"Spiritual gifts" and I Corinthians 13 [Archive]

IisJustMe

31st March 2008, 12:51 PM

This is going to be an uncharacteristically long discussion for me, but it is important to lay out the case for my views. Therefore, this will be posted in two parts. Please, please, please do not reply to this thread unless you have read thoroughly the entire two-post premise. Thank you.
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What can we know about spiritual gifts? Spiritual gifts were promised by the Lord to believers; were administered by the apostles; and were for a limited time (see Mark 16:15-18; Acts 8 & 19; 1 Corinthians 13). Paul listed numerous gifts throughout his writings, but in this section of his work he specified nine such gifts in I Corinthians 12:4-11. I Corinthians 12 discusses the use of these gifts. But my purpose here is to answer the question, "How can we know when these spiritual gifts will cease or be done away with?"

In 1 Corinthians 13:8 Paul stated that "love never fails." But he says that the gifts of "prophecies," "tongues," and "knowledge" would "cease" (NASB) or "would be done away." (NASB) And this would happen (v. 10) "when that which is perfect is come." The question is, however, has "that which is perfect" come; and consequently the spiritual gifts been done away?

A brief study of the Greek words we want to notice

In the NASB the translators say that both the gifts of prophecy and knowledge would be "done away." The KJV translates it that the prophecies "shall fail" and knowledge "shall vanish away." In the original languages, this same Greek word, katargeo, is used for both. In both the KJV and the NASB the phrase "shall cease" is used in reference to the gift of tongues. That is because it is translated from a completely different word, pauomai.

The word for ''fail," ekpiptei, ("love never fails") is another totally different word. What we then have is this: The gifts of prophecies and knowledge will katargeo = "fail," "vanish away," "be done away"; but the gift of tongues will pauomai = "cease." In the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament we are told that the word katargeo means "to condemn to inactivity," "to destroy," "to remove from the sphere of activity," or, in a religious sense = "to make completely inoperative."

Other places where this word is used in our Bibles:

Death is to be ''abolished" katargeo, (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:26). Note the second definition above. We have been "discharged" katargeo from the law (Romans 7:6). Note the last definition above The Old Law, itself, was "done away" katargeo in Christ, (2 Corinthians 3:14) and by Christ (Ephesians 2:15). Note the first and third definitions. Notice that when Christ died on the cross the old law was done away. It could still be read in Paul's day as well as ours. Its activity however, was gone, being no longer in force, In the same way, when "that which is perfect comes," the need and purpose for the gifts of prophecy and knowledge would be gone; when the divine revelation was complete, these gifts would stop via inactivity.Katargeo, then indicates coming to an abrupt end when the need has expired.

The word pauomai ("to cease"), used concerning the demise of the gift of tongues means something somewhat different. This difference, however, tells us something about how this spiritual gift was to stop. In the Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon we are told that the wordpauomai means "to stop oneself."

The gifts of prophecies and knowledge had to be done away with in the same way that sacrifices of the Old Law were "done away with." Paul said, in Ephesians 2:14-15, "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing [katargeo] in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace...." How was the Law done away with? By something better taking its place! In that same way, the gifts of knowledge and prophecy would be done away with "when that which is perfect is come." Now, before you jump on this and say the "perfect" is Jesus, please read on.

Consider the context

This context begins in 1 Corinthians 12:1 and ends with 1 Corinthians 14:40. Chapter 12 deals with the diversity of spiritual gifts. In 12:31 we are introduced to the quality of love in contrast with spiritual gifts. In V.31 Paul told the Corinthians, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way." Then in chapter 13:1-3 he points out that "love" is more important than the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecies, and knowledge. In vv. 9, 10 Paul contrasts that which is "in part" and that which is "perfect." He says now we know "in part" and we prophesy "in part," and then tells us that which is ''in part" shall be done away with and replaced by "that which is perfect." And then, (in v.12) he says, "I shall fully know as I am fully known." Let's look at the two Greek words that are translated as "in part" and "perfect." "In part" is translated from the Greek [ek merous], meaning partially. Paul knew God's will partially (through spiritual gifts). Later Paul would know fully (or completely) when all the parts are put together. Look at 1 Corinthians 12:27, in which Paul speaks of "members in particular." (ek merous); i.e. each person who had a gift was only a part of the whole. Context is essential, and error occurs when assumptions are made from the English translation rather than examining the original languages.

Some have taught, in error, that "that which is perfect" refers to Jesus

"Perfect" is translated from the Greek teleion, meaning, according to Thayer's Lexicon, "brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness." In the Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon the word is described as, "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect." It is important to note that this word is an adjective and not a noun. Even in our English language we never refer to a person as a ''that." In both Greek and English "that" is neuter gender. Christ is not referred to as "that" but as "Who." The key to understanding this passage properly is in the proper understanding of the word "perfect." Let's look at some other New Testament uses of the Greek word teleion:

(1) Jesus commanded us not to be respectors of persons in loving our friends and hating our enemies (Matthew 5:44-47), but to be complete or "perfect" [teleion] like our heavenly Father (v. 48) in loving friends and enemies alike.
(2) Jesus said that the rich, young ruler could be "perfect" [teleion] if he would "go and sell your possessions and feed the poor...." (Matthew 19:21).
(3) Paul said that his preaching was wisdom among those who are "full grown," or "perfect" [teleion] (1 Corinthians 2:6)
(4) Paul urged the Corinthians to be "men" [teleion] (i.e. "full grown" or "perfect") instead of babes (1 Corinthians 14:20).
(5) In Ephesians 4:13 we read that the body of Christ is to be built up unto a full grown, "mature" [teleion] man.
(6) When Paul wrote to the Philippians he said (3:15) that some of the Christians were "perfect" [teleion].
(7) Epaphras prayed that the Colossians would stand "perfect" [teleion] in the will of God (Colossians 4:12).
(8) The Hebrews were chided for not having progressed to the solid food aspect of the Word of God which, said the inspired writer. is for grown, "mature," [teleion] men, described as those who have their senses exercised to discern good and evil (Hebrews 5:14).
(9) James describes the law of liberty as the "perfect" [teleion] law. (James 1:25)

End Part I

IisJustMe

31st March 2008, 01:07 PM

Now let's look at "that which is perfect" in its context: I Cor. 13:9-12, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known."

"That which is perfect (complete)" is the completion of that which is in part. We know "in part" and we prophesy "in part" refers to the proclamation of the gospel by divine will as the apostles were teaching by the use of spiritual gifts. When Jesus promised to guide the apostles into "all truth " (John 6:13) it was not done all at once. During the first century these inspired men were each revealing the parts of the whole gospel as the Lord was revealing it to them through the Holy Spirit (via spiritual gifts). It was not until almost the close of the first century that the whole had been revealed.

Paul gives us an illustration. When a child grows up (matures) and becomes full grown, he puts away that which is childish. "I spoke as a child" -- immature thoughts and ideas; "understood as a child" - lacking in knowledge; "I thought as a child" - reasoning based upon limited knowledge and understanding. He compared it to trying to see one's face in a dark and smoky glass compared to the reality of face to face.

Conclusion

The purpose of spiritual gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues was both so that the ones who were preaching the gospel would have the exact message from God to proclaim, and that the ones who were the listeners would know this revelation was from God and not man (read I Corinthians 2:1-5). Paul said that his "message and preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

Don't ever wish you could go back to that time when they had spiritual gifts. Don't ever think that we have less than they did then. We have the perfect revelation from God. It is called The Bible. Desiring "spiritual gifts" is to desire to go back to looking through the "dark glass."

Spiritual gifts ceased because their need ceased. Some died instantly. The spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge was "done away," katargeo. When God finished His gospel to us there was no more need for those spiritual gifts. These spiritual gifts stopped because God stopped revealing. His message was complete. Some spiritual gifts lingered for awhile and died of their own accord. The spiritual gift of tongues would "cease" -- pauomai -- or stop by itself. One must know, from biblical context and the absolutely certainty of the meaning of the Koine Greek in which the apostles wrote, that when the last person died who had the spiritual gift of tongues, that spiritual gift died also.

Spiritual gifts were never meant to last forever. While the church was in its infancy they were needed. But the church became full grown. God, as in all of those things He created miraculously, gave the church all that it needed to continue to reproduce after itself. That's why today, when you plant the "seed," the word of God (Luke 8:11) in fertile soil (the heart of the honest man, Luke 8:15) the fruit that is produced is simply a Christian.

In closing let me also mention that we can know that spiritual gifts (the spiritual gifts of our context beginning in 1 Corinthians 12) are no longer in force today because the only way that they could be passed to another is by the laying on of the apostle's hands. In Acts 8, Philip, who was not an apostle, had to have apostles come from Jerusalem to lay their hands on the Samaritans so that they could receive spiritual gifts. Look especially at vv. 17-19. Also, read Acts 19:1-7. Since there are no living apostles it should be obvious to all, based upon these passages, that spiritual gifts were never intended to last past the first century, and are certainly not active today.

Finally, Jesus warned that these same spiritual gifts would be counterfeited by Satan in the days following His earthly ministry. Well-meaning people who insist these gifts continue in the church today are not necessarily being "satanicly or demonically influenced," but when utterly ungodly and ongoing manifestations like the Toronto Outpouring or the Brownsville Miracle are present in this world, we know Jesus' warnings are true:

"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

[F]or false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs andwonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. (Mark 13:22)

So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (John 4:48)

I am thankful that we live in the age of the "still more excellent way" ..... "But now abide faith. hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. "

Svt4Him

1st April 2008, 01:02 AM

So faith is done away with? And has your knowledge been done away with? And do you know Greek or are you simply using a language dictionary?

