Disagreeing with beliefs, can we just say No?

[reddogs]

Many people lose faith and it comes out as saying no to church beliefs or a rejection of the truth which they held. Now if they see or are given new light like Martin Luther, then you have to decide if you are being led by God. When the Reformers identified a falling away from the original purity of the Christian faith, they were not dealing with a philosophical issue. They were rightly fighting against the idea that the church had innate authority, or that tradition trumped biblical truth.

The principle of 'sola scriptura' was seeking faith in its pure, primordial form, as originally found in the scriptures, but then where is the Holy Spirit or the testimony of Christ as scripture says will be given us. So God has not stopped giving us understanding, and the Holy Spirit has not stops its work, and Christ testimony is still presented for us as thats what the whole word points to. We can look at how it is to be understood, but what they give us cannot be discarded, we have to look at the beliefs and see if they are Christ centered and lead us to Christ.

But just saying no to beliefs is not always a change for the better or 'a more clear understanding' as what happens is that eventually you have to decide what direction to go. Then it gets hard as most of what is out there is 'private interpretations', mans logic from his 'wisdom' on the divine or outright false doctrines, and trying to unveil what God through His scripture and His Son Jesus Christ through His testimony is giving us becomes impossible unless the Holy Spirit is guiding, and especially in unveiling the end time events and bring us closer to Christ during these last days....

[ChrisCarol]

Many people lose faith and it comes out as saying no to church beliefs or a rejection of the truth which they held. Now if they see or are given new light like Martin Luther, then you have to decide if you are being led by God.

But just saying no to beliefs is not always a change for the better or 'a more clear understanding' as what happens is that eventually you have to decide what direction to go. Then it gets hard as most of what is out there is 'private interpretations', mans logic from his 'wisdom' on the divine or outright false doctrines, and trying to unveil what God through His scripture and His Son Jesus Christ through His testimony is giving us becomes impossible unless the Holy Spirit is guiding, and especially in unveiling the end time events and bring us closer to Christ during these last days....
Yes, it's called using the Bible and the Bible alone.

When you use the Word of God then you are lead by God to see what He wants you to see not some man/woman's idea of what the scriptures say.

I have been there when I was presented with SDA and found my answers in the Bible and the Bible alone and they do not add up to what SDA doctrine is.

Sorry, truth hurts.

[reddogs]

Yes, it's called using the Bible and the Bible alone.

When you use the Word of God then you are lead by God to see what He wants you to see not some man/woman's idea of what the scriptures say.

I have been there when I was presented with SDA and found my answers in the Bible and the Bible alone and they do not add up to what SDA doctrine is.

Sorry, truth hurts.

The principle of sola scriptura was one of the primary principles of the Reformation as it pointed believers back to God and His Son Jesus Christ. But you have to continue with the Holy Spirit guiding you into all truth, which is Christ centered and leads you to Him and His gift of eternal life. Rejecting what is being poured out and given from the Spirit which is the voice of Christ, is rejecting Christ himself and that which the God the Father gives us....

[Byfaithalone1]

Many people lose faith and it comes out as saying no to church beliefs or a rejection of the truth which they held.

Honest question--do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Now if they see or are given new light like Martin Luther, then you have to decide if you are being led by God.

I agree with this statement. Having faced this very question, I can tell you from first-hand experience that the Holy Spirit can, at times, provide very clear and direct guidance.

When the Reformers identified a falling away from the original purity of the Christian faith, they were not dealing with a philosophical issue. They were rightly fighting against the idea that the church had innate authority, or that tradition trumped biblical truth.

I can sympathize with such a fight.

The principle of 'sola scriptura' was seeking faith in its pure, primordial form, as originally found in the scriptures,

I question why we would need anything else.

but then where is the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit convicted the Bible authors. He convicts those who read their words. Again, why would we need anything else?

or the testimony of Christ as scripture says will be given us.

I would guess that it is your assumption that the writings of Ellen G. White are "the testimony of Christ." If so, I must respectfully disagree. The writings of any author who directly contradicts the words of Scripture must be scrutinized quite closely. They do not represent "the testimony of Christ."

So God has not stopped giving us understanding, and the Holy Spirit has not stops its work,

Definitely not. In fact, the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters written in stone.

and Christ testimony is still presented for us as thats what the whole word points to.

Perhaps you can explain this statement from the context of Scripture.

We can look at how it is to be understood, but what they give us cannot be discarded,

If the words of an author contradict Scripture, such words can and must be discarded.

we have to look at the beliefs and see if they are Christ centered and lead us to Christ.

We also need to consider whether they are consistent with Scripture and we should follow the direction of the Spirit.

But just saying no to beliefs is not always a change for the better or 'a more clear understanding' as what happens is that eventually you have to decide what direction to go.

Such a statement demonstrates a level of ignorance as to the choices that many formers have made. Many of us wrestled with the Spirit's leading for some time. We searched the Scriptures, hoping to find confirmation for the SDA distinctives. We have always loved SDAs and continue to love them. The decision was not based on a whim.

Then it gets hard as most of what is out there is 'private interpretations', mans logic from his 'wisdom' on the divine or outright false doctrines, and trying to unveil what God through His scripture and His Son Jesus Christ through His testimony is giving us becomes impossible unless the Holy Spirit is guiding, and especially in unveiling the end time events and bring us closer to Christ during these last days....

When a SDA makes a commitment to read Scripture and only Scripture for a considerable period of time, he begins to see things he may never have seen before. These things are revealed through the Spirit through the reading of Scripture alone. When faced with such revelations, the SDA faces a dilemma. When that dilemma is faced head-on, some SDAs have found the real beauty of the gospel.

It is my hope that all of us will understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't based on knowledge, or works, or character change, or the law, or a modern prophet, or sinlessness before the close of probation, or sabbath keeping before the mark of the beast, or the denomination of which you are a member. It is based upon the grace of Jesus Christ.

BFA

[reddogs]

Honest question--do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"



I agree with this statement. Having faced this very question, I can tell you from first-hand experience that the Holy Spirit can, at times, provide very clear and direct guidance.



I can sympathize with such a fight.



I question why we would need anything else.



The Holy Spirit convicted the Bible authors. He convicts those who read their words. Again, why would we need anything else?



I would guess that it is your assumption that the writings of Ellen G. White are "the testimony of Christ." If so, I must respectfully disagree. The writings of any author who directly contradicts the words of Scripture must be scrutinized quite closely. They do not represent "the testimony of Christ."



Definitely not. In fact, the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters written in stone.



Perhaps you can explain this statement from the context of Scripture.



If the words of an author contradict Scripture, such words can and must be discarded.



We also need to consider whether they are consistent with Scripture and we should follow the direction of the Spirit.



Such a statement demonstrates a level of ignorance as to the choices that many formers have made. Many of us wrestled with the Spirit's leading for some time. We searched the Scriptures, hoping to find confirmation for the SDA distinctives. We have always loved SDAs and continue to love them. The decision was not based on a whim.



When a SDA makes a commitment to read Scripture and only Scripture for a considerable period of time, he begins to see things he may never have seen before. These things are revealed through the Spirit through the reading of Scripture alone. When faced with such revelations, the SDA faces a dilemma. When that dilemma is faced head-on, some SDAs have found the real beauty of the gospel.

It is my hope that all of us will understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It isn't based on knowledge, or works, or character change, or the law, or a modern prophet, or sinlessness before the close of probation, or sabbath keeping before the mark of the beast, or the denomination of which you are a member. It is based upon the grace of Jesus Christ.

BFA

When a believer accepts Christ and allows Christ in his heart that is also the Holy Spirit that comes and begins its work, and the believer begins to truly know Christ, and come closer with Him. So when the believer sees what is from Christ and leads him to Christ, he doesnt fight against it and reject it, as he knows the source and that its in harmony with Gods will and purpose...

