Quick question

[HalcyonFire]

I'm looking at a site and there's an article comparing mainstream Christianity to Messianic... there's this statement: Most Messianics are much more "zealous for the Law (Torah)" than their Gentile Christian counterparts. In this, they are following the example of the first century Messianic Jew, who were also "zealous for Torah" (Acts 15:19-21 and 21:17-27).
I get how this idea applies to Acts 21:17-27... but is this person reading the same version of Acts 15:19-21 as me? Maybe I'm missing something (which is why I'm asking).

(19Therefore it is my opinion that we should not put obstacles in the way of and annoy and disturb those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

20But we should send word to them in writing to abstain from and avoid anything that has been polluted by being offered to idols, and all sexual impurity, and [eating meat of animals] that have been strangled, and [tasting of] blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had his preachers in every town, for he is read [aloud] every Sabbath in the synagogues.)

[Wags]

Ats 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

The question before the council was do you have to observe Torah before you can be saved, and the answer was gentiles needed to do 4 things (which most Christians don't do now anyway) but then there is verse 21 that says because Moses (i.e. Torah) is taught every Shabbat. Many Messianics interpret that to mean that the council expected folks to be in the Synagogue every Shabbat learning Torah.

Those four things would have allowed the gentile converts to have contact with their Jewish counterparts - to be able to eat in their homes and fellowship.

[HalcyonFire]

The question before the council was do you have to observe Torah before you can be saved, and the answer was gentiles needed to do 4 things (which most Christians don't do now anyway) but then there is verse 21 that says because Moses (i.e. Torah) is taught every Shabbat. Many Messianics interpret that to mean that the council expected folks to be in the Synagogue every Shabbat learning Torah.

Those four things would have allowed the gentile converts to have contact with their Jewish counterparts - to be able to eat in their homes and fellowship.



?? do four things to be saved?? (splain please :))

thanks for responding BTW

[Wags]

Sorry - there really isn't a good short answer.

[HalcyonFire]

Sorry - there really isn't a good short answer.
HA. I find that's generally the case when you ask someone to explain not how the scripture is taken now, but what it meant then. LOL.

Hugs. It's all good.

[HalcyonFire]

this was not posted yesterday (i see they have not fixed this problem yet)

[HalcyonFire]

The question before the council was do you have to observe Torah before you can be saved, and the answer was gentiles needed to do 4 things (which most Christians don't do now anyway) but then there is verse 21 that says because Moses (i.e. Torah) is taught every Shabbat. Many Messianics interpret that to mean that the council expected folks to be in the Synagogue every Shabbat learning Torah.

Those four things would have allowed the gentile converts to have contact with their Jewish counterparts - to be able to eat in their homes and fellowship.



?? do four things to be saved?? (splain please :))

thanks for responding BTW

[Wags]

I was trying to distill a much longer dissertation into something short and sweet - looks like I didn't succeed. :)

I'll try again for a summary:

The question at hand was "how can a gentile become a covenant member of Israel and share in the covenant blessings?"

Those four prohibitions were fences against idol worship - a way for the gentiles to show that they had indeed forsaken participation pagan idolatry. Some of those prohibitions are not directly found in Torah, but are "customs of the Fathers".

They weren't expecting gentiles to take on all of the "customs of the fathers" (i.e. Oral Torah) just those 4 things, and the rest of Torah would be learned weekly in the Synagogue. Most didn't have their own copies of Torah - so hearing it read weekly would have been about the only way they had of learning it.


For a more indepth discussion you might find this article helpful: Acts 15 and the Jerusalem Council. (http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts%2015.pdf)

[HalcyonFire]

I was trying to distill a much longer dissertation into something short and sweet - looks like I didn't succeed. :)

I'll try again for a summary:

The question at hand was "how can a gentile become a covenant member of Israel and share in the covenant blessings?"

Those four prohibitions were fences against idol worship - a way for the gentiles to show that they had indeed forsaken participation pagan idolatry. Some of those prohibitions are not directly found in Torah, but are "customs of the Fathers".

They weren't expecting gentiles to take on all of the "customs of the fathers" (i.e. Oral Torah) just those 4 things, and the rest of Torah would be learned weekly in the Synagogue. Most didn't have their own copies of Torah - so hearing it read weekly would have been about the only way they had of learning it.


