Who is a Jew?

[Sphinx777]

Are Messianics who are "born Jewish" , i.e., are raised in an ethnic and religiously observant Jewish household, still considered to be "real Jews" by the majority of the Jewish community, even after their conversion and acceptance of Christ as Messiah?

Who is a Jew? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F)




:angel:

[Talmidah]

Are Messianics who are "born Jewish" , i.e., are raised in an ethnic and religiously observant Jewish household, still considered to be "real Jews" by the majority of the Jewish community, even after their conversion and acceptance of Christ as Messiah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_jew


:angel: If they are born Jewish, they will always be Jewish; obviously many will see them as apostate Jews, but Jews nonetheless.

[christianmomof3]

such a confusing topic :sigh:

[Talmidah]

such a confusing topic :sigh:
Why confusing, cmo3?

[christianmomof3]

Why confusing, cmo3?
Did you read the wikipedia article?
According to the Reform Jews (most of my family), I am no longer Jewish.
Although, according to other Jews I am still Jewish but apostate.
I am not sure if being baptised in a bathtub is considered a formal conversion to another religion, but I do believe that Jesus is God therefore I would most likely be denied aliyah.

[SGM4HIM]

Hasn't the Israeli govt. not allowed Messianic Jews Aliyah ( the right to return) ?
I read some articles in the past but don't know the current status of this issue.

[Talmidah]

Did you read the wikipedia article?
According to the Reform Jews (most of my family), I am no longer Jewish.
Although, according to other Jews I am still Jewish but apostate.
I am not sure if being baptised in a bathtub is considered a formal conversion to another religion, but I do believe that Jesus is God therefore I would most likely be denied aliyah.
Ah! I didn't read the wikipedia link, I only read & answered the post here. I am not very familiar with the Reform view of these things, I will check out the link later when I have more time.

[johnd]

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/TV_and_Movies/combat-jedi1.gif

;)

[Talmidah]

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/TV_and_Movies/combat-jedi1.gif
Why don't you just come out and say you want to fight?
;)To whom is this post directed?

[Sphinx777]

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/TV_and_Movies/combat-jedi1.gif

;)

Go Obi-Wan!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related


:angel:

[Talmidah]

Who is a Jew? (http://christianforums.com/t3177431)

[Kris10leigh]

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/TV_and_Movies/combat-jedi1.gif

;)

John, I do not often get your humor, and I don't know who you were directing this at...but I actually thought this was hillarious! ^_^

[Sphinx777]

Who is a Jew? (http://christianforums.com/t3177431)
Thanks for the link!


:angel:

[johnd]

John, I do not often get your humor, and I don't know who you were directing this at...but I actually thought this was hillarious! ^_^

I'm glad. :wave:

[HaReb]

Re the OP - from what has a Messianic Jew converted? To convert, as I have just written on another thread, means that you give up everything of 'a' in order to take on 'b'. Now, it must be very clear that that is not the case with Messianic Jews! I do not know of any Messianic Jew that has given up on being a Jew - if anything the experience of Messiah has made their Jewishness even stronger!

It is a ploy to justify accusing people of changing religion - usually from those who feel under threat or uncomfortable with where they are, or maybe it's just plain jealousy! There are probably lots of secret Messianics in synagogues the world over, too scared to step out of their comfy religion into the truth of what that religion necessarily points to.

[visionary]

As more and more gentiles practice Judaism, through their faith in the Messiah, it is getting confussed with "wanabe jew' concept. The only' Wannabe" jew that they want to imitate is Yeshua.

[Melchizedek]

I find this to be a very interesting convo. :)

[HaReb]

I have edited the text on the Wikipedia page that refers to Jews who have practiced another religion and made the point that conversion is NOT what Messianic Jews have done, at all. It will be interesting to see what happens about that entry!

[johnd]

The gist of what some are saying here is what I have been trying to say all along. Judaism is the relationship of God with his people.

Because HaShem defines Judaism... he created it, commissioned it, established it, and therefore defines it... and at it's crux is the Messiah.

This was also what my "offensive" interpretation of Fiddler on the Roof was meant to depict... God defines what it is to be a Jew and WHO it is at the center of it.

[visionary]

:thumbsup: The gist of what some are saying here is what I have been trying to say all along. Judaism is the relationship of God with his people.

Because HaShem defines Judaism... he created it, commissioned it, established it, and therefore defines it... and at it's crux is the Messiah.

This was also what my "offensive" interpretation of Fiddler on the Roof was meant to depict... God defines what it is to be a Jew and WHO it is at the center of it.I copied this because it bears repeating.

[Talmidah]

:thumbsup:
The gist of what some are saying here is what I have been trying to say all along. Judaism is the relationship of God with his people.

Because HaShem defines Judaism... he created it, commissioned it, established it, and therefore defines it... and at it's crux is the Messiah.

