS diving and who IS part of a trinity.
....we
consider him misguided as long as he is not worshipping
said messiah. The "not" in this sentence throws me.

Sorry, ChavaK! :sorry:

[Kris10leigh]

:doh:Add to the thread two people posting at the same time and we have a real mess! ^_^

[Talmidah]

Basically, as long as the Jew doesn't think the man is anything more than a human messiah and doesn't worship him, he is simply misguided. The problem comes when the Jew believes that the man is divine, part of a trinity, etc and/or starts worshipping him. He is then guilty of avoda zara.

[Kris10leigh]

Basically, as long as the Jew doesn't think the man is anything more than a human messiah and doesn't worship him, he is simply misguided. The problem comes when the Jew believes that the man is divine, part of a trinity, etc and/or starts worshipping him. He is then guilty of avoda zara.

Oh! :idea: Lightbulbs flashing in my head.

Thanks! :blush: Sometimes I wonder why my brain goes the direction it goes. :sigh:

[christianmomof3]

As an aside, this is something I find very sad. I am of course making
an assumption that your uncle is secular/Reform.
Secular Jews get very upset when their children/grandchildren
become Christians, Messianics.....but have no one to blame but
themselves because they contributed to this loss to the Jewish
people by not bringing said relatives up as religeous Jews

Cultural Judaism just cannot last long; in my opinion two
or three generations, and they have assimilated/intermarried
away....
My uncle is from Poland and escaped from a concentration camp when he was 12. His mother and 5 brothers including him of the 13 brothers and sisters in his family survived and made it to the USA.
I think some of his brothers attended either Orthodox or Conservative synagogues because I know I went to those for family events and my uncle goes to the Reform one because that is where my aunt goes.

Despite the "cultualness" if that is a word - of his Judaism, I think that he helped me to believe in God. I remember when I was 12 and one of his grandsons was born and my uncle held up the baby and showed him to me and said something like "Look at how perfect this beautiful baby is. How can anyone look at this and not believe that God exists? Only God could make something this perfect."
Anyway, that made me think and stuck with me all of my life and I still remember it. Even when I was in college and took classes in sociology and anthropology and philosophy and psychology and thought that perhaps man created the concept of god rather than God creating man, I think that my uncle's words stayed with me and somehow I knew that creation is too perfect to be an accident.

[ChavaK]

My uncle is from Poland and escaped from a concentration camp when he was 12. His mother and 5 brothers including him of the 13 brothers and sisters in his family survived and made it to the USA.
I think some of his brothers attended either Orthodox or Conservative synagogues because I know I went to those for family events and my uncle goes to the Reform one because that is where my aunt goes.

Despite the "cultualness" if that is a word - of his Judaism, I think that he helped me to believe in God. I remember when I was 12 and one of his grandsons was born and my uncle held up the baby and showed him to me and said something like "Look at how perfect this beautiful baby is. How can anyone look at this and not believe that God exists? Only God could make something this perfect."
Anyway, that made me think and stuck with me all of my life and I still remember it. Even when I was in college and took classes in sociology and anthropology and philosophy and psychology and thought that perhaps man created the concept of god rather than God creating man, I think that my uncle's words stayed with me and somehow I knew that creation is too perfect to be an accident.
He sounds like a very wonderful man!

[kivi]

He sounds like a very wonderful man!
The position of messiah is a performance based job. 1st, the potential messiah must be worthy in Torah learning, personal piety and exceptional community service. Every generation has at least one Jew who is so worthy. 2nd, the problem is whether the generation that the potential messiah is part of is worthy of him. Until now, that generation has yet to appear. Therefore, no messiah.



What the Messiah=Moshiach will do and how he can be recognized.


He will be of the House of David (Ezekiel 37:24).

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
(Isaiah 11:12).

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's
commandments (Ezekiel 37:24).

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve
one G-d (Isaiah 66:23).

All the Jews, living in Israel, and observant (even the former Christians will
return to Judaism); a new Temple, world-wide peace, no wars, no scuffles,
and all the people, all 6+ billion of them, former Muslims, Christians,
Buddhists, atheists, etc., will finally believe in HaShem and serve only
Him. When all this becomes true, will it not be obvious to the world?

All these prophecies are also put together in one place:

Ezekiel 37:24-28:

"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one
shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and
do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my
servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they
and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant
David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of
peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will
give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst
of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be
their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am
the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of
them forevermore."

All the people of the world will know Who is God, and will serve Him, and
they will know without a doubt who His people are and who the messiah is.

The point that Judaism is making here is that when Moshiach comes it will be an earth shaking event, no conversion efforts will be necessary, there will be no doubts, confusion or questions. Like at the Yom Suf [the sea where the Egyptian army was destroyed], it will be obvious to all. When the Yom Suf split so did all of the other 'waters' in the world. Everybody in the world knew that the Egyptians were defeated and that G-d was G-d. They only had to look into their drinking cup or the stream just outside their window to see that the 'waters' had split. So it will be with Moshiach. Everybody in the world will know.

[stone]

The really stupid thing about Christians saying the law is abolished is that by their own argument, so is the grace they say has replaced the law!

Grace is given only for those times you transgress the law and seriously repent - the law convicts you of the sin (makes you aware of the sin). Therefore it necessarily follows that if there is no law to convict you, there is no need for G_d's grace for you to be forgiven!

It is just so logical but hasatan has blinded them to this simple factual truth.

how do you define grace?

[stone]

How do the traditional Jews relate to Messianics?



Not kindly.

[Qalevra]

I hate to necropost here, but I want to add some of my thoughts to this discussion. I am simply adding my perspective on the Jewish thoughts toward the Christian messianic movement (as opposed to the Lubavitcher messianic movement).

There is a lot of mistrust toward MJs because this movement is perceived as deceptive in its nature. I have been trying to study the intersection of Judaism and Christianity, and MJ is the manifestation of that intersection. It seems converts from one to the other (and perhaps back again) at one point have exposure to MJ. I find it all to be very interesting, actually.

As for the Jewish perspective on the "Jewishness" of the MJ movement; it seems that the majority believe in the divine nature of their messiah, which places them outside Judaism. However, I understand there is a very small segment of MJ that does not hold this belief. Because I am not aware of the nuances of how they perceive their messiah, it's impossible for me to ascertain whether or not they would be considered part of Judaism. All in all, it seems reasonable to characterize the MJ movement as not Jewish, even those few that were once halachically Jewish became apostates when they worshiped their messiah.

Of course, it is all moot if an MJ was never halachically Jewish in the first place. It seems a common misconception among Christians that belief and following Torah law is all it takes to become Jewish. However, it takes more than simple belief and Torah observance to become part of Judaism, because the Jews are a people, not a religion.

Again, I do not mean to offend. I am simply presenting a point of view.