[Byfaithalone1]

When a believer accepts Christ and allows Christ in his heart that is also the Holy Spirit that comes and begins its work, and the believer begins to truly know Christ, and come closer with Him. So when the believer sees what is from Christ and leads him to Christ, he doesnt fight against it and reject it, as he knows the source and that its in harmony with Gods will and purpose...

I'm hoping that, at some point as you have the time, you will speak specifically to each of the points raised in my post.

BFA

[reddogs]

I'm hoping that, at some point as you have the time, you will speak specifically to each of the points raised in my post.

BFA
Just for the sake of argument........:doh:I dont do that.......


Now if you are seeking truth, we can share and discuss what understanding we've been given so that we can both grow in Christ......

[Pythons]

but then where is the Holy Spirit or the testimony of Christ as scripture says will be given us?


Forgive me for reducing your post to what you see above. I feel what was left is at the heart of the issue. Christ said the Holy Spirit would guide "the Apostles" into all the truth. The Apostles were the religious authority the Holy Spirit spoke through and it's certain this is evidenced by Acts chapter 15. For the Prot system to be correct the Holy Spirit did not continue acting through "the Church" after Acts 15 and instead acted through "individuals". This thought has always caused me to seriously wonder how much thought has been put into protesting against the Holy Spirit.

Most SDA's insist that rejection of Ellen White equates to a rejection of the Holy Spirit.

[reddogs]

Forgive me for reducing your post to what you see above. I feel what was left is at the heart of the issue. Christ said the Holy Spirit would guide "the Apostles" into all the truth. The Apostles were the religious authority the Holy Spirit spoke through and it's certain this is evidenced by Acts chapter 15. For the Prot system to be correct the Holy Spirit did not continue acting through "the Church" after Acts 15 and instead acted through "individuals". This thought has always caused me to seriously wonder how much thought has been put into protesting against the Holy Spirit.

Most SDA's insist that rejection of Ellen White equates to a rejection of the Holy Spirit.

"the Church" was always the believers, and when the early church let in pagan practices and beliefs, the next thing they did was go after those who still believed....

[Byfaithalone1]

Just for the sake of argument........:doh:I dont do that.......

You don't do what? You don't address people's posts directly? I think I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

Now if you are seeking truth, we can share and discuss what understanding we've been given so that we can both grow in Christ......

Oh, I'm definitely seeking truth, and I make no claims that I have found all truth. However, I also am not convinced that your understanding of truth is, in fact, truth. I guess the best way to explore that is to engage one another in good faith, dealing directly with the things that are written. Let's start with a direct answer to this question:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"


BFA

[reddogs]

You don't do what? You don't address people's posts directly? I think I'm not understanding what you're saying here.



Oh, I'm definitely seeking truth, and I make no claims that I have found all truth. However, I also am not convinced that your understanding of truth is, in fact, truth. I guess the best way to explore that is to engage one another in good faith, dealing directly with the things that are written. Let's start with a direct answer to this question:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"


BFA


In your opinion, in the parable, which catagory do they fall in......?

Luke 8

The Parable of the Sower

.......9His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
" 'though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25248a)]

11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

[VictorC]

In your opinion, in the parable, which catagory do they fall in......?

Luke 8

The Parable of the Sower

.......9His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
" 'though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25248a)]

11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
In my opinion, the former Adventists have grown from a fruitful planting of His Word, and remind me of the verse not included in your quote:
Luke 8:8
And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold....

My point would be that the formers I have encountered are seeking God first and foremost, and the idea of denominational walls aren't in their way. They have a basis of Scriptural knowledge that has indeed grown a hundredfold during their search to understand the doctrinal positions of their former church home and the contrast they have with Scripture.

That's my humble opinion.
BFA asked a direct question that I am curious to see a response to:
Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

It is probably necessary to determine what the object of the faith in question is directed toward - Jesus Christ, or Ellen White? Determining this will have an influence in the answer most will provide.

Victor

[reddogs]

In my opinion, the former Adventists have grown from a fruitful planting of His Word, and remind me of the verse not included in your quote:
Luke 8:8
And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold....

My point would be that the formers I have encountered are seeking God first and foremost, and the idea of denominational walls aren't in their way. They have a basis of Scriptural knowledge that has indeed grown a hundredfold during their search to understand the doctrinal positions of their former church home and the contrast they have with Scripture.

That's my humble opinion.
BFA asked a direct question that I am curious to see a response to:
Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

It is probably necessary to determine what the object of the faith in question is directed toward - Jesus Christ, or Ellen White? Determining this will have an influence in the answer most will provide.

Victor

So if they fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold, why is it all they seem to do is angrily attack the church and its beliefs and doctrines. Why not just bare fruit a hundredfold and share Christ and His love, instead of what has occured that causes so much harm to what should be their brothers and sisters in Christ.........

[VictorC]

So if they fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold, why is it all they seem to do is angrily attack the church and its beliefs and doctrines. Why not just bare fruit a hundredfold and share Christ and His love, instead of what has occured that causes so much harm to what should be their brothers and sisters in Christ.........
I'm not too sure where your perception of anger is coming from, Red. When someone preaches Christ and Him crucified, they are naturally going to walk away from the extra-Biblical additions to the Gospel of redemption in His Blood.

So far you haven't answered the questions posed before you.

Victor

[reddogs]

I'm not too sure where your perception of anger is coming from, Red. When someone preaches Christ and Him crucified, they are naturally going to walk away from the extra-Biblical additions to the Gospel of redemption in His Blood.

So far you haven't answered the questions posed before you.

Victor
You dont really want an answer as you see what you want to see, and we'll leave it at that......

[VictorC]

You dont really want an answer as you see what you want to see, and we'll leave it at that......
That isn't conducive to honest dialog, is it?
I have been very up-front, and I know BFA is very transparent in what he believes, and why.

But, you have judged me and are ready to write me off without discourse.
That is prejudice, vile evil icky yucky prejudice you're displaying, Red.

Victor

[reddogs]

That isn't conducive to honest dialog, is it?
I have been very up-front, and I know BFA is very transparent in what he believes, and why.

But, you have judged me and are ready to write me off without discourse.
That is prejudice, vile evil icky yucky prejudice you're displaying, Red.

Victor

You forgot I've been to CARM, and know the drill with presenting 'questions'.....

If you want to share, lets do that.....but the other stuff leave it out..

[VictorC]

You forgot I've been to CARM, and know the drill with presenting 'questions'.....
I never forgot, Red. You may have felt cornered all too often, but in each instance the motive behind apparently leading questions is to make the respondant think about their answer before they dig themselves into a pit of their own making.

It has happened to me, too - DrPatti has in the past made me think very hard where I was going, and certainly Kevin Morgan has also used that method. It is only by realizing that we have no answers in and of ourselves that you find yourself in total submission to the Word of God - and then the answers just simply flow with ease, and you never fall into a pit of His making.

That is the beautiful intent behind discussion forums.
They are meant to force you to learn, or else perish if you're more stubborn than the process the forum was actually designed for.

And yes, it forced me on a fast learning curve that a couple of years in seminary isn't likely to match.

If you want to share, lets do that.....but the other stuff leave it out..
I have shared. Up front, very open, and I'm not all that shy. It is your turn to add the missing side of the dialog:

BFA asked a direct question that I am curious to see a response to:
Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Also, is the faith lost in Ellen White considered to be a loss of faith in Jesus Christ?

Simple, direct, no tricks, and I don't dig pits for others to fall into.
I am genuinely curious to see your (and others) response to this line of questioning as an indicator of your attitude toward the former Adventists.

Remember from our time together at CARM that I haven't been an Adventist myself, so I have the unique advantage to critique everyone's response equally.

I am in submission only to God's Spirit and his Word.

Victor

[reddogs]

...

[reddogs]

I never forgot, Red. You may have felt cornered all too often, but in each instance the motive behind apparently leading questions is to make the respondant think about their answer before they dig themselves into a pit of their own making.