This was also what my "offensive" interpretation of Fiddler on the Roof was meant to depict... God defines what it is to be a Jew and WHO it is at the center of it. I copied this because it bears repeating.

Ah!!! Now I see where you guys are coming from. Basically, people such as myself, Chavak, ChazakEmunah, etc. are non-Jews and you visionary and johnd and the others are are the real Jews. Am I understanding correctly?

[visionary]

Ah!!! Now I see where you guys are coming from. Basically, peole such as myself, Chavak, ChazakEmunah, etc. are non-Jews and you visionary and johnd and the others are are the real Jews. Am I understanding correctly?NO.... Jew is in the blood. Judaism is a faith relationship with God. AS you know any jew can believe any religion he wants. So can any gentile. But those who follow the Holy One of Israel, follow the commands He gave in the spirit He gave them to be followed. It has nothing to do with being jewish. It has everything to do with worshipping and following God.

[Talmidah]

NO.... Jew is in the blood. Judaism is a faith relationship with God. AS you know any jew can believe any religion he wants. So can any gentile. But those who follow the Holy One of Israel, follow the commands He gave in the spirit He gave them to be followed. It has nothing to do with being jewish. It has everything to do with worshipping and following God. vis, I thought I understood you, now I am confused again. Can you please explain John's post to me, then? Does he mean that those of use who do not believe in him are not part of Judaism? He stated that he knows that Hashem has defined Judaism as having 'Yeshua' at the center. Again, since we don't have that belief, that, in his view, leaves us outside of Judaism and only believers in 'Yeshua' as part of Judaism.

You agree with that so if am misunderstanding, can you please explain it to me?

[visionary]

vis, I thought I understood you, now I am confused again. Can you please explain John's post to me, then? Does he mean that those of use who do not believe in him are not part of Judaism? He stated that he knows that Hashem has defined Judaism as having 'Yeshua' at the center. Again, since we don't have that belief, that, in his view, leaves us outside of Judaism and only believers in 'Yeshua' as part of Judaism.

You agree with that so if am misunderstanding, can you please explain it to me?Judaism is a faith... He has taken it a step further and said that Yeshua is at the heart of Judaism. We know that Jews had for centuries built a fence around Judaism to keep it safe guarded, in fact they are the keepers of the oracles of God. God loves them for their dedication and faith. :bow: He has called them to this task and they have been faithful. He also has preserved them for a special task in the end days when the time of the gentiles is over.:thumbsup:

If I owned property and had people guard it, but they did not come up to the house, do they know me well? Are those who go up to the house, and sit at the feet of the teacher there, do they know Him?

There are two types of people in this world, those that "know" Him and those who know of Him. It matters not what name you call yourself. The relationship is the key.

I believe that the day will come when the temple is built that the awakening will come. It will all come together then. Then the Nicodemus experience will occur, and pentacost will happen, and the transformation will take place. The people of God [the Jews] will be standing at the right place and in the right mind to receive the blessings. To others it will thunderings and lightenings, and something awful fearful. Then they will truly be the priests to all nations.:clap:

[Talmidah]

Judaism is a faith... He has taken it a step further and said that Yeshua is at the heart of Judaism. We know that Jews had for centuries built a fence around Judaism to keep it safe guarded, in fact they are the keepers of the oracles of God. God loves them for their dedication and faith. :bow: He has called them to this task and they have been faithful. He also has preserved them for a special task in the end days when the time of the gentiles is over.:thumbsup:

If I owned property and had people guard it, but they did not come up to the house, do they know me well? Are those who go up to the house, and sit at the feet of the teacher there, do they know Him?

There are two types of people in this world, those that "know" Him and those who know of Him. It matters not what name you call yourself. The relationship is the key.

I believe that the day will come when the temple is built that the awakening will come. It will all come together then. Then the Nicodemus experience will occur, and pentacost will happen, and the transformation will take place. The people of God [the Jews] will be standing at the right place and in the right mind to receive the blessings. To others it will thunderings and lightenings, and something awful fearful. Then they will truly be the priests to all nations.:clap:

Okay. Thanks for the explanation, vis.

[christianmomof3]

I kind of think being Jewish is a picture of being born again. It is something you are born as. You don't "choose" to be Jewish - you are born into it.
You can choose to practice the Jewish religion or not, but even if you do not practice it, you are still a Jew.
We do not necessarily "choose" to be born again. God chooses us and we reply to His choosing. After that, we can choose to follow Him or not. Either way, we are born again with His life. There is reward for following Him and loss of that reward for not following Him, but, we are always born again and are always His just as Jewish people are always Jews whether we follow the Jewish religion or not.
It is a matter of the life in us.
It is not a matter of what we do.

[johnd]

Ah!!! Now I see where you guys are coming from. Basically, people such as myself, Chavak, ChazakEmunah, etc. are non-Jews and you visionary and johnd and the others are are the real Jews. Am I understanding correctly?