For a more indepth discussion you might find this article helpful: Acts 15 and the Jerusalem Council. (http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts%2015.pdf)
hehehe

i still don't get what you're saying but I'll read the article. :)

[HalcyonFire]

Sorry - there really isn't a good short answer.
HA. I find that's generally the case when you ask someone to explain not how the scripture is taken now, but what it meant then. LOL.

Hugs. It's all good.

[Kris10leigh]

Does anyone know what those four things were?

[Henaynei]

Does anyone know what those four things were?perhaps something can be gained by reading the whole passage :)

Acts 15
16 '"After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it, 17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name," 18 says AD-NAI, who is doing these things.' All this has been known for ages. 19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to G-d.

20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

[Kris10leigh]

perhaps something can be gained by reading the whole passage :)

Acts 15
16 '"After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it, 17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name," 18 says AD-NAI, who is doing these things.' All this has been known for ages. 19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to G-d.

20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

Thank you! I think this is interesting and worthy of further discussion if I may be so humored. :thumbsup:

Is this Paul that's speaking? (Sorry...I'm actually suffering from a blood clot in my leg and I'm on crutches because of it. Spent 11 hours in the ER :doh: . Nothing serious, just lots of swelling, taking aspirin...but my Bible's across the room...:o )


The four things:
polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

1.Abstain from things poluted by idols- This to me means all idols made in the likeness of any god including our God.
2.Abstain from fornication- Surely this means outside of marriage, promiscuity.
3. Abstain from strangled [animals ?]- Telling us not to eat meat of strangled animals, which I would take to mean today not to eat the meat of animals inhumanely put to death? I would hope no farmers out there are literaly strangling the animals to death.
4. blood ? :scratch: Murder? I'm not sure what this one means.

[Wags]

Since your bible is across the room - check this out:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/

It will allow you to search by text, or by key word in a variety of translations.

In this case it is James speaking before the Jerusalem council. If you have the time and energy - try reading the article I linked to.

[visionary]

Thank you! I think this is interesting and worthy of further discussion if I may be so humored. :thumbsup:

Is this Paul that's speaking? (Sorry...I'm actually suffering from a blood clot in my leg and I'm on crutches because of it. Spent 11 hours in the ER :doh: . Nothing serious, just lots of swelling, taking aspirin...but my Bible's across the room...:o )


The four things:
polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

1.Abstain from things poluted by idols- This to me means all idols made in the likeness of any god including our God.
2.Abstain from fornication- Surely this means outside of marriage, promiscuity.
3. Abstain from strangled [animals ?]- Telling us not to eat meat of strangled animals, which I would take to mean today not to eat the meat of animals inhumanely put to death? I would hope no farmers out there are literaly strangling the animals to death.
4. blood ? :scratch: Murder? I'm not sure what this one means.You are not doing too bad there...actually pretty good until the forth.. when you got fuzzy.

Hope this helps.. Jews are trying to teach new believers (gentiles) their faith...

1 Corinthians 3:2
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The gentiles did not have the foundation of the Torah as Israel did so the teachings would be like strong meat and they unable to digest it being new to the faith and like babe's.

There is the other side of the coin, the gentiles as pagan's practiced a whole bunch of things that were abominations in the eyes of the jews, so there had to be some starter rules for the gentiles to obey in order to behave in a acceptable manner in the synagogue. It is hard to fellowship at the same table if the food on the table causes consternations.

One important concept is that "the life is in the blood"... therefore all meat must be drained of its blood in a manner that both parties can eat.

[Wags]

Hey - bonus if you figure out where James was quoting from when he speaks of the prophets saying that David's fallen tent will be restored. :)

[Lulav]

Thank you! I think this is interesting and worthy of further discussion if I may be so humored.