It has happened to me, too - DrPatti has in the past made me think very hard where I was going, and certainly Kevin Morgan has also used that method. It is only by realizing that we have no answers in and of ourselves that you find yourself in total submission to the Word of God - and then the answers just simply flow with ease, and you never fall into a pit of His making.

That is the beautiful intent behind discussion forums.
They are meant to force you to learn, or else perish if you're more stubborn than the process the forum was actually designed for.

And yes, it forced me on a fast learning curve that a couple of years in seminary isn't likely to match.


I have shared. Up front, very open, and I'm not all that shy. It is your turn to add the missing side of the dialog:

BFA asked a direct question that I am curious to see a response to:
Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Also, is the faith lost in Ellen White considered to be a loss of faith in Jesus Christ?

Simple, direct, no tricks, and I don't dig pits for others to fall into.
I am genuinely curious to see your (and others) response to this line of questioning as an indicator of your attitude toward the former Adventists.

Remember from our time together at CARM that I haven't been an Adventist myself, so I have the unique advantage to critique everyone's response equally.

I am in submission only to God's Spirit and his Word.

Victor

You show one thing then the other using words which certainly lack anything edifying to say the least...."vile evil icky yucky prejudice ", when you get to the point that you are ready for sharing let me know....

[gcfrankie]

Reddog,
I have a question for your. What belief are you refering to? The belief in Jesus Christ first and then the church (EGW) second or the other way around?
Why can people not take the Apostles for what they wrote and not having to add to them what anyone else thinks they are trying to say? The apostles were inspired by God!
gc

[VictorC]

You show one thing then the other using words which certainly lack anything edifying to say the least...."vile evil icky yucky prejudice ", when you get to the point that you are ready for sharing let me know....
I used that selection of adjectives attached to 'prejudiced'.
That is because I recognized that you have already judged the response I will have on whatever you write.

And you have judged me without even having discourse.
That is prejudice, and you're still finding a reason not to answer a question regarding what a former has/hasn't lost faith in.

As I posted earlier, I have shared already.
It is your turn.

Victor

[ricker]

So if they fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold, why is it all they seem to do is angrily attack the church and its beliefs and doctrines. Why not just bare fruit a hundredfold and share Christ and His love, instead of what has occured that causes so much harm to what should be their brothers and sisters in Christ.........

You know Red, I'm not sure if you are speaking of me in particular, but I come here for the study aspect of things. I do have a life other than here and am active in my church and community and pray that I am spreading the Gospel and that I am a good representative for Jesus. I don't appreciate the insinuation that we are all mean and angry all we do is attack fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. This is the place where we can study and learn and grow in certain theological aspects of our lives.
God bless! Ricker

[reddogs]

You know Red, I'm not sure if you are speaking of me in particular, but I come here for the study aspect of things. I do have a life other than here and am active in my church and community and pray that I am spreading the Gospel and that I am a good representative for Jesus. I don't appreciate the insinuation that we are all mean and angry all we do is attack fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. This is the place where we can study and learn and grow in certain theological aspects of our lives.
God bless! Ricker

Ricker,

You share what you have and listen to the response, I see your sincerity in your posts and am happy to go over the Gospel and the other issues with you.

Red

[reddogs]

Reddog,
I have a question for your. What belief are you refering to? The belief in Jesus Christ first and then the church (EGW) second or the other way around?
Why can people not take the Apostles for what they wrote and not having to add to them what anyone else thinks they are trying to say? The apostles were inspired by God!
gc

The Holy Spirit guides you into all truth, this is why Christ said not to reject as we would be turning from what leads us to Christ, and lets us recognize what is Christ centered and His testimony. The whole point of the scriptures is to lead you to Christ, anyone can read words in the Bible, but true understanding requires the one studying to spiritually grasp its truths and hear what Christ is saying through His words and through the scriptures from the first day of Creation.

[Byfaithalone1]

In your opinion, in the parable, which catagory do they fall in......?

With all due respect, I notice that you keep avoiding my question. I remain interested in a direct answer.

However, as I wait for a direct answer from you, I remain as happy as ever to continue the dialogue and to answer your questions. We may differ as to what the true gospel of Jesus Christ really is, but I believe that, when a person abandons a false gospel for the sake of the genuine gospel, such a person could represent the good soil described in Verse 15. I would guess that this is how most SDAs would view a former Catholic who comes into their fellowship.

Now, I remain interested in your direct response to my question:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

And, as your responding to that question, I also have a follow-up question:

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

[Byfaithalone1]

So if they fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold, why is it all they seem to do is angrily attack the church and its beliefs and doctrines. Why not just bare fruit a hundredfold and share Christ and His love, instead of what has occured that causes so much harm to what should be their brothers and sisters in Christ.........

This is quite a judgment that you have pronounced upon former SDAs. I have now requested several times that you provide evidence that I have ever attacked SDAs. Since you have failed to provide such an example, I must wonder what it is that you are seeing. Is this an example of the type of post you would like to see from me:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45610274&postcount=9

My posts have a consistent theme. Christ came to earth to die for the sins of man. He did so because of His great love and compassion for us and our condition. It is by His sacrifice that we are saved. He knows that we are incapable of saving, sanctifying or purifying ourselves. It is because of His goodness that HE creates His fruit in us. We have nothing to boast about in ourselves, but everything to boast about in our amazing Savior.

If you've missed this consistent message from me, I would encourage you to read my posts more carefully. I believe my posts consistently declare the love, grace and forgiveness of our amazing God.

BFA

[Byfaithalone1]

You dont really want an answer as you see what you want to see, and we'll leave it at that......

I believe that Victor, who has never been an SDA, really does want an answer and will be able to take the answer at face value. However, because I can truly only speak for myself, I will reiterate again that I am very interested in a direct answer. Since you believe that SDAism has the truth, it would seem reasonable that you would want to share that truth with those who have questions.

BFA

[VictorC]

I believe that Victor, who has never been an SDA, really does want an answer and will be able to take the answer at face value. However, because I can truly only speak for myself, I will reiterate again that I am very interested in a direct answer. Since you believe that SDAism has the truth, it would seem reasonable that you would want to share that truth with those who have questions.

BFA
I endorse the response you opine.
I have tried very hard not to judge Reddog's opinion from a blank sheet of paper. I hope that is apparent to him.

Victor

[NightEternal]

Is this an example of the type of post you would like to see from me: http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45610274&postcount=9

Pythons, you do realize that we have crackpots, freaks and froot loops all throughout this denomination and that not all Adventists aren't like those fanatics?

I have to stand by my statement as being 100% accurate and true. It is no big suprise and it certainly is not news.

Of course you formers know very well we have loons in this denomination. Threads on CARM where some of your members are making very similar statements to my own testify to this very thing.

Wether speaking the truth is 'attacking' or not remains in the eye of the beholder. But I certainly hope no rational thinking SDA would ever try to maintain members of independent ministries such as Shepherd's Rod are anything but fanatical wackos.

[Byfaithalone1]

Wether speaking the truth is 'attacking' or not remains in the eye of the beholder.

I agree completely. Although there are better and worse ways to articulate one's thoughts, it would seem that some SDAs (but certainly not all) are offended when any poster writes anything that would suggest that a teaching of SDAism is not a Biblical fact. Nevertheless, I do hope that Red will one day answer my two questions directly:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

[reddogs]

I agree completely. Although there are better and worse ways to articulate one's thoughts, it would seem that some SDAs (but certainly not all) are offended when any poster writes anything that would suggest that a teaching of SDAism is not a Biblical fact. Nevertheless, I do hope that Red will one day answer my two questions directly:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

Not if they are presented in the CARM 'drill', as I know how that goes.... the answer is not really wanted or needed, but it can be used for other purposes.........

[Byfaithalone1]

Not if they are presented in the CARM 'drill'

I'm not familiar with that term and don't know what it means. I thought we had agreed to leave CARM over in CARM. What gives?

as I know how that goes....

Unfortunately, I don't.

the answer is not really wanted or needed, but it can be used for other purposes.........