Let me ask you this, why do you reject the Messiah of your own Bible?

[Talmidah]

Let me ask you this, why do you reject the Messiah of your own Bible?
Aside from it being against the rules to get into that here, I have no desire to do so. Suffice it to say that I am grateful to God that He brought me close to Him and I was able to repent of my former beliefs and make teshuvah.

[johnd]

:thumbsup: I copied this because it bears repeating.

It also bore reporting since (as you know). Thanks for the input there as well.

Such truth is hard for those for some folks to swallow.

[johnd]

Aside from it being against the rules to get into that here, I have no desire to do so. Suffice it to say that I am grateful to God that He brought me close to Him and I was able to repent of my former beliefs and make teshuvah.

By former beliefs I gather you refer to Messianic / Christian beliefs.
Nothing I can say will make any consolation to you when you discover in earnest what you have done, and you look into the face of the Lord (YHVH) and tell him why you rejected him.

I only feel grief and offer one last prayer of hope for you and those like you:

Romans 11:18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

[visionary]

By former beliefs I gather you refer to Messianic / Christian beliefs.
Nothing I can say will make any consolation to you when you discover in earnest what you have done, and you look into the face of the Lord (YHVH) and tell him why you rejected him.

I only feel grief and offer one last prayer of hope for you and those like you:

Romans 11:18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.That biblical verses you chose, was to the gentile not to think too highly of themselves before Jews.

[johnd]

The terms get hard to define from so many not going by the guidelines God set forth. Judaism is the faith (religion, if you will). Ethnic Judaism (Jewishness by birth) is the human vehicle through which God brought the Messiah and Judaism into the world.

It's nothing new, certainly nothing to be offended by here on a Christian forums message board... because it only takes a cursory read of the Bible (Old Testament) to see that the people did not always follow the Judaism God set forth.

[johnd]

That biblical verses you chose, was to the gentile not to think too highly of themselves before Jews.

That is included in the verse and to render an honest posting of the passage I did not edit it out. BUT, what I highlighted word for word was my prayer that Talmidah and all Jews like her understand and remember before it is too late (i.e. the end of their natural lives) that they can be grafted back in. Only believe.

And that is my prayer. That they be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[visionary]

Yeshua said so.... John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

[johnd]

That is included in the verse and to render an honest posting of the passage I did not edit it out. BUT, what I highlighted word for word was my prayer that Talmidah and all Jews like her understand and remember before it is too late (i.e. the end of their natural lives) that they can be grafted back in. Only believe.

And that is my prayer. That they be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is truly how I feel for Talmidah, Visionary, even though I could make the strong case that given the language Talmidah uses here alone strongly supports my suspicions that she hopes to cause those who believe in Yeshua to have doubts and question the gentile mishandling of the Jewish faith to the point that all will follow her in chunking anything to do with Yeshua... who (unbeknownst to her) is at the heart of Judaism. So I am fighting for her sake... even if at times it means fighting her... As any parent knows, this is as much a definition of agape / Godly love as any.

yish sarar elohiym... the ultimate Prince of God... is whom?

[johnd]

Yeshua said so.... John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

He was speaking to the Samaritan woman who essentially asked about their version of the Torah and worship in Samaria rather than Jerusalem.

Yeshua's response was to chastise variations on what was revealed. Pointing out in Matthew 13 that Judaism had already been infiltrated enough in Jerusalem as it was... the leaven in the lump and the tares sown in with the wheat...

And I would make the case that what you quoted is a proof text that correct belief in God makes one a spiritual Jew.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”

[Talmidah]

This is true, Visionary, even though I could make the strong case that given the language Talmidah uses here alone strongly supports my suspicions that she hopes to cause those who believe in Yeshua to have doubts and question the gentile mishandling of the Jewish faith to the point that all will follow her in chunking anything to do with Yeshua... who is at the heart of Judaism. Actually your suspicions are unfounded. :)

[johnd]

Actually your suspicions are unfounded. :)

I hope so. :prayer:

But your words strongly indicate I have good reason for concern.
:scratch:

In any case, I don't doubt your sincerity. And I hope you don't doubt mine especially when it comes to the fact I care about you and hope you at least took under advisement what I quoted about being grafted back in.

God bless.

[Talmidah]

I hope so. :prayer:

But your words strongly indicate I have good reason for concern.
:scratch: Which words? You asked me straight out why I don't believe what you do. I did not answer fully but I answered honestly. If you are speaking about words in a different post, please let me know. I assure you 100% that my being here is not to convert anyone away from or to anything. In the four years that I've been here, I have always been open and honest.

In any case, I don't doubt your sincerity. And I hope you don't doubt mine especially when it comes to the fact I care about you and hope you at least took under advisement what I quoted about being grafted back in.

God bless. Thank you. :)

[visionary]

phweeeue.. glad too you too come to an understanding...

