What is love, anyway? How do we attain it?

[contriteheart]

This thread was inspired by one in another congregational forum on CF (thanks, asinner :) ).

So what do you think love is? How do we acquire love - how do we become truly loving?

In opposition to the "love is a feeling" attitude prevelant in our culture, some people have said that love is not a feeling, but an action. I believed this for awhile, until I looked closely at I Cor. 13 - something to the effect of "if I give all I posses to the poor, and deliver my body to the flames, but have not love, it profits nothing." If love consisted only of action, then this verse would be meaningless.

[Redheadedstepchild]

What I think is that acting out of love should be exactly that...acting out of love. But, I don't always feel it, KWIM? I struggled with this for awhile but then I read this quote by C.S. Lewis from Mere Christianity, "if you don’t love someone, behave as if you do, and your feelings will catch up." So now I don't beat myself up so much if it seems not to come naturally.

Notice I never actually defined love.:sorry: :P

[contriteheart]

I sort of think this goes along with the "holiness of heart and life" thread.

I'm thinking the idea is that we need to love both with our heart and with our actions.

[cristianna]

This thread was inspired by one in another congregational forum on CF (thanks, asinner :) ).

So what do you think love is? How do we acquire love - how do we become truly loving?

In opposition to the "love is a feeling" attitude prevelant in our culture, some people have said that love is not a feeling, but an action. I believed this for awhile, until I looked closely at I Cor. 13 - something to the effect of "if I give all I posses to the poor, and deliver my body to the flames, but have not love, it profits nothing." If love consisted only of action, then this verse would be meaningless.

I've thought about this ever since I read your post several days ago. And I have to admit, it's actually more difficult to define than I thought it would be.

I somewhat have mixed opinions on love being a choice and/or a feeling. I think some people are hard to love, but you make a choice to love them or not. And I think some people are just too easy to love and you don't really have a choice but to love them.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

This thread was inspired by one in another congregational forum on CF (thanks, asinner :) ).

So what do you think love is? How do we acquire love - how do we become truly loving?

In opposition to the "love is a feeling" attitude prevelant in our culture, some people have said that love is not a feeling, but an action. I believed this for awhile, until I looked closely at I Cor. 13 - something to the effect of "if I give all I posses to the poor, and deliver my body to the flames, but have not love, it profits nothing." If love consisted only of action, then this verse would be meaningless.

Wow, that bes a good point you brought up. There bes many advantages to adopting the "love = action" viewpoint, and it bes worth at least investigating and processing for those benefits and advantages, not the least of which being it allows us to find a space in which to become able to behave lovingly even when we don't feel loving. But the point you make bes an interesting one which does seem to indicate something more than just loving behavior bes required here. But what, exactly?

Well perhaps an attitude or an outlook of some sort, one involving compassion upon others. After all, someone could give all their money to the poor to be seen by men as a "good person", and then allow themselves to be martyred for their beliefs but only leave behind a legacy of being a fanatic unsound of mind. It certainly would suck to go to all that effort and have it be worthless in the end, since neither giving away all one's possessions nor allowing oneself to be executed seem easy things to do, eh?

However let us return to the simple notion of love being a verb and not an adjective -- a course of action rather than an emotional state. The benefit of chewing over that idea lies in being able to separate behavior from feelings so as to take the first step of doing the "right" thing FOR someone else even when we don't FEEL like it or FEEL particularly caring toward them. We can reason from awareness that caring acts in themselves -- sharing your goods, taking time to listen, helping someone in need, setting your wants aside to do something good for someone else, choosing to forgive when you feel like choking the crap out of someone, etc. -- help others to be nurtured, edified, and to grow spiritually, as well as encourage the same from them as they see how much better they fared being treated well than from being treated poorly and in turn can make that mental connection for how they ought to treat others. On the other hand, if one's heart bes not in it to some tangible degree sometimes this can be felt by the other person and the act of charity seems more like an insulting thing to where they would say "don't treat me like a charity case -- I know you really don't care about me."

Where does love come from? Ultimately it comes from God, and whatever we lack ourselves, He bes able to supply because His supply bes boundless and unlimited, never runs out, never gets stale and never gets worn out. When we really want to love and find we just cannot, we can appeal to Him to provide. If all we can offer bes a kindness when our own hearts feel far from it, we can offer that to Him and ask Him to infuse it with His love and make it meaningful and real for the other person. And we can ask Him to increase our understanding for one another because in understanding we become able to love. After all Christ said to love our neighbor AS ourselves, so when we come to points of understanding others we become more able to love them simply because we see them as more like ourselves rather than as foreign or alien to ourselves. Understanding also makes forgiveness easier because we can see the rationales behind what someone did even if we don't agree with the action itself -- we can see what led them there, how they bes feeling, we can sympathize with their struggle.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Defining Love ...

