Let's examine Messianic Judaism

[No Swansong]

Being that it is clear that I am not a Messianic Jew I thought it would be interesting to discuss Messianic Judaism.

I found some very interesting definitions of what is a Messianic Jew.

The first place I looked was your Sticky: I found this.



What is a Messianic Believer?



In a nutshell:

Messianic Believers are both Jew and Gentile.
Messianic Believers follow Yeshua ( Jesus) as revealed in the Scriptures ( both the 'Old' Covenant and the 'New' Covenant).
Messianic Believers seek to live lifestyles in line with the commandments and teachings contained in all of Scripture.What that lifestyle looks like may differ from one to another in some ways - but we would each consider ourselves as living a lifestyle "in line with the commandments and teachings contained in all of Scripture".

More in depth:

What is a Messianic believer? Messianic believers come from all walks of life, from gentile Churches to Jewish synagogues , to even Jewish and gentile atheists. Each brings with them their own unique baggage from past experiences and teachings thus having different understandings of What Messianic Judaism should be. Some are in the 'Puppy love' stage, where they have finally found their true love in his true setting, others are more mature, in their walk and practices. Some are even considered Orthodox in their beliefs and daily walk with Messiah. But these who have chosen to follow Yeshua as the Bible says, and not how man says, have one thing in common, they seek the Truth. They may disagree on what this may be, and where it can be found (only in the bible , or also in other Jewish sources, that help to see a truer picture of Yeshua's life) but the goal is the same, that of getting closer to the true Messiah, and seeking to walk in his ways.

The main focus should be on Messiah, and of Jews and Gentiles worshiping G-d as one, with one heart.

Our faith can be more defined as our belief in who Messiah was, is, and will be, as promised is what saves us, that and repentance from our sins. The 'works ' we do are based on our love for Messiah, and his command to Follow him and to show our love by obeying his commandments. We believe his commandments started in the Garden of Eden, in Genesis and they extend to the book of the Revelation.

We are not saved by our works but we believe without our works, our faith is dead.

We are called to be a witness to the world and part of this witness is obedience to the word.

Some shared beliefs of Messianics are:
Remembering and Keeping Shabbat ( or Sabbath)
This means from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Many have their own way of keeping it, some of the traditions are a special meal prepared before Shabbat begins, followed by prayers and singing. Going to a service: either a home service or in a synagogue for Messianic believers- some also attend Normative Judaism synagogues as well. Resting, reading the Torah portion for that week, Hebrew study, as well as ending with a special service called Havdallah, to mark the end of Shabbat and the beginning of the work week.

Some commandments regarding Shabbat that are kept include, not doing any commerce (any buying or selling). Not lighting a fire, which requires that cooking for the day be done ahead in the prior week. And not traveling far from one's home.

Another shared belief is in the dietary rules found in the Torah.
On the whole most Messianics keep some level of restrictions such as not eating pork or shellfish, while a small percent keep what is called Kosher. Kosher involves at the least four things:. 1. That the animal be considered clean by the L-RD as listed in Leviticus 11.
2. They must be slaughtered properly and the blood disposed of in a manner in respect to the lose of life, and drained fully from the animal ( chicken or mammal, not fish)
3. Fat from certain parts is removed and not eaten.

Some follow the stricter Rabbinic interpretation of separation of meat and dairy which involves not eating any dairy products, ( milk, cheese, butter, etc) with meat, including fowl but not fish.
Other things taken into consideration are:

Blemishes removed ( cancers, tumors, legions etc)
That they are pure in that nothing was added to the meat that is unclean ( for instance in un-kosher ground meat in the US you can legally add extra fat which may or may not come from a cow, most times it is from a pig, and also they add blood to make it more appealing red color. )


Another thing that some Messianics practice is Niddah, or family purity. Generally this involves mainly around the women of the house, and involves separation during her menses and using a ritual bath called a mikvah afterwards to return to a state of cleanness.