IisJustMe

1st April 2008, 01:14 AM

So faith is done away with? And has your knowledge been done away with? And do you know Greek or are you simply using a language dictionary?I know my Greek quite well. I had ten hours of it toward my BA. Paul does not say faith is done away with ... only knowledge, prophecy and tongues.

desmalia

1st April 2008, 11:39 AM

So faith is done away with? And has your knowledge been done away with? And do you know Greek or are you simply using a language dictionary?
I can see how you might conclude he is saying that when the OP refers to the ceasing of the spiritual gifts. But if you read the context of the whole posts, you'll see he's talking specifically about the "signs" gifts, which include prophesy, knowledge, and tongues. I hope that helps clarify for you. :)

desmalia

1st April 2008, 11:44 AM

Oh... IisJustMe, would you mind doing a quick word study on "knowledge" just for further clarification? Thanks.

IisJustMe

1st April 2008, 12:12 PM

"Knowledge" (as used four times from I Corinthians 12:8 to 14:6) is the Greek gnosis and is defined as:

Knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
The general knowledge of Christian religion
The deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced
Especially of things lawful and unlawful for Christians
Moral wisdom, such as is seen in right livingThis knowledge comes from God, and at the time of Paul's writing was still in the process of being revealed through Paul and the other writers of the New Testament. To that point, the "knowledge of God" came exclusively from the Old Testament writings and from the revelation the Holy Spirit was giving Paul, John, Matthew, Luke, Peter (as recorded by John Mark, for whom Peter's gospel is named) and the others who would write later. This letter was written sometime around 57-60 AD, before about a third of the rest of the NT was written.

Paul was envisioning, in his declaration that this previously existing method of revealing knowledge would become "completely inoperative," a time when all God's knowledge intended for man would be revealed and recorded. I suspect Paul was too modest to realize he was the one through whom the recording was primarily being accomplished, yet he knew God's intentions, if not through himself then at least through others. This method of supernatural knowledge that the prophets and seers of God had been receiving for thousands of years would become "inoperative" because the revealed will of God would be complete within 40 years of Paul's writing. Gnosis was the knowledge of the things of God, the will of God for each believer, and it is complete and need not be added to, in the pages of what we call the Holy Bible.

ARBITER01

1st April 2008, 01:47 PM

These types is discussions are normally fruitless but,.... sometimes truth can have an impact later when people actually think about it.

If,.... the gifts of The Spirit were to be removed at this present time,... we would not be able to fullfill this commandment of Jesus,..

John 14:12 ¶ (ASV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

It is impossible to do the works of Jesus without the gifts of The Spirit since they were what Jesus used in His ministries. All the healing and deliverance was done through the gifts of healing, and all the miracles were done through the working of miracles. Every predictive prophecy was done through the word of wisdom. Every knowledgable thing Jesus told His disciples was spoken through the word of knowledge.

These were the same gifts that were used in other prophets lives through the years, they never changed, and they certainly never died out with Jesus and His apostles, or paul.

eNathans

9th April 2008, 02:43 AM

IisJustMe, we believe in the Gifts not by scripture alone, but by the power of the Holy Spirit that performs it right in front of our eyes.

IamRedeemed

9th April 2008, 10:00 AM

Jehovah's witnesses teach that though. Not only do I know as an eye witness of the gifts in operation
through others and through personal experience of them in operation through me that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit HAVE NOT CEASED, even if I didn't know that they haven't, the idea of that is absolutely ludicrous. What, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit were only good for 100 years and for the past 1900 years Jesus can do nothing by the power of the Holy Spirit for anyone? Can't give a message to someone (Prophetic) can't minister to someone with a Word of Knowledge, or reveal a hidden sin by the same gift? Do not speak in tongues? Do not heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, cause the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, cast out devils, raise the dead?

The Holy Ghost is now impotent on the earth and does not work through the vessels of God?

As I said, if I did not know first hand that, it is completely untrue that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not in operation today and that preach is from the enemy to keep the Church impotent , or at least as many as he can get to believe that, even common sense should kick in and say that it would be completely ridiculous to buy that. Yes, there are counterfeits of the gifts of God in operation, just as the enemy has counterfeit gifts of love and sex going on. But just because lying wonders exist does not mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not exist. If the Gifts of the Holy Spirit did not exist, there would be NO NEED for the enemy to put forth a counterfeit.

But forget about what I have to say....
what does the Word of God say?

Signs and wonders follow WHO?
them WHO BELIEVE.

No, we do not chase after signs and wonders. To do so, would be foolish.
We are not to be chasing them, they are supposed to be following us
who claim to be believers.

And WHAT SIGNS will follow them?
Mark 16:15-20
(this is Jesus speaking)
And he said unto them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they
shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven,
and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where,
the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I hope that helps to clarify some things.

God bless

I can see how you might conclude he is saying that when the OP refers to the ceasing of the spiritual gifts. But if you read the context of the whole posts, you'll see he's talking specifically about the "signs" gifts, which include prophesy, knowledge, and tongues. I hope that helps clarify for you. :)

desmalia

9th April 2008, 12:24 PM

IisJustMe

9th April 2008, 12:50 PM

IisJustMe, we believe in the Gifts not by scripture alone, but by the power of the Holy Spirit that performs it right in front of our eyes.The Holy Spirit does not operate in any way outside of the parameters of His ministry, and He passed these gifts only to the apostles, and enabled the apostles to pass them on to others, such as Phillip, as I detailed in the OP. However, Phillip and the others could not pass on these gifts, and when the apostles and the beneficiaries of their laying on of hands died, so did the gifts, because they were no longer necessary.Jehovah's witnesses teach that though. Not only do I know as an eye witness of the gifts in operation
through others and through personal experience of them in operation through me that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit HAVE NOT CEASED, even if I didn't know that they haven't, the idea of that is absolutely ludicrous.I don't doubt you've seen things that impressed you. Whether they were made up by those "manifesting" them, or were perhaps the fabications of a "lesser god" is something only God knows, but I guarantee you, the "manifesting" of these gifts is not of God, no matter what reasoning or "who" is behind it. If the idea of their first-century demise is "ludicrous," you need to prove my reasoning in the OPs to be faulty.

Frisbee

9th April 2008, 03:45 PM

IAR, I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

However, I would like to know what your comments are on 1 Corinthians 13:10, as compared to IisJustMe's comments. What do you believe "that which is perfect" is? Thanks.
I love this topic!!!

The word is teleios in Koine Greek (go to http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&t=kjv for a complete study of thie word). Most bibles translate this as perfect, but it means fully matured and in a state of completion. Some folks say that this "means" that when the bible was written, then it was perfect or complete. I completely diagree because it ignores the context that Paul himself clearly and plainly uses...

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul is telling about the superiority of love over spiritual gifts to a church that he spent a lot of ink correcting for abusing spiritual gifts and neglecting greater and bigger things such as love. The key here is to look at what Paul says. Let the bible interpret the bible!

Paul clearly concludes that although spiritual gifts will fail, tongues will cease and knowledge will vanish, that when we are fully mature is when we will understand fully. He describes that time specifically as that time when we see Him "face to face".

You can draw any conclusion you wish, but read in context it is quite clear. The only time it becomes unclear is when folks try to add to it by implying that it means something that he didn't say. He wasn't speaking in mysteries, but plainly in response to people who were trying to become mysterious with hyper-spiritualism.

ARBITER01

9th April 2008, 08:22 PM

I love this topic!!!

The word is teleios in Koine Greek (go to http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&t=kjv for a complete study of thie word). Most bibles translate this as perfect, but it means fully matured and in a state of completion. Some folks say that this "means" that when the bible was written, then it was perfect or complete. I completely diagree because it ignores the context that Paul himself clearly and plainly uses...

Paul is telling about the superiority of love over spiritual gifts to a church that he spent a lot of ink correcting for abusing spiritual gifts and neglecting greater and bigger things such as love. The key here is to look at what Paul says. Let the bible interpret the bible!

Paul clearly concludes that although spiritual gifts will fail, tongues will cease and knowledge will vanish, that when we are fully mature is when we will understand fully. He describes that time specifically as that time when we see Him "face to face".

You can draw any conclusion you wish, but read in context it is quite clear. The only time it becomes unclear is when folks try to add to it by implying that it means something that he didn't say. He wasn't speaking in mysteries, but plainly in response to people who were trying to become mysterious with hyper-spiritualism.

That was very good!

Maturity was the theme involved, hence why Paul could look at the Corinthians and say "Ye are carnal."

He wanted them to seek more than their pentecostal experience, and to go onto perfection, as the writer of hebrews said and pointed out also.

IamRedeemed

9th April 2008, 11:53 PM

"things that impressed me?"

I am sure not in the derogatory sense that you say such.

Listen, just as when atheists tell us there is no God, or that they do not believe God exists and we know that no matter what they believe it doesn't change the truth as we who believe KNOW that God surely lives, as He has manifested Himself in our lives, the same is applicable to those who claim the operations and gifts of the Holy Spirit are null and void. You are welcome to believe what you will, but it does not and cannot ever change the truth. The only thing that can change is you coming to the knowledge of that truth.

The Holy Spirit does not operate in any way outside of the parameters of His ministry, and He passed these gifts only to the apostles, and enabled the apostles to pass them on to others, such as Phillip, as I detailed in the OP. However, Phillip and the others could not pass on these gifts, and when the apostles and the beneficiaries of their laying on of hands died, so did the gifts, because they were no longer necessary.I don't doubt you've seen things that impressed you. Whether they were made up by those "manifesting" them, or were perhaps the fabications of a "lesser god" is something only God knows, but I guarantee you, the "manifesting" of these gifts is not of God, no matter what reasoning or "who" is behind it. If the idea of their first-century demise is "ludicrous," you need to prove my reasoning in the OPs to be faulty.

