Real Judaism? Real Messianic Judaism?

[ShirChadash]

In light of recent comments I've read on here, regarding the "brand" of MJ theologies on this forum... and the digs against gentiles following Messianic JUDAISM that sometimes come up... I would like to ask: what are and are not acceptable things in normative Judaism? (speaking as one who simply doesn't yet know...)

Specifically re: Kabbalah (ancient Jewish, not the Madonna-variety as I understand there to be a difference) -- is Kabbalah respected and studied by many in normative Judaism? Even if few study it -- is it accepted and respected as a part of/study within normative Judaism (within any branch of Judaism)?

If so -- I can understand perhaps why some people might argue against studying Kabbalah (and to be sure, I imagine it is nowhere near for everyone to do so... personally, I have a lifetime of study in Judaism, and MJ ahead of me... I dunno that I would ever get into Kabbalah, and I am not 'big' on mysticism of any sort, anyway), but it surely cannot be argued that one is not studying Judaism or even Messianic Judaism, if one includes Kabbalah in his study and discussions here, and Kabbalah is an accepted aspect of normative Judaism. true? I don't understand why someone might say that Kabbalah is somehow foreign to Judaism/Messianic Judaism? New Agey Cabala/Qabala -- of course. But JEWISH Kaballah? :scratch:

Also wanting to ask: may not gentiles study Judaism... become well versed in Judaism... Embrace and practice Judaism? (yes, I have heard the "gentiles can't_________ (fill in the blank -- keep Shabbat, Pesach, etc., but I mean, seriously, is a gentile not capable and free to learn what he will, even if only on his own, or on forum discussions like we find here?) If so -- then can't those gentiles who have learned, are learning, will learn more, answer questions on Judaism and Messianic Judaism if those questions are either within their realm of personal experience (waving to those of you who attend shul and believe in Yeshua) or are topics they have studied, or both?

To me -- the most real Judaism... is JUDAISM and YESHUA. Messianic Judaism. So -- just because I am a non-Jew, does that mean I cannot possibly be studying, learning, gaining any facility and knowledge of, and adhering more and more to Judaism of any sort -- even Messianic Judaism? Is what I learn and practice merely Messianic Gentilism no matter what of Judaism I might believe/learn/practice, and is it a misnomer to call it Messianic Judaism? I do not call myself a Messianic Jew -- and won't. But what I do say is that my family and I are learning Messianic Judaism. And I imagine that the answers I've gotten to my questions here have been sound, solid answers rooted in Judaism and Messianic Judaism, regardless whether they have come from Jews, Messianic Jews (yes, we have had a few here, seems to me), or from well-learned Messianic non-Jews who have embraced/are embracing Judaism.

I hope to become one of those ^ types :) but it can be very disheartening to see someone indicate that people here are following a confusing "brand" of Messianic Judaism and that people here aren't practicing Messianic Judaism unless they, as individuals, are Jewish. :help: So what is "real" in Judaism -- real, accepted paths of study/levels of depth, whatever. And do any and all of those levels of depth/study belong in Messianic Judaism, should one wish to examine them, or do any of them conflict so inherently with belief in Messiah, that it shouldn't be studied or considered? :confused:

Todah and Shalom! :hug:

[visionary]

In light of recent comments I've read on here, regarding the "brand" of MJ theologies on this forum... and the digs against gentiles following Messianic JUDAISM that sometimes come up... I would like to ask: what are and are not acceptable things in normative Judaism? (speaking as one who simply doesn't yet know...)

Specifically re: Kabbalah (ancient Jewish, not the Madonna-variety as I understand there to be a difference) -- is Kabbalah respected and studied by many in normative Judaism? Even if few study it -- is it accepted and respected as a part of/study within normative Judaism (within any branch of Judaism)?

If so -- I can understand perhaps why some people might argue against studying Kabbalah (and to be sure, I imagine it is nowhere near for everyone to do so... personally, I have a lifetime of study in Judaism, and MJ ahead of me... I dunno that I would ever get into Kabbalah, and I am not 'big' on mysticism of any sort, anyway), but it surely cannot be argued that one is not studying Judaism or even Messianic Judaism, if one includes Kabbalah in his study and discussions here, and Kabbalah is an accepted aspect of normative Judaism. true? I don't understand why someone might say that Kabbalah is somehow foreign to Judaism/Messianic Judaism? New Agey Cabala/Qabala -- of course. But JEWISH Kaballah? :scratch:

Also wanting to ask: may not gentiles study Judaism... become well versed in Judaism... Embrace and practice Judaism? (yes, I have heard the "gentiles can't_________ (fill in the blank -- keep Shabbat, Pesach, etc., but I mean, seriously, is a gentile not capable and free to learn what he will, even if only on his own, or on forum discussions like we find here?) If so -- then can't those gentiles who have learned, are learning, will learn more, answer questions on Judaism and Messianic Judaism if those questions are either within their realm of personal experience (waving to those of you who attend shul and believe in Yeshua) or are topics they have studied, or both?