Family purity also involves modesty and many more Orthodox Messianics dress very modestly , not wearing any clothing that would cause a brother to stumble. This may or may not include head coverings of some sort, from a head band as a token to full covering.

[jwp]

Shouldn't we all be following the Messianic Judaism flavor of Christianity? I mean Jesus himself was a Jew and followed all of the traditions.

[No Swansong]

Well that is an interesting question and as a believer I of course will consider such a question however I intend to dig deeper into what exactly Messianic Judaism is. I intend to get to the scholarly level of the definition of what a Messianic Jew is according to the majority of Messianic Jews. Then I will consider whether or not it would be beneficial to pursue the practice of a culture to which I do not belong.

[visionary]

There is a difference between a Messianic Jew and Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Jew is a Jew by blood who believes in the Messiah. That leaves how they worship the Messiah open to that individual jew, whether they choose to worship him roman style or Judaic style or both. The theology of romanism and judaism is vastly different from holidays to worship service and understandings.

Messianic Judaism is first and foremost a faith that believes in Yeshua as the Messiah. Judaism is the style of worship for a variety of reasons and to a wide variety of depth by both jews and gentiles. It leans away from Romanism and towards Judaism in practice, faith, theology, and lifestyle.

[No Swansong]

Well so far I have learned that this very board has decided that both Jews and Gentiles can be considered Messianic Jews. We will explore that idea further. We will visit some websites that both agree and disagree with that statement. I wonder how do we decide which is correct?

Using a Dictionary is often times a good place to start for a very brief definition. Let's see what some say:

messianic
Main Entry:mes·si·an·ic file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/COMPAQ%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?messia03.wav=messianic%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˌme-sē-ˈa-nik\ Function:adjective Etymology:probably from French messianique, from messianismeDate:circa 1834 1 : of or relating to a messiah (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/messiah) 2 : marked by idealism and an aggressive crusading spirit <messianic zeal>




http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Messianic

Judaism

4 entries found.

Judaism Conservative Judaism Orthodox Judaism Reform Judaism
Main Entry:Ju·da·ism file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/COMPAQ%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?judais09.wav=Judaism%27%29)file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/COMPAQ%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?judais02.wav=Judaism%27%29)file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/COMPAQ%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?judais01.wav=Judaism%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈjü-dē-ˌi-zəm, ˈjü-də-, ˈjü-(ˌ)dā-, British also ˈjü-ˌdi-zəm\ Function:noun Date:14th century 1 : a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions 2 : conformity to Jewish rites, ceremonies, and practices 3 : the cultural, social, and religious beliefs and practices of the Jews 4 : the whole body of Jews : the Jewish people

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Judaism


I checked a number of online dictionaries and found nothing of any substantial difference from the above.

However I did find the following from the "Concise Dictionary of Religion" interesting. Please note it's publisher is Intervarsity Press a publisher known for it's scholarly works.


JUDAISM, ANCIENT: the religion of the HEBREW BIBLE which proclaims a COVENANT between GOD and the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. From ABRAHAM the JEWISH People develop as a distinct nation who experience the SALVATION of God and were given His laws by MOSES during the EXODUS. In Sinai, the Covenant is renewed and the Israelites enter Canaan. A new state occurs during the second half of the fifth century B.C. when EZRA reorganizes the community and reinstitutes the Covenant. Slowly HELLENISM influenced Jewish thought and the theocratic State gave way to a Commonwealth. At the same time a more liberal interpretation of the TORAH emerged as Persian and Greek ideas influenced Jewish thought. Various schools, about which we really know little, such as the PHARISEES, SADDUCEES, ZEALOTS and the QUMRAN COMMUNITY developed until the religion was brought to an abrupt end with a revolt against Roman rule and the destruction of JERUSALEM in 70 A.D.

