What is "Non-Trinitarian-Messianic" mean?

[sthatting]

What are their beliefs about the trinity?

Because I have no idea... :)

[Kris10leigh]

I think it LARGELY depends on who you ask. ;)

I think most of us would tell you that we simply reject man's doctrines.

For me personally, (and only me, I do not speak for the entire faith) I do believe that God and Yeshua are separate, not one being. But I also believe Yeshua is divine. I believe the Holy Ghost IS God without any kind of separation between the two.

Edited to add: :doh: I forgot where I was! Bring on the flaming. :sigh:

[Goya]

... I do believe that God and Yeshua are separate, not one being. But I also believe Yeshua is divine. I believe the Holy Ghost IS God without any kind of separation between the two...

B.H. sister! I think the word basically sums up my belief as well.

I personally believe that just because God manifests himself as Yeshua(Jesus) or as the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean its a tri..nity. :)

[sthatting]

I think it LARGELY depends on who you ask. ;)

I think most of us would tell you that we simply reject man's doctrines.

For me personally, (and only me, I do not speak for the entire faith) I do believe that God and Yeshua are separate, not one being. But I also believe Yeshua is divine. I believe the Holy Ghost IS God without any kind of separation between the two.

Interesting... thank you for the response. :wave:

Where do Non-Trinitarian Messianics woship?

Do you go to a Jewish synagogue or Christian church?

Or is there a denomination that specifically caters to your denomination/faith/whatever?

:)

[Kris10leigh]

Interesting... thank you for the response. :wave:

Where do Non-Trinitarian Messianics woship?

Do you go to a Jewish synagogue or Christian church?

Or is there a denomination that specifically caters to your denomination/faith/whatever?

:)
There is no separate place for us to worship over those Messianics who DO believe in the trinity. As I said, I don't think it's really tied to our faith one way or the other.

I worship in a Methodist church. ^_^ But that is because my husband is the music worship leader there and because the nearest Messianic Synagogue is 45 minutes away. But I come from a Christian background, not a Jewish background.

There are Messianic Synagogues out there. But you will actually find us in places you would not expect, especially in places where there is not a large Jewish population. Many of us simply worship and study in our own homes. I'm pretty sure many of the Messianic JEWS worship in Jewish Synagogues.

[Goya]

Do you go to a Jewish synagogue or Christian church?

Or is there a denomination that specifically caters to your denomination/faith/whatever?

The Shul(synagog) I attend is for jewish messianic. In my congregation, we lean more towards Judaism. Though we still cantor some Christian songs... any Christian that enters through the door will think he/she is in a jewish congregation.

There are about 10-15 messianic congregations in the city I live in. But like kris said... you never know where there would be a messianic congregation out there.:thumbsup:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What are their beliefs about the trinity?

Because I have no idea... :)
OR how about non-trinitarian PRE - Messianic ?
..
..
ie Hebrews and/or Jews and/or Israelis who are (were?) raised with training in Torah and have no idea what 'christians' are talking about (who don't know Torah)
when they bring something like that up....
Jews I've read about (specifically Richard Wurmbrand et al)
rejected 'christendom' not because Yeshua wasn't real,
but because to accept what worldly 'christendom' claims
would require rejecting their Hebraic Knowledge of Torah and what Yahweh has taught them for thousands of years.
Yahweh entrusted Scripture to the Jews, and brought Salvation to the gentiles through the Jews, yet 'the world knows Him not' (and cannot). Simple mystery. (solved when one learns Hebrew)

[sthatting]

OR how about non-trinitarian PRE - Messianic ?
..
..
ie Hebrews and/or Jews and/or Israelis who are (were?) raised with training in Torah and have no idea what 'christians' are talking about (who don't know Torah)
when they bring something like that up....
Jews I've read about (specifically Richard Wurmbrand et al)
rejected 'christendom' not because Yeshua wasn't real,
but because to accept what worldly 'christendom' claims
would require rejecting their Hebraic Knowledge of Torah and what Yahweh has taught them for thousands of years.
Yahweh entrusted Scripture to the Jews, and brought Salvation to the gentiles through the Jews, yet 'the world knows Him not' (and cannot). Simple mystery. (solved when one learns Hebrew)

I'm a tad confused by what you have said here. Are you saying that people who call themselves Christians should learn Hebrew?

Are you saying that Jews shouldn't accept Christianity because they don't speak Hebrew?