IamRedeemed

9th April 2008, 11:56 PM

What do you think it means?

Just FYI, Jehovah's Witnesses use that Scripture as well to contend the same position,
lacking the understanding of the verse to make it support the same thing that you and
IIs are using it for.

If you were correct, I would be inclined to agree with you.

IAR, I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

However, I would like to know what your comments are on 1 Corinthians 13:10, as compared to IisJustMe's comments. What do you believe "that which is perfect" is? Thanks.

IamRedeemed

9th April 2008, 11:59 PM

:amen:

I love this topic!!!

The word is teleios in Koine Greek (go to http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&t=kjv for a complete study of thie word). Most bibles translate this as perfect, but it means fully matured and in a state of completion. Some folks say that this "means" that when the bible was written, then it was perfect or complete. I completely diagree because it ignores the context that Paul himself clearly and plainly uses...

Paul is telling about the superiority of love over spiritual gifts to a church that he spent a lot of ink correcting for abusing spiritual gifts and neglecting greater and bigger things such as love. The key here is to look at what Paul says. Let the bible interpret the bible!

Paul clearly concludes that although spiritual gifts will fail, tongues will cease and knowledge will vanish, that when we are fully mature is when we will understand fully. He describes that time specifically as that time when we see Him "face to face".

You can draw any conclusion you wish, but read in context it is quite clear. The only time it becomes unclear is when folks try to add to it by implying that it means something that he didn't say. He wasn't speaking in mysteries, but plainly in response to people who were trying to become mysterious with hyper-spiritualism.

That was very good!

Maturity was the theme involved, hence why Paul could look at the Corinthians and say "Ye are carnal."

He wanted them to seek more than their pentecostal experience, and to go onto perfection, as the writer of hebrews said and pointed out also.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 12:17 AM

What do you think it means? I think she pretty much agrees with me. Where's your alternative explanation?If you were correct, I would be inclined to agree with you.
I am correct. And ... ?

desmalia

10th April 2008, 11:01 AM

I think she pretty much agrees with me.
Yes. It refers to the completion of the canon of the Scriptures. That's not some crazy stretch. It's the only logical conclusion from the context. :)
I guess even before that can be discussed it may need to be established that the canon is actually closed though, huh? I'm finding a lot of people around CF don't even believe it is.
So that's my answer.
Care to share yours?

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 11:16 AM

The word is teleios in Koine Greek ... Most bibles translate this as perfect, but it means fully matured and in a state of completion. Some folks say that this "means" that when the bible was written, then it was perfect or complete. I completely diagree because it ignores the context that Paul himself clearly and plainly uses...For another reference on the use of this word, look at John 19:30, when Jesus is given the sour wine, cries out "It is finished!" and give up His human spirit. The Greek to telestai is translated "It is finished." This was also the word used by Roman tax collectors when canceling a tax bill. It meant "Paid in full." So the use of the word is more often "complete" not "perfect." The KJV got it wrong at the start, and the more modern translations, for whatever reason, have continued to use it that way, though the NASB switches back and forth. And this statement: He describes that time specifically as that time when we see Him "face to face". ... has already been shown in my OP to be dead wrong. "That" is an adjective modifying "perfect" and Jesus is decidedly not a "that" but "Who." So Paul could not possibly have been talking about Jesus. It is an event he speaks of, and the event is the completion of the canon. You did read the OPs, right?"things that impressed me?" ... I am sure not in the derogatory sense that you say such. We're friends, right? Why would you assume it is derogatory?You are welcome to believe what you will, but it does not and cannot ever change the truth. The only thing that can change is you coming to the knowledge of that truth.Throughout my Christian walk I've corrected my theology on more than one occasion when confronted with the reality that I had believed wrongly. You call this the "truth." Please prove it to me. I've given extensive reasoning for my conclusions. The least you can do is give me good exegetical evidence for yours.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 11:18 AM

Sure, my answer is in agreement with Frisbee's post in response to your post
to me, which I gave an "amen" to, located here.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45762478&postcount=13

That Scripture has NOTHING to do with the completion of the canon, so I absolutely
disagree with you that it isn't "some crazy stretch" to subscribe to the same interpretation
that JW's subscribe to, to fit in with their pet doctrines.
And the only way that could be logical, is if it fit into a package of other non-truths
that one subscribes to as they would need that Scripture to say what they want it to
in order to continue in their pet doctrines and continue walking in the dark on this topic.

Yes. It refers to the completion of the canon of the Scriptures. That's not some crazy stretch. It's the only logical conclusion from the context. :)
I guess even before that can be discussed it may need to be established that the canon is actually closed though, huh? I'm finding a lot of people around CF don't even believe it is.
So that's my answer.
Care to share yours?

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 11:33 AM

That Scripture has NOTHING to do with the completion of the canon, so I absolutely disagree with you that it isn't "some crazy stretch" to subscribe to the same interpretation that JW's subscribe to, to fit in with their pet doctrines.Just because the Jehovah's Witnesses use the same argument does not mean it is wrong. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. So you can drop that illogical line of reasoning, because it doesn't hold water. Frisbee's explanation was already shown to be in error in the OP, before he even posted it. I just reiterated that in my last post, the adjective "that" is not used for a person, therefore the "perfect" (actually, as I said in the OPs, "complete") is not Jesus. Paul would not refer to Him as "that." So, given that I have given sound exegetical reasoning, I'm still waiting for some from your viewpoint.

desmalia

10th April 2008, 11:35 AM

I wonder how many more times we can get ya to compare us to the JW's. ^_^ :doh:

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 11:45 AM

[quote=IisJustMe;45783380]We're friends, right? Why would you assume it is derogatory?

Did you read your post? Perhaps you ought to reread it, and you will see that it can
be interpreted as nothing other. The content and tone of your post is not that
of a friend, friend.

Throughout my Christian walk I've corrected my theology on more than one occasion when confronted with the reality that I had believed wrongly. You call this the "truth." Please prove it to me. I've given extensive reasoning for my conclusions. The least you can do is give me good exegetical evidence for yours.

Well, hopefully this will be another one of those times when you shall have to correct
your theology, because just as I said to you before (which is how you are presenting yourself,
which is why the analogy is so fitting)

<<<<when atheists tell us there is no God, or that they do not believe God exists and we know that no matter what they believe it doesn't change the truth as we who believe KNOW that God surely lives, as He has manifested Himself in our lives, the same is applicable to those who claim the operations and gifts of the Holy Spirit are null and void. You are welcome to believe what you will, but it does not and cannot ever change the truth. The only thing that can change is you coming to the knowledge of that truth. >>>>>

Jesus said it is a wicked generation that seeks after a sign. You want me to "prove" it to you,
like how? Perform some kind of a magic trick? That's not going to happen. Should I call you the
next time I am going to cast demons out of someone by the power of the Holy Ghost in the
name of Jesus, so you can spectate? What? What is it that you would require that would still
leave your righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisees?

What is it that you are looking for? Is the Word of Truth not sufficient for you to renew your mind?
Are not testimonies after testimonies of those who have received, eye witnesses after eyewitnesses as well not enough to even cause you to seek God on the matter, delving into His Word, rather than just continue proselytizing the unbelieving believer's theology that you have a current subscription to, down the throats of those who do believe and have not only seen the power of God, the power of deliverance, miraculous healings, the deaf hear, the blind see, the lame walk and have been used as a vessel as well thereby giving you personal testimony that the Word is VALID today, just as it was 2000 years ago?

If that is the case, then what you need, I can't give you. But I know One who can, and if you consider for a moment that there might be one slight iota of a chance that you could be wrong, you then will be in the position to ask Him to show you the truth, and probably not a moment before you come to that place.

God bless

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 11:50 AM

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 11:55 AM

The doctrine is where the comparison I am making is not the proselytizers
themselves and I guess you can get me to point out that JW's preach the
same preach about as many times as you choose to preach it.
That's up to you I guess. :doh::sorry:
And each time you do we will point out that it has absolutely nothing to do with our viewpoint, nor does it overshadow the fact that you still haven't provided exegetical support for your view. :sigh:

desmalia

10th April 2008, 11:58 AM

The doctrine is where the comparison I am making is not the proselytizers
themselves and I guess you can get me to point out that JW's preach the
same preach about as many times as you choose to preach it.
That's up to you I guess. :doh::sorry:

The JW's are also monotheistic. So I guess we must be wrong about that too, hey? My point is that you're attempting to use a very poor debate tactic which is not in the least bit relavent to the discussion. And I'm quite sure you are well aware of how offensive it is. How about instead we just stay on topic, hm?

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 12:15 PM

I do not have to provide you with exegesis. Signs and wonders follow them who believe, just as Jesus said they will. They will never follow you as long as you do not believe what Jesus said as recorded in the Scriptures, according to what you are testifying out of your own mouth.

You haven't even addressed what Jesus said in my post on the first page. You think that your one line general statements, that are not Scripture, nor does Scripture support, said with enough vinegar, is going to wipe out what Christians around the world KNOW is true and does align with what Jesus said and aligns with what Jesus told us to do.

Your statements do not nullify the work of the Holy Spirit and make them non-existent any more than an atheist's unbelief makes God Himself non-existent.

And I sure would like you to kindly respond to post #24 which I took the time to type in response to you, instead of only answering every post I address to Des and ignoring the ones addressed to you.

Thank you.

And each time you do we will point out that it has absolutely nothing to do with our viewpoint, nor does it replace the fact that you still haven't provided exegetical support for your view. :sigh:

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 12:17 PM

They also believe that Jesus was "a god". So, how does mention of that help you?
I didn't use it as a debate tactic. I mentioned it as a matter of fact. I have said this already.
I am on topic. It seems you are now going off topic though.
And please stop speaking to me in a snippy manner, I was going to say something about that in the
last post, and I decided to just let it go, but since it is continuing, I am asking you to curb it or I will
choose not participate in further dialogue with you. Let's try to act like we belong to whom
we say we do, hmm? After all, there are unbelievers watching, you can bet your bottom dollar on
that, so let's try not to defame the name of Jesus okay? Thanks.

