Bear with me asking again

[Colabomb]

I'm still not understanding the objection to the word "Christian".

The Earliest usage of the word Included Jewish and Gentile Believers, some of which were from Jerusalem, and Torah Observant.

The common reason i hear has something to do with non Torah Holidays being introduced into the body etc. But "Christian" was used long before these holidays were added.

And most messianics celebrate a non Torah holiday (Hannukah) anyway.

Why is there such an objection to a term that has has identified both jewish and gentile believers in Christ from the beginning?

[Lebesgue]

I'm still not understanding the objection to the word "Christian".

The Earliest usage of the word Included Jewish and Gentile Believers, some of which were from Jerusalem, and Torah Observant.

The common reason i hear has something to do with non Torah Holidays being introduced into the body etc. But "Christian" was used long before these holidays were added.

And most messianics celebrate a non Torah holiday (Hannukah) anyway.

Why is there such an objection to a term that has has identified both jewish and gentile believers in Christ from the beginning?

I don't have a problem with the word Christian or people calling themselves such.

I just don't consider myself as one. I have in common with Christians the belief in Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, but I practice Judaism. Given that I think Messianic believer is the appropriate term for where I stand.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[Wags]

The term was originally used by gentiles in a derogatory manner to refer to gentile converts. It did not originally refer to Jews.

As to current day objections - much harm has been done to the Jewish people by folks claiming to be Christians. Many of us have family members that still bear the scars or have personally experienced harassment and discrimination in real life from folks that call themselves Christians. Would you want to be identified with those that wish to harm you?

And from the Messianic stand point, what we have in common with Christians is our belief that Yeshua is the Messiah. But the rest of our theology doesn't exactly follow mainstream Christianity. :)

[Lulav]

I'm still not understanding the objection to the word "Christian".

The Earliest usage of the word Included Jewish and Gentile Believers, some of which were from Jerusalem, and Torah Observant.

The common reason i hear has something to do with non Torah Holidays being introduced into the body etc. But "Christian" was used long before these holidays were added.

And most messianics celebrate a non Torah holiday (Hannukah) anyway.

Why is there such an objection to a term that has has identified both jewish and gentile believers in Christ from the beginning?

From the other thread
I don't know, i guess I'm just annoyed. I will second this from the other thread on the same thing

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45188942&postcount=6

[Torah613]

I'm still not understanding the objection to the word "Christian".

The Earliest usage of the word Included Jewish and Gentile Believers, some of which were from Jerusalem, and Torah Observant.

The common reason i hear has something to do with non Torah Holidays being introduced into the body etc. But "Christian" was used long before these holidays were added.

And most messianics celebrate a non Torah holiday (Hannukah) anyway.

Why is there such an objection to a term that has has identified both jewish and gentile believers in Christ from the beginning?
Channukah is not a non-Torah holiday.

The word Torah (in this case) refers to both the written and oral Torah, and thus includes the Talmud which mandates the celebration of Channukah.

Not to mention that the Torah states that the Jewish community can institute new holidays. A modern example of this is Yom HaShoah.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Channukah is not a non-Torah holiday.

The word Torah (in this case) refers to both the written and oral Torah, and thus includes the Talmud which mandates the celebration of Channukah.

Not to mention that the Torah states that the Jewish community can institute new holidays. A modern example of this is Yom HaShoah.

Yochanan
Judaism is a language. It is the language used by Jews to express our love for HaShem to Him.

Just like any other language, Judaism is constantly evolving.

An example of languages evolving, ever read Beowulf in the original?

Yochanan

[visionary]

I'm still not understanding the objection to the word "Christian". not so much an objection to the word "christian" as there is some objection to implied 'romanisation" of the "christian" faith. If christian was still known as a jewish sect, there would be no offense. The Earliest usage of the word Included Jewish and Gentile Believers, some of which were from Jerusalem, and Torah Observant. Yep The common reason i hear has something to do with non Torah Holidays being introduced into the body etc. that does portray the 'romanized christian' tow the world as "christian" and not the judaism christian" as 'christian". But "Christian" was used long before these holidays were added. I agree. And most messianics celebrate a non Torah holiday (Hannukah) anyway. Yeshua celebrated Hannukah.. it is known in the bible as feast of dedication. John 10:22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, ...Why is there such an objection to a term that has has identified both jewish and gentile believers in Christ from the beginning?It was the pagans who coined the term because the believers were always talking about Christ. It was slang term but it stuck and has now come to represent for the most part just the roman version of christians and not the judaism version of christians. We are trying to change that.