Is this Paul that's speaking? (Sorry...I'm actually suffering from a blood clot in my leg and I'm on crutches because of it. Spent 11 hours in the ER :doh: . Nothing serious, just lots of swelling, taking aspirin...but my Bible's across the room...:o )


The four things:
polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

1.Abstain from things poluted by idols- This to me means all idols made in the likeness of any god including our God.
2.Abstain from fornication- Surely this means outside of marriage, promiscuity.
3. Abstain from strangled [animals ?]- Telling us not to eat meat of strangled animals, which I would take to mean today not to eat the meat of animals inhumanely put to death? I would hope no farmers out there are literaly strangling the animals to death.
4. blood ? :scratch: Murder? I'm not sure what this one means.Kristi! :hug: I am sorry to hear of this, I hope that they can do something, a clot can be dangerous, please be careful I shall keep you in prayers!:prayer:

[Lulav]

The four things:
polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.

1.Abstain from things poluted by idols- This to me means all idols made in the likeness of any god including our God.
2.Abstain from fornication- Surely this means outside of marriage, promiscuity.
3. Abstain from strangled [animals ?]- Telling us not to eat meat of strangled animals, which I would take to mean today not to eat the meat of animals inhumanely put to death? I would hope no farmers out there are literaly strangling the animals to death.
4. blood ? :scratch: Murder? I'm not sure what this one means.

Kristi, try reading this (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/acts15.html)
it is short and to the point of your questions, I include some other things in that umbrella of 4 but this is a good place to start. Only one short page.
(http://www.lightofmashiach.org/acts15.html)

[Kris10leigh]

Kristi! :hug: I am sorry to hear of this, I hope that they can do something, a clot can be dangerous, please be careful I shall keep you in prayers!:prayer:
Thanks Lulav! For the first time in a week, I walked without crutches all the way from my bedroom to the office this morning! :D (Not that far) But that's progress! I may be able to shower without standing on one foot! It's finally getting a little better every day instead of progressively worse.

[Kris10leigh]

Kristi, try reading this (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/acts15.html)
it is short and to the point of your questions, I include some other things in that umbrella of 4 but this is a good place to start. Only one short page.


I like most that this article says that though those four rules were given for the gentile believer, it was kind of like a starting point as believers were expected to attend synagogue and learn about Torah along the way. That makes sense to me. Also, James was a man himself and was giving this advice after the death of Jesus, so it is not coming from the teachings of Jesus Himself. (This of course brings up the issue of the Bible being divinely inspired which I don't intend.)

[Henaynei]

Hey - bonus if you figure out where James was quoting from when he speaks of the prophets saying that David's fallen tent will be restored. :)Amos 9
7 "People of Isra'el, are you any different from the Ethiopians to me?" asks AD-NAI. "True, I brought Isra'el up from Egypt, but I also brought the P'lishtim from Kaftor, and Aram from Kir. 8 Look, the eyes of Adonai EL-HIM are on the sinful kingdom. I will wipe it off the face of the earth, yet I will not completely destroy the house of Ya'akov," says AD-NAI. 9 "For when I give the order, I will shake the house of Isra'el, there among all the Goyim, as one shakes with a sieve, letting no grain fall to the ground. 10 All the sinners among my people who say, 'Disaster will never overtake us or confront us,' will die by the sword.
11 "When that day comes, I will raise up the fallen sukkah of David. I will close up its gaps, raise up its ruins and rebuild it as it used to be, 12 so that Isra'el can possess what is left of Edom and of all the nations bearing my name," says AD-NAI, who is doing this.

[A_Pioneer]

I did read one thing in the replies that creates a false impression with me. These four things have nothing to do with salvation. The Gentiles being spoken to and about have already expressed faith in the messiah Yeshua and there-by saved. These four things are to make then able to meet and fellowship with Jewish believers.

Salvation is and always will be by faith.

This is for anyone who might get the impression that these four things are tied to salvation.

Shalom

[Henaynei]

I did read one thing in the replies that creates a false impression with me. These four things have nothing to do with salvation. The Gentiles being spoken to and about have already expressed faith in the messiah Yeshua and there-by saved. These four things are to make then able to meet and fellowship with Jewish believers.

Salvation is and always will be by faith.

This is for anyone who might get the impression that these four things are tied to salvation.