The JW's are also monotheistic. So I guess we must be wrong about that too, hey? My point is that you're attempting to use a very poor debate tactic which is not in the least bit relavent to the discussion. And I'm quite sure you are well aware of how offensive it is. How about instead we just stay on topic, hm?

desmalia

10th April 2008, 12:21 PM

I didn't use it as a debate tactic. I mentioned it as a matter of fact. I have said this already.
I am on topic. Please stop speaking to me in a snippy manner, or I will not participate in
further dialogue with you. Let's act like we belong to whom we say we do, hmm?
I was just trying to point out the facts to you. Call it snippy if you like. If I had compared your charismatic experiences to pagan practices, you'd be saying the same thing to me. So, let's not go there, and instead get back to actually discussing the Scriptures.

Do you believe the canon is closed?
Do you believe "that which is perfect" refers to Christ's return?

desmalia

10th April 2008, 12:23 PM

After all, there are unbelievers watching, you can bet your bottom dollar on
that, so let's try not to defame the name of Jesus okay? Thanks.

I would ask the same of you.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 12:25 PM

They also believe that Jesus was "a god". So, how does mention of that help you? I didn't use it as a debate tactic. I mentioned it as a matter of fact.A fact it may be, but it is totally irrelevant to the discussion. And one, I suspect, you use because you cannot support your viewpoint exegetically. That's because there is no exegetical support in the Bible for the ongoing gift of tongues, prophecy or "knowledge" as it relates to revelation of God's truth. I have said this already. I am on topic. It seems you are now going off topic though.No, we're trying to stay on topic, which is I Corinthians 13 as it relates to spiritual gifts. I don't believe Paul mentioned Jehovah's Witnesses in that passage, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.And please stop speaking to me in a snippy manner, I was going to say something about that in the
last post, and I decided to just let it go, but since it is continuing, I am asking you to curb it or I will
choose not participate in further dialogue with you. Let's try to act like we belong to whom
we say we do, hmm? After all, there are unbelievers watching, you can bet your bottom dollar on that, so let's try not to defame the name of Jesus okay? Thanks.I don't see anyone doing that. But I do see you raising yet another issue rather than attempt to support your view of the gifts biblically. Still waiting for that one.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 01:19 PM

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 01:27 PM

Actually, all I did was point out that the particular doctrine that you are promoting, and the Scripture you are using to promote such doctrine is also promoted by JW's and they use the same Scripture to do so,
that is a factual statement, and both parties are wrong, in light of Scripture, recipients and their testimonies as well as ministers used of God and their testimonies, including personal testimony I have given in this thread, none of which are against or not in alignment with the words of Jesus.

Comparing what you are calling "charismatic experiences" to pagan practices is not and would not be the same thing. You would have to accuse Jesus, the Apostles, and Disciples of the past 2000 years of the same.

And it isn't just what you are saying that is snippy, the way you are saying it is snippy. This post in which I am responding to is also snippy in my opinion.

I will be happy to return to the discussion, just as soon as I am treated in a way that is conducive to a productive discussion between brethren that seeks to ultimately bring glory to Jesus Christ as I am no longer going to allow myself to participate in conversations with brethren, where they want to treat each other as heretics, heathens and goats. I am just not.

Yes, I believe the Bible is complete.

Do I believe it refers to Christ's return. No, not that in itself.
I believe the "completion" or "that which is made perfect"
refers to the time that everything is back to the way it
was here on earth before the fall of Adam. That is the only
time the world as we know it was ever perfect. So, it is logical to
conclude that the gifts will no longer be needful or useful
at that time. It is not logical to conclude (even if I had no personal
evidence to go on) that the world in its current state is not in need of
or would be deprived of the ministry gifts of the Holy Spirit, while
the Church is here as Christ's ambassadors. Why would James say if any of you
are sick, call to the elders of the Church to have hands laid on you and anoint
you with oil and pray the prayer of faith in the name of the Lord if there were no
gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation today? He didn't say, get ahold of an Apostle.

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

I was just trying to point out the facts to you. Call it snippy if you like. If I had compared your charismatic experiences to pagan practices, you'd be saying the same thing to me. So, let's not go there, and instead get back to actually discussing the Scriptures.

Do you believe the canon is closed?
Do you believe "that which is perfect" refers to Christ's return?

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 01:38 PM

Itisjustme. With all due respect, I am not going to reply to one more of your posts,
until you acknowledge and respond to post #24 as I did take the time to respond to
you when I posted it, so please kindly oblige.

Here's a link for your convenience now that it is buried.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45783964&postcount=24

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 02:22 PM

IAR, with all due respect, I did reply to that post, although perhaps not to your liking. If you cannot take my word that we are friends, then perhaps I've mischaracterized our exchanges on these boards. It was neither derogatory nor ill-intended. Also, regarding that comment, I thought (obviously wrongly) that while we have butted heads at times, there was no reason for you to question for more than an instant whether or not I am your friend.

Without the exegetical evidence supporting my need to change my theology, I cannot change it. Not only have you not provided anything refuting my reasoning in the two OPs, you have flatly stated "I do not have to provide you exegesis" which you supported only by saying that "signs and wonders will follow those who believe as Jesus said they would," but my OPs prove it is a false teaching to state those gifts extended beyond the first century. Sorry, but they do, unless I've misunderstood them. I don't believe I have, but if you believe I have, it is incumbant upon you, if you desire me to come around to your viewpoint, to prove to me that I am wrong. You can't do that by restating the views that my reasoning refutes. Until you do, I can't accept your belief that tongues, prophecy and revelation knowledge are for today. If you want me to believe it, prove it to me.

Frisbee

10th April 2008, 02:37 PM

IamRedeemed seems that you got your hands full sister! Was it something I said? LOLOLOL

Fact of the matter is that if you apply the reasoning that the folks giving you a hard time are trying to apply to this scripture to make that case that "tongues have ceased", then they would have to agree that prophecies did indeed fail, and knowledge actually vanished away. It is a case where despite IiJustMe is trying to front every argument and claim in order to win a debate. He went so far at one point as to tell you about how he had changed his mind in the past, so you should now bend knee to him and change your mind too.

Fact of the matter is that God baptizes with the Holy Spirit, not men. We can all have all the opinions we want, but it is God in the 3rd person of the trinity who makes the call, not you and I or anyone else for that matter.

If you look at the timing of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus it was in real time in perfect harmony with the spring feasts of Leviticus 23. From Passover to the Feast of Weeks, Jesus progressed through the shadows which were to foretell of His coming as suffering servant, as we wait patiently for the conquering King. If you continue to examine the Jewish calendar year you will notice that it rained twice a year, once in the spring and then once in fall directly preceding the final harvest for the year. In between is a time where the ground is worked and toiled over, we call this the church age.

On 312 Azusa in Los Angeles, one of several out pourings of the Holy Spirit began to break out as we witnessed the latter rain of the Jewish calendar year, begin. This is not to be confused with the latter day rain movement, this is simply the facts being presented. I am not making any of this up, and it is completely backed by scripture. But the important thing for us to be aware of here is that the harvest follows the autumn rains, and the Jewish feasts end with the Feast of Booths.

I encourage all of you to go and read your bible about these Feasts and to read for yourself about the perfect timing that God used to present Messiah the Prince exactly when the prophet Daniel said He would arrive. To the very year and month. Read both Joel 2 and Acts 2 and compare them for yourselves, and understand then what both Joel and Peter were talking about when they referenced the events that occurred on the Day of Pentecost...

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].

I wont attempt to address all of this in a comment, but I do encourage you to look for yourself. I trust that you will be absolutely delighted in what you discover!

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 02:39 PM

Where is your response to post #24 please? I do not see any reply whatsoever
from you for that post. So, can you please direct me to it?

Thanks in advance.

And no, on the other, that is not all I said. I was only reiterating the point
I made when I showed you from the Word what Jesus said and what the signs
were that would follow them who believe. Do you remember that post?
(which was the 1st post I posted in here way back on the 1st page if I remember correctly)
Take a gander and please don't forget to direct me to your response to post #24.

Thanks again.

IAR, with all due respect, I did reply to that post, although perhaps not to your liking. If you cannot take my word that we are friends, then perhaps I've mischaracterized our exchanges on these boards. It was neither derogatory nor ill-intended. Also, regarding that comment, I thought (obviously wrongly) that while we have butted heads at times, there was no reason for you to question for more than an instant whether or not I am your friend.

Without the exegetical evidence supporting my need to change my theology, I cannot change it. Not only have you not provided anything refuting my reasoning in the two OPs, you have flatly stated "I do not have to provide you exegesis" which you supported only by saying that "signs and wonders will follow those who believe as Jesus said they would," but my OPs prove it is a false teaching to state those gifts extended beyond the first century. Sorry, but they do, unless I've misunderstood them. I don't believe I have, but if you believe I have, it is incumbant upon you, if you desire me to come around to your viewpoint, to prove to me that I am wrong. You can't do that by restating the views that my reasoning refutes. Until you do, I can't accept your belief that tongues, prophecy and revelation knowledge are for today. If you want me to believe it, prove it to me.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 02:43 PM

desmalia

10th April 2008, 03:06 PM

I have been very tolerant, patient and forgiving despite the behavior you've been entreating me to Des. You have been acting this way now for a couple of months because you didn't like something I said (which I still stand by) and I have not held it or anything you have said or done since against you. Let's try to be peaceable. After all, neither one of us have shed our blood for the other, we were both bought for a price and that price was Christ's shed blood. On that I think we can certainly agree. Amen?