[Kris10leigh]

Cola, do you possibly have another thought in mind that perhaps you haven't been able to verbalize? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please tell me if I'm right or not.

Are you really asking why Jews who come to know Jesus as the Messiah don't simply convert or become "Christian"?

If that is what you are really asking, I think I know the answer. If a Jew were to "become Christian", so to speak, I suppose that Jew would have a multitude of doctrines to take on and choose from. A Jew who becomes a generic "Christian" casts aside his Jewish heritage, because there isn't much Judaeism left in mainstream Christianity.

On the flip side, a Jewish person who believes that Jesus is the Messiah who came to FULFILL Torah, not abolish it, needs some other title. Mainstream Christianity hasn't left much room for a Torah following Jew to jump aboard.

Does that make sense? :pink:

[Colabomb]

Cola, do you possibly have another thought in mind that perhaps you haven't been able to verbalize? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please tell me if I'm right or not.

Are you really asking why Jews who come to know Jesus as the Messiah don't simply convert or become "Christian"?

If that is what you are really asking, I think I know the answer. If a Jew were to "become Christian", so to speak, I suppose that Jew would have a multitude of doctrines to take on and choose from. A Jew who becomes a generic "Christian" casts aside his Jewish heritage, because there isn't much Judaeism left in mainstream Christianity.

On the flip side, a Jewish person who believes that Jesus is the Messiah who came to FULFILL Torah, not abolish it, needs some other title. Mainstream Christianity hasn't left much room for a Torah following Jew to jump aboard.

Does that make sense? :pink:


No actually Kristen that's not what i'm saying. And this is part of the frustration, the assumption that Christians are out to assimilate Jews.

I'm not here to assimilate anyone. I don't care that you celebrate, partake in and Live Jewish Practice and Life. That does not disturb me or bother me in the least. But it is so frustrating that that is assumed :(

If it strengthens your faith, or you feel called by God to do so, I encourage it.

My argument is not that you should "become" Christian, but rather that you already are. We are not separate people, we are not two faiths. We are One. We should be one, we should act as one.

I feel there is an artificial divorce between us, and that it is ungodly. I feel a strong message of the new covenant is that Jews and Gentiles are now One in Him. You may keep the Traditions and Practices of your fathers. I can keep the traditions of mine, while still being your brother. While still being a part of The one Church/Ekklesia/Body whatever you want to call it.

Im' tired of being treated as the other because i am a gentile. Im tired of people making assumptions that I am out to destroy your culture. I am not. I simply want to be one Body as we are called to be in Scripture.

Christian does not mean Gentile. Christian does not mean mainstream. Christian does not mean abandoning Jewish Tradition. Christian Means follower of the Christ.

There is One Lord, One faith, One Baptism. In Christ we are one, not two. In Christ we are One.

.

[LadyGarnetRose]

The problem is, many Jews who accept Yeshua Ben Yosef as the Messiah. Do not see it as one faith. And many return to Judaism, because of the tenets of Christianity (I am not saying YOU are one of them) and inconsitancies that result.

I do not believe that the one you call The Christ ever came to change Judaism but came to change the practices of the Rabbis of the day.

To pull us back to what is written in Torah and the Oral laws rather than being surpressed by a ruling class who stood and presented themselves as Holier than Thou.

[visionary]

There are Jews who believe the romanized version of Christianity. There are gentiles who believe the romanized version of Christianity


There are Jews who believe in the Judaism as it is found in Yeshua as it was orginally called christianity. There are gentiles who believe in the Judaism as it is found in Yeshua as it was orginally called christianity.