To me -- the most real Judaism... is JUDAISM and YESHUA. Messianic Judaism. So -- just because I am a non-Jew, does that mean I cannot possibly be studying, learning, gaining any facility and knowledge of, and adhering more and more to Judaism of any sort -- even Messianic Judaism? Is what I learn and practice merely Messianic Gentilism no matter what of Judaism I might believe/learn/practice, and is it a misnomer to call it Messianic Judaism? I do not call myself a Messianic Jew -- and won't. But what I do say is that my family and I are learning Messianic Judaism. And I imagine that the answers I've gotten to my questions here have been sound, solid answers rooted in Judaism and Messianic Judaism, regardless whether they have come from Jews, Messianic Jews (yes, we have had a few here, seems to me), or from well-learned Messianic non-Jews who have embraced/are embracing Judaism.

I hope to become one of those ^ types :) but it can be very disheartening to see someone indicate that people here are following a confusing "brand" of Messianic Judaism and that people here aren't practicing Messianic Judaism unless they, as individuals, are Jewish. :help: So what is "real" in Judaism -- real, accepted paths of study/levels of depth, whatever. And do any and all of those levels of depth/study belong in Messianic Judaism, should one wish to examine them, or do any of them conflict so inherently with belief in Messiah, that it shouldn't be studied or considered? :confused:

Todah and Shalom! :hug:

If this is where Yeshua is leading His fold, who are we to argue. We are called, we answered, we come, we learn, we practise, we believe, we will be sojorourning until the Lord returns. That which we see dimly, will be brought to light in the day of the latter rain, when the baptism of the Holy Spirit will be more that in the early rain of Pentecost. Then we will all see more clearly where Yeshua wants us to be. May we follow Him in all things.

Amen

[simchat_torah]

I would like to ask: what are and are not acceptable things in normative Judaism? (speaking as one who simply doesn't yet know...)

okily dokily... let's see here....

Specifically re: Kabbalah (ancient Jewish, not the Madonna-variety as I understand there to be a difference) -- is Kabbalah respected and studied by many in normative Judaism?
Yes. Most Jewish bookstores have a section dedicated to Kabbalah. Now it really depends on your 'brand' of Judaism...
For example, the Chassidim love to study Kabbalah, and some of the other Orthodox kinda frown upon it. They see it as unnecessary and flaky. Many Jewish bookstores will serve the Jewish community as a whole, and not any particular group, so you'll see X jewish sect over in this section, Y jewish sect over in this section, and Z jewish sect shopping in some other section.

But yes, Kabbalah is a very Jewish thing. If you told a Jew that Kabbalah is now being studied by some messianic sects, they would be appalled. Most would think, "well, there's another thing these goyim pagans have stolen from us!"

Even if few study it -- is it accepted and respected as a part of/study within normative Judaism (within any branch of Judaism)?

First, absolutely yes to your question. Second, I wouldn't say 'few' study it. It is common study among many Orthodox/Chassidic sects. Modern Kabbalah (aka: Qabaluh) is common among various reform groups too... but this is seen as pure **** by the Orthodox and that can't believe the chutzpah the reform have for making such garbage.

Anywho... let's move on....
I don't understand why someone might say that Kabbalah is somehow foreign to Judaism/Messianic Judaism? New Agey Cabala/Qabala -- of course. But JEWISH Kaballah?
These accusations typically come from either christians or ex-christians who grew up hearing rumors of Kabbalah = satanism.
Never from Jewish sources.

Also wanting to ask: may not gentiles study Judaism... become well versed in Judaism... Embrace and practice Judaism?
It is a beautiful thing to see a gentile studying Judaism. But it is an entirely different thing to the Jew when they see a gentile practicing Judaism. They wonder, "where were all these goyim during WW 2? Why weren't all these gentiles jumping up saying they were Jews when Hitler was slaughtering us?" To the Jewish mind, it is a joke... its not real... and it is offensive.
Now it is different when you have a gentile who honestly seeks to convert. But we're not talking about that, we are talking about gentiles who either follow Torah on their own, or worse... replacement type gentiles who say they are Jews. "Why didn't you say you were a Jew during WW 2?" is the typical thought.

As well, to the Jew, they see themselves as the 'special keepers' of the Torah though the ages. They were instructed to protect the Torah, and they have. Without the Jewish people, there would be no Tenach, Torah, or understanding of HaShem. However, what many Jews seem to forget is:
1) The call to evangelism.
2) They keep the torah for a reason... to be a shining light to the nations.

#1 is being revived in a few sects of Judaism today. For example, the Chassidim have many 'revival' type services, calling out the gentiles. #2 is spoken of every shabbat in the Siddur (liturgy) and yet is utterly forgotten on a day to day basis. Granted, the light shines out when Torah is enacted, but the Jewish mind (in large part) has forgotten their light shines for a reason... for others to see it.

To me -- the most real Judaism... is JUDAISM and YESHUA.
Soo.... is a Jew who follows the Torah a fake Jew? Is a Jew who doesn't accept Y'shua 'not real'? What do you mean by this Zemmy?

So -- just because I am a non-Jew, does that mean I cannot possibly be studying, learning, gaining any facility and knowledge of, and adhering more and more to Judaism of any sort -- even Messianic Judaism?
Messianic Judaism, for the better part, makes up its own definition. It is very unique in the way that it chooses to liberally create its own defining theology. You can say, "Lutherans are XY and Z," or "Catholics are AB and C," but you can't say that about Messianics. They seem to choose to have their own evolving definition to fit their fancy.