(1) Love bes a power that casts out all fear.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

(2) Love bes given by God to us and comes with empowerment as well as sanity and clarity.
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

(3) The essence of love equates to the willingness to lay down one's life for others. (Literally or metaphorically -- laying aside one's own needs or wants to attend another's would be another way of "laying down one's life" in a practical sense.)
1 John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=3&verse=16&version=9&context=verse) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
John 15:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=13&version=9&context=verse) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

(4) This includes our enemies, when done for purposes of reconciliation:
Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

(5) Love works no ill toward another. Love bes the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=8&version=9&context=verse) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=10&version=9&context=verse) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

(6) The character of love, or what it looks like in action?
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

[MarkEvan]

I think that to say that love is an 'action' is wrong, the action results from love...'if you love me obey my comandments.' Love I believe is the desire or feeling that puts God at the forefront of our lives and therefore makes us desire to serve Him and therefore produces the action, this love is not of ourselves but comes from Him.


Mark :)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The ideal seems to be that, Mark.
but God knows we cannot all manifest the ideal at all times. so He gives us another avenue when our creaturely limitations press too hard upon us.

And still honors us for trying, no matter what. Because HE (not ourselves) bes good ... yeah?

[MarkEvan]

I personally would say that as a father in Christ (not speaking of myself here) it is possible to walk in love all the time.......as a younger believer, we still have to learn what it means to put our trust in Him.


Mark :)

[dayhiker]

I think love is helping our brother or sister if we can. The negative is not doing anything to harm them.

To me its that simple. Tho the hard part can be knowing what we can do and what we can't do. I've found this to be harder to figure out in real life than I thought it would be.

dayhiker

[cristianna]

I think love is helping our brother or sister if we can. The negative is not doing anything to harm them.

To me its that simple. Tho the hard part can be knowing what we can do and what we can't do. I've found this to be harder to figure out in real life than I thought it would be.

dayhiker

Amen to that! And then trying to figure out if I'm really helping or enabling. :scratch: Prayer, scripture and gut feeling. And boy I hope I've never created more damage using that process.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

... trying to figure out if I'm really helping or enabling. :scratch:
OK it has to interject here. This entire notion bes a lie from the pit of hell designed specifically to shut down the wellsprings of compassion from the heart, to turn an individual's thoughts inward upon themselves and their own interests and focus exclusively there to the detriment of whatever benefit they might have been toa another. It bes an easy way out to assuage the pangs of offended conscience, and a ready-made excuse for not caring. While there may be RARE instances in which the notion has some threads of merit pertinent to specific situation here or there, in general nobody -- NOBODY -- ever truly benefits from being cut off from the love, aid and support of another ... EVER.

Now granted, if you can tell beyond a shadow of a doubt that you bes taken advantage of, that the other party bes completely and utterly USING you cold heartedly then THAT would be an appropriate time to cut ties and defend your integrity and worth because anyone giving of themselves, whether it bes time or attention or love or friendship or practical help, etc. deserves at the very least to be appreciated, from a healthy person to be reciprocated. They do not deserve to be sucked dry pointlessly when that care could be going to someone who would be grateful for even a scrap of it and others in need do not deserve to be deprived.

But sometimes people err greatly in these kinds of assessments because they don't see a person simply GET better and STAY better. Some things like depression, mental illness, certain physical illnesses, etc. bes conditions -- one SURVIVES WITH them and no amount of love or care will make them vanish just because someone wishes the afflicted one the best. Christ did state that ANYONE who so much as gave one cup of cold water to the thirsty in the name of merely a disciple would not in any wise lose their "reward" so we have to have faith in that. When ppls have ongoing conditions or situations that create continual and recurrent spiritual, emotional and/or social thirst, those seeking to slake that thirst must not imagine that after the fifth or sixth cup of cold water they will never be thirsty again. NOR should they imagine the thirsting person to be thirsty again "on purpose" just to "milk" them or whatever. Rather they should trust in Christ's words and just offer another cup when they can, and when they cannot, pray God will send someone with a cup to spare, so to speak, and so on.

But passing ultimate judgment on someone suffering with an ongoing situation, affliction, illness, condition, whatever that they cannot just snap their fingers and be rid of, bes heinous and wrong and hurtful, and will NOT help them in the long run.

No one has ever been successfully SHAMED into becoming whole or well.

JC also says count the cost before you dive into something. This bes part of that. Some ppls bes skilled for crisis or triage. Not everyone can handle Hospice (literally or figuratively).

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

by the way it bes not intending to offend with its post above. this bes subject whats got it having strong feelings about, so please forgive if its post seems too impassioned.

[cristianna]

No offense taken here at all. :)

My thing is when an individual, believer or not, repeatedly needs rescuing from an incident they repeatedly, intentionally, and knowingly put themselves in.