JUDAISM, MODERN: when Eastern Europe--the place of refuge--became a death trap with Cossacks slaughtering JEWS, ISRAEL ben Eliezer Ba'al Shem Tov, "The good master-of-the-name," became spokesman for those who had no learning but a simple PIETY. He taught the love of nature, music, dancing, direct communion with GOD. His followers told each other stories: the peasant who recognized the alphabet and asked God to order it into the proper prayer and of the boy whose whistling in the synagogue was more important than the scholars learning. Thus Hasidism arose as a mixture of PIETISM, MYSTICISM and ANTINOMIANISM which swept through Polish Jews at a time when the Western religious authority was dying due to the Age of Reason. Hasidism came into its own as the commercial middle class gained power and confidence and there was a lowering of religious and class barriers. The largest Jewish community today is in the United States.

JUDAISM, RABBINIC: after the loss of JERUSALEM and the destruction of the TEMPLE in 70 A.D. the scattered JEWISH community sought a new center which it found in a new interpretation of its religious heritage known as MIDRASH. Everything worth knowing was to be found in the TORAH--and interpreted by the TALMUD--which evidences concern for the whole of life. The central motive of Rabbinic Judaism was henceforth the quest for underlying meaning and ethical action in Jewish life.

JUDAIZERS: CHRISTIANS who seek to restore the requirements of JEWISH law within the CHRISTIAN community. A movement among early Christians which sought to reform JUDAISM and make GENTILE converts conform to Judaic practice. After the destruction of the TEMPLE in 70 A.D. and the disappearance of the JERUSALEM CHURCH, the movement seems to have lost its force although similar groups appear throughout Church HISTORY.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/concise/WORDS-J.html

Occassionally when beginning a scholarly study I will take a quick look at the various Wiki's. While these are certainly not the "standard" for scholarly inquiry they are usually very helpful in providing an introduction to a particular subject. One of the better of these is the project called Fact-Archive.com

movements, all claiming a connection with Judaism (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Judaism). Beliefs and practice range from evangelical Christianity (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Evangelicalism) to close to Orthodox Judaism (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Orthodox_Judaism), while accepting Jesus (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Jesus) to be the Messiah (and God), and using the New Testament (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/New_Testament) as scripture (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Scripture). The groups range from those comprising mostly of Jews (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Jew) to those which are mostly gentile (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Gentile) in membership; the majority are mixed. Perhaps the best known of the Messianic groups, although certainly not the largest, is the controversial Jews for Jesus (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Jews_for_Jesus). Its stated aims are to educate Evangelical Christians concerning the Jewish origins of their Christian faith, and to convert Jews to Christianity. Most Jewish converts to Christianity do not consider themselves "Messianic Jews". Many Protestant and Catholic churches have Jewish converts among their members, but these members self-identify as Christians. They also sometimes are referred to as Jewish Christians (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Jewish_Christians), Hebrew Christians, or Christian Jews. The term "Messianic Jew" is used only to refer to those affiliated with organizations and/or congregations that claim to be specifically part of the self-described Messianic Jews movement.
Messianic Jews commonly use the name Yeshua (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Yeshua), which may have been Jesus' Hebrew (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Hebrew_language) or Aramaic (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Aramaic_language) name. Some Messianic Jews do not consider themselves "Christians", preferring to call themselves Messianic or "Torah-Observant" Jews.
While many Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish (and as such would be considered Jews even by Orthodox Jewish (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Orthodox_Judaism) standards), Messianic Judaism is not seen as a legitimate form of Judaism by any recognized Jewish organization or leaders, apart from a handful of dissenting voices among the Reform (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Reform_Judaism) and Reconstructionist (http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Reconstructionist_Judaism) Jewish movements.

http://fact-archive.com/encyclopedia/Messianic_Judaism

More to come from Fact-Archive.org. I discovered some very interesting things from this particular source.

[jwp]

I don't believe most American Christians have much profound knowledge on Jewish Culture. Their Holidays, customs et. al. were all known and followed (literally to the letter of the law) by Jesus.