:scratch:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I find that the more I learn about Hebrew the more everything in Scripture is simple as Yahweh made it and not as the gentiles have put it... (I do not understand how anyone seeking truth and learning Hebrew can accept a god from any other nation, nor even study another).
The Jews that have been born from above, notably Richard Wurmbrand, have pointed out that for their fellow countrymen to reject the Jesus of world church christendom is right to do - they are not in doing so rejecting Messiah HaMashiach nor rejecting Yahweh's Plan, only man's ideas/doctrines/ perhaps another gospel different than the one true one.
When Richard Wurmbrand met an old man who showed him the real Yeshua and the love of Yahweh, as described in Scripture entrusted to the Jews since Yahweh breathed them, then Richard Wurmbrand repented and turned to Yahweh and was obediently immersed in Yeshua according to Yahweh's Plan
amd evidenced by a drastic life change (as required according to Scripture but denied by man's and demon's doctrines)....
...
this is really more simple than it's coming out,
I'm very tired and going to rest for now......
..
love and seek truth
and keep yourselves from all the idols men lift up.

[2ducklow]

OR how about non-trinitarian PRE - Messianic ?
..
..
ie Hebrews and/or Jews and/or Israelis who are (were?) raised with training in Torah and have no idea what 'christians' are talking about (who don't know Torah)
when they bring something like that up....
Jews I've read about (specifically Richard Wurmbrand et al)
rejected 'christendom' not because Yeshua wasn't real,
but because to accept what worldly 'christendom' claims
would require rejecting their Hebraic Knowledge of Torah and what Yahweh has taught them for thousands of years.
Yahweh entrusted Scripture to the Jews, and brought Salvation to the gentiles through the Jews, yet 'the world knows Him not' (and cannot). Simple mystery. (solved when one learns Hebrew)
no one needs to know hebrew to know god.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love (agape) one another: for love (agape) is of God; and every one that loveth (agapeth) is begotten of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth (agapeth) not knoweth not God; for God is love (agape).

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love (agape) of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love (agape) of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Knowing the agape of Christ, which is the agape of God, enables one to be filled with all the fulness of God, and to know God, You can learn hebrew from now till you die but if you don't have God's agape love, you don't know God . I know little hebrew, but I have tons of god's agape love that He has poured out on me and continues with ever increasing intensity to pour more and more of his agape love out on me as unworthy as I am, and thus I know him extremely intimately.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love (agape) of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

[GerTzedek]

OR how about non-trinitarian PRE - Messianic ?
Ah yes, Judaism. Actually, we know exactly what Christians are talking about. We simply disagree. It is not convincing. Jews are not needy, and not uneducated, and not stupid. Thank you for listening.

[GerTzedek]

Interesting... thank you for the response. :wave:

Where do Non-Trinitarian Messianics woship?

Do you go to a Jewish synagogue or Christian church?

Or is there a denomination that specifically caters to your denomination/faith/whatever?

:)
They are all over the place except the gentile Christian churches -- there they generally won't go. You will find them in the congregations of the two large Messianic Judaism denominations (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America and Union of Messianice Jewish Congregations), and in the smaller selection of One Law and Two House congregations.

IF THEY ARE JEWISH, and also non-trinitarian, they inevitably find their way back to Jewish synagogues, where they are considered meshugah but part of the community -- they just keep their mouths shut about JC. We have one of these at my Chabad house, and I've run into others online.

[Kris10leigh]

They are all over the place except the gentile Christian churches -- there they generally won't go. You will find them in the congregations of the two large Messianic Judaism denominations (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America and Union of Messianice Jewish Congregations), and in the smaller selection of One Law and Two House congregations.

IF THEY ARE JEWISH, and also non-trinitarian, they inevitably find their way back to Jewish synagogues, where they are considered meshugah but part of the community -- they just keep their mouths shut about JC. We have one of these at my Chabad house, and I've run into others online.
Not to argue, but you make it sound as if true Messianic Jews are Jewish. And while on paper that would make sense (Messianic JEW), in reality it doesn't seem to be that way. As you said in the other thread, the only MJ who is Jewish in our little community is Lulav. (I don't think that's true, but it's not far from truth and I'm not 100% sure) Just our little sample suggests that there are many, many MJs who not actually Jewish.

Many of the MJ gentiles DO attend regular churches because there is no other option for us as a place of worship.

[ChavaK]

Not to argue, but you make it sound as if true Messianic Jews are Jewish.
If a Messianic is halachaly Jewish, then they are a Messianic Jew.

Just our little sample suggests that there are many, many MJs who not actually Jewish.
If they are not halachaly Jewish, they should not be calling themselves
Messianic Jews, but instead Messianic Gentiles.

Many of the MJ gentiles DO attend regular churches because there is no other option for us as a place of worship.

This is an oxymoron- there cannot be Messianic Jewish gentiles...
only Messianic Jews (born of a Jewish mother) or Messianic Gentiles
(anyone else)....
:wave:

[Kris10leigh]

If a Messianic is halachaly Jewish, then they are a Messianic Jew.

If they are not halachaly Jewish, they should not be calling themselves
Messianic Jews, but instead Messianic Gentiles.