[Kris10leigh]

No actually Kristen that's not what i'm saying. And this is part of the frustration, the assumption that Christians are out to assimilate Jews.

Hold on a minute. I am a Christian who posed these thoughts to you. I haven't figured what I am exactly, but I am a gentile following the way of the Messianics and I still attend a Methodist church. I am not saying at all that you or any other Christian is out to assimilate Jews. It's been more my experience that Christians are out to assimilate each other! ^_^ (Being funny)


I'm not here to assimilate anyone. I don't care that you celebrate, partake in and Live Jewish Practice and Life. That does not disturb me or bother me in the least. But it is so frustrating that that is assumed :(

Again, I assumed nothing. I'm just trying to figure out why you have no problem with the term "Catholic" or "Baptist" but one with Messianic. You asked an important question but apparently none of us are able to sufficiently answer for it you.

My argument is not that you should "become" Christian, but rather that you already are. We are not separate people, we are not two faiths. We are One. We should be one, we should act as one.
I can only speak for myself on this one, but coming from MY background, I agree. Unfortunately, you (collectively) have to understand that it's probably a pretty big pill for a Jew to swallow being called "Christian". Our history is pretty bleak.

Christian does not mean Gentile.
Right, but it does mean "non-Jewish" which means that Christians are gentiles.

Christian does not mean mainstream.
I don't see what you mean on this one. There are so money Christian denominations, "mainstream" is just a way of saying "the majority of Christians". Messiancs can't be called "mainstream" because our belief system is pretty radical.

Christian does not mean abandoning Jewish Tradition. Of course not, and not all do. But for the most part, the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus died to bring us into a new convenant, wiping out Jewish tradition and law.

Christian Means follower of the Christ. As does "Kristen" ;)

There is One Lord, One faith, One Baptism. In Christ we are one, not two. In Christ we are One. :thumbsup: Agreed! We (ALL the denominations) just get there in a varying ways.

[Ivy]

I don't care that you celebrate, partake in and Live Jewish Practice and Life. That does not disturb me or bother me in the least. But it is so frustrating that that is assumed :(

I feel a strong message of the new covenant is that Jews and Gentiles are now One in Him. You may keep the Traditions and Practices of your fathers. I can keep the traditions of mine, while still being your brother. While still being a part of The one Church/Ekklesia/Body whatever you want to call it.




Cola, you've wonderfully articulated my own feeling & stance--probably better than I usually have. Thanks! :thumbsup: Awesome.

[debi b]

My argument is not that you should "become" Christian, but rather that you already are. We are not separate people, we are not two faiths. We are One. We should be one, we should act as one.

I feel there is an artificial divorce between us, and that it is ungodly. I feel a strong message of the new covenant is that Jews and Gentiles are now One in Him. You may keep the Traditions and Practices of your fathers. I can keep the traditions of mine, while still being your brother. While still being a part of The one Church/Ekklesia/Body whatever you want to call it.

...I simply want to be one Body as we are called to be in Scripture.



I would submit that Jews and Gentiles both following did not begin in the new covenant :D I believe the scriptures teach that this was ALWAYS the intention of the creator.

Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger (gere) shall sojourn with you, and will keep the Passover to Hashem (the Lord), let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land; for no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

If we follow this concept forward I believe it paints a very differnt picture :wave:

[Ivy]

It's been more my experience that Christians are out to assimilate each other! ^_^ (Being funny)





ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D I like it; very funny :thumbsup:

[visionary]

I would submit that Jews and Gentiles both following did not begin in the new covenant I believe the scriptures teach that this was ALWAYS the intention of the creator.


Quote:
Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger (gere) shall sojourn with you, and will keep the Passover to Hashem (the Lord), let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one who is born in the land; for no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

If we follow this concept forward I believe it paints a very different picture This needs repeating because it is what I believe God wants all His people to do, become one in Him.

[Colabomb]

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?



Wags, i really didn't want to bring up the law yet again. I'm tired of debating the same thing with you over and over and over again. I bring up unity, you bring up how genitles aren't following the law.


Relevant i don't know how.