I watch this TV preacher on Sunday nights, his name is Perry Stone. I have to tell you that he is the most profound Christian preacher/teacher I have ever known. Why? He ties all of his teachings in with the Jewish traditions. He digs into the Mishnah to find out root causes for the reasons things are done as they are.. It turns out as we've all suspected that indeed "There are reasons for everything" being done the way they are.

A good example was the teaching he gave on Manna. He researched what the Jewish tradition said about it. In the old testament it said in the book of Numbers that it was similar to corriander seed in appearance. Well the Jewish tradition held it as a type and shadow of the Messiah. Turns out that we as Christians benefit from this because Manna was bread for the Jews in the wilderness and the Corriander seed has stripes on it. We read in the book of Isaiah that "By his stripes we are healed." Manna was a type and shadow of Jesus Christ himself....

There are literally thousands of other teachings like this whereby the profound knowledge of the Jewish people understood the old convenant application of the teaching. We as Christians can only benefit from knowing the internal teachings and traditions of the Jewish culture and applying it to our knowledge that the Messiah has come.

Other very profound concepts in the old testament include: The word "Adam", Day and Night, The Woman, Birth, the Passover, the Exodus, the story of Joesph, the story of Noah, the story of Jonah... All of these stories of the old testament point to one thing.. Jesus in Jerusalem.. There are thousands of these mini testaments all pointing to Jesus.

[visionary]

JUDAIZERS: CHRISTIANS who seek to restore the requirements of JEWISH law within the CHRISTIAN community. A movement among early Christians which sought to reform JUDAISM and make GENTILE converts conform to Judaic practice. After the destruction of the TEMPLE in 70 A.D. and the disappearance of the JERUSALEM CHURCH, the movement seems to have lost its force although similar groups appear throughout Church HISTORY.

I think that Judaizers is a correct and incorrect term in that statement.

Judaism as spiritually understood and practiced Judaism as taught by Yeshua and his talmidims (whether jew or gentile) is the true Judaism as intended by God. Remember scripture says "the law is spiritual"... very important concept that can not be ritualized, legalized, or finalized as in done away with.

Judaizers as in ritual legalizing without spiritual understanding will always not work with God even if they take the name of Yeshua as their messiah.

[visionary]

The term "Messianic Jew" is used only to refer to those affiliated with organizations and/or congregations that claim to be specifically part of the self-described Messianic Jews movement.

Good statement.

[No Swansong]

Yes but in my next post I will show how the groups who hold this definition are considered the fringe of the organization and that this definition is not accepted by most mainstream Messianic groups. Just be patient I have pages and pages of quotes from the Messianic Movement.

[No Swansong]

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Funny about that isn't it?

[jwp]

Saw Perry Stone last night in Israel talking about the tribe of Gad and how they refused to cross the Jordan. Turns out that action led them to be too far away from Jerusalem to participate easily in going to the temple. So what did they do? They created their own temple and began their own worship. Turns out it wasn't the right thing to do, but get this, remember the story in the new Testament where Jesus was casting out demons and they went into a bunch of Pigs and drowned themselves? Guess where that happened? In the same town the Gadittes had built that temple. At that time no respecting Jew raised pigs either as they were considered unclean. But it turns out that Zeus required Pig sacrifices. So the Pig story takes on meaning I never ever would have thought about. This is what I'm talking about when I say the more we as Christians dive into the culure, history and tradition of Israel that we start to see deeper meaning to the scriptures.

This fellow Perry Stone is exceptionaly adept at bringing out these types of teachings. I would have to say he does it so well because he's taken a keen interest in the Jewish culture, tradition, study and writings.

[visionary]

Saw Perry Stone last night in Israel talking about the tribe of Gad and how they refused to cross the Jordan. Turns out that action led them to be too far away from Jerusalem to participate easily in going to the temple. So what did they do? They created their own temple and began their own worship. Turns out it wasn't the right thing to do, but get this, remember the story in the new Testament where Jesus was casting out demons and they went into a bunch of Pigs and drowned themselves? Guess where that happened? In the same town the Gadittes had built that temple. At that time no respecting Jew raised pigs either as they were considered unclean. But it turns out that Zeus required Pig sacrifices. So the Pig story takes on meaning I never ever would have thought about. This is what I'm talking about when I say the more we as Christians dive into the culure, history and tradition of Israel that we start to see deeper meaning to the scriptures.