Trust God... He knows what He is doing in our hearts and the path that is necesary for us to understand forourselves. Pray and Love our brethren has been our charge.

[Ivy]

Talmidah has been known around here for a long time as a good egg. :thumbsup:

[ShirChadash]

I mean no offense to anyone -- Messianic Jewish members, Messianic Gentile members, Christians, nor certainly Jewish members in posting this. My hope is I will be understood and my words will be seen and accepted as offering my understanding of another poster's comments.

In re: this post,
The gist of what some are saying here is what I have been trying to say all along. Judaism is the relationship of God with his people. Judaism is what those rejected Yeshua turned away from... sorry if this offends.

John, I believe I understand what you are saying -- you believe that true Judaism is Judaism that embraces its Moshiach, and since you believe Jesus to be that messiah, "true Judaism" in your mind is Christian/Christ-believing, am I correct?

I must point out respectfully, however, that as you said

Because HaShem defines Judaism... he created it, commissioned it, established it, and therefore defines it...

HaShem also also gave the definition and qualifications for who His Messiah is, and Moshiach must clearly and visibly fulfill all of those requirements.

The gist of what some are saying here is what I have been trying to say all along. Judaism is the relationship of God with his people. Judaism is what those rejected Yeshua turned away from... sorry if this offends.

In saying this, John, I believe you assert directly that Jews are no longer G-d's people. My reasoning: If you acknowledge that Judaism is the relationship of God with His people, and you are stating that that relationship with G-d is what non-Messianic Jews have turned away from in rejecting Jesus as messiah, then you are stating in not-so-concise wording that Jews no longer have relationship with HaShem, and are not His people, unless and until they acknowledge Jesus as that messiah.

Do you mean to assert that Jews are no longer G-d's people unless and until they recognize Jesus as messiah?

with shalom...

[Torah613]

Are Messianics who are "born Jewish" , i.e., are raised in an ethnic and religiously observant Jewish household, still considered to be "real Jews" by the majority of the Jewish community, even after their conversion and acceptance of Christ as Messiah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_jew


:angel:
well, speaking from a frum perspective, yes. They would be apostate Jews, but Jews none the less. That is of course assuming that their mother was Jewish.

A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Now various more modern movements have a different perspective on this, but when you throw the Halacha out the window its easy to come up with all sorts of ways of seeing the world...

(according to Reform I wouldn't be Jewish as I wasn't raised with a Jewish identity and would need to undergo conversion. According to Chabad, I'm as Jewish as they come.)

Yochanan

[Torah613]

a

[Torah613]

Aside from it being against the rules to get into that here, I have no desire to do so. Suffice it to say that I am grateful to God that He brought me close to Him and I was able to repent of my former beliefs and make teshuvah.
A big old Omayn to that!

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Hasn't the Israeli govt. not allowed Messianic Jews Aliyah ( the right to return) ?
I read some articles in the past but don't know the current status of this issue.

As far as I know, the situation has not changed...

[ChavaK]

even though I could make the strong case that given the language Talmidah uses here alone strongly supports my suspicions that she hopes to cause those who believe in Yeshua to have doubts and question the gentile mishandling of the Jewish faith to the point that all will follow her in chunking anything to do with Yeshua...


This is grossly unfair to Talmidah, to the Jews who participate
in this forum, and to Judaism in general.

We have no interest in any Gentile shedding whatever beliefs
they have. We actively discourage conversion to Judaism.
It is not necessary to convert to be acceptable to G-d, and
it is too difficult for most Gentiles to do.

Non-Jews should remain as they are, with the beliefs that they
hold.

[johnd]

John, I believe I understand what you are saying -- you believe that true Judaism is Judaism that embraces its Moshiach, and since you believe Jesus to be that messiah, "true Judaism" in your mind is Christian/Christ-believing, am I correct?

Very close. I believe the good ship Judaism was abandoned by those who knew how to sail her because they didn't like where she was heading. Those who abandoned ship manned a lifeboat which they dubbed "Judaism" and headed off in another direction in a far less adequate ocean going vessel to say the least. Meanwhile the real Judaism was manned by people not as well trained who made several major blunders and course errors but were generally headed in the right direction according to the charts they found aboard.

Now the intended navigators of the good ship Judaism can return to the ship and resume the correct course heading at any time.

That's really all I am saying... and another way of saying what Rabbi Shaul b' Tarshus wrote in Romans 11:16-26 about being cut off from the Olive tree and being grafted / regrafted into it. It's still the same tree. It is not a new entity. It's still Judaism... as it was intended by God to be...

Both Jew and Gentile have contributed to the poor seamanship aboard the good ship Judaism. That's why the course corrections were necessary... but had stubborn people in both camps only gone by the charts already provided... you get the gist of this...

HaShem also also gave the definition and qualifications for who His Messiah is, and Moshiach must clearly and visibly fulfill all of those requirements.Give him a chance. He's already fulfilled some 300 prophecies from the Tanakh in his first advent. He's coming back and will fulfill the rest.