Let's do a superificial example:
someone needs financial help paying necessary and vital bills because they have overindulged on lavish things knowing their money was tight to begin with

I'm not talking about alcoholics falling off the bandwagon. Or offering up details to a gossiper. I'm talking about bailing people out of repeated binds simply because they know they can "count on you".

How can anyone, in good conscience say no to paying for an electric bill? Isn't that enabling though? When they openly admit they repeatedly are buying extras they know full well, and say they knew, they should not have bought?

I certainly could not sleep at night knowing electricity, phone or water was in jeopardy when I could help. But I also can't help but to think I'm doing nothing but enabling that person for the sheer reason I'm a "reliable" bill payer for them.

I agree with you about eliminating mental, physical and spiritual concerns or limitations. One truly cannot be held 100% accountable when those cards are on the table too.

But truly, a line can and should be drawn. I can just never figure out exactly where it is.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

My thing is when an individual, believer or not, repeatedly needs rescuing from an incident they repeatedly, intentionally, and knowingly put themselves in.

Let's do a superificial example:
someone needs financial help paying necessary and vital bills because they have overindulged on lavish things knowing their money was tight to begin with

I'm not talking about alcoholics falling off the bandwagon. Or offering up details to a gossiper. I'm talking about bailing people out of repeated binds simply because they know they can "count on you".

How can anyone, in good conscience say no to paying for an electric bill? Isn't that enabling though? When they openly admit they repeatedly are buying extras they know full well, and say they knew, they should not have bought?


OK yeah, in that regard it totally "gets" what you mean. Clearly if they bes openly admitting as much and stating THEMSELVES that they did that knowing full well where it would lead, then yeah, that bes a clear case of "enabling" if you let them take advantage. Definitely. No argument there.

What triggered Moriah bes memories of having been judged that way when such bes not the case at all. But you bes talksy about something totally different, where it clearly BES the case and the person themselves even admits it. In those cases it would definitely say time to reassess what message one's "help" bes sending. Like it said before -- if someone bes clearly taking advantage of you with no appreciation for what you do for them, you might do them a bigger favor by removing what they clearly do not seem to value.

I agree with you about eliminating mental, physical and spiritual concerns or limitations. One truly cannot be held 100% accountable when those cards are on the table too.

But truly, a line can and should be drawn. I can just never figure out exactly where it is.

Yeah, it can be really tough. Especially where it involves your own grown children, you sit there picking yourself to pieces wondering what on earth YOU did wrong to contribute to the situation ... bleah. :( Or where you help someone out a couple times and then they keep trying to touch you up for another and another, and even though they might have legitimate needs you see they bes not doing what THEY could be doing to help themselves -- but if you suggest it you become the big villian for supposedly treating them like it bes their fault, etc. ARGH! Some people think having been on both sides of a situation gives you better insight and more objectivity but man it can work the opposite too and make it all just seem totally more confusing!!! :scratch:

[cristianna]

Yeah, it can be really tough. Especially where it involves your own grown children, you sit there picking yourself to pieces wondering what on earth YOU did wrong to contribute to the situation ... bleah. :( Or where you help someone out a couple times and then they keep trying to touch you up for another and another, and even though they might have legitimate needs you see they bes not doing what THEY could be doing to help themselves -- but if you suggest it you become the big villian for supposedly treating them like it bes their fault, etc. ARGH! Some people think having been on both sides of a situation gives you better insight and more objectivity but man it can work the opposite too and make it all just seem totally more confusing!!! :scratch:

I can't even imagine if it was your child. Here I get all queasy and second guessing myself over family members. I'm about ready to tell them, hey my encouragement and ear are free, but above and beyond that, the free ride and get out of jail free cards have expired.

Two family members have already stopped talking to me because I've expressed concern over not taking responsibility for one's actions- of which they do the same thing to me too. And one is probably only thoughts away from cutting ties with me.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Cristianna -- :hug: -- just cuz.

Fortunately it has not come to get out of jail cards, but oldest daughter has had trouble keeping a job these past few months and it has basically been covering her behind most of that time so she won't be out on the street. A few hundred dollars a month bes a small price to pay for not having to invoke the moving-back-home monster ... which would SO not work it bes not funny ....

Next time though, she will be told "ask your father this time". He has more money than Moriah does anyway! :D

[Kristen.NewCreation]

Very interesting discussion. I went to the dictionary to get a starting place on definitions... wow... it's confused about defining love as well! It addressed love as anything from feelings to sex, with like 25 definitions, even though they were similar. :swoon:

I don't think I can define love in a simple definition, but I'd suggest that love is experiencing a feeling of caring and concern for another person, even when it's difficult.

