For Hebrew Experts

[Sephania]

First if you believe that Hebrew is the language of HaShem
and
That it is above all others the most perfect language
and
That this is what G-d wrote in, spoke in and prophecied in
and
Nothing has come along since to replace it ( ie Latin)

Then please see this thread and help defend the language of G-d ( and keep me out of trouble ;) .

What is the language of G-d? (http://www.christianforums.com/t709068)

Todah!

[shmuel]

Which Hebrew would that be? Hebrew has changed significantly in time.

Hebrew at one time had case endings that have been lost, only a tiny remnant remains in Biblical Hebrew. Early Biblical had consecutive verb forms that fell into disuse in later Hebrew. The Biblical Hebrew verb system is still a matter of controversy. Modern Hebrew simply follows a European pattern by taking the perfect for past, imperfect for future, participle for present. A number of sounds have been lost the tet, qof, and tsadi were originally emphatics. now tet is pronounced like tav, qof like kaf, and tsadi like ts. And vav was a waw, and all six begedkafat letters had dual pronunciations at one time in history ... and on and on.

Biblical Hebrew has only about 9000 lexical entries, only about a third or fourth of the words necessary for a living language. Bottom line: most of the vocabulary lost, grammar lost, sounds lost.

S

[I’m_Lesha]

So, it must not be the most perfect language. ;)

[shmuel]

But it is an interesting language! Much of the language (but certainly not all) is constructed from three consonant roots that give it a regularity that English doesn't have.

[Talmidah]

Hmmm....I can't get the link to work. Zayit, do you have the URL for that thread?

[The Thadman]

Hebrew at one time had case endings that have been lost, only a tiny remnant remains in Biblical Hebrew. Early Biblical had consecutive verb forms that fell into disuse in later Hebrew. The Biblical Hebrew verb system is still a matter of controversy. Modern Hebrew simply follows a European pattern by taking the perfect for past, imperfect for future, participle for present. A number of sounds have been lost the tet, qof, and tsadi were originally emphatics. now tet is pronounced like tav, qof like kaf, and tsadi like ts. And vav was a waw, and all six begedkafat letters had dual pronunciations at one time in history ... and on and on. I'm surprised how european Hebrew has become in terms of grammar, where modern Aramaic is still pretty much the same as what Jesus would have spoken (of course with at least some transmutations, but most of them vowel-related). The bghadhkfoth letters still retain their asperations, and the only two consoants that have really changed are tet (which in most modern dialects has become like tau... hehe, but I still pronounce it with my pallate) and beyth (which only in Eastern Aramaic has become like a "w" when asperated/spirantalized, kinda the opposite of Hebrew's waw/vav scenerio).

The biggest jump in grammar was from Old Aramaic to Middle Aramaic and Syriac. The Emphatic endings were adopted as the standard noun suffixes, thereby eliminating any form of definite article. Verbs seem to have been left pretty much alone.

Although it may sound different when spoken due to vowel shifts, if you can read one dialect of Aramaic, you can read at least 95% of any other. Written Aramaic is very uniform compared to other languages, IME.

Peace!
-Steve-o

[shmuel]

Does Aramaic preserve a distinct guttural pronunciation for ayin?

[The Thadman]

Does Aramaic preserve a distinct guttural pronunciation for ayin?
Indeed! The only way I can describe it is that it's like the sound that preceeds vomiting.

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Henaynei]

Indeed! The only way I can describe it is that it's like the sound that preceeds vomiting.

Peace!
-Steve-oNow THAT's yummy!!! :sick:

[shmuel]

With the except of the relatively small useage of Aramaic (mainly Daniel and Ezra) Hebrew is the language of the Tenakh. Therefore, if one is going to read the Tenakh without the intermediary of a translator one needs to know Hebrew.

So, even if Hebrew is not the language of Hashem (whatever that means, since HaShem is omniscient) and it isn't perfect (and whatever that means with regard to language) shouldn't Biblical Hebrew be diligently studied?

S

[Sephania]

I have fixed the link but I suppose that is moot since no one seems to agree with the OP about Hebrew.

shmuel, I understand that HaShem has no limitations but when dealing with mankind He has to restrict himself and I believe he choose Hebrew as his way of communicating with his people. I have read articles before that expounded upon different languages and Hebrew was declaired of all the most perfect. Now I know it has taken its different courses and it was even considered lost at one time. However even though we can now "read" Egyptian hyraglyphics only because of the discovery of a small stella how do we really know if we are reading what they wrote or what we think we want them to have written?

Basically this is a post of someone seeking the truth. They are being told by many that the language of G-d is Latin. That kinda rubs me the wrong way, falls in the line of "replacement" if you know what I mean, and I felt Hebrew needed some defenders in there.