Mark 11:25-26
And when you stand praying, forgive, if you have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

So let me get this strait. You accuse me of treating you badly while you persevere with patience and tolerance, and then suggest we act as if we have some kind of peace between us? That's a serious accusation (not exactly an olive branch! lol), and also quite false. But it appears you have made your mind up about this. And I'm sure, regardless of any debate or discussion, you will continue to say such things about me. In truth I've been trying my hardest to avoid you in the past several months because of the way in which you have treated me. This thread has served as a good reminder that I must continue to avoid your posts whenever possible. Perhaps you may want to avoid mine as well so that future threads do not derail like this one has. I will not pretend to have fellowship when clearly we do not.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 03:15 PM

Where is your response to post #24 please? I do not see any reply whatsoever from you for that post. So, can you please direct me to it?I did not quote the reply. I merely asked again and again for your exegesis of the passage I so carefully dissected in the two OPs. You are trying to prove your point by merely restating what you've already said. That's not exegesis, that's (forgive me) stubbornness. If you can't refute what I've stated in those two quite lengthy first OPs, then just say so. Insisting that "Jesus said" thus and so without relating it to the context of the passages Paul wrote means you either don't believe Paul agreed with Jesus, or you don't have an exegetical basis for your beliefs. Which is it?

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 03:16 PM

^_^^_^^_^

Hello there Frisbee. How are you?

That's an interesting point also, as we know it is written in Prophecy that in the last days, knowledge would increase, which it has, exponentially in just the past hundred years!

Not even a hundred years ago people were using an "ice box", riding horses and no one had been to the moon. There were no cell phones, no microwave ovens, no automobiles, stereos, no microchips, no computers, no Doppler radar....you get the point.....the list goes on and on.....so, knowledge has surely not only not vanished away but has indeed increased. I also pray in tongues, I received the gift when I was Baptised in the Holy Spirit when I was 19, and I am sure not being puppeted by beezlebub to make me do it. ^_^

Just because people abuse gifts such as the gift of tongues or in some cases even displaying a counterfeit them (with barking and the like.. YIKES!) and a bunch of people speak in tongues outloud in a corporate setting, edifying not the body, which is an UnBiblical use of the gift, doesn't mean that the Biblical purposes are no longer valid AND in fact, a good point to ponder for unbelieving believers is the fact that if the gifts were not given today, then there could be no abuse of the gifts. The fact that there is abuse and counterfeits of the gifts, actually serve to confirm that the gifts are absolutely given and are absolutely not done away with.

Amen, it is God and not men who Baptizes us in the Holy Spirit.:clap:

And amen again on the last expoundings of your post! That is powerful. Great post!

IamRedeemed seems that you got your hands full sister! Was it something I said? LOLOLOL

Fact of the matter is that if you apply the reasoning that the folks giving you a hard time are trying to apply to this scripture to make that case that "tongues have ceased", then they would have to agree that prophecies did indeed fail, and knowledge actually vanished away. It is a case where despite IiJustMe is trying to front every argument and claim in order to win a debate. He went so far at one point as to tell you about how he had changed his mind in the past, so you should now bend knee to him and change your mind too.

Fact of the matter is that God baptizes with the Holy Spirit, not men. We can all have all the opinions we want, but it is God in the 3rd person of the trinity who makes the call, not you and I or anyone else for that matter.

If you look at the timing of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus it was in real time in perfect harmony with the spring feasts of Leviticus 23. From Passover to the Feast of Weeks, Jesus progressed through the shadows which were to foretell of His coming as suffering servant, as we wait patiently for the conquering King. If you continue to examine the Jewish calendar year you will notice that it rained twice a year, once in the spring and then once in fall directly preceding the final harvest for the year. In between is a time where the ground is worked and toiled over, we call this the church age.

On 312 Azusa in Los Angeles, one of several out pourings of the Holy Spirit began to break out as we witnessed the latter rain of the Jewish calendar year, begin. This is not to be confused with the latter day rain movement, this is simply the facts being presented. I am not making any of this up, and it is completely backed by scripture. But the important thing for us to be aware of here is that the harvest follows the autumn rains, and the Jewish feasts end with the Feast of Booths.

I encourage all of you to go and read your bible about these Feasts and to read for yourself about the perfect timing that God used to present Messiah the Prince exactly when the prophet Daniel said He would arrive. To the very year and month. Read both Joel 2 and Acts 2 and compare them for yourselves, and understand then what both Joel and Peter were talking about when they referenced the events that occurred on the Day of Pentecost...

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].

I wont attempt to address all of this in a comment, but I do encourage you to look for yourself. I trust that you will be absolutely delighted in what you discover!

Frisbee

10th April 2008, 03:19 PM

Like I said I went back and read through all of this to get caught up. You said on Page 2 (last entry on that page)...

Throughout my Christian walk I've corrected my theology on more than one occasion when confronted with the reality that I had believed wrongly. You call this the "truth." Please prove it to me. I've given extensive reasoning for my conclusions. The least you can do is give me good exegetical evidence for yours.

It might be me, but I got from that, that you presented the fact that you have changed your mind in the past when you thought you were wrong, and then issued the challenge to prove you were wrong. For what reason? The logical conclusion (explanation) is that you wish that person to do as you did, and change when they see it your way. Again, I may be wrong, but that's how I read that. If I'm wrong then all you were saying was that you were wrong in the past, admitted it, and are looking for a source and not trying to change anyone's mind.

Anyhow...

With regard to prophecy and knowledge failing and vanishing, it's simply not what the scripture says. We can do word studies, and you will see it the way you want to see it, and I will see it as I read it plainly and clearly. I do not deny the Holy Spirit, and do in fact understand that it is extremely dangerous ground to tread on when one tries to make a case that the people who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and receieved a gift from God, did not.

I've received the laying on of hands in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have zero doubt what happened, where it came from and what it means. I understand that if a person has not receieved what I am talking about that they might question what another person says as being true or not, and I can accept that! What I reject out of hand is when folks try to use scripture to tell me that what happened to me, didn't happen to me. It would be like me questioning wheter or not you are saved. I have nothing to say about that, as it is between you and God. My opinion is 100% of no effect in any manner, shape or form. Same goes with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God is the one dispensing the gift, and no other person has the authority or right to judge what happened. You can not believe it, but judging for yourself is extremely dangerous ground to tread on...

mark 3:28-30 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

So if I received the laying on of hands and the subsequent baptism of the Holy SPirit my question to you is simply this...

Was I filled with God's Holy Spirit, or an unclean spirit?
When everyone presents their opinion, that is what we're left with at the end. And to show you that I'm a good sport, I'll tackle this myself where I question whether or not it is a true outpouring of the Holy Spirit or not...

When I hear stories about people "barking" in the spirit I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is my opinion that it is either hyper-emotionalism or perhaps a decieving spirit. The bible never mentions anyone "barking" in the spirit. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Overflowing joy perhaps, but then we're talking about overflowing joy, not "barking in the spirit".

Fair enough?

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 03:24 PM

If all you did was play yourself like a broken record, then you did not
address the post then. Can you direct me to the post that you claim was
in response to post #24?

No, I am not trying to "prove my point" by doing any such thing.
The Scripture speaks for itself, and I have testified in confirmation
that the Scripture is correct, and you are not.

Jesus and Paul do not disagree with each other,
however both of them disagree with you, or rather, you disagree with them.

I did not quote the reply. I merely asked again and again for your exegesis of the passage I so carefully dissected in the two OPs. You are trying to prove your point by merely restating what you've already said. That's not exegesis, that's (forgive me) stubbornness. If you can't refute what I've stated in those two quite lengthy first OPs, then just say so. Insisting that "Jesus said" thus and so without relating it to the context of the passages Paul wrote means you either don't believe Paul agreed with Jesus, or you don't have an exegetical basis for your beliefs. Which is it?

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 03:46 PM

No, I am trying to tell you that you are holding unforgiveness in your heart toward me and you need to let it go because it is festering into bitterness. I have made an active decision to speak to you with civility regardless of how you have treated me. I have not mistreated you Desmalia. And I am not asking you to pretend anything, I really want you to actually let it go. No, it doesn't mean that you have to be my friend or even like me now, but I am another child of God and for the sake of the cross, and for the sake of unbelievers as well as your own sake because of Mark 11:25-26, you need to loose yourself from the animosity just because we disagreed on a doctrinal issue several months back which has bled over into conversations after that because of the ill will you carry in your heart toward me.
If you don't want to derail the thread any more then respond to me via PM.

So let me get this strait. You accuse me of treating you badly while you persevere with patience and tolerance, and then suggest we act as if we have some kind of peace between us? That's a serious accusation (not exactly an olive branch! lol), and also quite false. But it appears you have made your mind up about this. And I'm sure, regardless of any debate or discussion, you will continue to say such things about me. In truth I've been trying my hardest to avoid you in the past several months because of the way in which you have treated me. This thread has served as a good reminder that I must continue to avoid your posts whenever possible. Perhaps you may want to avoid mine as well so that future threads do not derail like this one has. I will not pretend to have fellowship when clearly we do not.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 03:55 PM

If all you did was play yourself like a broken record, then you did not
address the post then. Can you direct me to the post that you claim was
in response to post #24?This is getting old, IAR. I've explained that. I'm not going to do it again. I do apologize, and ask your forgiveness if I've somehow offended you in this discussion. But the time has come for you to put it behind you.