I partly agree with this post:
I think that to say that love is an 'action' is wrong, the action results from love...'if you love me obey my comandments.' Love I believe is the desire or feeling that puts God at the forefront of our lives and therefore makes us desire to serve Him and therefore produces the action, this love is not of ourselves but comes from Him.
If we don't have the desire to love someone, we won't. Yet, I don't agree with the feeling... because there are times when we don't feel like loving someone because of our other feelings... but does that mean we don't love them? I do agree, however, that if God places the desire in our heart to love someone, then actions will follow.

With that said, I believe choice = action. I may choose to love someone who has hurt me... but then what does love look like.. and I think that is answered by this post:

The character of love, or what it looks like in action?
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

In general, I have to agree that love = action, because I can feel I love someone all I want, but if I don't show it, how would they know?

[silentpoet]

Paul once said that if he could be cut off from God forever he would do it for the sake of his people(the Jews). Aside from the cross this is the clearest example of Love I have found in all my years of reading the bible. And it is perhaps more personal for me than even the cross. Love in its ultimate form or expression is self sacrifice When you can say what Paul said, you can say you know love.. When you know in a profound way and on a deep level why Jesus chose and even embraced the cross and can say you would do the same, you know love. Such love shows you are very close to God.

[contriteheart]

Paul once said that if he could be cut off from God forever he would do it for the sake of his people(the Jews). Aside from the cross this is the clearest example of Love I have found in all my years of reading the bible. And it is perhaps more personal for me than even the cross. Love in its ultimate form or expression is self sacrifice When you can say what Paul said, you can say you know love.. When you know in a profound way and on a deep level why Jesus chose and even embraced the cross and can say you would do the same, you know love. Such love shows you are very close to God.

I think this post hits the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

In general, I have to agree that love = action, because I can feel I love someone all I want, but if I don't show it, how would they know?
Exactly. Love bes as love DOES. Just like hate bes as hate does. What someone else feels from us has nothing to do with what we feel inside, but with what we show them, and how we treat them.

In all fairness though we all bes a bit banged up from this journey and even our best intentions to show that love can fall short or be misunderstood or misinterpreted. That bes why we need to be generous with others, assume the best in them instead of the worst. For LOVE also "covers a multitude of sins". :thumbsup:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Paul once said that if he could be cut off from God forever he would do it for the sake of his people(the Jews). Aside from the cross this is the clearest example of Love I have found in all my years of reading the bible. And it is perhaps more personal for me than even the cross. Love in its ultimate form or expression is self sacrifice When you can say what Paul said, you can say you know love.. When you know in a profound way and on a deep level why Jesus chose and even embraced the cross and can say you would do the same, you know love. Such love shows you are very close to God.
Moriah has a heart for Lucifer in this regard -- which frequently causes it to be criticized and condemned by Christians. But it would gladly sacrifice its own salvation to see him reconciled with God.

It bes nowhere near as close to God as it needs or would like, though. :(

By the way silentpoet, Moses also offered his life for the rabble of unrepentant rebels that bes Israel back in his day ... that bes why Revelation makes reference to that special segment of the population at the end of time who will sing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb ... because they will manifest this same love and thereby immanentize the eschaton

[MarkEvan]

Paul once said that if he could be cut off from God forever he would do it for the sake of his people(the Jews). Aside from the cross this is the clearest example of Love I have found in all my years of reading the bible. And it is perhaps more personal for me than even the cross. Love in its ultimate form or expression is self sacrifice When you can say what Paul said, you can say you know love.. When you know in a profound way and on a deep level why Jesus chose and even embraced the cross and can say you would do the same, you know love. Such love shows you are very close to God.




Or you could put it as Jesus did 'greater love has no one than this, to lay his life down for his friends.'



Mark

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Except JC's bes even greater ... Him laysies down for His enemies!! :clap:

[MarkEvan]

Except JC's bes even greater ... Him laysies down for His enemies!! :clap:



:amen:



Allthough in this context I believe that even our enemies are our 'friends,' and that we have to put them first as well........but only with the intention that they seek out the living God.


Mark

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

See that bes the awesome thing about God and His Love. His Love bes the mightiest weapon in the Universe for destroying His enemies --


-- by makesy them His friends. :thumbsup:

[silentpoet]

Or you could put it as Jesus did 'greater love has no one than this, to lay his life down for his friends.'



Mark
No Paul's statement goes even beyond that. I am not saying it supercedes what Jesus said, but it takes it to the utmost level. And what Paul says resonates with me more than the statement of Jesus you quoted. Maybe because I find Paul easier to relate to than Jesus. I do comprehend what Jesus felt when He chose the cross. I would do the same for love. But sometimes I don't understand Jesus since He is both fully God and fully man. Paul I understand a little better since he was just a man like me.