[ShirChadash]

Wags, i really didn't want to bring up the law yet again. I'm tired of debating the same thing with you over and over and over again. I bring up unity, you bring up how genitles aren't following the law.
Unity need not be unanimity.

There can be unity in the sense you are describing, and from my past experience, I would say I think there actually is -- in the way you mentioned, "one body, one Lord" etc -- without there being unanimity in name... and unity regardless whether Messianics (any, all, individuals, group) choose to define themselves under the same larger umbrella title of "Christian" (which, whether you agree or not, means far more to many people here, beyond simply "Christ-follower").

The fact is, there are indeed vast differences in the the way Messianics view/believe a lot of the same theologies that Catholic-derived Christians believe, and also in the way many Messianics express/practice their believing. There is, in fact, tremendous variation within Messianicism itself, and yet I would argue that the Trinitarian AND non-Trinitarian, kosher-eating AND clean-eating, Jewish AND gentile Messianics are all... Messianics. And though there is often argument and division on what to believe and how to believe it, as well as how to put it into practice... meh, there is still unity underlying the differences.

And though Messianic beliefs are from an entirely separate position from the Romanized church and its various off-shoots and protestant denominations, still in all the same basic unity ("One body" etc), but not unanimity, holds true for Messianics with Christians... whether the chosen umbrella title is the same or not.

All "denominations" and sects have members who focus more in conversation on how their "church"/group is different from some/many other churches/groups. As a cradle Catholic, I recall very well the numerous Catholics I knew who didn't and wouldn't define themselves as Christian because while Christian was a nice term, it wasn't accurate enough (their words) and they were not "simply Christian, but Catholic!" In fact, many were very vocal about it when I pressed them. Yet, in college, I often asked protestants I met where they went to church and then what their church believes; they would immediately launch into a declaration of how their church is different from Catholicism, without knowing me or that I was Catholic. I've noticed it as an adult, reading protestant church hand-outs and tracts as well. Brothers in faith, they may all be, but there's not always anything like a plethora of warm fuzzy brotherly feelings amongst them all, nor have I seen any lack of non-brotherly descriptions when they compare and contrast themselves. So while they are all "in unity" because they choose to use the same umbrella title, the real unity lies in the fact that they all believe what they believe very similarly (again, Romanized and its off-shoots), and they practice what they believe pretty similarly, or the same. Much of Messianicism hasn't even that amount of similarity with Catholic-derived sects. Yet you're declaring that Messianics should use the general term of "Christian" to refer to themselves, simply because you think it implies they are more united with you in faith in Jesus. Such a declaration overlooks the very real fact that they are not united in many standard Christian practices that Catholic-derived Christians share, many of which Messianics prefer to distinguish themselves from.

Sorry... got rambly. My point is, again, unity need not demand uniformity -- neither in practice, nor in *title*. And most Christian groups, or at the very least their members, make a concerted effort to know how and why they are different from the ______________ (so and so, whichever churches), because after all, if differences are unimportant, there wouldn't be any.

[Wags]

Wags, i really didn't want to bring up the law yet again. I'm tired of debating the same thing with you over and over and over again. I bring up unity, you bring up how genitles aren't following the law.


Relevant i don't know how.

I have only posted ONCE in this thread (post #3) - and I didn't mention "the law" in my response to your question. :scratch:

[A_Pioneer]

Christian Means follower of the Christ.



The word means "Followers of Christ", but they follow something/body else.
If they followed Yeshua they would not change everything he said and did! He never spoke the name of your spring celebration, Christmas, Sunday Worship, 3,500 denominations.
He spoke obedience to Torah, he obeyed Torah, kept the Sabbath Holy, went to Temple, ate kosher, wore tzit tzit, and went to mikvah, ect., ect. He clearly was not Christian! And he was Ha Moshiach! I follow the Messiah.

1Cor.11:1 Go and do likewise.

[Kris10leigh]

The word means "Followers of Christ", but they follow something/body else.
If they followed Yeshua they would not change everything he said and did! He never spoke the name of your spring celebration, Christmas, Sunday Worship, 3,500 denominations.
He spoke obedience to Torah, he obeyed Torah, kept the Sabbath Holy, went to Temple, ate kosher, wore tzit tzit, and went to mikvah, ect., ect. He clearly was not Christian! And he was Ha Moshiach! I follow the Messiah.