You are avoiding responding to my simple request: Provide exegetical proof for your views of I Corinthians 13 and the ongoing validity of the gifts named therein. If you cannot do so, please just say that.

desmalia

10th April 2008, 04:18 PM

No, I am trying to tell you that you are holding unforgiveness in your heart toward me and you need to let it go because it is festering into bitterness. I have made an active decision to speak to you with civility regardless of how you have treated me. I have not mistreated you Desmalia. And I am not asking you to pretend anything, I really want you to actually let it go. No, it doesn't mean that you have to be my friend or even like me now, but I am another child of God and for the sake of the cross, and for the sake of unbelievers as well as your own sake because of Mark 11:25-26, you need to loose yourself from the animosity just because we disagreed on a doctrinal issue several months back which has bled over into conversations after that because of the ill will you carry in your heart toward me.
If you don't want to derail the thread any more then respond to me via PM.

You are right that I do need to forgive you again. I struggle to do so when you continue to behave the way you have been towards me. I also encourage you also to examine yourself and consider where your attitude has fallen short. So, this is why I think it is best that we part ways and move on. There is no need for bitterness or continued animosity. But clearly we are not capable of getting along either. So let's just move on.

desmalia

10th April 2008, 04:31 PM

Unsubscribing now.

ARBITER01

10th April 2008, 05:03 PM

To build a case with dispensationalism is unfruitful. To claim that the gifts are now gone due to some different church age, but then look the other way and shrug your shoulders when the two witnesses come in revelation and prophesy, is really only defending a denominational church doctrine at it's core, of which us ND's are not suppose to be about.

We need to pay attention to what Jesus told us to do instead of trying to read something else into what Paul said. Once we can agree that Jesus's commandments are still active for today as they ever were, everything that Paul says falls into place, unless a person just wants to hang onto their disbelief and former teachings.

Simon_Templar

10th April 2008, 06:26 PM

TisMe,

Your analysis of the text was good, and quite interesting. However, your conclusions and the reasoning that got you to them were bad, and the reasoning in fact was pretty much non-existant.

you quite rightly make the point that "that which is perfect" must be seen as the completion of that which is in part.

As you point out Paul says we know in part, and we prophecy in part, but then we shall know in full.

He also says, as again you point out, "I shall know, as I am known".

you some how manage to make the jump to the idea that the bible is the perfection of knowledge, though you never actually bother to say why, or give any justification for this belief.
Nor do you actually take into accound WHAT knowledge is being discussed.

There are so many glaring contradictions in the idea that we have perfected knowledge that I hardly know where to begin.

first of all, if you have perfected knowledge, why do you got to Church every sunday and sit and listen to a guy teach?
The obvious answer is that you don't have perfected knowledge, you know in part, just as Paul said.

Secondly, the knowledge Paul is discussing is implied to be distinctly RELATIONAL knowledge. This is shown in the phrase I shall know, as I am known. Obviously, the bible doesn't know you. God knows you.
Thus the knowledge that is being discussed is knowledge of God, in a personal relational sense.

While we can agree that the bible is perfect in the sense of being perfectly reliable.. I don't know anyone who can seriously make the claim that the bible contains complete knowledge of God. The bible itself denies this claim.

What Paul is talking about here is knowing God. He compares our knowledge of God to that of a reflection in a darkened mirror. Our knowledge is shadowy. This describes our situation today as accurately as it did when Paul wrote this.
But the time shall come when we no longer look at God through reflections and shadows, but rather face to face, as he looks on us. Then we shall know him as he knows us. Face to face, intimately and accurately.

Even if you assumed the bible to contain complete knowledge of God, the obvious fact of life all around us is that we don't understand even the bible completely. You could study the bible your entire life read it dozens, hundreds of times and never completely know everything in it or completely understand everything in it.

And that isn't even the complete story of Jesus time on earth, let alone complete knowledge of God.

Moreover, a person simply reading the bible under their own intellect is as likely to misunderstand it as to correctly understand it. The bible itself can't even be rightly understood apart from the very very basic truths in it, without the renewing and revelation of the Holy Spirit.
To then assume that the bible is the perfect knowledge? it defies reason.

The very fact that true knowledge of God can't be attained by mere intellectual endevour but only through the working of the Holy Spirit clearly reflects what Paul implies in this passage, that true knowledge must be relational knowledge.
You can read the bible till you are blue in the face and get no relational knowledge from it at all.

I would suggest that what Paul is talking about here in terms of complete knowledge should not be thought of as knowing everything. Having nothing left to know. Which is impossible to begin with (assuming God to be infinite). Rather I think a case could be made that it should be understood as the METHOD of knowing which is being discussed. Or perhaps you could say it its not complete knowledge, but complete knowing.

We know God through a glass darkly. We only see him through the shadows and reflections. We can have experience spiritually, but we can not see him face to face, we can not know him through direct face to face experience.

God always knows us perfectly because he sees us fully. We do not see him fully.

The time will come when we do see God fully, and we do see him face to face, then we will know him, as he knows us.

Simon_Templar

10th April 2008, 06:38 PM

Yes. It refers to the completion of the canon of the Scriptures. That's not some crazy stretch. It's the only logical conclusion from the context. :)
I guess even before that can be discussed it may need to be established that the canon is actually closed though, huh? I'm finding a lot of people around CF don't even believe it is.
So that's my answer.
Care to share yours?
I honestly don't know how people can draw this conclusion. Show me anything in scripture, or anything from reason which remotely suggests that the bible is the completion of knowledge. Even the completion of knowledge about God, or of God.

Further, Paul in this passage is clearly talking about the knowledge people have, not an abstract repository of knowledge.

"we know in part, but we shall know perfectly" " I shall know as I am known".

Even if the bible is the perfection of knowledge, it has apparently failed in the task of making people know perfectly which is what Paul was talking about.

the idea that you can seriously make the argument that we know in full, is beyond credulity. I can only chalk this up to trying to maintain a position to which you are committed, despite reason.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 06:43 PM

Ignore this. Posted in haste. Sorry.

Simon_Templar

10th April 2008, 06:52 PM

That's precisely what this thread is about. Please read the first two posts. :doh:
I did read the first two posts, and I still don't know how people can draw this conclusion.. My point was not "I don't know why you think this or what your justifications are" it was "I don't know how you can possibly think your conclusion is reasonable based on the evidence" If you go back a post or two, I responded to you based on the first two posts.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 06:53 PM

Your analysis of the text was good, and quite interesting. However, your conclusions and the reasoning that got you to them were bad, and the reasoning in fact was pretty much non-existant. You can only say that if refuse to see the logic of it.As you point out Paul says we know in part, and we prophecy in part, but then we shall know in full ... He also says, as again you point out, "I shall know, as I am known". And ... ?you some how manage to make the jump to the idea that the bible is the perfection of knowledge, though you never actually bother to say why, or give any justification for this belief. Actually, I did. You're sure you read the two OPs?Nor do you actually take into accound WHAT knowledge is being discussed. Since we're talking about the Bible, that would be the revealed will of God.first of all, if you have perfected knowledge, why do you got to Church every sunday and sit and listen to a guy teach? Ask yourself if you actually get new information every Sunday, or do you simply examine more closely that which is already known and revealed? The answer is obvious, though not the one you came up with.Secondly, the knowledge Paul is discussing is implied to be distinctly RELATIONAL knowledge.And since the New Testament is the revelation of the nature of God, that is precisely what the revealed will of God (The Bible) is about. This is shown in the phrase I shall know, as I am known. Obviously, the bible doesn't know you. God knows you. You overlook the fact that He wants to be known, which is the purpose of His giving us the written word.While we can agree that the bible is perfect in the sense of being perfectly reliable.. I don't know anyone who can seriously make the claim that the bible contains complete knowledge of God. The bible itself denies this claim.[/quote]Tell me where it says that, please. I must have missed it.Even if you assumed the bible to contain complete knowledge of God ...[/quote]It's not complete in that it is everything there is to know, but complete in that it is everything we need to know now. That is the flaw of your reasoning, that we are to know everything.now. We need only know what God has thus far revealed, and that was complete with John's Revelation.... the obvious fact of life all around us is that we don't understand even the bible completely.That is not because we can't. It is because we won't. Then again, who has the time to do so?You could study the bible your entire life read it dozens, hundreds of times and never completely know everything in it or completely understand everything in it. But what we are able to understand is sufficient for this life. You prattle on and on about this subject, but it is useless. The Bible is unique in that it's message is for everyone not only on a corporate but on a personal level and it's information is sufficient for this life. It is all God had to say for now. That's all we need to know.

LogosRhema

10th April 2008, 06:53 PM

My only qualm with your argument Iisjustme. You can do all the word studies you want, greek, arabic, jewish, w/e, but in what context is "shall pass away?" You can put your own doctrinal spin on it... pass away could mean as you are saying or it could mean when there are no more humans... or it could mean a million other things... but if you are also doing a Bible study, if you read in Isaiah: "By His stripes we have been healed" To condemn healing in this day, would be to counter what the Bible says right there about Jesus' sacrifice and our promise of healing... which comes by faith and through the Holy Spirit....

Isaiah 53:4-6

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

You can choose to not to believe in God's power promised through the Holy Spirit today, but I warn you as my brother that you are more than holding yourself back. Faith. Your faith will do that. So choose and think how you want to believe, but just remember how faith works.

If they aren't meant for us today then we need a new Bible. Its kind of like God is going "OPPS! Oh well..." Are we to read about these "old" spiritual gifts and simply feel good about them? Might as well rip those pages out! NOT FOR US TODAY! BUMMER! And it is also so easy to say "Well if they are happening today and you saw them, well it isn't of God". Who are you to judge? Were you there? Your blind and rash judgment right there shows me right away what kind of prophet you are. Who or what exactly are you following God or your doctrine? Whom do you serve? Your human understand or God's? I'll pray for you... such a stance is dangerous.

This is exactly why I hate doctrine... its such a waste and holds us back from absolute truth. Stop using human understanding and Listen to God's understanding and what HE meant... This just depresses me to the max...