So, I guess, I can't argue with you when you choose to create a definition. There is no standard for MJ'ism, and I doubt there will be in a real tangible way any time soon.

(does that make sense?)
Is what I learn and practice merely Messianic Gentilism no matter what of Judaism I might believe/learn/practice, and is it a misnomer to call it Messianic Judaism?
Many forms of MJ'ism reflect very closely true Judaism. But I think I see what you're asking. TO a Jew... Messianic Judaism may look like Judaism, but isn't. Many modern scholarly Jews will actually disagree with the main bulk of Judaism on this basis. Many modern scholarly Jews will say that various sects accept a false messiah, and so MJ'ism is no different... and shouldn't be denied its Jewish claim and/or heritage. Its an interesting discussion that is taking place as we speak in the academic world. I have a thread about this very issue here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t36714 (http://www.christianforums.com/t36714)

So what is "real" in Judaism -- real, accepted paths of study/levels of depth, whatever.
This very question is what originally led me away from seeking a Messianic congregation. I didn't want to be 'duped' into some fake flavor. I wanted the legitimate thing. I was sure that there was some messianic thing out there that was legitimate, but I had searched and searched and never found it.... so I turned to Judaism itself. Maybe there is... and maybe there isn't... but I chose the safe route so to speak. If you are going to search for the true Jewish inner core of Messianic Judaism, you are in for a long search. I looked for years, and never found it. But maybe it doesn't matter to you (I mean 'you' as in a general statement, not directed towards Zemmy) if it is purely Judaic... but to me, I didn't want another fake flavor. If it doesn't matter to you (again, a general "you") then by all means, go where you feel comfortable.


And do any and all of those levels of depth/study belong in Messianic Judaism, should one wish to examine them, or do any of them conflict so inherently with belief in Messiah, that it shouldn't be studied or considered?

As your signature so eloquently states (and I'll reword a bit):
There is a difference between the religion about Yeshua and the religion of Yeshua.

Y'shua was a Jew, taught Judaism, worshipped in the synagogue, went to the Temple, etc... By every respect, by following him, you would literally be following Judaism. Basically, by following Judaism, you would also be following Y'shua... if they are truly one in the same.

So, I suppose you have already answered your question by your own signature.

Shalom and shalom Zemmy,
Yafet

[simchat_torah]

TL and Zemmy are both here reading... they must be in seperate rooms in the house. I guess that is what happens when you've been married for so long ;)

[ShirChadash]

Wonderful :clap: -- a lot to chew on there, Yafet... and I want to take the time to do so before I reply much -- but just a quick answer to this portion:
Soo.... is a Jew who follows the Torah a fake Jew? Is a Jew who doesn't accept Y'shua 'not real'? What do you mean by this Zemmy? Absolutely not. My only meaning was that to me, for me -- the full faith, the faith of the whole Word, is Judaism, with belief in Yeshua. I was trying to emphasize the word Judaism there :) because... well I was trying to address the "why are you trying to follow Judaism??!" accusation there. I think you know from my posts like "G-d gave us Judaism" etc., that my personal stand is that Judaism is the Biblical faith HaShem handed down for all those who would be His children to follow... ultimately.

I absolutely believe Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua. I know in my heart of hearts that those who follow Torah follow HaShem, through Yeshua, whether they see it as such at this time or not. I believe that (at least) Jews who follow Torah (and probably all Jews, Torah-observant or not) but do not acknowledge the person of Yeshua at this point, will be given an opportunity to see Him as He truly is, for Who He truly is, as a Jew and a Jewish Messiah -- not as some very strange (I say that as in "stranger" to Jews and Judaism -- please no one misunderstand) gentilized concoction of who and what He is as a dude named "Jesus". And when their eyes are open to Him, and He reveals Himself for Who He truly is, all misconceptions and misrepresentations aside, then they will be given an opportunity to choose. Until then... Yeshua is the Word of G-d and Torah is the Word of G-d, and Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua is Torah... and to me... following Yeshua cannot be separated from following Torah so I must learn and embrace and follow as I am able (failingly... :sigh: ) Torah... I'm utterly compelled from within me.

Is a Jew who doesn't accept Y'shua 'not real'? this part in particular... what occurs to me, and I am about to respond, may sound very harsh to some but

A Jew who follows Torah and doesn't yet know Yeshua as the Living Word
is more real
than a Christian who claims to know Yeshua (okay, "Jesus")
and yet denies, ignores, and hates
His Torah.

There, I said it. It's my opinion.

Thanks Yaf, I'll get back to the rest of the post after I read it through a few more times, and ponder. I just didn't want to leave this part of the post unanswered.

[ShirChadash]

TL and Zemmy are both here reading... they must be in seperate rooms in the house. I guess that is what happens when you've been married for so long ;) Heh heh -- would ya believe it, we have three comps all in one study room, so he pulled it up on his, and I have it on mine, and we are discussing it?? LOL!! SO anyone who reads my above post -- TL agrees with me! He said I could post it! ^_^

[simchat_torah]

lol

[ShirChadash]

See...