1Cor.11:1 Go and do likewise.

For Cola's benefit I'd like to clarify that "Ha Moshiach" means "the Messiah".

Pioneer, I agree whole heartedly. There's a part of me though that wants to soften these words because they are quite harsh sounding to anyone who believes he/she is following the Messiah as a Christian.

But it is a perfect example for why there is such a large wedge driven here.

[visionary]

For Cola's benefit I'd like to clarify that "Ha Moshiach" means "the Messiah".

Pioneer, I agree whole heartedly. There's a part of me though that wants to soften these words because they are quite harsh sounding to anyone who believes he/she is following the Messiah as a Christian.

But it is a perfect example for why there is such a large wedge driven here.How should a wake-up call be? soft and gentile... or bugle... depends on how important it is.

[Kris10leigh]

How should a wake-up call be? soft and gentile... or bugle... depends on how important it is.

I know, I know. You are right, of course. :sigh: It just doesn't sit well with me. I have a hard time with conflict. ;)

[ElsanRandiMom]

ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D I like it; very funny :thumbsup:
ditto

[ElsanRandiMom]

The word means "Followers of Christ", but they follow something/body else.
If they followed Yeshua they would not change everything he said and did! He never spoke the name of your spring celebration, Christmas, Sunday Worship, 3,500 denominations.
He spoke obedience to Torah, he obeyed Torah, kept the Sabbath Holy, went to Temple, ate kosher, wore tzit tzit, and went to mikvah, ect., ect. He clearly was not Christian! And he was Ha Moshiach! I follow the Messiah.

1Cor.11:1 Go and do likewise.
The problem is that misinformation has become tradition. Many Christians are well intentioned but are just sheep following a leader. Many like to deny the Jewishness of the Messiah because it is uncomfortable (though how you can deny who He was is beyond me - it shapes His teaching and understanding). But I will say this, even people practicing Jewish tradition can miss the point of Christ totally. It doesn't require misinformation to miss the mark.

[MessianicShmuely]

Wags, i really didn't want to bring up the law yet again. I'm tired of debating the same thing with you over and over and over again. I bring up unity, you bring up how genitles aren't following the law.


Relevant i don't know how.

I'd like to bring up an important & interesting point. There are many times more Goyim in Messianic Synagogues than Jews. Many of these Goyim mistakingly call themselves Messianic Jews and their children are utterly confused as what their identity is.

I know this has been posted in another thread but it's still an interesting article
http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/ (http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/18/32/)

The Case for Conversion: Welcoming Non-Jews into Messianic Jewish Space by Rabbi Dr. Richard Nichol

[Colabomb]

The problem is that misinformation has become tradition. Many Christians are well intentioned but are just sheep following a leader. Many like to deny the Jewishness of the Messiah because it is uncomfortable (though how you can deny who He was is beyond me - it shapes His teaching and understanding). But I will say this, even people practicing Jewish tradition can miss the point of Christ totally. It doesn't require misinformation to miss the mark.

Geh, Yet again, another assumption.

I am quite aware my Messiah was a Jew. I am aware that he was torah observant, and in the Tradition of the Hebrew Prophets.

I, simply, am not Jewish, and I'm sick of being looked down upon because of it. Keep the Traditions of your fathers. I say that again and again and again and again and again. But I simply ask that you do what paul says and stop judging others based on their religious observances.

[Lulav]

Cola how about this , in the world scheme of things we are considered 'Christians' and all are seen as 'those people' in other words, those who believe in someone called Christ. That is from the outside looking on. but we are all from the inside and know our differences in how we perceive this Christ, or this messiah.