In saying this, John, I believe you assert directly that Jews are no longer G-d's people. Nope. Not at all.

God called apart a people (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their descendants) through whom he would bring into the world the Torah and the Messiah. Abraham is the physical father of two lines of descendants (Ishmael and Israel). One is a physical line and the other the line of promise.

Jews are as much God's physical people on earth as Ishmael was a descendant of Abraham. Ah, but Abraham was also the father of faith. So Jews who follow the faith of God as God revealed it to the nation were and are also God's spirit people (as much as Israel is the line of promise).

And even though physical Jews who refused to believe Yeshua is the Messiah (and are thus not God's spirit people), they are nevertheless physical Jews God's chosen {physical} people in {this} life... and that is all.

If you get what I am saying and the heart I am saying it with ... then you will understand the love I have for the physical Jewish people in that I hope and pray (every day) that all will become spirit Jews as well (returning to the good ship Judaism and abandoning the lifeboat they only named Judaism).

With peace and love for the Jewish people (both physical and spirit) Amen.

[Lulav]

I mean no offense to anyone -- Messianic Jewish members, Messianic Gentile members, Christians, nor certainly Jewish members in posting this. My hope is I will be understood and my words will be seen and accepted as offering my understanding of another poster's comments.

In re: this post,


John, I believe I understand what you are saying -- you believe that true Judaism is Judaism that embraces its Moshiach, and since you believe Jesus to be that messiah, "true Judaism" in your mind is Christian/Christ-believing, am I correct?

I must point out respectfully, however, that as you said


[/color]
HaShem also also gave the definition and qualifications for who His Messiah is, and Moshiach must clearly and visibly fulfill all of those requirements.



In saying this, John, I believe you assert directly that Jews are no longer G-d's people. My reasoning: If you acknowledge that Judaism is the relationship of God with His people, and you are stating that that relationship with G-d is what non-Messianic Jews have turned away from in rejecting Jesus as messiah, then you are stating in not-so-concise wording that Jews no longer have relationship with HaShem, and are not His people, unless and until they acknowledge Jesus as that messiah.

Do you mean to assert that Jews are no longer G-d's people unless and until they recognize Jesus as messiah?

with shalom... I hate to say this, but the way you are describing this it sounds a lot like replacement theology. :(

[johnd]

I hate to say this, but the way you are describing this it sounds a lot like replacement theology. :(

I realize you quoted another's post, but I answered this by clarifying:

To describe my point I depicted it this way:

... the good ship Judaism was abandoned by those who knew how to sail her because they didn't like where she was heading. Those who abandoned ship manned a lifeboat which they dubbed "Judaism" and headed off in another direction in a far less adequate ocean going vessel to say the least. Meanwhile the real Judaism was manned by people not as well trained who made several major blunders and course errors but were generally headed in the right direction according to the charts they found aboard.

Now the intended navigators of the good ship Judaism can return to the ship and resume the correct course heading at any time.

That's really all I am saying... and another way of saying what Rabbi Shaul b' Tarshus wrote in Romans 11:16-26 about being cut off from the Olive tree and being grafted / regrafted into it. It's still the same tree. It is not a new entity. It's still Judaism... as it was intended by God to be...

Both Jew and Gentile have contributed to the poor seamanship aboard the good ship Judaism. That's why the course corrections were necessary... but had stubborn people in both camps only gone by the charts already provided... you get the gist of this...

It was suggested that Jesus did not fulfill all of the messianic prophecies at once (for which there is not biblical precedent on how or when he would fulfill all... only that he would)...

Give him (Yeshua) a chance. He's already fulfilled some 300 prophecies from the Tanakh in his first advent. He's coming back and will fulfill the rest.

And here's the dividing line between replacement theology and this thread which I believe is truth defensible by biblical support...

For it was asked if this was suggesting that the (born / ethnic) Jews were no longer God's people...

Nope. Not at all.

God called apart a people (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their descendants) through whom he would bring into the world the Torah and the Messiah. Abraham is the physical father of two lines of descendants (Ishmael and Israel). One is a physical line and the other the line of promise.

Jews are as much God's physical people on earth as Ishmael was a descendant of Abraham. Ah, but Abraham was also the father of faith. So Jews who follow the faith of God as God revealed it to the nation were and are also God's spirit people (as much as Israel is the line of promise).

And even though physical Jews who refused to believe Yeshua is the Messiah (and are thus not God's spirit people), they are nevertheless physical Jews God's chosen {physical} people in {this} life... and that is all.

If you get what I am saying and the heart I am saying it with ... then you will understand the love I have for the physical Jewish people in that I hope and pray (every day) that all will become spirit Jews as well (returning to the good ship Judaism and abandoning the lifeboat they only named Judaism).

With peace and love for the Jewish people (both physical and spirit) Amen.