This is an oxymoron- there cannot be Messianic Jewish gentiles...
only Messianic Jews (born of a Jewish mother) or Messianic Gentiles
(anyone else)....
:wave:

Yeah, I'm learning. :blush: I wrote my above statement before I got called out on my own confusion in another thread. I guess because we had those icons and our only choices were Messianic JEW (trin or non-trin) I truly thought we were all one and the same.

Live and learn! I never thought I was Jewish, not at all. But I did think I was included under an umbrella title of "Messianic Jew". I stand by "Messianic Believer". ;)

[HalcyonFire]

so Chava, messianic non-trin jews are not living unrighteously, but are just mistaken in your opinion? (asking)

[GerTzedek]

MJ stands for Messianic JudaISM. Not Messianic Jew. So it is not an oxymoron for someone to say they are an MJ gentile. They are saying they are a gentile within Messianic Judaism.

[GerTzedek]

Not to argue, but you make it sound as if true Messianic Jews are Jewish. And while on paper that would make sense (Messianic JEW), in reality it doesn't seem to be that way. As you said in the other thread, the only MJ who is Jewish in our little community is Lulav. (I don't think that's true, but it's not far from truth and I'm not 100% sure) Just our little sample suggests that there are many, many MJs who not actually Jewish.

Many of the MJ gentiles DO attend regular churches because there is no other option for us as a place of worship.
Kris:
Within Messianic Judaism, Messianic Jews ARE Jews, and Messianic gentiles ARE gentiles.

And yes, Lulav is the only Messianic Jew here. And while she will certainly make her own choices, I do hope that she will someday repent of her avoda zara and return to her people and to her covenant fully, and I think the odds are very much in favor of that.

Were you involved in a Messianic congregation before and then moved? How did you become convinved that you were obligated to observe Torah even though you are a gentile?

I am absolutely and utterly convinced that there are actually three distinct groups, and that with time they will be seen almost as different religions.

1. Hebrew Christians -- Jews and gentiles who don't really think anyone is bound by Mosaic law but enjoy spicing things up with Judaica, wearing kippah, singing in Hebrew, and other stuff I find amazingly offensive.

2. Messianic Judaism --aka the Hashivenu camp in UMJC and its Rabbinical council who seek to be Jews first. They want to be a Jewish community within Jewish community. They are the ONLY group any of the Orthodox are in dialogue with. They are also the only group the Vatican recognizes as Jewish rather than protestant. Kinzer and Dauermann are the main theologians. While gentiles are allowed, their presence is a concern, as Messianic Judaism is primarily for Jews, and the place for gentiles is considered to be the churches.

3. Messianic Gentilism (I have to thank HaReb for giving me this title) -- the One Law groups and Two House groups who believe that gentiles should observe Jewish law. These groups are basicaly "Of, by, and for" gentiles, with only a few token Jews.

[Kris10leigh]

Kris:
Within Messianic Judaism, Messianic Jews ARE Jews, and Messianic gentiles ARE gentiles.


Yes, and please see my post #15. I do stand corrected. :blush:

[zaksmummy]

Personally as a gentile I have come to prefer the term Hebraic, with our without the Christian. To me this means that I am Torah observant but do not have to follow the Rabbinical laws (however I have read some of the Talmud, and find it fascinating, with much common sense and often, good guidance).

[Torah613]

I'm a tad confused by what you have said here. Are you saying that people who call themselves Christians should learn Hebrew?

Are you saying that Jews shouldn't accept Christianity because they don't speak Hebrew?

:scratch:

honey, were all confused by what he said. Thanks for asking!

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Personally as a gentile I have come to prefer the term Hebraic, with our without the Christian. To me this means that I am Torah observant but do not have to follow the Rabbinical laws (however I have read some of the Talmud, and find it fascinating, with much common sense and often, good guidance).

As we say "Both these and those are the words of G-d."


Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

I'll stick to being a blood bought Noahide. :) (this is the closest to how I see myself)

[Talmidah]

2. Messianic Judaism --aka the Hashivenu camp in UMJC and its Rabbinical council who seek to be Jews first. They want to be a Jewish community within Jewish community. They are the ONLY group any of the Orthodox are in dialogue with. They are also the only group the Vatican recognizes as Jewish rather than protestant. Kinzer and Dauermann are the main theologians. While gentiles are allowed, their presence is a concern, as Messianic Judaism is primarily for Jews, and the place for gentiles is considered to be the churches.

Do you see them as part of the Jewish community? :)

[GerTzedek]

Do you see them as part of the Jewish community? :)

Not at this time, certainly. But I don't know the future. There are too many factors up in the air. I know they are being watched. The following just my best intelligent guess, which probably isn't even worth the usual less than two cents. There are a few things. The first will be how successful they will be in terms of getting their congregations to adhere to the Standards of Observance. The second is how they will deal with the gentile problem. And the third and most important will be how they come to formally word the relationship of JC to the Father -- the MJRC plans to revisit the Nicene Creed, and while it feels a respectful connection to the the Chrstian churches, it tends to view the Creed as belonging to the churches, and not appropriate to MJ.