Shalomgood catch :)

thus Gentiles who follow Messiah are not obligated to keep these 4 laws, but like the 10 Commandments it would be proof of the fruit of the Ruakh in their lives if they did....

also, they should not be surprised when Jewish folk, believers or non-believers, are not snapping up invitations to dinner if they don't keep these and learn how to incorporate various bare necessity others ;) For these were the barest minimum to facilitate common fellowship, but it did not make for shared foods ;)

[Wags]

Yeah I miss spoke - I should never try to answer questions after taking cold medication!

[Henaynei]

Yeah I miss spoke - I should never try to answer questions after taking cold medication!L:tutu: L

[HalcyonFire]

I did read one thing in the replies that creates a false impression with me. These four things have nothing to do with salvation. The Gentiles being spoken to and about have already expressed faith in the messiah Yeshua and there-by saved. These four things are to make then able to meet and fellowship with Jewish believers.

Salvation is and always will be by faith.

This is for anyone who might get the impression that these four things are tied to salvation.

Shalom
this was going to be my comment and the reason i asked the question initially regarding the 4 things and salvation (all things are lawful comes to mind, though balanced with all things are not profitable)

my question is, if a gentile does not know the ways, and is never taught this is the "fruit" they are to show, how are they possibly to be held to this standard? KWIM? fruit seems like something that would be more... heart oriented to me, but this is just thinking out loud.

[Wags]

A new believer isn't expected to know everything at once, but they are expected to continue to grow and learn just as a baby eventually moves from nursing to eating solid foods.

[HalcyonFire]

A new believer isn't expected to know everything at once, but they are expected to continue to grow and learn just as a baby eventually moves from nursing to eating solid foods.
but that would require bible knowledge in your opinion then right?

no one without access can grow in Christ?

[Kris10leigh]

this was going to be my comment and the reason i asked the question initially regarding the 4 things and salvation (all things are lawful comes to mind, though balanced with all things are not profitable)

my question is, if a gentile does not know the ways, and is never taught this is the "fruit" they are to show, how are they possibly to be held to this standard? KWIM? fruit seems like something that would be more... heart oriented to me, but this is just thinking out loud.

Wags' answer, I think, is right for those who have tasted the fruit, to stick with the anaology. In my opinion, those who are NEVER taught, are then not at fault. But once a person has stumbled upon the truth he/she is expected to grow and be nurtured in that truth.

I doubt everyone agrees with me on this, but I truly feel that God is patient and understanding with His people and that includes all the various denominations that try their best to follow His will. I think God knows what is in our hearts and I trust Him to lead ALL of His followers. But once God leads someone down this particular path, I think then the person is responsible for learning.

[HalcyonFire]

Wags' answer, I think, is right for those who have tasted the fruit, to stick with the anaology. In my opinion, those who are NEVER taught, are then not at fault. But once a person has stumbled upon the truth he/she is expected to grow and be nurtured in that truth.

I doubt everyone agrees with me on this, but I truly feel that God is patient and understanding with His people and that includes all the various denominations that try their best to follow His will. I think God knows what is in our hearts and I trust Him to lead ALL of His followers. But once God leads someone down this particular path, I think then the person is responsible for learning.
me too. He meets us where we are (i.e. denom, etc.) and takes us where He wants is in Him (not so much where man wants us in doctrine).

[SGM4HIM]

This text seems to suggest Gentiles can not plead ignorance to not knowing God's ways

Romans 2:14-15

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

[HalcyonFire]

This text seems to suggest Gentiles can not plead ignorance to not knowing God's ways

Romans 2:14-15

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
IDK. It appears more to me that they in their ignorance show the works of the law from their hearts and not from their knowledge.

[A_Pioneer]

Wags' answer, I think, is right for those who have tasted the fruit, to stick with the anaology. In my opinion, those who are NEVER taught, are then not at fault. But once a person has stumbled upon the truth he/she is expected to grow and be nurtured in that truth.

I doubt everyone agrees with me on this, but I truly feel that God is patient and understanding with His people and that includes all the various denominations that try their best to follow His will. I think God knows what is in our hearts and I trust Him to lead ALL of His followers. But once God leads someone down this particular path, I think then the person is responsible for learning.
Yes, exactly! This was just past the instructions to obey the four things as to be able to comgregate with other believers Jewish and Gentile is this statement added Acts 15:21 "For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synogogues."
How else should they say it, "You believe in Yeshua, you have recieved the Holy Spirit, all you need to do now is learn what is necessary to enter the kingdom. Now go to the Synogogue every Sabbath and learn Torah."