It really is kind of like the laws G-d gave us, Yeshua said there are two greatest laws, and we also know that they are the heads of the two parts of the ten commandments, Love G-d and L-ve your neighbor. The rest of the 613 also fall only into those two catagories, yet they are more specialized and distinct in how to do that. I think that Christianity is the same. There is the Gentile branch which did branch off from the Jewish branch. The one is definatly Hellenized and the other more Hebraic. Now the Hebraic has always been the remnant and not equal in size to the Hellenized , even when it was only Jews that knew the true G-d, and so it is today, and most likely always will be.

The reason things are confused now, is that some Gentiles ( and I do always try and capitalize both, but my spell check isn't working right now and I may have not) have noticed the Messianic movement. These were the ones who were Bereans in their churches, they did not sit back and let someone teach them about G-ds word, and what it means, but they were participants int this and looked for guidance from the Holy Spirit. When they becan to hear about the Messianic movement, it attracted them, because one of the first things they discovered after all this time is that their Savior was a Jew and still is!

This in turn lead to them wanting to learn about how he really lived, ate, spoke, thought, etc. And Messianic Judaism was the only thing that resembled this, thus the Gentiles started coming into the Messianic congregations, on a Saturday, and it has very quickly excelerated since then. But it is going so fast, now the Jews again are in the minority. Many Jews 30+ years ago that were coming to faith in Yeshua were farmed off into a Christian church. This caused quite an upset in the families and the Jewish community, some treated this as a cultic thing and drastic measures were applied.

today there is a choice and many Jews choose to go to the Messianic synagogue, but now because so many Gentiles are coming in, they also bring with them the Hellenized baggage of the Christian world and are for the most part, taking over, which in turn is pushing the few Jews out and to the traditional Non Messianic synagogue.

And this is sad, very sad, but I've watched it happen over and over and have even considered it myself.

Now please, I don't want any Gentile Messianic to take this wrong, I love you dearly and love your support of the Jewish people ( some are more supportive than others) and we should be Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah, but the Jew needs to get back what was lost and HaShem made us the head and we have been the tail too long.

Cola, if Mainstream Christianity had one head and at it's head, and I'm talking the physical head, Jews as we really have one spiritual head, which is Yeshua who is a Jew, then there would be no problem being called all by the same name, no matter what it was. But sadly that hasn't happened and I dont' think that it ever will no matter how many would want this, it will only happen when Yeshua comes back, and the body falls into place as he desires, not us.

[visionary]

Geh, Yet again, another assumption.

I am quite aware my Messiah was a Jew. I am aware that he was torah observant, and in the Tradition of the Hebrew Prophets.

I, simply, am not Jewish, and I'm sick of being looked down upon because of it. Keep the Traditions of your fathers. I say that again and again and again and again and again. But I simply ask that you do what paul says and stop judging others based on their religious observances.Do not keep tradition of your fathers.... Follow Yeshua, Paul tried his best to explain the walk in The Way, which was spirit lead and not tradition dictated. He never did away with the law, nor would he want anyone to think so. Paul went out of his way to prove that when he did get back to Jerusalem.

[Lulav]

Whose religious observances did the church take on?

[ElsanRandiMom]

Geh, Yet again, another assumption.

I am quite aware my Messiah was a Jew. I am aware that he was torah observant, and in the Tradition of the Hebrew Prophets.

I, simply, am not Jewish, and I'm sick of being looked down upon because of it. Keep the Traditions of your fathers. I say that again and again and again and again and again. But I simply ask that you do what paul says and stop judging others based on their religious observances.
I'm not Messianic or a Jew. I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying the church is rife with misinformation and misinterpretation. You may be comfortable with Jesus' Jewishness, but travel to another area of this forum and people will argue with you as to its validity and importance.

[A_Pioneer]

Do not keep tradition of your fathers.... Follow Yeshua, Paul tried his best to explain the walk in The Way, which was spirit lead and not tradition dictated. He never did away with the law, nor would he want anyone to think so. Paul went out of his way to prove that when he did get back to Jerusalem.Amen (1Cor.11:1 Go and do likewise.)

[Lulav]

Geh, Yet again, another assumption.

I am quite aware my Messiah was a Jew. I am aware that he was torah observant, and in the Tradition of the Hebrew Prophets.