The answer is desired and welcomed. One might wonder why you are so afraid to offer it. Is it because your answer might reflect negatively upon your belief system? I'm still hoping for some discussion in this discussion forum. When you're ready, here are the pending questions:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

[catlover]

edit

[reddogs]

I'm not familiar with that term and don't know what it means. I thought we had agreed to leave CARM over in CARM. What gives?



Unfortunately, I don't.



The answer is desired and welcomed. One might wonder why you are so afraid to offer it. Is it because your answer might reflect negatively upon your belief system? I'm still hoping for some discussion in this discussion forum. When you're ready, here are the pending questions:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

Its throwing questions one after the other probing for a breach, there is no sharing, no real quest for answers.......

[VictorC]

ChrisCarol what I have observed in many Evangleical/Baptist churches is, it's a cheap Gospel nd leaves me pretty empty. Nothing in The Bible really means anything other than John 3:16.
1 Peter 1:18-21
18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Byfaithalone1]

Its throwing questions one after the other probing for a breach, there is no sharing, no real quest for answers.......

Seeking a better understanding of your position, I've asked 2 questions. I have not thrown one question after another probing for a breach. You have merely supposed negative motives and then assigned them to me. If there is nothing to hide, then I would assume that you have answers to these 2 simple questions. Here they are again:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

[Byfaithalone1]

ChrisCarol what I have observed in many Evangleical/Baptist churches is, it's a cheap Gospel nd leaves me pretty empty. Nothing in The Bible really means anything other than John 3:16.

Are there principles directly relating to the gospel of Jesus Christ that are not set out in John 3:16-17?

BFA

[reddogs]

Seeking a better understanding of your position, I've asked 2 questions. I have not thrown one question after another probing for a breach. You have merely supposed negative motives and then assigned them to me. If there is nothing to hide, then I would assume that you have answers to these 2 simple questions. Here they are again:

Q: Do you believe that those who have set aside membership in the SDA denomination have "lost faith?"

Q: Is "faith" tied to accepting the teachings of the SDA denomination?

BFA

Here at CF we dialog to share ideas with our brothers and sister not interrogate as at some other forums......

Main Entry: 1di·a·logue http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?dialog07.wav=dialogue')) Variant(s): also di·a·log http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?dialog07.wav=dialog')) \ˈdī-ə-ˌlȯg, -ˌläg\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English dialoge, from Anglo-French dialogue, from Latin dialogus, from Greek dialogos, from dialegesthai to converse, from dia- + legein to speak — more at legend (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legend) Date: 13th century 1: a written composition in which two or more characters are represented as conversing

2 a: a conversation between two or more persons; also : a similar exchange between a person and something else (as a computer) b: an exchange of ideas and opinions <organized a series of dialogues on human rights> c: a discussion between representatives of parties to a conflict that is aimed at resolution <a constructive dialogue between loggers and environmentalists>



Main Entry: in·ter·ro·gate http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?interr10.wav=interrogate'))Pronunciation: \in-ˈter-ə-ˌgāt, -ˈte-rə-\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): in·ter·ro·gat·ed; in·ter·ro·gat·ing Etymology: Latin interrogatus, past participle of interrogare, from inter- + rogare to ask — more at right (http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/right)Date: 15th century

1 : to question formally and systematically

[TrustAndObey]

Are there principles directly relating to the gospel of Jesus Christ that are not set out in John 3:16-17?

BFA

Sure there are. What did Christ say we were to do if we DO believe in Him? WHO gets eternal life? Is eternal life in hellfire still not indeed eternal life? etc etc

There are several beliefs that stem from John 3:16-17.

[catlover]

1 Peter 1:18-21
18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


Look The Bible is a Holy Book but I don't like it used as a text book.

[Byfaithalone1]

a written composition in which two or more characters are represented as conversing

How is this possible when one of the characters is evasive?

BFA

[Byfaithalone1]

Sure there are.

Is salvation by grace through faith alone. Or is salvation obtained by grace and some other ingredient? What is that missing ingredient?

What did Christ say we were to do if we DO believe in Him?

I'm unaware of any passage of Scripture that indicates that man does anything to merit his own salvation. Even faith is a gift of God.

WHO gets eternal life?

Recipients of the free gift described in both John 3 and Ephesians 2.

There are several beliefs that stem from John 3:16-17.

Are such beliefs salvational? If so, which ones?

BFA

[VictorC]

Here at CF we dialog to share ideas with our brothers and sister not interrogate as at some other forums......
I for one already know the difference.
Dialog infers two or more chatting back and forth, asking questions and giving answers, and vice versa.

When someone leaves Adventism and continues proclaiming the Gospel in some other discipline (congregation, denomination, etc), is it your opinion that this person has lost faith in Jesus Christ?

Please answer this incredibly simple question.

You already read from me that I consider the person I describe is still a Christian and hasn't lost anything in their relationship with Jesus.
I am curious to know how you and the other Adventists on this forum would respond to such a question.

Please dialog in a constructive manner, rather than determining that anything you have to opine is rejected without consideration of even reading your opinion.

Victor

[TrustAndObey]

Oops, BFA, you accidentally forgot to answer one of my questions from that post.

I'm unaware of any passage of Scripture that indicates that man does anything to merit his own salvation. Even faith is a gift of God.

Well, let's go straight to our Lord's own words.

Matt 10:17 And when He was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to Him, and asked Him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest Thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Gotta get to class!

[TrustAndObey]

Even selling whatever we have takes effort, does it not?

Our Lord doesn't want a robot.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


All I have, I will freely give. I love Him back.

[Byfaithalone1]

Oops, BFA, you accidentally forgot to answer one of my questions from that post.

Thanks for assuming it was an accident. I intended to be responsive and I'm not sure what I missed. Perhaps you can help me out?

Well, let's go straight to our Lord's own words.

OK.

there is none good but one, that is, God.

What does the above-referenced phrase mean to you?

I too am running late and will respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.

Have a good evening,
BFA

[VictorC]

Look The Bible is a Holy Book but I don't like it used as a text book.
Does this indicate that the Bible is an unapproachable icon to admire from a safe distance, or should we crack open the binding to see the message contained inside?

I am still curious to know what aspect of the Gospel you think is "cheap". Are we to judge it by the actions of frail people in another congregation, or is there a better standard we can look to?

Victor

[catlover]

Does this indicate that the Bible is an unapproachable icon to admire from a safe distance, or should we crack open the binding to see the message contained inside?

I am still curious to know what aspect of the Gospel you think is "cheap". Are we to judge it by the actions of frail people in another congregation, or is there a better standard we can look to?

Victor

I think it has been cheapened by the fact that Only certain passages are brought up-all other aspects of Scripture is pushed to the side and nothing means anything-unless it's a "hot button" political conservative issue.

[reddogs]

How is this possible when one of the characters is evasive?

BFA

Maybe if it is approached as a conversation between brothers, not a interrogation room in a Stalinist Gulag, and the bold large headers are more for propaganda than a honest discussion, and there is no need to hurry the other person or be forceful or pushy, and discussing the point and not hammer questions into the other person using words as a weapon. And angry words never help in any conversation, that would be my suggestion, and I can wait patiently for that type of discussion so that sharing can come about........

Red

[VictorC]

Does this indicate that the Bible is an unapproachable icon to admire from a safe distance, or should we crack open the binding to see the message contained inside?

I am still curious to know what aspect of the Gospel you think is "cheap". Are we to judge it by the actions of frail people in another congregation, or is there a better standard we can look to?

Victor
I think it has been cheapened by the fact that Only certain passages are brought up-all other aspects of Scripture is pushed to the side and nothing means anything-unless it's a "hot button" political conservative issue.
In other words, you believe the Gospel has been cheapened by the actions of human agents, the frail members of a congregation that I mentioned earlier.

The contents of the Bible haven't changed.
This is why reliance on its contents as a textbook is essential if we are to know what the Gospel really is.