I discussed this some with Stuart in our last conversation. I brought up Dennis Prager's suggestion, that perhaps Judaism could tolerate Messianic Jews if they simply gave up the notion of the deity of JC. I don't think his dream of MJ being accepted as heretical rather than apostate will ever be realized as long as it tolerates Trinitarianism.

For all I know, they will all just simply get so frustrated trying to get the Jews in their midst to become observant, and so overwhelmed with the gentiles coming out of their ears, that they will realize if they want to be observant and in Jewish community, they need to return to Judaism, and that will be the end of Hashivenu.

[HalcyonFire]

I think alot of them have. (the deity thing).

[Kris10leigh]

I think alot of them have. (the deity thing).
Not from all I'm reading here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "deified" Yeshua is basically the trinity. MJs seem to be split 50/50 on who believes in the trinity and who doesn't.

[HalcyonFire]

that's more than the regular Christian church :)
the steps are there more so than with other groups

[Torah613]

Not at this time, certainly. But I don't know the future. There are too many factors up in the air. I know they are being watched. The following just my best intelligent guess, which probably isn't even worth the usual less than two cents. There are a few things. The first will be how successful they will be in terms of getting their congregations to adhere to the Standards of Observance. The second is how they will deal with the gentile problem. And the third and most important will be how they come to formally word the relationship of JC to the Father -- the MJRC plans to revisit the Nicene Creed, and while it feels a respectful connection to the the Chrstian churches, it tends to view the Creed as belonging to the churches, and not appropriate to MJ.

I discussed this some with Stuart in our last conversation. I brought up Dennis Prager's suggestion, that perhaps Judaism could tolerate Messianic Jews if they simply gave up the notion of the deity of JC. I don't think his dream of MJ being accepted as heretical rather than apostate will ever be realized as long as it tolerates Trinitarianism.

For all I know, they will all just simply get so frustrated trying to get the Jews in their midst to become observant, and so overwhelmed with the gentiles coming out of their ears, that they will realize if they want to be observant and in Jewish community, they need to return to Judaism, and that will be the end of Hashivenu.

Trin or non, Hashivenu or non, there is absolutely no way under the sun, whether heretical or apostate, that MJs could be part of the normative Jewish community. Look at the Karates, they are not part of Jewish community life and they are in the same boat as MJs (for differing reasons of course).

Yochanan

[GerTzedek]

I think I'm thinking more in terms of Chabad extremists who think the Rebbe is Messiah. You look at them and you think, nutcases, but you still see them as within Judaism. At any rate, that's all I really want to say about it. Hashivenu is part of a past I am no longer involved with.

[Torah613]

well yess they are meshugah. As the saying goes, "Chabad is the closest religion to Judaism." Just kidding. The reason they are still within judaism is they do not see him as in any way divine (and its a very small minority that nobody pays attention to anyways).

Yochanan

[Qalevra]

To my knowledge, they also don't ascribe to him "fulfilled prophecies" which lie completely within the realm of foreign theology, such as messianics do with Jesus (salvation, saving from sin, etc.).

[Torah613]

precisely. Although we can all agree he was a wonderful man. He can quite possibly be credited with the revival of fruminess in today's world. I've even seen reform Jews wearing tzitzis. Amazing.

So, to recap--99% of chabad (including the man himself) disagreed that he was HaMoshiach. .99% are ambivilant and .01% actually believed him to be Moshaich. However they have not formally come to believe in anything heretical or rejected Judaism formally and so are still part of hte Jewish community. Karates are not. Neither are MJs although both exist at the very outerlimits of the fringe of the community.

YOchanan

[kivi]

kivi says: The few Chabad-nics that were totally wedded to the Rebbe being the messiah and could not give that up when he died have had to leave CHABAD. I had a few friends in the CHABAD community that were so effected. Of course, they are still Jews, that being the nature of being a Jew. But they most definitely are not within the Orthodox Community. The standrds for a Jew are much higher/stricter than for a gentile when it comes of monotheism. It seems to be part of the fundamental constitution of the Universe that when it comes to B'nai Israel and Judaism and Torah, you can't be part be a little bit 'part of the world'. Either you will become fully involved in Yiddish-ike or you, and through you, your family will be lost. That is the way it works.


I think I'm thinking more in terms of Chabad extremists who think the Rebbe is Messiah. You look at them and you think, nutcases, but you still see them as within Judaism. At any rate, that's all I really want to say about it. Hashivenu is part of a past I am no longer involved with.