[I’m_Lesha]

It is a beautiful thing to see a gentile studying Judaism. But it is an entirely different thing to the Jew when they see a gentile practicing Judaism. They wonder, "where were all these goyim during WW 2? Why weren't all these gentiles jumping up saying they were Jews when Hitler was slaughtering us?" To the Jewish mind, it is a joke... its not real... and it is offensive.
Yafet
That's not fair!!! I wasn't even born yet. Can't they see we are a new generation who wish to serve and protect?:(

Lesha

[ShirChadash]

*nod* I wasn't born yet either... and honestly, because of who I am... never in my life settling for half-truth, half-way... always very black/white... I would love to think that I would have gladly hid Jews. I don't know I would have ever thought to convert, unless I personally came across Jews who embrace Yeshua because I am not sure I would otherwise have realized one can be a Jew and believe on Him, but perhaps even otherwise. I can't know that for sure.

But it seems to me that the understanding that Jews will never be at home anywhere must surely be addressed by anyone seeking to convert, and the times of relative peace seem to be just that... times... of relative peace. Even if *I*, in my own lifetime, were to convert now and never see it threaten my livelihood and life... sooner or later my family would experience it, I imagine, especially if ouor chidlren convert as well. That's no small consideration, IMO. But that doesn't deter me from desiring to follow Torah and to convert someday if I can do so. As "Christians", my DH and I have always discussed with our children the very real possibility that we, as believers, could easily be persecuted... so I can't say the idea daunts me from wanting to be counted among G-d's people... once I am convinced something is the right thing to do, there usually isn't really any dissuading me from it :D .

[ShirChadash]

That's not fair!!! I wasn't even born yet. Can't they see we are a new generation who wish to serve and protect?:(

Lesha
I think, Lesha, that this comment:

They wonder, "where were all these goyim during WW 2? Why weren't all these gentiles jumping up saying they were Jews when Hitler was slaughtering us?"

makes sense as a reaction to gentiles who believe in replacement theology, etc., and religious fads that would seem to draw people toward Judaism -- no?

[I’m_Lesha]

Zemirah said:
so I can't say the idea daunts me from wanting to be counted among G-d's people... once I am convinced something is the right thing to do, there usually isn't really any dissuading me from it :D .
:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

I don't get it!

Don't you know you are already part of God's people? Does it really matter if you are called Jew?

We are all God's people who do His commandments.

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

Ezekiel 20
10 "Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, "which, if a man does, he shall live by them.'
12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.

Hebrews 8
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Matthew 1
21And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Yeshua, for He will save His people from their sins."

Anyone who lives according to God's ways is of God. Isn't it for His people that the Messiah gave His life? Are you not saved from your sins also?

Yes, the Jews were a chosen nation... chosen for generations to show all nations the ways of the Lord, to receive an earthy promised land and to spawn the Messiah through Abraham's seed. That is all.

Yes, they were saved by their faith in keeping the Laws of sacrifice. Biblical Gentiles were heirs too. We are heirs according to the promise too.

Do you know what that promise is? Keep my Laws and through faith you will be saved. Nothing has changed.

I hope I have not stepped on anyones toes, but I write this as an encouragement for you.

Blessing,

Lesha

[ShirChadash]

I don't get it!

Don't you know you are already part of God's people? Does it really matter if you are called Jew?


Oh goodness, yes :) And, no you haven't stepped on my toes :hug:.
The portion you quoted was, in full:

As "Christians", my DH and I have always discussed with our children the very real possibility that we, as believers, could easily be persecuted... so I can't say the idea daunts me from wanting to be counted among G-d's people... once I am convinced something is the right thing to do, there usually isn't really any dissuading me from it
I'm G-d's, make no bones about it ;) . I also know that Jews continue to be G-d's Chosen People no less... no, I don't have to be a Jew... and I certainly do not "need" to be a Jew. I am mainly quite peacefully content as a non-Jew, but I am convinced that G-d's intention and desire is for me to live according to all of His Word that I may -- and I would so very much love it if I could find others who are likeminded, to share and study and worship and pray and follow Torah with -- and now, for me, that means Jews or at least a pretty Jewish MJ congregation where we won't be labelled as "too Jewish" (blowing a kiss to Henny, who has been there done that :kiss: ).

We feel strongly that G-d has indeed called us -- my TorahLover (hubby, that's his name on here), my family, and me, into Judaism... so for me, that's where I need to go and the possibility of persecution isn't likely to daunt me in that, if that makes sense... as I am not one to shrink from the idea of persecution anyway -- even as a "Christian"... and I think those days are coming along, as I know fully well that Christians all over the world are being persecuted and murdered for their faith.

[I’m_Lesha]

Oops, I guess I took that a little out of context. :doh:

Sorry,:sigh:

Lesha

[ShirChadash]

S'not a problem, Lesha! :cool:

[Nilahk]

What would a gentile who married a genetically Jewish guy (who later discovered MJ and began to follow Torah)... took the vow of Ruth at their Messianic Jewish wedding... and are raising their kids in the Messianic comunity... observing Torah, etc. be called according to you guys???