And I didn't want the points of this thread vanishing with it being incorrectly interpreted as just another replacement theology pitch. Which it is not. :)

[ShirChadash]

Very close. I believe the good ship Judaism was abandoned by those who knew how to sail her because they didn't like where she was heading. Those who abandoned ship manned a lifeboat which they dubbed "Judaism" and headed off in another direction in a far less adequate ocean going vessel to say the least. Meanwhile the real Judaism was manned by people not as well trained who made several major blunders and course errors but were generally headed in the right direction according to the charts they found aboard.

Now the intended navigators of the good ship Judaism can return to the ship and resume the correct course heading at any time.

That's really all I am saying... and another way of saying what Rabbi Shaul b' Tarshus wrote in Romans 11:16-26 about being cut off from the Olive tree and being grafted / regrafted into it. It's still the same tree. It is not a new entity. It's still Judaism... as it was intended by God to be...

Both Jew and Gentile have contributed to the poor seamanship aboard the good ship Judaism. That's why the course corrections were necessary... but had stubborn people in both camps only gone by the charts already provided... you get the gist of this...

Give him a chance. He's already fulfilled some 300 prophecies from the Tanakh in his first advent. He's coming back and will fulfill the rest.

Nope. Not at all.

God called apart a people (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their descendants) through whom he would bring into the world the Torah and the Messiah. Abraham is the physical father of two lines of descendants (Ishmael and Israel). One is a physical line and the other the line of promise.

Jews are as much God's physical people on earth as Ishmael was a descendant of Abraham. Ah, but Abraham was also the father of faith. So Jews who follow the faith of God as God revealed it to the nation were and are also God's spirit people (as much as Israel is the line of promise).

And even though physical Jews who refused to believe Yeshua is the Messiah (and are thus not God's spirit people), they are nevertheless physical Jews God's chosen {physical} people in {this} life... and that is all.

If you get what I am saying and the heart I am saying it with ... then you will understand the love I have for the physical Jewish people in that I hope and pray (every day) that all will become spirit Jews as well (returning to the good ship Judaism and abandoning the lifeboat they only named Judaism).

With peace and love for the Jewish people (both physical and spirit) Amen.


Oh John. I'm sorry, I am absolutely speechless. So as to neither offend or break rules, I will simply shake my head and walk away now.

[ShirChadash]

I hate to say this, but the way you are describing this it sounds a lot like replacement theology. :(
Yes, it certainly does, Lulav.

[christianmomof3]

I hate to say this, but the way you are describing this it sounds a lot like replacement theology. :(
It sounds that way to me also.
John, have you read Romans ch 11?

[johnd]

Oh John. I'm sorry, I am absolutely speechless. So as to neither offend or break rules, I will simply shake my head and walk away now.

Is it your premise then that everyone born Jewish is spiritual? Does that not present a problem with the Yacov / Esau distinction?

It's not replacement theology. It's not antisemitic. It's God set forth a spiritual program and set apart a people to usher the spiritual program into the world.

[johnd]

It sounds that way to me also.
John, have you read Romans ch 11?

:scratch:

Have you?

How can branches be cut off (and hopefully regrafted in) if there is no distinction between a physical Jew and a spiritual Jew?

Romans 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Bearing in mind:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Not replacement. Distinction. Replacement says God scrapped Israel and implemented "the Church" forever in its place... THAT is replacement theology. What I am saying the Bible teaches is that God set forth a program of salvation to man and it has always been up to man to conform to it (first the Jew who he called apart to usher in the Law and the Messiah, and then the rest of the human race).

There's nothing... nothing at all replacement about it. It's a matter of God being in charge and human beings submitting to his plan his will or refusing to. Including the definition of Israel, Jew, spiritual, physical etc.

It's God's kingdom, people. How ironic we leave him out of the equation so much of the time that we end up falling into such arguments about such things. :doh:

[visionary]

Debating

[johnd]

Good call.http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/radhelp/v6r0m1/topic/com.ibm.etools.animgif.doc/images/skiing.gif

[Lulav]

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Bearing in mind:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Some could read this the way you are, and some could read this as all that proclaim to be a part of Israel or the 'new Israel' such as gentiles who think the church has replaced Israel, are those referred to here as 'Not Israel', because they pretend to be grafted in when in reality they seek to usurp.

[ChavaK]

The debate is not only between Messianic and Non-Messianic
Jews, but between traditional Jews.
This article is long but an interesting read:

http://www.itim.org.il/Static/Binaries/PhotoGallery/NYTMagazineMarch2.08_0.pdf

[johnd]

Some could read this the way you are, and some could read this as all that proclaim to be a part of Israel or the 'new Israel' such as gentiles who think the church has replaced Israel, are those referred to here as 'Not Israel', because they pretend to be grafted in when in reality they seek to usurp.


Do you understand Lulav that this is not what I am doing?