Isn't this plain statement one you can wholeheartedly agree with?

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Victor

[TrustAndObey]

Is the gospel clear or confusing?

It’s so simple even a child can understand it! In fact, children like connect-the-dots….so let’s play a round of that…..

Is salvation by grace through faith alone. Or is salvation obtained by grace and some other ingredient? What is that missing ingredient?

Faith in what? Christ? Absolutely salvation is by grace through faith in HIM!!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Can we really stop there? What did Christ say we should do if we DO believe in Him? (here’s that “other ingredient”)

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Those are straight from our Lord’s own lips BFA.

What works is Christ referring to in that verse? He’s told us that if we believe Him, we shall do His works also. Do you think HE was telling us to earn our salvation?

3 verses later: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Christ is the only Teacher I’m aware of that people say taught us something so we wouldn’t have to do it ourselves.

When I taught my son to tie his shoes, it was so he could do it for himself afterwards.

I'm unaware of any passage of Scripture that indicates that man does anything to merit his own salvation.

I just showed it to you…..John 14:12.

Even faith is a gift of God.

Can you provide scripture that says faith is a gift? I’m not sure I understand….are you saying that God has to have faith in something (what exactly?) and therefore He has to give some of His faith to us?

Are you referring to Ephesians 2:8--For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I don’t think FAITH is the gift referred to in that verse, I think it’s GRACE!!

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?

You stir up questions in my heart brother BFA:

If faith is a gift of God, why would there even be a question of whether or not Christ would find it on earth when He came here?
Why doesn’t everyone have it if it’s a gift?
Why doesn’t everyone believe in Christ?
What can we do to receive the gift of faith? Anything?
Thomas believed in Christ, so if faith is a gift contingent upon Christ, why didn’t Thomas have it?

The beautiful words of our Savior tell us what faith really is: John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

THAT is faith BFA!!!! Believing even though you cannot see.

I see a lot of verses in scripture about faith, but oddly, they seem to refer to people’s faith, not God’s.

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

I see Christ telling people that their faith was very small: Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

I see where we can ask for more faith: Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. What did Jesus do? Did He “give” them anything other than words of wisdom? (read the rest of Luke 17…the answer is no)?

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Do any of those verses refer to God’s faith or our OWN faith?

Are such beliefs salvational? If so, which ones?

I’ll let Christ answer this question too!

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It’s all salvational BFA. It’s all the Word of God, to be rightly divided, studied, treasured, and upheld.

2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

We can’t preach the Word, if we don’t know it and we cannot rebuke those that teach contrary to it if we don’t know it.

[TrustAndObey]

In other words, you believe the Gospel has been cheapened by the actions of human agents, the frail members of a congregation that I mentioned earlier.

The contents of the Bible haven't changed.
This is why reliance on its contents as a textbook is essential if we are to know what the Gospel really is.

Isn't this plain statement one you can wholeheartedly agree with?

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Victor

Hey BFA, look!! Victor agrees with me! The Holy Scripture are able to make you wise for salvation through FAITH!!!

It's ALL salvational!!!

[TrustAndObey]

Thanks for assuming it was an accident. I intended to be responsive and I'm not sure what I missed. Perhaps you can help me out?

Certainly!!

I asked: is eternal life in hellfire still eternal life? Does John 3:16 promise those that DON'T believe in Christ eternal life?


What does the above-referenced phrase mean to you?

That is....God. Christ said there was none good but one....God.....and He didn't understand why they were calling Him (Christ) good.

[TrustAndObey]

Catlover, some people haven't figured out yet that they aren't at CARM anymore.

[TrustAndObey]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

What we do with that faith is completely contingent upon US. Some people's faith fades away, some people's faith grows stronger.

[ChrisCarol]

Make sure it's "Every" word you listen to. see my points in your quote.



It’s so simple even a child can understand it! In fact, children like connect-the-dots….so let’s play a round of that…..



Faith in what? Christ? Absolutely salvation is by grace through faith in HIM!!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Can we really stop there? What did Christ say we should do if we DO believe in Him? (here’s that “other ingredient”)

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Those are straight from our Lord’s own lips BFA.

What works is Christ referring to in that verse? He’s told us that if we believe Him, we shall do His works also. Do you think HE was telling us to earn our salvation?

3 verses later: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Christ is the only Teacher I’m aware of that people say taught us something so we wouldn’t have to do it ourselves.

When I taught my son to tie his shoes, it was so he could do it for himself afterwards.



I just showed it to you…..John 14:12.



Can you provide scripture that says faith is a gift? I’m not sure I understand….are you saying that God has to have faith in something (what exactly?) and therefore He has to give some of His faith to us?

Are you referring to Ephesians 2:8--For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I don’t think FAITH is the gift referred to in that verse, I think it’s GRACE!!

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?

You stir up questions in my heart brother BFA:

If faith is a gift of God, why would there even be a question of whether or not Christ would find it on earth when He came here?
Why doesn’t everyone have it if it’s a gift?
Why doesn’t everyone believe in Christ?
What can we do to receive the gift of faith? Anything?Thomas believed in Christ, so if faith is a gift contingent upon Christ, why didn’t Thomas have it?

The beautiful words of our Savior tell us what faith really is: John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

THAT is faith BFA!!!! Believing even though you cannot see.

I see a lot of verses in scripture about faith, but oddly, they seem to refer to people’s faith, not God’s.

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

I see Christ telling people that their faith was very small: Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

I see where we can ask for more faith: Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. What did Jesus do? Did He “give” them anything other than words of wisdom? (read the rest of Luke 17…the answer is no)?

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Do any of those verses refer to God’s faith or our OWN faith?



I’ll let Christ answer this question too!

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And these are His Words:

Dueteronomy 18:18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Now in Matthew 17 God says this:

"This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

This was just after Peter told Jesus that He would build a tabernacle; one for Elijah and one for Moses and one for Jesus.

Now I have listened to Jesus thru His Word and thru His Holy Spirit speaking to me and He has not in either way told me to keep the Sabbath.



It’s all salvational BFA. It’s all the Word of God, to be rightly divided, studied, treasured, and upheld.

2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

We can’t preach the Word, if we don’t know it and we cannot rebuke those that teach contrary to it if we don’t know it.

Again I say make sure you know all of the word not just the one some man/woman have taken and declared what their meaning is.

[TrustAndObey]

Now I have listened to Jesus thru His Word and thru His Holy Spirit speaking to me and He has not in either way told me to keep the Sabbath.

Chris, I am not telling you to keep the Sabbath either. Every man must be convinced in his OWN mind.

It is a personal walk that we all have to take with Him.

In my walk, I absolutely did feel the Guidance to keep the Sabbath commandment (all of the commandments written on stone actually, but people that come here seem obsessed with just this ONE).

I saw Christ rebuking the Pharisees for saying He broke the Sabbath by healing a man, and I saw Christ telling them it is lawful (i.e. full of law...not lawless) to do good on the Sabbath day.

I think it wasn't just His words that He taught with. He also taught by example.

Again I say make sure you know all of the word not just the one some man/woman have taken and declared what their meaning is.

You haven't been here very long so I'll tell you what I've told everyone else in the past. I have never read an EGW book. I read the Bible while I wasn't even going to ANY church (and hadn't been in a church in YEARS).

I came to every belief I have on my own. You can believe me or you can doubt me, but it's the absolute truth.

[TrustAndObey]

Here's a few more observations:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believing, in the words of Christ.......


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent me.

That last verse I posted is very interesting, no?

[Sophia7]

Can you provide scripture that says faith is a gift?

You provided one example yourself:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Here are a couple more:Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
________________________________________________

JAS 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

[TrustAndObey]

Here are a couple more:
Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

KJV, Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

"Our" was added by the translators.

He is the author and finisher of faith. We choose whether or not we put our faith in Him.


________________________________________________


JAS 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

KJV, JAS 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

In all the versions that say "to be", it was added by the translators.