Proverbs 3:4-6

4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=3&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-16462a)] your paths.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 06:54 PM

Duplicate post. Sorry.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 06:59 PM

but if you are also doing a Bible study, if you read in Isaiah: "By His stripes we have been healed" To condemn healing in this day, would be to counter what the Bible says right there about Jesus' sacrifice and our promise of healing... which comes by faith and through the Holy Spirit....Healing is accomplished by God, not man. Never was done by man. The laying on of hands was not what healed. That was, in the first century and the first century only, a sign to the unbeliever that the power of God was being invoked, and then the healing showed that He had answered. Healing can be accomplished miraculously by God as it was in the apostles' ministry, to confirm their message, but more often it is accomplished through doctors, nurses, medicine and right living. Healing is not "dead" and I never said it was. But it isn't normally seen miraculously, and hardly ever does God allow anyone to show off by "laying on hands" and doing a miracle on the spot. There's too much chance the glory for that act will be misplaced. The miraculous healings today are done when a man goes to the doctor, is told he has cancer that will kill him in six months, but come back in three to check the progress, and when he goes back there is no sign of cancer. That can only be God. No man gets in the way of His glory. My opinion is, most "healers" are frauds. The giveaway to that is that they call themselves, or allow themselves to be called "healers" in the first place.

LogosRhema

10th April 2008, 07:08 PM

Healing is accomplished by God, not man. Never was done by man. The laying on of hands was not what healed. That was, in the first century and the first century only, a sign to the unbeliever that the power of God was being invoked, and then the healing showed that He had answered. Healing can be accomplished miraculously by God as it was in the apostles' ministry, to confirm their message, but more often it is accomplished through doctors, nurses, medicine and right living. Healing is not "dead" and I never said it was. But it isn't normally seen miraculously, and hardly ever does God allow anyone to show off by "laying on hands" and doing a miracle on the spot. There's too much chance the glory for that act will be misplaced. The miraculous healings today are done when a man goes to the doctor, is told he has cancer that will kill him in six months, but come back in three to check the progress, and when he goes back there is no sign of cancer. That can only be God. No man gets in the way of His glory. My opinion is, most "healers" are frauds. The giveaway to that is that they call themselves, or allow themselves to be called "healers" in the first place.
It isn't seen normally because faith has left us we choose not to believe, not the power. The power of the gifts was in the faith. We can't heal anyone. The only thing we can do is be obedient. And through our obedience Christ will be able to properly work through us and do these miracle you condemn as false.

If you read about most of Christ's healings, they did not come from Him. Read what it says almost every time. "Go, your faith has healed you".
Put a stop to your human understanding and grasp what God is truly trying to say. You can put a nice spin on anything and make it sound right and true... but it does not mean it is truth.

We still are preaching the same message today, correct? Confirmation can still come through such means.

Our healing was purchased by His blood on the cross, not a dollar bill that the doctor will get to use on his nice over sized house... What a way to give glory to God! Medicine is given to the glory of man.

ARBITER01

10th April 2008, 07:29 PM

It isn't seen normally because faith has left us we choose not to believe, not the power. The power of the gifts was in the faith. We can't heal anyone. The only thing we can do is be obedient. And through our obedience Christ will be able to properly work through us and do these miracle you condemn as false.

If you read about most of Christ's healings, they did not come from Him. Read what it says almost every time. "Go, your faith has healed you".
Put a stop to your human understanding and grasp what God is truly trying to say. You can put a nice spin on anything and make it sound right and true... but it does not mean it is truth.

We still are preaching the same message today, correct? Confirmation can still come through such means.

Our healing was purchased by His blood on the cross, not a dollar bill that the doctor will get to use on his nice over sized house... What a way to give glory to God! Medicine is given to the glory of man.

That is correct!

The Spirit-led life is a life of obediance, where we hear The Father speak and The Holy Spirit leads us within, and we obey.

That obediance manifests the power of GOD.

To be conformed to the image of HIS Son is be like Him in all ways, not just part of them, and His ministry down here was by the gifts of The Spirit, just like He wants us to work things.

I'm agreeing with you, not trying to lecture you on things, just so you know.

IisJustMe

10th April 2008, 07:38 PM

It isn't seen normally because faith has left us we choose not to believe, not the power.I'm sorry, but I completely reject your viewpoint. The Bible clearly tells us that faith comes not from us, but from God. Are you going to tell me He would fail to provide us the faith to accomplish His purpose, if that is truly what it took? Nonsense! God's plans are myriad and unfathomable, and why He chooses to do things one way one time and another way another time are beyond our comprehension. God is not a "magic lamp" that you rub and get three wishes. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and is able to do beyond our ability to ask or imagine. Healing can be slipping from this mortal coil into the eternal divine presence of Christ, or it can be rising immediately from a death bed and dancing a jig. It can be anything in between as well, and it is not accomplished by prayer or laying on of hands, but by the divine providence of God, according to His will.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 07:42 PM

I don't know what you are talking about IIs, as the only thing that is getting old is you dodging my request for the link to the post that you claim is in response to the whole of my post #24. Forget the first two lines, that is not what I am referring to. If that is what you have been thinking each time I keep asking you to respond to my post and then when you say you did, not giving me the link to the supposed response then I apologize that I did not make it clear that it was the BULK of my post and not the first two lines that I would like a response to.

So that there is no more confusion, I will repost the portion to which I am referring to from post # 24:

Here is the portion to which I have been referring:

Throughout my Christian walk I've corrected my theology on more than one occasion when confronted with the reality that I had believed wrongly. You call this the "truth." Please prove it to me. I've given extensive reasoning for my conclusions. The least you can do is give me good exegetical evidence for yours.

Well, hopefully this will be another one of those times when you shall have to correct
your theology, because just as I said to you before (which is how you are presenting yourself,
which is why the analogy is so fitting)

<<<<when atheists tell us there is no God, or that they do not believe God exists and we know that no matter what they believe it doesn't change the truth as we who believe KNOW that God surely lives, as He has manifested Himself in our lives, the same is applicable to those who claim the operations and gifts of the Holy Spirit are null and void. You are welcome to believe what you will, but it does not and cannot ever change the truth. The only thing that can change is you coming to the knowledge of that truth. >>>>>

Jesus said it is a wicked generation that seeks after a sign. You want me to "prove" it to you,
like how? Perform some kind of a magic trick? That's not going to happen. Should I call you the
next time I am going to cast demons out of someone by the power of the Holy Ghost in the
name of Jesus, so you can spectate? What? What is it that you would require that would still
leave your righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisees?

What is it that you are looking for? Is the Word of Truth not sufficient for you to renew your mind?
Are not testimonies after testimonies of those who have received, eye witnesses after eyewitnesses as well not enough to even cause you to seek God on the matter, delving into His Word, rather than just continue proselytizing the unbelieving believer's theology that you have a current subscription to, down the throats of those who do believe and have not only seen the power of God, the power of deliverance, miraculous healings, the deaf hear, the blind see, the lame walk and have been used as a vessel as well thereby giving you personal testimony that the Word is VALID today, just as it was 2000 years ago?

If that is the case, then what you need, I can't give you. But I know One who can, and if you consider for a moment that there might be one slight iota of a chance that you could be wrong, you then will be in the position to ask Him to show you the truth, and probably not a moment before you come to that place.

God bless

This is getting old, IAR. I've explained that. I'm not going to do it again. I do apologize, and ask your forgiveness if I've somehow offended you in this discussion. But the time has come for you to put it behind you.

You are avoiding responding to my simple request: Provide exegetical proof for your views of I Corinthians 13 and the ongoing validity of the gifts named therein. If you cannot do so, please just say that.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 07:58 PM

Again? Oh come on Desmalia...you haven't spoken a civil word to me since that
conversation I had with someone else that happened to be against one of your
pet doctrines, please be honest with yourself.

And you are saying that we are not capable of being civil to each other, giving each
other a common courtesy that even the heathen are capable of as two women who
love the same Lord who purchased us with His shed blood, for the sake of the cross?

Well, I am sorry you feel that way, and I do not share that position, but since you do,
I'd like to suggest that you place me on your ignore list as that would be the best thing
for you to do at this time then.

You are right that I do need to forgive you again. I struggle to do so when you continue to behave the way you have been towards me. I also encourage you also to examine yourself and consider where your attitude has fallen short. So, this is why I think it is best that we part ways and move on. There is no need for bitterness or continued animosity. But clearly we are not capable of getting along either. So let's just move on.

Simon_Templar

10th April 2008, 08:03 PM

IIsJusMe,

Just to make sure, I reread your first two posts, and I looked through your most recent response to me here.

I didn't find a clear chain of logic as to why the bible is the perfect. What I found was basically what I said before.

Your original textual analysis was very good, and raised some interesting points about the meaning of the words under discussion.
Your analysis of what is to be perfected, was also very good.

your reasons as to why the perfect is not Jesus, are fine..

but then you jump immediately from those points to ...the bible (or the gospel) is the perfect, thefore the sign gifts have ceased.

There is no logic to be missed because there is no logic involved. Its Just a blanket declaration of your view point. It is essentially nothing but assumption.

Further, I think that the assumption made here actually misses important points of the text, which you yourself pointed out.

First and foremost you commit an error of reasoning which appears so close to sleight of hand that it almost appears intentional, though I don't think it is.

Through out the passage in question Paul talks about knowing and prophesying. He talks about them in two ways Knowing in part, and knowing in full.. so in part and in full.

However, in your argument, you move almost immediately from defining the perfection as "knowing in full" to "knowing sufficiently" or "knowing enough".

You even go so far as to say that we can't know fully, and it is an error to think we can, so we should be content to know sufficiently, or to know enough.