-NK

[Henaynei]

What would a gentile who married a genetically Jewish guy (who later discovered MJ and began to follow Torah)... took the vow of Ruth at their Messianic Jewish wedding... and are raising their kids in the Messianic comunity... observing Torah, etc. be called according to you guys???

-NKI am she - and I am a Messianic Gerah Toshav (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8263284&postcount=18)- a "stranger" (that is a non-Jew) who choses to live in and with the Messianic and Jewish community (for the last 17 years). It is up to HaShem when, even if, I am even able to make a conversion. Until He so provides, I remain a ger/gentile/non-Jew, as I have not converted and was not born of a Jewish mother. My heart can be one with the Jewish people, and is, but no, I am not a Jew, yet.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Higher Truth]

Zemmy:



In light of recent comments I've read on here, regarding the "brand" of MJ theologies on this forum... and the digs against gentiles following Messianic JUDAISM that sometimes come up... I would like to ask: what are and are not acceptable things in normative Judaism?



HT:



I guess it would depend on who you ask. It appears that you are referencing some of my earlier statements from another thread. I was specifically referring to the mixing of various doctrines and kabbalah and calling it MJ.



Zemmy:



Specifically re: Kabbalah (ancient Jewish, not the Madonna-variety as I understand there to be a difference



HT:



In my opinion it all comes with the same desire, which is to have the power of gaining secret knowledge that others do not have. It is all mysticism, and it is forbidden in the Torah. Now we have the Christians chasing after it compliments of Grant Jeffries and Benny Hinn, TBN, and the “bible codes”……..oh boy



Zemmy:



I don't understand why someone might say that Kabbalah is somehow foreign to Judaism/Messianic Judaism? New Agey Cabala/Qabala -- of course. But JEWISH Kaballah?





HT:



For years the Chassidim have explained away the Messianic prophecies found in the TeNaKh. They have assigned them to Israel and David, and now have no way through scripture to identify the one who they believe to be Mashiach when he arrives. Because of this they will use kabbalah in this process. Problem being, that He has already come, and has already been identified. Messing with kabbalah is playing with fire, in my opinion.

In case some of you are not aware, some of the Messianic prophecies found in the newest JPS and other books have been "re-translated" to change the meaning of various passages used to show that Yeshua, is in fact , Mashiach. Compare the Messianic prophecies as they are found in the 1917 version and the latest version. :confused: :cry:

[simchat_torah]

In my opinion it all comes with the same desire, which is to have the power of gaining secret knowledge that others do not have.
This is not Jewish Kabbalah. Kabbalah is made for the simple mind so that the average person can comprehend the grandeur of HaShem's infinite being. Jewish spirituality is made for the everyday man and not just the Rabbi via Chassidim.

For years the Chassidim have explained away the Messianic prophecies found in the TeNaKh. They have assigned them to Israel and David, and now have no way through scripture to identify the one who they believe to be Mashiach when he arrives. Because of this they will use kabbalah in this process.
Kabbalah is never used to disprove the messiah. Rabbinical sources are used, not kabbalah, specifically rabibnical sources discussing the role of Moshiach ben dovid. Never once has Kabbalah been used to disprove Y'shua as the messiah... this is a cop out and you know it.

ignorance abounds.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Kabbalah is never used to disprove the messiah.

HT:

Maybe you had better re-read my statement.

"They have assigned them to Israel and David, and now have no way through scripture to identify the one who they believe to be Mashiach when he arrives. Because of this they will use kabbalah in this process."

I stated that they will USE kabbalah to identify who their Mashiach is.

Simchat:

ignorance abounds.

HT:

Why is that, because I do not agree with you? You sometimes do not agree with yourself from month to month. Shall we use your above statement in that application as well?

[simchat_torah]

I stated that they will USE kabbalah to identify who their Mashiach is.
Ignorance abounds yet again.

Kabbalah will not be used to determine who the Messiah is. Kabbalah is used merely to understand the nature of G-d.

Why is that, because I do not agree with you?
No, because you present nothing that resembles Judaism, all the while shouting "here is what Judaism is". You know nothing of Judaism, why do you speak as though you're an authority?

[simchat_torah]

Maybe you had better re-read my statement.
By stating: "They have assigned them to Israel and David, and now have no way through scripture to identify the one who they believe to be Mashiach when he arrives. Because of this they will use kabbalah in this process."
You are inherrently stating that they do not believe Y'shua is HaMoshiach. You know this, I know this, why are you trying to trick others here into believing that this isn't what you're saying?

[iitb]

I will only say this once:

It is perfectly fine to disagree, but referring to others as "ignorant" is considered flaming, and will stop immediately.

Justin
Senior Moderator

[simchat_torah]

ig·no·rance http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dignorance) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifghttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifns)
n.

The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
I will not use the term ignorant again if it suits the moderators ;)

But can I use uneducated, or uninformed?

[simchat_torah]

oh, and btw, my statement regarding ignorance had nothing to do with agreement or disagreement...

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Kabbalah will not be used to determine who the Messiah is. Kabbalah is used merely to understand the nature of G-d.

HT:

All Jews know that God will be sending Messiah. Are you then saying that Messiah is not in the nature of God?

Simchat:

No, because you present nothing that resembles Judaism, all the while shouting "here is what Judaism is". You know nothing of Judaism, why do you speak as though you're an authority?