Not all the poor in the world ARE rich in faith, obviously, so I think the KJV of this verse is more realistic.

[catlover]

Catlover, some people haven't figured out yet that they aren't at CARM anymore.

CARM is a dreadful cult like web site-it is a "lovely" site for pointing out the alleged "mistakes" of other denominations and then applying the label " cult" to that denomination.

I was in a chat room and stated something negative about CARM and people became extremely upset-sort of like the way Benny Hinn lover's become enraged when he gets criticized so who's in a cult?

[Byfaithalone1]

CARM is a dreadful cult like web site . . .

. . . . that is frequented by members of a number of different denominations, including SDAs. I wonder if such language would be tolerated if it was directed at denomination rather than a website.

it is a "lovely" site for pointing out the alleged "mistakes" of other denominations and then applying the label " cult" to that denomination.

I don't believe I have ever attached the label "cult" to any denomination. You paint with a very wide brush.

I was in a chat room and stated something negative about CARM and people became extremely upset-sort of like the way Benny Hinn lover's become enraged when he gets criticized so who's in a cult?

Sort of like the way that some posters here refer to this site as "ours?"

BFA

[VictorC]

Hey BFA, look!! Victor agrees with me! The Holy Scripture are able to make you wise for salvation through FAITH!!!

It's ALL salvational!!!
I'm glad that you agree with me, that salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ. That is in antithesis to the law, as simply illustrated in verses such as these:

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 7:1-4
1: Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2: For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3: So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

As you observed in my earlier quote from 2 Timothy 3:14-17, the Scriptures -all of them- portray the details of an assurance that has been offered as a gift by the Blood of Jesus Christ. The law of Moses (which includes the old covenant, the ten commandments - see Deuteronomy 4:13) was the schoolmaster that was created to lead us to the knowledge of our need for a saviour.

But the law never saved anyone.

Victor

[catlover]

. . . . that is frequented by members of a number of different denominations, including SDAs. I wonder if such language would be tolerated if it was directed at denomination rather than a website.



I don't believe I have ever attached the label "cult" to any denomination. You paint with a very wide brush.



Sort of like the way that some posters here refer to this site as "ours?"

BFA


Isn't this specific board for Adventists? Frankly it's not uncommon for Evangelicals to bother Adventists about their beliefs. Broad brush or no, it's a fact.

CARM is well known for labeling certain denominations as a "non Christian cult". http://www.carm.org/cults/cultgrid.htm I have not been on that site for a few years now, but I do know they had the Adventists and The Roman Catholics listed as a Non Christian cult-it would appear now that I visited that site again they stopped that. There is some progress.

[VictorC]

CARM is a dreadful cult like web site-it is a "lovely" site for pointing out the alleged "mistakes" of other denominations and then applying the label " cult" to that denomination.

I was in a chat room and stated something negative about CARM and people became extremely upset-sort of like the way Benny Hinn lover's become enraged when he gets criticized so who's in a cult?
A couple of days ago I mentioned to TrustandObey that her complaints were akin to speaking behind someone's back and making comments they would not enjoy having exposed to the public. This is another instance of making such comments behind someone's back. I copied your comments to CARM so that those accused by your comments can see what others are saying about them.

I would be happy to provide the link to the post, if an administrator verifies that posting links to other forums is permissable in accordance to CF's rules. Doing so is specifically agains't CARM's rules, and I assume there may be a common position taken here by CF's administrators.

In my post I did mention that you appear to take reliance on second-hand information, since the SDA section appears in the 'heterodox" area instead of the 'religions' where cults appear.

Victor

[TrustAndObey]

I'm glad that you agree with me, that salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ. That is in antithesis to the law, as simply illustrated in verses such as these:

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

So are you implying that verse says that it was Moses who said “Thou shalt not”? Did Moses carve the words on stone with his finger? Did God refer to the Sabbath as “MOSES’ holy day” or “MY holy day”?

Some laws were added BECAUSE OF sin. (Galatians 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Scripture refers to the Law of Moses several times. Are you familiar with those laws? The book of the law? Ordinances (still referred to as “law”)? Sound familiar at all?

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

Look at all the things in the law of Moses that pointed to Christ!! The unblemished Lamb, circumcision, etc etc

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Was circumcision written on stone?

I’m not sure how you think “thou shalt not murder” pointed to Christ.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

BINGO!! Man is not justified by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ. Christ Himself told us that IF we believe in Him, we would do as He did also. He was our Teacher!

ROM. 7:7 What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had notknown sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

ROM. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Is there still sin in the world Victor?

Aren’t we told to CONFESS our sins and be cleansed of all unrighteousness? “Thou shalt not covet”…..sound familiar? Look what he says about it 5 verses later Rom 5:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.) It doesn’t get any plainer than that.

Romans 7:1-4
1: Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2: For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3: So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

As you observed in my earlier post from 2 Timothy 3:14-17, the Scriptures -all of them- portray the details of an assurance that has been offered as a gift by the Blood of Jesus Christ. The law of Moses (which includes the old covenant, the ten commandments - see Deuteronomy 4:13) was the schoolmaster that was created to lead us to the knowledge of our need for a saviour.

But the law never saved anyone.

Victor

Of course the law never saved anyone. Confession of sins, atonement for sins…..it’s a reoccurring principle throughout scripture!

I think you have your laws mixed up. David said God’s law is PERFECT (Psalms 19:7), so that verse in Hebrews obviously isn’t talking about God’s law on stone or it would be a COMPLETE contradiction!

Jesus paid our debt of sin. Does that mean we can do whatever we want now? Of course not Victor, and you know it.

Grace wouldn’t even be necessary without the law!

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

[TrustAndObey]

A couple of days ago I mentioned to TrustandObey that her complaints were akin to speaking behind someone's back and making comments they would not enjoy having exposed to the public. This is another instance of making such comments behind someone's back. I copied your comments to CARM so that those accused by your comments can see what others are saying about them.

I would be happy to provide the link to the post, if an administrator verifies that posting links to other forums is permissable in accordance to CF's rules. Doing so is specifically agains't CARM's rules, and I assume there may be a common position taken here by CF's administrators.

In my post I did mention that you appear to take reliance on second-hand information, since the SDA section appears in the 'heterodox" area instead of the 'religions' where cults appear.

Victor

The fun never ends does it? I didn't talk about specific people on CARM, just the "spirit" that is there.

I am finding it hilarious how you, Lebesgue, and Sophia are basically calling in the recruits from over there to come here. I'll save this post and a couple of others. ;)

I thought you were doing a fine job all by yourself Victor. I didn't know you needed backup.

[Byfaithalone1]

Isn't this specific board for Adventists?

No, in fact, this specific subforum, the discuss and debate subforum is for anyone interested in discussing issues relating to SDAism.

Frankly it's not uncommon for Evangelicals to bother Adventists about their beliefs. Broad brush or no, it's a fact.

Well, if you're going to paint with that wide of a brush, wouldn't include all groups, including SDAs?

CARM is well known for labeling certain denominations as a "non Christian cult".

CARM does not list SDAism as a cult.

(http://www.carm.org/cults/cultgrid.htm)http://www.carm.org/cults/cultgrid.htm (http://www.carm.org/cults/cultgrid.htm)

SDAism is not referenced anywhere in the above-listed link.

I have not been on that site for a few years now, but I do know they had the Adventists and The Roman Catholics listed as a Non Christian cult

I've posted on CARM for 4 years and I've never seen SDAism listed as a cult. In fact, although CARM places certain denominations under categories, CULT is not one of the listed categories.

-it would appear now that I visited that site again they stopped that. There is some progress.

You cannot stop that which was never started.

BFA

[sciana]

Can we really stop there? What did Christ say we should do if we DO believe in Him? (here’s that “other ingredient”)

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Those are straight from our Lord’s own lips BFA.

What works is Christ referring to in that verse? He’s told us that if we believe Him, we shall do His works also. Do you think HE was telling us to earn our salvation?