That the ship the Lord built and commissioned is still the same whether Jew or Gentile sail on it to where God destined it to go?

Replacement would mean that God sent another ship. He did not. The Gentiles did not replace the Jews, the Jews who abandoned ship simply abandoned ship. BUT they can come aboard if they will just believe in the Jewish Messiah.

[johnd]

If there is any replacement going on here, is it not actually the form of Judaism itself that denies the Messiah?

[johnd]

The debate is not only between Messianic and Non-Messianic
Jews, but between traditional Jews.
This article is long but an interesting read:

http://www.itim.org.il/Static/Binaries/PhotoGallery/NYTMagazineMarch2.08_0.pdf

Precisely my point. This was a dilemma back when the new Israeli government was being formed. "So who is Jewish?"

If I am quoting Ben Gurion correctly (from memory) at the end of the endless debate he said , a Jew is one who considers him or her self one... who else would want that sort of grief?"

I realize there are a lot of wannabes (I have even been accused of this). But if one does not consider the physical / spiritual aspects I suggested, then they will never settle the debate.

I maintain, for example, that the Abrahamic land grants / covenants are for strictly the physical (ethnic / born) Jews. And there is a passage in Ezekiel about the inheritance of the Prince not coming from the people which would back this up.

[johnd]

The way the Gentile Church has tried to make it into replacement theology it smells of the Book of Mormon. But the Gospel was not derived from another Biblical source rather the Tanakh. So it smells of Watchtower theology to the Jew who is cautious and quite skeptical based on the behavior they observe in Christians.

As I said, I get it where the unbelieving Jew comes. But as I said it has to be at least considered since it came strictly (originally) from the Tanakh. And in such a way that the Prophet Daniel had to be relegated to the ketuvim as if the ketuvim were somehow not as binding as the neviim.

In Daniel a prophetic curtain call took place about 2000 years ago for the Messiah. If Yeshua HaNotsri be not him, then where is God's Messiah?

[A_Pioneer]

Who is the God of this world?
Who is a Jew?
Why does a Jew not see the Moshiach?
Why is the God of this world in lower case?
How many gods are there?
To me there is only One God.

[Torah613]

This is grossly unfair to Talmidah, to the Jews who participate
in this forum, and to Judaism in general.

We have no interest in any Gentile shedding whatever beliefs
they have. We actively discourage conversion to Judaism.
It is not necessary to convert to be acceptable to G-d, and
it is too difficult for most Gentiles to do.

Non-Jews should remain as they are, with the beliefs that they
hold.
a big old Omayn! to that!

Yochanan

[kivi]

Judaism, which is a religious tradition that goes back 3300 years, has clear guidelines as to membership: Either you are born to a Jewish mother or you convert to Judaism using the from and procedures as presented in the Law of the Nation of Israel, the Torah.

Guidelines like this are not uncommon in the secular world. For example, to be an American citizen you either have to be born of at least one parent who is an American citizen or born on American soil or naturalized according to US law.

Finally, only the nation in question has the right to establish laws of citizenship. No other entity has such a right.

[ChavaK]

Judaism, which is a religious tradition that goes back 3300 years, has clear guidelines as to membership: Either you are born to a Jewish mother or you convert to Judaism using the from and procedures as presented in the Law of the Nation of Israel, the Torah.

Guidelines like this are not uncommon in the secular world. For example, to be an American citizen you either have to be born of at least one parent who is an American citizen or born on American soil or naturalized according to US law.

Finally, only the nation in question has the right to establish laws of citizenship. No other entity has such a right.

:thumbsup:

[Torah613]

I concur with Chava. A most excellent point Kivi.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Do you understand Lulav that this is not what I am doing?

That the ship the Lord built and commissioned is still the same whether Jew or Gentile sail on it to where God destined it to go?

Replacement would mean that God sent another ship. He did not. The Gentiles did not replace the Jews, the Jews who abandoned ship simply abandoned ship. BUT they can come aboard if they will just believe in the Jewish Messiah.No, perhaps you don't understand what your words are conveying. For example above what I highlighted, This conjectural ship, was given to the Jews, they are to be the head of it, it was not theirs until Yeshua came along and then handed it over to the gentiles to steer. We are to be the head, not the tail, and by the way you word things you think this is interchangeable and it's not.

[kivi]

No, perhaps you don't understand what your words are conveying. For example above what I highlighted, This conjectural ship, was given to the Jews, they are to be the head of it, it was not theirs until Yeshua came along and then handed it over to the gentiles to steer. We are to be the head, not the tail, and by the way you word things you think this is interchangeable and it's not.
If I might explain how Judaism sees this matter?