HT:

I believe that it was you that was raised in the Charismatic "church", and that it is your father that is a charismatic pastor. You appear to have your facts confused.

Simchat:

You are inherrently stating that they do not believe Y'shua is HaMoshiach. You know this, I know this, why are you trying to trick others here into believing that this isn't what you're saying?

HT:

Thirteen million Jews worldwide. Fifty to one hundred thousand are believers. Your call.

[simchat_torah]

I believe that it was you that was raised in the Charismatic "church", and that it is your father that is a charismatic pastor. You appear to have your facts confused.
No on both accounts. I attended a charasmatic church in high school, but was not raised in one. My father never has been a pastor, and I doubt he ever will be.

but thanks for your attempt at a personal jab. I'm sorry it failed though.


hmmm... try again?

[simchat_torah]

You are inherrently stating that they do not believe Y'shua is HaMoshiach. You know this, I know this, why are you trying to trick others here into believing that this isn't what you're saying?

HT:

Thirteen million Jews worldwide. Fifty to one hundred thousand are believers. Your call.
Yes, but you indicated their proof is found in Kabbalah.... this has never been used as proof.

Are you now moving from "kabbalah is evil" to "13 million jews are evil"?

[simchat_torah]

All Jews know that God will be sending Messiah. Are you then saying that Messiah is not in the nature of God?
Yes, but Kabbalah will not be a determining factor in deciding who the messiah is/was. The Rabbis will/have decided that, not Kabbalah.

again, you know this and are desperately trying to paint kabbalah as evil... yet again.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

No on both accounts.


HT:

That is what you stated on this forum last year. There it is. Changed you mind again. :)

[simchat_torah]

That is what you stated on this forum last year. There it is. Changed you mind again
You are very confused or lying... I can't pick which.

I stated my grandfather is/was a pastor (never my dad), but is now retired. And no, he was not charasmatic either. I did attend a charasmatic church during high school...

[iitb]

Can we please discuss the topic at hand? What does Yafet's family have to do with any of this?

[simchat_torah]

fyi... my grandpa was a Methodist pastor for many small country churches in central illinois.

now you know.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Are you now moving from "kabbalah is evil" to "13 million jews are evil"?

HT:

Trying to build a straw man are we? God is not finished with His people. I will trust that He will take care of the details. They are not mine to worry about.

[simchat_torah]

Can we please discuss the topic at hand? What does Yafet's family have to do with any of this?I really don't know...

just anything to make a personal jab i guess

[simchat_torah]

Trying to build a straw man are we? God is not finished with His people. I will trust that He will take care of the details. They are not mine to worry about.
You say Kabbalah is evil because it rejects the messiah.
Then you turn around and say it is the 13 million Jews who reject the messiah, and not kabbalah (thus recanting what you previously stated).

I'm adding 1 + 1 to get at... if Kabbalah was evil because it rejected the messiah (which, btw, it doesn't) and now you say its the 13 million Jews who reject the messiah.... under your math, doesn't that make them evil?

So... no, there isn't a strawman. I'm using your own proofs to come to these conclusions..

Maybe your proofs need revisiting?

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

You say Kabbalah is evil because it rejects the messiah.
Then you turn around and say it is the 13 million Jews who reject the messiah, and not kabbalah (thus recanting what you previously stated).

I'm adding 1 + 1 to get at... if Kabbalah was evil because it rejected the messiah (which, btw, it doesn't) and now you say its the 13 million Jews who reject the messiah.... under your math, doesn't that make them evil?

So... no, there isn't a strawman. I'm using your own proofs to come to these conclusions..

Maybe your proofs need revisiting?

HT:

Let me type more slowly. Chassidim rejects Yeshua as Messiah. They will use kabbalah to define who their Messiah is. Thirteen million Jews are God's property, and He is not finished with His people. His call who will be saved in the end, not mine. Please re read my above statements.

[simchat_torah]

Let me reply slowlyThey will use kabbalah to define who their Messiah is.
No, they don't use Kabbalah to determine the messiah... no they won't use kabbalah to determine the messiah....

The above quote is: a condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

No, they don't use Kabbalah to determine the messiah... no they won't use kabbalah to determine the messiah....

The above quote is: a condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

HT:

I would suggest that you spend some time in a Chassidic community. Remember Rebbe Schneerson? Through kabbalah that HE taught, his followers determined that he was Mashiach, and some are still awaiting his return. Please do you research.

[simchat_torah]

I have many Chassidic friends, and intimately know two chassidic rabbis.

Kabbalah was not used to determine that Schneerson was the Messiah.


While Schneerson did teach Kabbalistic principles:
1) Kabbalah was not used to determine whether he was the Moshiach.
2) Schneerson also taught principles such as "HaShem Echad", etc... do we then also throw these judaic principles out the window?
3) Schneerson never claimed to be the Messiah
and let me repeat #1 since it is the crutch of your argument:
Kabbalah was not used to determine whether he was the Moshiach.

fyi... i have done my research.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

1) Kabbalah was not used to determine whether he was the Rabbi.

HT:

You are correct. He was already holding the position of Rebbe. Kabbalistic interpretation was used to determine that he was Mashiach.