However, no where in this passage does Paul say ANTHING about knowing sufficiently or knowing enough. He talks about knowing fully.

Therefore, you and Paul are not talking about the same thing. You are substituting something else in the place of what Paul is actually talking about.

This is made abundantly clear by the fact that Paul compares the fullness of knowing that he is talking about, to the fullness of God's knowing us.

To then turn this around and suggest that he doesn't REALLY mean full knowing, he just means sufficient knowing.. is faulty reasoning at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst. I don't think you are being dishonest, but thats what this kind of sleight of hand interpetation would be if it were knowingly, rather than through genuine mistake.
So unless you can prove from this passage that Paul does not really mean what he says about knowing fully, and he is actually intending to talk about only knowing sufficiently.. you can drop that line of reasoning because it is faulty, unsupported, assumption which on its face contradicts the text.

At one point you made the statement to me that part of my error was thinking that we could know fully now. On this point you are incorrect. That is not part of my error, because I don't believe that we can know fully now. So we are in agreement on that point.
That, however, is precisely MY point. Paul is talking about knowing fully. We can not at this time know fully. Therefore the gifts under discussion have not been brought to an end.

I think it is very clear in the passage that Paul is talking about when we have entered the presense of God directly. Depending upon your eschatological views that could be in the millenial kingdom, or in heaven etc etc.
I think this is clear through out the passage, however, it is made crystal by the first line of verse 12. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face."

Paul goes on to finish out the verse with "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

It is obvious here that Paul directly equates knowing fully with knowing face to face. He is talking about when we know God face to face.

It is impossible to take him literally here and come to any other conclusion, and certainly to come to the conclusion that we have achieved this state of knowing now.

Another point is that you are assuming that Paul is here talking about a gift of knowledge. Essentially like a prophecy in which God gives someone a bit of knowledge supernaturally.
What Paul actually says in the opening of this passage is "though I understand all mysteries, and all knowledge". This does not present the picture of a gift of knowledge in the supernatural sense of knowing something that you had no way to know. Rather it presents an image of simply of boasting in how much you understand and know.
The whole point of this passage has been that the Corinthians were being puffed up and boasting against each other about things that ultimately are unimportant. Some were saying they were so spiritual because of their prophecies or their speaking in tongues, other apparently were saying they were so spiritual because they understood mysteries and had knowledge. This does not necessarily mean that they were talking about the gift of knowledge, though this is a natural assumption because the gifts are under discussion.

Paul's point is that all these things they are boasting aren't going to matter when they stand face to face with God.

Its not going to matter who spoke in tongues, or who spoke prophecies, or who knew more and understood more, because EVERYONE when you stand before God will know him face to face. Its not that those things aren't good, or aren't important, but they are far less important than love.

It is interesting to contrast the way Paul talks about knowledge at the beginning, when he is rehashing the boasts of the corinthians... they were boasting about how much knowledge and understanding they had.

But in the end, when Paul is talking about perfection he does not talk about having knowledge, but about knowing. Specifically he talks about knowing in a relational sense. In other words, having knowledge about God, having understanding of mysteries is fine, but its not the point. Knowing God is the point.

Compare this very important point. At the beginning Paul says "though I understand ALL mysteries, and understand ALL knowledge"

but in the end he talks about knowing in part, and knowing fully. It seems very odd at first that Paul talks about having understanding ALL knowledge, but then goes on to say we only know in part. It seems almost a contradiction.

Unless Paul is contrasting the difference between boasting about having knowledge and understanding, with actually knowing God in a relational sense.

The best, most knowledgable person now only knows in part, the best bible scholar in the world may understand all, but he only knows in part and only sees through a glass dimly.. but then we shall everyone of us, from the top to the bottom, know fully, and we shall know even as we are known.

Love on the other hand is the very essense of our relationship with God, which will last eternally.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 08:05 PM

Exactly. :thumbsup:

I did read the first two posts, and I still don't know how people can draw this conclusion.. My point was not "I don't know why you think this or what your justifications are" it was "I don't know how you can possibly think your conclusion is reasonable based on the evidence" If you go back a post or two, I responded to you based on the first two posts.

I honestly don't know how people can draw this conclusion. Show me anything in scripture, or anything from reason which remotely suggests that the bible is the completion of knowledge. Even the completion of knowledge about God, or of God.

Further, Paul in this passage is clearly talking about the knowledge people have, not an abstract repository of knowledge.

"we know in part, but we shall know perfectly" " I shall know as I am known".

Even if the bible is the perfection of knowledge, it has apparently failed in the task of making people know perfectly which is what Paul was talking about.

the idea that you can seriously make the argument that we know in full, is beyond credulity. I can only chalk this up to trying to maintain a position to which you are committed, despite reason.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 08:07 PM

:preach::amen:

It isn't seen normally because faith has left us we choose not to believe, not the power. The power of the gifts was in the faith. We can't heal anyone. The only thing we can do is be obedient. And through our obedience Christ will be able to properly work through us and do these miracle you condemn as false.

If you read about most of Christ's healings, they did not come from Him. Read what it says almost every time. "Go, your faith has healed you".
Put a stop to your human understanding and grasp what God is truly trying to say. You can put a nice spin on anything and make it sound right and true... but it does not mean it is truth.

We still are preaching the same message today, correct? Confirmation can still come through such means.

Our healing was purchased by His blood on the cross, not a dollar bill that the doctor will get to use on his nice over sized house... What a way to give glory to God! Medicine is given to the glory of man.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 08:08 PM

Great post. Amen. :preach:

My only qualm with your argument Iisjustme. You can do all the word studies you want, greek, arabic, jewish, w/e, but in what context is "shall pass away?" You can put your own doctrinal spin on it... pass away could mean as you are saying or it could mean when there are no more humans... or it could mean a million other things... but if you are also doing a Bible study, if you read in Isaiah: "By His stripes we have been healed" To condemn healing in this day, would be to counter what the Bible says right there about Jesus' sacrifice and our promise of healing... which comes by faith and through the Holy Spirit....

Isaiah 53:4-6

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

You can choose to not to believe in God's power promised through the Holy Spirit today, but I warn you as my brother that you are more than holding yourself back. Faith. Your faith will do that. So choose and think how you want to believe, but just remember how faith works.

If they aren't meant for us today then we need a new Bible. Its kind of like God is going "OPPS! Oh well..." Are we to read about these "old" spiritual gifts and simply feel good about them? Might as well rip those pages out! NOT FOR US TODAY! BUMMER! And it is also so easy to say "Well if they are happening today and you saw them, well it isn't of God". Who are you to judge? Were you there? Your blind and rash judgment right there shows me right away what kind of prophet you are. Who or what exactly are you following God or your doctrine? Whom do you serve? Your human understand or God's? I'll pray for you... such a stance is dangerous.

This is exactly why I hate doctrine... its such a waste and holds us back from absolute truth. Stop using human understanding and Listen to God's understanding and what HE meant... This just depresses me to the max...

Proverbs 3:4-6

4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=3&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-16462a)] your paths.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 08:19 PM

Do you think that Jesus lacked faith Itisjustme?
Surely Jesus had faith, yet He could do NO MIGHTY WORK in his own hometown, why? Because of UNBELIEF. Unbelief grieves the Holy Spirit and is sin. Jesus laid hands on and healed a few with minor sicknesses and that was the extent of it.
(Mark 6:1-6)

That is why many churches and disciples not only do not have but much worse, do not have to GIVE to the world who needs it, the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are active and effective in those who do believe and in believing act in faith by obedience to the Word, and God performs the things He said He would when we do. They have a "form of godliness" but deny the power thereof.

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

I'm sorry, but I completely reject your viewpoint. The Bible clearly tells us that faith comes not from us, but from God. Are you going to tell me He would fail to provide us the faith to accomplish His purpose, if that is truly what it took? Nonsense! God's plans are myriad and unfathomable, and why He chooses to do things one way one time and another way another time are beyond our comprehension. God is not a "magic lamp" that you rub and get three wishes. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and is able to do beyond our ability to ask or imagine. Healing can be slipping from this mortal coil into the eternal divine presence of Christ, or it can be rising immediately from a death bed and dancing a jig. It can be anything in between as well, and it is not accomplished by prayer or laying on of hands, but by the divine providence of God, according to His will.

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 08:25 PM

Great post! I encourage anyone who might consider not
reading it (it is a little long as many of mine are) but it is
worth every second, so go ahead and read it! :thumbsup:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45795948&postcount=63

IamRedeemed

10th April 2008, 08:43 PM

I have been posting Scripture, since my first post and so have other members, but they don't fit your doctrine, so you apparently have chosen to ignore them. I am just telling you that arguing with an unbelieving believer over the gifts of the Holy Spirit who refuses to accept Scripture as well as thousands upon thousands of testimonies from both sides of the fence that confirm the Scripture is no different than debating the existence of God with an atheist, because all of your talking in the world will NEVER change my theology because not only is it in the Word, it is manifest in my life. Someone who does not believe and does not want to believe is going to put their blinders on, cover their ears and say "lalalalalala" just as you have been demonstrating here. I have already been there and done that with you on other topics. You demonstrate that you are not interested in the truth, and as another poster said here, you are walking on dangerous territory on this topic though, possibly attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to the work of magicians or worse demons. Be careful brother. As it is written, if any of you lack wisdom, ask of God.
It is His desire that you know the Truth. The Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth, if you will
follow Him.

This is getting old, IAR. I've explained that. I'm not going to do it again. I do apologize, and ask your forgiveness if I've somehow offended you in this discussion. But the time has come for you to put it behind you.

You are avoiding responding to my simple request: Provide exegetical proof for your views of I Corinthians 13 and the ongoing validity of the gifts named therein. If you cannot do so, please just say that.