Shalom

[HalcyonFire]

Yes, exactly! This was just past the instructions to obey the four things as to be able to comgregate with other believers Jewish and Gentile is this statement added Acts 15:21 "For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synogogues."
How else should they say it, "You believe in Yeshua, you have recieved the Holy Spirit, all you need to do now is learn what is necessary to enter the kingdom. Now go to the Synogogue every Sabbath and learn Torah."

Shalom

you don't actually believe salvation relies on anything but Christ do you?
relationship yes, but salvation?

[A_Pioneer]

you don't actually believe salvation relies on anything but Christ do you?
relationship yes, but salvation?Not at all! Salvation is salvation, being saved from the second death, not the Christian "Going to Heaven" If one gets all the benefits of doing the "Will of the Father" by accepting Jesus as our Savior? Why should I not cheat, steal and lie, I'm saved!

To me, salvation and receiving of the Holy Spirit is the "Entry Level Believer" good enough to get on the train, but not enough to enter into the Kingdom!

I am a "Backsliding Babtist" I sat back on my salvation for about fourty years and almost lost my soul! I would hate to see anybody else on that road. How about you?

Any twelve year old can be saved, but if he does not supplement that faith with virture and virture with knowledge, plus all the rest of Peters comments on making our "Election" sure. One can't sit on his faith and enter the Kingdom!

Shalom

[HalcyonFire]

Not at all! Salvation is salvation, being saved from the second death, not the Christian "Going to Heaven" If one gets all the benefits of doing the "Will of the Father" by accepting Jesus as our Savior? Why should I not cheat, steal and lie, I'm saved!

To me, salvation and receiving of the Holy Spirit is the "Entry Level Believer" good enough to get on the train, but not enough to enter into the Kingdom!

I am a "Backsliding Babtist" I sat back on my salvation for about fourty years and almost lost my soul! I would hate to see anybody else on that road. How about you?

Any twelve year old can be saved, but if he does not supplement that faith with virture and virture with knowledge, plus all the rest of Peters comments on making our "Election" sure. One can't sit on his faith and enter the Kingdom!

Shalom
so where do these on the train people end up?

[Wags]

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Paul apparently thought there was more than just "believe" and your done, he talks about obeying and working....

[HalcyonFire]

Paul apparently thought there was more than just "believe" and your done, he talks about obeying and working....



Salvation is a favor, a gift and because that is true, I can’t obtain it through my efforts. How can I possibly buy something that has already been purchased on my behalf by Christ? I can’t.“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Romans 4:4-5So, what do we do with Philippians 2:12? Do we need to pitch in where the cross left off? Is it up to you and me to not only complete the unfinished work of Jesus Christ but to maintain it as well? That would be absolutely crazy (not to mention impossible)!
Philippians 2:12b clearly says this, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” I believe that Paul is exhorting us to work through, to work out our salvation. Piece by piece, number by number, verse by verse so that we can understand more and more about our salvation. Don’t you want to know more about the depth and height of this wonderful gift that we have been given? Doesn’t the “inner wo-man” in you want to rest in what Christ has already accomplished on your behalf? We have the privilege of a lifetime of working out our understanding of our salvation!


Let me explain a bit further about “working out”. Let’s take these two verses from Ephesians:“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ.” When you first read those verses of scripture, you can tell that they’re full of Good News. But as you work out the meaning of each word and each phrase you begin to see some tremendous truths about your salvation.
1) God is the One in charge and He does all things.
2) He is rich in mercy because He’s God.
3) He has great love for you even though you were dead in sin.
4) He chose to make you alive because He’s rich in mercy and love.
5) He accomplished all of these things through the cross of Jesus Christ.
This is an example of working out your understanding of what your salvation means, what it includes, how it benefits you and why you can rest in it. And as if that isn’t enough, all this “working out” is really done by the Holy Spirit in you. (as He is the Teacher, is He not?)