In the process from Abraham to Moses, G-d charged the Jews/B'nai Israel, with the responsiblity to be the spiritual guides to Mankind, a kingdom of priests to Mankind. To this end, he gave to Mankind a nation called B'nai Israel to do this job, a manuel called the Torah so that B'nai Israel could do this job, a place called the Land [Eretz] of Israel for B'nai Israel to use the Torah to do this job. As far as we are concerned, He has never fired us or divorced us. We are still obligated for that job. The job is not finished and will continue after the Messiah [finally] Comes. Currently, we fulfill the job, to the best of our ability, by being the canaries in the mine for Mankind. In the 1800's coal miners to check if methane, a very volatile, explosive and heavier than air gas that caused many deadly mine explosions, was present would put canaries in cages along the floor of the mine the miners were working. When the canaries started dying, the miners knew that the methane build up was critical and it was time to abandon the mine. We are your canaries. When we start dying, you know that the situation is dangerous, not just for us, but for all humans. If you take our deaths for your warning, then we are doing our job.

You will notice that the job given us is not about getting into Heaven or getting others in to Heaven. We believe the following: "All of B'nai Israel [Nation of Israel] and the righteous of the Nations [righteous gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]." We believe that it is all about living the good life: the spiritual, G-d oriented, moral, service driven life. G-d can handle Heaven, we are charged to fulfill G-d's purpose in this world.

[Torah613]

very well said Kivi! Kudos.

Yochanan

[A_Pioneer]

If I might explain how Judaism sees this matter?

In the process from Abraham to Moses, G-d charged the Jews/B'nai Israel, with the responsiblity to be the spiritual guides to Mankind, a kingdom of priests to Mankind. To this end, he gave to Mankind a nation called B'nai Israel to do this job, a manuel called the Torah so that B'nai Israel could do this job, a place called the Land [Eretz] of Israel for B'nai Israel to use the Torah to do this job. As far as we are concerned, He has never fired us or divorced us. We are still obligated for that job. The job is not finished and will continue after the Messiah [finally] Comes. Currently, we fulfill the job, to the best of our ability, by being the canaries in the mine for Mankind. In the 1800's coal miners to check if methane, a very volatile, explosive and heavier than air gas that caused many deadly mine explosions, was present would put canaries in cages along the floor of the mine the miners were working. When the canaries started dying, the miners knew that the methane build up was critical and it was time to abandon the mine. We are your canaries. When we start dying, you know that the situation is dangerous, not just for us, but for all humans. If you take our deaths for your warning, then we are doing our job.

You will notice that the job given us is not about getting into Heaven or getting others in to Heaven. We believe the following: "All of B'nai Israel [Nation of Israel] and the righteous of the Nations [righteous gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]." We believe that it is all about living the good life: the spiritual, G-d oriented, moral, service driven life. G-d can handle Heaven, we are charged to fulfill G-d's purpose in this world.
Amen. G-d confirms this in Deut 8:3 seconded by Yeshua in Mt. 4:4 and Jn. 5:24.

Shalom

[ChazakEmunah]

Well this has certainly been an interesting thread. I almost got upset at some of the things that were said by certain parties. Since I am currently enjoying a peaceful existence (thanks to Rebbe Nachman) I will only say this: Judaism and Judaism alone defines who is a Jew and what the criteria is for the Mashiakh. No other group is thus entitled.

Have a wonderful day! :)

[ContraMundum]

WSince I am currently enjoying a peaceful existence (thanks to Rebbe Nachman)

Cool. :thumbsup:

[Lulav]

Well this has certainly been an interesting thread. I almost got upset at some of the things that were said by certain parties. Since I am currently enjoying a peaceful existence (thanks to Rebbe Nachman) I will only say this: Judaism and Judaism alone defines who is a Jew and what the criteria is for the Mashiakh. No other group is thus entitled.

Have a wonderful day! :) So are you a Breslover?

[ChazakEmunah]

So are you a Breslover?
I'm moving that direction. :)

I've started incorporating many of their practices, but I wouldn't say that I'm a Breslever just yet.... Give me another couple months or so. :)

[ChazakEmunah]

Cool. :thumbsup:
Yeah, it's absolutely amazing how much my life has changed! It's awesome! Barukh HaShem!!!!

[Torah613]

I would be a Breslever myself if I lived near a center. Such Emunah in them. Never have I seen such powerful faith.

For those who don't know what a Breslever is, take a look at the movie Ushpizim.

Yochanan

[ChazakEmunah]

I would be a Breslever myself if I lived near a center. Such Emunah in them. Never have I seen such powerful faith.

For those who don't know what a Breslever is, take a look at the movie Ushpizim.

Yochanan
You don't have to live near a Breslev center to be a Breslever. :)

Check out #4 specifically. http://www.breslov.org/quest.html

[Torah613]

thank you very much for the link!

Yochanan

[stone]

If they are born Jewish, they will always be Jewish; obviously many will see them as apostate Jews, but Jews nonetheless.

good answer:wave:

[yiddishakups]

Go to the Yeshua Connection Web Site, scroll down until you see "Who is a Jew". Click on it for an interesting answer.