3 verses later: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Interesting. Based on your interpretation of John 14:12 what are the works greater than what Jesus did that we are to do?


John 14 "8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. 12"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."


Also, in the preceding verse (verse 11) do you believe that Jesus is saying to believe on Him because He kept the 10 commandments?

[catlover]

Victor you prove my point about the cult like devotion to that web site...I will continue to post my opinion on that web site.

[catlover]

You cannot stop that which was never started.

BFA

IT sure did used to post The Roman Catholic Church and The Seventh Day Adventists was a cult....that is why I thought it was a pretty silly web site.

[TrustAndObey]

Victor you prove my point about the cult like devotion to that web site...I will continue to post my opinion on that web site.

I think BFA proved your point too actually. I asked him specific questions, gave scripture about what Christ told us to do IF we believe in Him, and instead of addressing any of THOSE posts directly to him, he came in and defended CARM and left. LOL!!

The Church of CARM. :preach:

Interesting. Based on your interpretation of John 14:12 what are the works greater than what Jesus did that we are to do?


John 14 "8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. 12"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."


Also, in the preceding verse (verse 11) do you believe that Jesus is saying to believe on Him because He kept the 10 commandments?

Hello Sciana,

We already know Christ “kept” the 10 Commandments as the Son of Man or He wouldn’t have been sinless. He is God, He wrote them.

The verses have a lot of meanings that I don’t mind going into, but my main point was to show that Christ said “IF” you believe in Me, here are the things that you will do……….

Some people just believe (John 3:16). Others obey like He repeatedly told us to, which is what He said we’d do if we truly do believe in Him. Everybody wants a Savior, but not everyone seems to want a Lord.

[sciana]

Hello Sciana,

We already know Christ “kept” the 10 Commandments as the Son of Man or He wouldn’t have been sinless. He is God, He wrote them.

The verses have a lot of meanings that I don’t mind going into, but my main point was to show that Christ said “IF” you believe in Me, here are the things that you will do……….

Some people just believe (John 3:16). Others obey like He repeatedly told us to, which is what He said we’d do if we truly do believe in Him. Everybody wants a Savior, but not everyone seems to want a Lord.

Hi :wave:

I'm not clear on how you think John 14:12 is proof of salvation plus something though. According to your interpretation of works in that text it doesn't make sense. What greater commandment keeping are we going to do than Jesus? Also, I'm not sure how you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is referring to the 10 commandments in John 14 if you consider the context of that discourse to the disciples.

[TrustAndObey]

Hi

I'm not clear on how you think John 14:12 is proof of salvation plus something though. According to your interpretation of works in that text it doesn't make sense. What greater commandment keeping are we going to do than Jesus? Also, I'm not sure how you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is referring to the 10 commandments in John 14 if you consider the context of that discourse to the disciples.

If you look back to my original post, I asked BFA what works HE thought Jesus was talking about in John 14. I never said what I thought they were, but I guess you were assuming I thought that meant the 10 Commandments? I didn't realize you thought that is what I was saying when I answered your last post.

It’s not salvation plus something….it was a list of verses where Christ told us what we would “do” if we do believe in Him, including baptism.

BFA said there is nothing to the Gospel except John 3:16-17 and I contend that there is. How can we truly believe in Christ if we don’t know the things He did, fought against, fought for, and taught?

Now, one of those verses I listed includes works.

You mention “works” to 99% of Christians and they cringe, because they know we can’t “earn” our salvation. Christ wasn’t telling us to earn our salvation…He was telling us that if we do believe in Him, these are the things we will do.

Some of them take effort. That isn’t “earning” anything. It’s showing Him that we love Him back!

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There are people that call Him (Christ) Lord that don’t do the will of the Father. Jesus said they won't enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't know how to explain it any better than He already did.

God says “believe in my Son”, and the Son says “do the will of my Father.” If we believe in Him we'll obey the will of the Father.

I don't see it as complicated.

[VictorC]

Victor you prove my point about the cult like devotion to that web site...I will continue to post my opinion on that web site.
You know, you may be surprised to find some of those mean and terrible people over there on that site with our endless devotion to Jesus Christ, and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) are actually concerned for you.

But you won't know that as long as your trust is placed in gossip instead of seeing for yourself what is said there.

It was my concern that I might not be considered engaging in gossip that I posted what I had done to you.
I am not speaking behind your back.
I am not judging another servant bought with His Blood.
My integrity is intact.

Victor

[sciana]

If you look back to my original post, I asked BFA what works HE thought Jesus was talking about in John 14. I never said what I thought they were, but I guess you were assuming I thought that meant the 10 Commandments? I didn't realize you thought that is what I was saying when I answered your last post.

I must have misread post 52 then.



It’s not salvation plus something….it was a list of verses where Christ told us what we would “do” if we do believe in Him, including baptism.

You had referred to another ingredient in addition to grace. Is it your belief that receiving and maintaining salvation is by grace through faith alone and not by works of any kind?



BFA said there is nothing to the Gospel except John 3:16-17 and I contend that there is. How can we truly believe in Christ if we don’t know the things He did, fought against, fought for, and taught?

Now, one of those verses I listed includes works.

The good news, the gospel, is pretty much John 3:16. I would have to agree with that.

Paul defines it as "1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." 1 Cor 15.

What He taught, fought for, fought against, etc is important. I just wouldn't clarify it as the gospel by which we are saved.


You mention “works” to 99% of Christians and they cringe, because they know we can’t “earn” our salvation. Christ wasn’t telling us to earn our salvation…He was telling us that if we do believe in Him, these are the things we will do.

Some of them take effort. That isn’t “earning” anything. It’s showing Him that we love Him back!

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The will of the Father is the same as the Son. In the text you refer to it is talking about those He never knew, not those who are born again.

John 6 "26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""





There are people that call Him (Christ) Lord that don’t do the will of the Father. Jesus said they won't enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't know how to explain it any better than He already did.

God says “believe in my Son”, and the Son says “do the will of my Father.” If we believe in Him we'll obey the will of the Father.

I don't see it as complicated.

It isn't complicated. Trust in Christ for salvation and you are saved. That is the will of the Father. Good behaviors come about after we are saved.

I still don't understand your perspective on my original question on John 14:12. If you are defining works and commandments in John 14 as everything Jesus commanded us to do then what would be the greater works that we are to do?

[reddogs]

I must have misread post 52 then.




You had referred to another ingredient in addition to grace. Is it your belief that receiving and maintaining salvation is by grace through faith alone and not by works of any kind?




The good news, the gospel, is pretty much John 3:16. I would have to agree with that.

Paul defines it as "1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." 1 Cor 15.

What He taught, fought for, fought against, etc is important. I just wouldn't clarify it as the gospel by which we are saved.



The will of the Father is the same as the Son. In the text you refer to it is talking about those He never knew, not those who are born again.

John 6 "26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""






It isn't complicated. Trust in Christ for salvation and you are saved. That is the will of the Father. Good behaviors come about after we are saved.

I still don't understand your perspective on my original question on John 14:12. If you are defining works and commandments in John 14 as everything Jesus commanded us to do then what would be the greater works that we are to do?


Yes, Justification and Sanctification together......

[VictorC]

The fun never ends does it? I didn't talk about specific people on CARM, just the "spirit" that is there.

I am finding it hilarious how you, Lebesgue, and Sophia are basically calling in the recruits from over there to come here. I'll save this post and a couple of others. ;)

I thought you were doing a fine job all by yourself Victor. I didn't know you needed backup.
I believe it was your comments that were leaked that invited me to come and take a look for myself.
So, if you enjoy my company so much, then reach back and pat yourself on the back.

I guess that makes you my 'backup' ;)

Victor
ps - CF is basically 'down'. 5 minutes to load a page and continual responses such as the below aren't conducive to conversation. I will return when the site functions better.

Network Error (tcp_error)

A communication error occurred: ""
The Web Server may be down, too busy, or experiencing other problems preventing it from responding to requests. You may wish to try again at a later time.