The phrase “fear and trembling” is defined as “the anxiety of a person who distrusts in his or her ability to completely meet all requirements.” And, isn’t that exactly how you’d feel if you knew that (1) it was up to you to keep your salvation in place, (2) it was up to you to make yourself understand every detail of your salvation, or (3) it was up to you to help finish or maintain the cross of Christ? If I were responsible for more than just one of those – I would be in big trouble! I would be completely without hope.

[A_Pioneer]

so where do these on the train people end up?"Outer Darkness" Mt.22:1-14, This man received an invitation, accepted it and he came to the wedding feast, but was it enough?
There is a lesson there-in.

2Pe.1:1-11

Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

Salvation is a favor, a gift and because that is true, I can’t obtain it through my efforts. How can I possibly buy something that has already been purchased on my behalf by Christ? I can’t.“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Romans 4:4-5So, what do we do with Philippians 2:12? Do we need to pitch in where the cross left off? Is it up to you and me to not only complete the unfinished work of Jesus Christ but to maintain it as well? That would be absolutely crazy (not to mention impossible)!
Philippians 2:12b clearly says this, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” I believe that Paul is exhorting us to work through, to work out our salvation. Piece by piece, number by number, verse by verse so that we can understand more and more about our salvation. Don’t you want to know more about the depth and height of this wonderful gift that we have been given? Doesn’t the “inner wo-man” in you want to rest in what Christ has already accomplished on your behalf? We have the privilege of a lifetime of working out our understanding of our salvation!



Let me explain a bit further about “working out”. Let’s take these two verses from Ephesians:“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ.” When you first read those verses of scripture, you can tell that they’re full of Good News. But as you work out the meaning of each word and each phrase you begin to see some tremendous truths about your salvation.
1) God is the One in charge and He does all things.
2) He is rich in mercy because He’s God.
3) He has great love for you even though you were dead in sin.
4) He chose to make you alive because He’s rich in mercy and love.
5) He accomplished all of these things through the cross of Jesus Christ.
This is an example of working out your understanding of what your salvation means, what it includes, how it benefits you and why you can rest in it. And as if that isn’t enough, all this “working out” is really done by the Holy Spirit in you. (as He is the Teacher, is He not?)

The phrase “fear and trembling” is defined as “the anxiety of a person who distrusts in his or her ability to completely meet all requirements.” And, isn’t that exactly how you’d feel if you knew that (1) it was up to you to keep your salvation in place, (2) it was up to you to make yourself understand every detail of your salvation, or (3) it was up to you to help finish or maintain the cross of Christ? If I were responsible for more than just one of those – I would be in big trouble! I would be completely without hope.The cart goes behind the horse! No one receives salvation by works. Salvation is by faith. But after you are saved, don't do anything and you'll go to heaven! "Hogwash!"

[HalcyonFire]

"Outer Darkness" Mt.22:1-14, This man received an invitation, accepted it and he came to the wedding feast, but was it enough?
There is a lesson there-in.

2Pe.1:1-11

Shalom
so the gift of Christ condemns you to "outer darkness" as opposed to hell... doesn't seem too much different as hell (she'ol) is an unknown place by definition to the Jews... is it not?

[A_Pioneer]

so the gift of Christ condemns you to "outer darkness" as opposed to hell... doesn't seem too much different as hell (she'ol) is an unknown place by definition to the Jews... is it not?Hey! If you don't read your disclaimer, why have it?

"Outer Darkness" is one thousand times better than the Christian "Ever Burning Hell"!

As James said "I will show you my faith by works."

And all one has to do to enter the City by it's gates is to do the will of the Father!

[HalcyonFire]

Hey! If you don't read your disclaimer, why have it?

"Outer Darkness" is one thousand times better than the Christian "Ever Burning Hell"!

As James said "I will show you my faith by works."

And all one has to do to enter the City by it's gates is to do the will of the Father!
hell related to flames is not an OT truth, but a NT interpretation showing the greek influence in translation.

works come from relationship, I concur... I still fail to see why one would attain salvation and be in the same type of unknown place they would have been in anyway.

the disclaimer is old and is really not on topic, but a distraction tactic to cause defense, is it not?

[visionary]

Since this thread has moved from answering question to debating "hell"... it will be moved to debate area.