[simchat_torah]

Kabbalistic interpretation was used to determine that he was Mashiach.
Either you are uninformed, or you are manipulating the community here... i'm still trying to figure that one out.

It was Rabbinical commentary that led others to believe he was the messiah, not Kabbalah.

Kabbalah has never been used to determine who the messiah will be, nor will it ever.

[simchat_torah]

Edited #1 due to typo:
"1) Kabbalah was not used to determine whether he was the Moshiach"

now you know.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Either you are uninformed, or you are manipulating the community here...

HT:

Maybe you should contact the Jewish virtual library in Israel and tell them that they are manipulating the community as well:

Lurianic Kabbalah refers often to Messianism and many say that his Messianic ideas paved the way for the false Messiah, Shabbetai Zvi (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Zvi.html).

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Luria.html

Once again, please do your research.

[simchat_torah]

Shabbetai Zvi is the false Messiah you speak of, and according to the same article you link us to:
For long periods, he was a respected student and teacher of Kabbalah (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/kabbalah.html); at other times, he was given to messianic fantasies and bizarre actsAs you can see, these are diametrically opposed. Kabbalah and his false messiahship were not one in the same, but were opposed to each other.

Nice try... but I did do my research.

[simchat_torah]

Here is the underlying problem Higher Truth...

I have explicitly explained this in other threads, but you seem to ignore this carefully laid construction: Kabbalah (or any other text/foundation) can not be judged by what its adherents practice or believe, but rather must be judged explicitly on the standards and merits contained within the Kabbalah (or any other text/foundation).

For example, you can't judge the bible by its practioners, nor can you judge Kabbalah in the same way. You can't look at a group of Mormons and say the bible is bunk, nor can you look at an exotic sect of Kabbalists and state that Kabbalah is bunk.

One must explicitly show the text is fundamentally wrong rather than judging the works of those who follow it. I can't say the New Testament is garbage simply because there were people during the crusades who used the texts of the New Testament to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Jews. Nor can you say that Kabbalah is bunk because you may find slivers or pockets of people who abuse its texts in the same way.

This certainly can not be used as an argument, yet you so desperately attempt to do so time and time again. No matter how many times I point this out, you return to the same false methods.

[Higher Truth]

Here is the underlying problem Simchat Torah...

You are not really settled in your beliefs, but you insist on taking the position of teacher. You are a "former" Christian, who now abhors Christianity and the Name of Jesus. Last year you argued with me about the Hebrew/Aramaic NT and the HRV, and defended it and it's "translator" with zeal. Now you are luke warm about both.Then you were on here promoting a "rabbi" who showed up on the forum, and now you admit, that your judgement may have been in error. If I reviewed our many other conversations, I am sure I could come up with more situations with the same outcome, but it is really not necessary. In the book of James we are told:

James 3

1 My brothers do not be many teachers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

We are also told:

8 A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.


Kabbalah is mysticism Simchat, pure and simple. God tells us that His secrets are His, and that He has told us all that we need to know. Yeshua told us that He has spoken openly. The scriptures say it all. Some kabbalists believe that if they can find out the full seventy two letter Name of God, that they will have power. You are playing wih fire, but worse yet, you are encouraging others to do the same. I have spoken the truth, so this is on your hands.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

"No, they don't use Kabbalah to determine the messiah... no they won't use kabbalah to determine the messiah....

The above quote is: a condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed."

HT:

Would you care to discuss the greater/lesser YHWH theories that many kabbalists promote? [metatron]

Since you like to reference extra-biblical mystical writings [isn't the zohar one of the kabbalistic writings?], here are a few you may want to consider:

Zohar, Shemot Section 2. p. 126 a

Zohar Amsterdam Edition p. 114 Col 1

It might also benefit you to contact your friends Avi ben Mordechai or James Trimm to get their opinion on your statement.

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

You are very confused or lying... I can't pick which.

I stated my grandfather is/was a pastor (never my dad), but is now retired. And no, he was not charasmatic either. I did attend a charasmatic church during high school...

HT:

I stand corrected Simchat. You never said that your dad was a pastor, you said he was a Christian and that your grandfathers were both pastors:

"My grandparents on my mother's side left Poland during WWII and upon coming to the US found just as much antisemtism. So they converted to Christianity. My father's side is somewhat of a similar story but it goes back a few generations farther.

Both of my grandfathers became pastors. Needless to say I was brought up with a christian upbringing."

On this earlier thread, you stated this which was part of my misunderstanding:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1490437#post1490437

"I am more than familiar with Rick Joyner. Before I started entering the Torah covnenant, I was a strong charasmatic christian. I had attended a school for the 'prophetic' and was even going to go to Rick Joyner's school in the Carolinas. Rick Joyner is a great teacher, but as far as prophecy goes... it tends to be very general and vague. His prophecies are rather 'insightful' into the state of things, but anyone with sensitive eyes could pick up on them."

and this:

http://www.christianforums.com/t60519&page=1

"My father, a christian, invited me to go hear "Jews for Jesus" at his church in hopes of bringing me back to 'christ'. He does not see my Torah based lifestyle as serving the Messiah, but as heretical. Knowing that this fellow from "Jews for Jesus" actually promotes Anti-Torah, he thought I might be excited to come and here a 'jew' speak... lol, little did he know."

from an earlier thread:

"My grandparents on my mother's side left Poland during WWII and upon coming to the US found just as much antisemtism. So they converted to Christianity. My father's side is somewhat of a similar story but it goes back a few generations farther.