This fellow Perry Stone is exceptionaly adept at bringing out these types of teachings. I would have to say he does it so well because he's taken a keen interest in the Jewish culture, tradition, study and writings.Amen... definitely new depth and insights into the multi-level of reasons why.

[A_Pioneer]

Messianic Jews were called the Way before they were called Christian in Antioch. Three thousand souls on the day of Shavuot were saved and followed the Way of the Messiah and went to the Temple and were obedient to the Torah of Moshe.

Shalom

[jwp]

So does anyone know how difficult it would be to learn Hebrew?

[Henaynei]

So does anyone know how difficult it would be to learn Hebrew?as with any totally new skill, it is not easy - but linguistics the world over say English is the hardest language to learn... we have so many words, with so many meanings and words that sound alike with totally unrelated meanings... then add our funny conjugation and gender issues.... OIY

if you have already learned a second language it would be easier because you have already broken down the English language mindset..... but I have known both young and old to learn it and multiple of thousands of every age group learn it every year in Israel in crash language courses immigrants are required to take call ulpan! :)

[Lulav]

Well so far I have learned that this very board has decided that both Jews and Gentiles can be considered Messianic Jews. We will explore that idea further. We will visit some websites that both agree and disagree with that statement. I wonder how do we decide which is correct?

Using a Dictionary is often times a good place to start for a very brief definition. Let's see what some say:


Would you please give link or reference to where you got the idea that gentiles can be considered Messianic Jews? Messanic yes, but Jews? How is that?

[Lulav]

Yes but in my next post I will show how the groups who hold this definition are considered the fringe of the organization and that this definition is not accepted by most mainstream Messianic groups. Just be patient I have pages and pages of quotes from the Messianic Movement.May I ask why you seem to want to make it so we have no denomination our own? I've seen you use this term 'fringe' before, that is slanderous. Many that come here are not Mainstream Messianics, and for a good reason, they tend to mirror the Mainstream Christian churches too much. Those that are on the 'fringe' as you say, are those that are more orthodox in their practices. Many that I've seen hang out here are those who are more into the why than the what. If you want to know what that means, just ask.:)


Saw Perry Stone last night in Israel talking about the tribe of Gad and how they refused to cross the Jordan. Turns out that action led them to be too far away from Jerusalem to participate easily in going to the temple. So what did they do? They created their own temple and began their own worship. Turns out it wasn't the right thing to do, but get this, remember the story in the new Testament where Jesus was casting out demons and they went into a bunch of Pigs and drowned themselves? Guess where that happened? In the same town the Gadittes had built that temple. At that time no respecting Jew raised pigs either as they were considered unclean. But it turns out that Zeus required Pig sacrifices. So the Pig story takes on meaning I never ever would have thought about. This is what I'm talking about when I say the more we as Christians dive into the culure, history and tradition of Israel that we start to see deeper meaning to the scriptures.

This fellow Perry Stone is exceptionaly adept at bringing out these types of teachings. I would have to say he does it so well because he's taken a keen interest in the Jewish culture, tradition, study and writings. Yes, I watched that too. However I can't find any information on that to back it up, that happens sometimes with Perry's Scholarship, which he sometimes gets from others and doesn't credit them.

Messianic Jews were called the Way before they were called Christian in Antioch. Three thousand souls on the day of Shavuot were saved and followed the Way of the Messiah and went to the Temple and were obedient to the Torah of Moshe.

Shalom:thumbsup:

So does anyone know how difficult it would be to learn Hebrew?If you start by learning the roots of the words, it isnt all that hard, and it also depends on how strong your dedication is to it as well. :)

[visionary]

Thread closed per OP