[Henaynei]

You go get 'em, Zayit :clap:

[shmuel]

The concept of Lashon HaQodesh, the Language of Holiness arose among the Ashkenazi who spoke Yiddish as a language for everyday communication and used Hebrew for prayer and Torah study. This is different from the situation in Israel (at least before the Babylonian captivity) where Hebrew was used as the everyday language as well as the language for prayer, and in its literary form the language for writing the Scriptures.

As an aside, Yiddish is a medieval German dialect with a large admixture of Hebrew and Slavic terms. It is amusing to hear non-Jews who are trying to act Jewish speak an archaic German dialect.

All languages are in a sense perfect because they all serve the purpose for which they were intended, human communication. When Hebrew was revived as an everyday language, it was necessary to invent all sorts of words for things that didn't exist when the Bible was written. Likewise the rules for verb useage were made to follow European language. So what form of Hebrew was perfect? classical Biblical Hebrew? late Biblical Hebrew? Rabbinic/Mishnaic Hebrew? Medieval Hebrew? modern Israeli Hebrew?

S

[Sephania]

What ever you want to call what HaShem spoke to Moshe in and he recorded those precious words in.

[Amandine]

Basically this is a post of someone seeking the truth. They are being told by many that the language of G-d is Latin. That kinda rubs me the wrong way, falls in the line of "replacement" if you know what I mean, and I felt Hebrew needed some defenders in there.
The Latin thing was not meant seriously by the all of the posters, except for one Catholic girl at the beginning who was confused and has yet to post again. I don't see anyone in the thread putting Latin above Hebrew, so don't worry about it. :) (especially Oblio, b/c the Orthodox Church uses mostly Greek anyway)
-Catherine

[shmuel]

A traditional date for Mosheh is about 1400 BCE. There were changes in Hebrew grammar after that and later changes in Hebrew spelling. The scribes, possibly under Ezra, updated the grammar and spelling to reflect more modern forms, so I guess by Zayit's definition we don't have any Hebrew.

The usual approach is to take the Hebrew preserved in the Torah and the former prophets through Samuel as the standard by which all other Hebrew is compared.

S

[Sephania]

A traditional date for Mosheh is about 1400 BCE. There were changes in Hebrew grammar after that and later changes in Hebrew spelling. The scribes, possibly under Ezra, updated the grammar and spelling to reflect more modern forms, so I guess by Zayit's definition we don't have any Hebrew.

The usual approach is to take the Hebrew preserved in the Torah and the former prophets through Samuel as the standard by which all other Hebrew is compared.

SWhat?:confused:

[shmuel]

Although there are many who praise Hebrew (and it is an interesting language!!!), few learn Biblical Hebrew well enough to read the Tanakh in Hebrew. Fewer still learn Hebrew well enough to dig into the history of the language. I don't ask anyone to agree with what I wrote, but I would love to have a good discussion about Hebrew.

Why is it that most people stop their Hebrew education after memorizing a few standard phrases? Why are there so few who can parse a Hebrew verb or noun?

S

[rooster]

Perhaps the problem is not the superiority of one tongue over another but the difficulty in translation.
When one language when in translation fails to appropriate the full meaning of the former, it would seem to be inferior.
For example the translation of Kipper into hilaskomai/exilaskomai, kapporeth into hilasterion, kippurim into hilasmos expressed a certain degree of "lost in translation" because of the pagan baggage in the word hilaskomai(propitiation). Where kippur means a divinely initiated "covering" or "wiping out", hilaskomai denotes an appeasement of a vindictive divine power, also the initiative of the act in the two words lie differently. Kipper is one that is G-d initiated, while hilaskomai (being an appeasement) is human initiated.
Thus hilaskomai would seem like a not so suitable translation for kippur especially when it requires redefining of its meaning.
Likewise, the word torah was translated into nomos hence some of the meaning of torah is lost since the meaning of nomos is much stricter then torah.
Hebrew would seem to me to be a language associated with the worship of G-d from the very onset. That when it emerged from Phoenician as its own language it was a language fully synchronised with the lifestyle of a worshipper of G-d. Thus its developement and growth in lexicon and syntex would often be centered around the religion of the jews.
Greek lent itself well to Christian thought and speculation while Latin lent itself to Christian jurispudence (concepts of justification and sanctification were only expressed as we know it in Latin where Greek had problems expressing it). But in Hebrew, it is my opinion that there exist an originality in expressing the things of G-d.

I apologise if it doesn't make any sense, because ramblings often doesn't

[shmuel]

Makes sense!

[visionary]

Indeed! The only way I can describe it is that it's like the sound that preceeds vomiting.

Peace!
-Steve-o

:wave:
Visionary