For assistance, contact your network support team.

[sciana]

Yes, Justification and Sanctification together......

I'm sorry...what question are you answering? I'm not sure what you are saying...what about justification and sanctification?

[TrustAndObey]

I believe it was your comments that were leaked that invited me to come and take a look for myself.
So, if you enjoy my company so much, then reach back and pat yourself on the back.

I guess that makes you my 'backup' ;)

Victor

It's not that I don't enjoy your company, but there's an entire thread on there talking about CF and the people here, and I don't see anyone from here going over there to defend CF the way you defend CARM.

ps - CF is basically 'down'. 5 minutes to load a page and continual responses such as the below aren't conducive to conversation. I will return when the site functions better.

Network Error (tcp_error)

A communication error occurred: ""
The Web Server may be down, too busy, or experiencing other problems preventing it from responding to requests. You may wish to try again at a later time.

For assistance, contact your network support team.

I've had problems with this site for two days. They're working on it.

The best way to go is to type up a response in a Word document and then copy/paste it in here in case it won't submit.

You can answer the questions about CARM, so how's about some of the other questions in this thread unrelated to CARM?

[Sophia7]

KJV, Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

"Our" was added by the translators.

He is the author and finisher of faith. We choose whether or not we put our faith in Him.
Whose faith is He the author and finisher of?

KJV, JAS 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

In all the versions that say "to be", it was added by the translators.

Not all the poor in the world ARE rich in faith, obviously, so I think the KJV of this verse is more realistic.

Where did the poor who are rich in faith get their faith?

The KJV isn't necessarily more realistic or more accurate than other translations, but it is more literal than many translations, and it's based on different underlying manuscripts than many of the newer translations. No translation is perfect, including the KJV. (I prefer the NASB when I want to read a literal translation.)

However, you're ignoring the obvious fact that the translators did add those words in the KJV; our KJV Bibles just tell us when they did it. And the translators added those words because of the context. Leaving them out doesn't change the meaning; it just gives you a convenient excuse to read into it what you want to.

Also, you have ignored the verse that you quoted yourself (from the KJV): Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
There are no italics in that bolded part.

Where do you think our faith comes from, T&O? Do you think it's something that we just produce in ourselves by our own willpower or what?

[reddogs]

I'm sorry...what question are you answering? I'm not sure what you are saying...what about justification and sanctification?

Sanctification is the offspring of Justification, thus the Fruits of the Spirit.......

[TrustAndObey]

Whose faith is He the author and finisher of?



Where did the poor who are rich in faith get their faith?

The KJV isn't necessarily more realistic or more accurate than other translations, but it is more literal than many translations, and it's based on different underlying manuscripts than many of the newer translations. No translation is perfect, including the KJV. (I prefer the NASB when I want to read a literal translation.)

However, you're ignoring the obvious fact that the translators did add those words in the KJV; our KJV Bibles just tell us when they did it. And the translators added those words because of the context. Leaving them out doesn't change the meaning; it just gives you a convenient excuse to read into it what you want to.



Also, you have ignored the verse that you quoted yourself (from the KJV):Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.There are no italics in that bolded part.

Where do you think our faith comes from, T&O? Do you think it's something that we just produce in ourselves by our own willpower or what?

Sophia, do you think God created robots that already had faith in Jesus?

He gave us a measure of faith. He also gave us hearts that we can destroy, lungs we can destroy, and brains we can destroy. What we do with the things He gave us is up to US.

That verse doesn't say it was a gift. It was a measure of faith, the ability to HAVE faith, but not what we can have faith IN.

I'd like to remind everyone here coming over from CARM that this is not an apologetics site.

[Sophia7]

It's not that I don't enjoy your company, but there's an entire thread on there talking about CF and the people here, and I don't see anyone from here going over there to defend CF the way you defend CARM.

And there was a whole thread in the Traditional sub-forum talking about CARM and how evil it is, so why shouldn't they be able to come here and defend themselves? By the way, I haven't been recruiting anyone there; I was just explaining how things worked here and some of the differences between here and there (all with publicly available information, in case you were wondering). I didn't start those discussions. If people from CARM want to join CF, though, they can. It's open to them, too.

Besides that, how can you see anyone from here going over there if you haven't been back since that one day (since you said that you would never go there again)?

[Sophia7]

Sophia, do you think God created robots that already had faith in Jesus?

He gave us a measure of faith. He also gave us hearts that we can destroy, lungs we can destroy, and brains we can destroy. What we do with the things He gave us is up to US.

That verse doesn't say it was a gift. It was a measure of faith, the ability to HAVE faith, but not what we can have faith IN.

Of course I don't think that God created people to be robots, but the Bible does tell us that God gives faith and that some are given a greater measure of faith than others. Here is another example:1Co 12:8 For to one, is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (KJV)
You seemed to be denying that faith is a gift from God at all. My question wasn't whether we should do anything with our faith but where you think our faith comes from.

I'd like to remind everyone here coming over from CARM that this is not an apologetics site. The inquisition-type questioning needs to stop.

This is a discussion and debate area, open to everyone, even people from CARM. As long as they follow the rules, they are allowed to debate here.

[TrustAndObey]

You had referred to another ingredient in addition to grace. Is it your belief that receiving and maintaining salvation is by grace through faith alone and not by works of any kind?

I believe in all of it Sciana. I believe that Christ gave us lessons about becoming lost sheep. Still sheep, but lost before we’re brought back into the fold. I believe that He told us that no matter when we came back, we’d still get our penny.

Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe in the Word of God. Grace through faith. Grace is not necessary if there is no law.

The love of God is that we obey His commandments (1John 5:3). When we do not, we’re told to repent and confess in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. That is grace through faith. Faith that we will be forgiven by our Savior, even if it doesn’t always FEEL like we were forgiven or WE feel our sin was too bad to be forgiven.

We can’t confess to breaking the law if there is no law.

I have faith in the resurrection, faith in a sinless Savior that died to pay the debt of sin, faith that when He spoke the words to obey the Father in heaven—that is exactly what I should do. I have faith in His words and in His examples….because those are how I truly know that He is my Savior.

The good news, the gospel, is pretty much John 3:16. I would have to agree with that.

Paul defines it as "1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." 1 Cor 15.

What He taught, fought for, fought against, etc is important. I just wouldn't clarify it as the gospel by which we are saved.

Can you have faith in Someone and then not do the things they tell you to do?

Luke 6:6 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The will of the Father is the same as the Son. In the text you refer to it is talking about those He never knew, not those who are born again.

AHA! But they THINK they were born again don’t they or they wouldn’t be calling Him “Lord”!

He said if they were His, they’d do the will of the Father.

When Jesus was asking that the cup be taken from Him, did He not say “but THY will be done” when He was talking to the Father? The will of the Father ended up being what Christ was asking to be taken from Him, and Christ had to continue with the plan of salvation.

John 6 "26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""

This could go on all day.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Matt 19:17 And he said unto Him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Again, do we really believe in Him if we don’t do the things He told us to do?


It isn't complicated. Trust in Christ for salvation and you are saved. That is the will of the Father. Good behaviors come about after we are saved.

I still don't understand your perspective on my original question on John 14:12. If you are defining works and commandments in John 14 as everything Jesus commanded us to do then what would be the greater works that we are to do?

Personally, I think the works being talked about in John 14 are similar to these: Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

I think through faith we really can do anything in His name. With the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains.

[sciana]

I believe in all of it Sciana. I believe that Christ gave us lessons about becoming lost sheep. Still sheep, but lost before we’re brought back into the fold. I believe that He told us that no matter when we came back, we’d still get our penny.

Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I believe in the Word of God. Grace through faith. Grace is not necessary if there is no law.

The love of God is that we obey His commandments (1John 5:3). When we do not, we’re told to repent and confess in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. That is grace through faith. Faith that we will be forgiven by our Savior, even if it