Both of my grandfathers became pastors. Needless to say I was brought up with a christian upbringing.

About 7 years ago I began studying things in christian doctrine and history that didn't add up (starting with christmas) as well I had a new found excitement in discovering my Jewish lineage.

Since then I have traveled quite far down the path. I have attended a Jewish synagouge for the past 2.5 years, and have taken multiple classes at a Yeshiva online.

Talmud HaYorak makes me very jealous (bad fleshly nature, down boy) because he may be going to Hebrew U. That is somewhere that I seriously contemplated going to. Unfortunately, HaShem had other plans for me as I've now been married very happily to a gorgeos Tzaddik woman.... Anastasia. She too has a similar story with her lineage.

After leaving christianity some years ago I attempted to go the 'messianic' route. However, what I discovered is that most messianic congregations are: church in a kippah a little phrase I've coined and seems to have caught on. Anyway, most messy-anic congregations don't observe Torah, hold to varying forms of replacement theology, and primarily haven't given up the same pagan doctrines and practices of chrstiandom. There are a few that stand out from the crowd that differ from this norm, but it's very rare.

I've been attending a Conservative synagouge for quite some time, although my heart really lies within the Chassidic or Orthodox.... unfortunately, there's nothing in that realm anywhere near here. So you make do with what you have, nu?

I'll wait for some responses before boring you any more... he he he..

Shalom,
Yafet/Japheth."

then you stated this:

http://www.christianforums.com/t707036&page=1

"And yes... to answer your question, I have Jewish lineage. Two grandparents, but unfortunately, not through mother -->grandmother-->great grandmother---> etc. through the female lineage. Thus, halachically, since I was not raised in an observant home, but a secular home, I am not considered Jewish by the Orthodox. However, according to the reform, I do not need to convert.

To be recognized for Aliyah, I am currently going through an Orthodox conversion. At the moment, that is on hold until I decide how to handle the 'reject jesus' when I stand before the Beit Din at the end of the year (among a few other issues).

-Yafet"


HT:

In the above post, you stated that you were raised in a secular home, not a Christian one, so I guess that may have added to my confusion. Sorry for the incorrect statement about your dad being a pastor.

[Sephania]

HT, there seems to be a vendetta like flavor to your postings to Yafet, and I have to wonder why? You never seem to want to tell anyone about yourself, yet you are here cutting and pasting from other threads that maybe years or many months old to base your assertions about him on. I dare say that I am not the same as I was a year ago, HaShem seems to have picked up his work in me and I am "evolving" at an ever faster rate. I would dare to say that this might be the same for Yafet? The RUACH is moving mightly amoung those that are listening and willing to be obedient. Sometimes a messenger from HaSatan may get in our way but we trust the L-RD to show us all truth.

WhaT is your point here anyway? What are you trying to prove and will it satisfy you?

[simchat_torah]

If you can't beat them in a spiritual discussion, then try every attempt at personal attacks....

right HT?


At least that seems to be your strategy so far.

====================================================
A moment of clarity for confusion concerning my personal life: Yes, one of my grandfathers was ordained, the other was not but was a co-pastor. Thus, sometimes, depending on the conversation, I may refer to one or two of my grandfathers being a pastor. Some people don't recognize a pastor if he has not been ordained, others do... so I try to match what company I am with.

My father is a chistian but molests children, is abusive to his family verbally and emotionally, among many other things. Though he attends church, I doubt you could really say he 'lives as a christian'. My mother really isn't a christian by most standards. So, once again, I was partially raised in a christian home and partially in a secular home. While there was some Judaic influences on my upbringing, it certainly wasn't anything to chalk up as a Jewish heritage per se.
====================================================



If you want more details, feel free to ask. I am not one to hide who I am. But must we attempt such personal delvings into one another's life? The great thing about the internet is that you don't HAVE to flesh out all of the details of your life.

While you brought this up in an attempt to question my 'educational' level concerning Judaism, you have only brought shame to yourself in the eyes of those who read this thread. You want to know about my education in Judaism? I have attended classes from three Yeshivot. Two of them were messianic, one was Conservative. I also have a degree from a secular university in philosophy, specifically focusing on ancient religions. As well, you can see that I attended a revival school... and just for your own knowledge, I have also attended missions training and discipleship courses for a year.

Now, is there anything else I can tell you about my personal life that you'd like to know? I'd rather fully embelish my life rather than you attempting to exploit it and attempt to degrade my character. To be honest, it would only help you in the long run to let me speak for myself rather than you trying to do this because you only end up lowering the view others have of you by doing so.

You can do as you wish, but this is the advice I give you. Take it or leave it.

shalom,
yafet

[iitb]

This thread has degenerated into a bunch of personal attacks, so I'm closing it. I may clean it up and reopen it later, but I'm not making any promises. ;)

Justin
Senior Moderator