I, simply, am not Jewish, and I'm sick of being looked down upon because of it. Keep the Traditions of your fathers. I say that again and again and again and again and again. But I simply ask that you do what paul says and stop judging others based on their religious observances.
I tried to quote you in the other post but I think everyone was posting at the same time and it hiccuped and didnt post it.

I was asking , since you were saying to this lady, to Keep the traditions of your fathers ( and if she wasn't jewish that isnt' very nice to say) But where did your traditions, religious ones that you connect to Jesus, come from? Dont you think they are better to have come from your Saviors side than the rest of the worlds?

[ElsanRandiMom]

I tried to quote you in the other post but I think everyone was posting at the same time and it hiccuped and didnt post it.

I was asking , since you were saying to this lady, to Keep the traditions of your fathers ( and if she wasn't jewish that isnt' very nice to say) But where did your traditions, religious ones that you connect to Jesus, come from? Dont you think they are better to have come from your Saviors side than the rest of the worlds?
and how on Earth can you possibly understand Christ but to know Judaism? It's like communion is totally lost on most Christians because they dont' understand the complete story.

[visionary]

and how on Earth can you possibly understand Christ but to know Judaism? It's like communion is totally lost on most Christians because they dont' understand the complete story.You are beginning to sound like us. :thumbsup:

[Lulav]

and how on Earth can you possibly understand Christ but to know Judaism? It's like communion is totally lost on most Christians because they dont' understand the complete story.

Yet the sad thing is, they don't even know it. :(

[ElsanRandiMom]

Yet the sad thing is, they don't even know it. :(
again a product of teaching. that's why people who cling to the teachings of their elders and leaders for interpretation and understanding just makes me ILL. I did this for so long and have been so set free in denying that and starting from the beginning myself.

[Kris10leigh]

again a product of teaching. that's why people who cling to the teachings of their elders and leaders for interpretation and understanding just makes me ILL. I did this for so long and have been so set free in denying that and starting from the beginning myself.
Even worse is knowing that many pastors (I won't say all) do know these truths. They study all, the good, the bad and the ugly in seminary, but they do not preach/teach these things because it isn't what the people want to hear.

[ElsanRandiMom]

Even worse is knowing that many pastors (I won't say all) do know these truths. They study all, the good, the bad and the ugly in seminary, but they do not preach/teach these things because it isn't what the people want to hear.
or possibly is it a control issue?

[Kris10leigh]

or possibly is it a control issue?
eh...wouldn't go that far. Of only those few I know of first hand it is more of a matter of practicality. We all have to make a living and there's not much living to be done off an empty church.


See, there go politics rearing its ugly head again. I wish I knew of a solution.

[Torah613]

Do not keep tradition of your fathers.... Follow Yeshua, Paul tried his best to explain the walk in The Way, which was spirit lead and not tradition dictated. He never did away with the law, nor would he want anyone to think so. Paul went out of his way to prove that when he did get back to Jerusalem.
Cola is not Halachichally Jewish and thus is at no point under any obligation to keep the Torah.

I for one am actually insulted when non-jews keep certain of hte commandments. An example would be Tefflin and Tzitzith, which were given to the Jewish people by HaShem as a perpetual reminder of our covenent to Him.

Now if a gentile were to convert, that is an Orthodox conversion which is the only valid way, than of course he/she should follow the Mitzvoth. But the Torah is clear that at no time is a Goy under any obligation to observe the Mitzvoth.

Yochanan

[ElsanRandiMom]

eh...wouldn't go that far. Of only those few I know of first hand it is more of a matter of practicality. We all have to make a living and there's not much living to be done off an empty church.


See, there go politics rearing its ugly head again. I wish I knew of a solution.
Christ? lol. I think that's what the "comes with a Sword" thing is about.

[Colabomb]

again a product of teaching. that's why people who cling to the teachings of their elders and leaders for interpretation and understanding just makes me ILL. I did this for so long and have been so set free in denying that and starting from the beginning myself.

Have you ever even HEARD of the Talmud? Its the teachings of the Jewish Elders and Teachers on the Torah. There is nothing wrong with Tradition in and of itself. The Jews are a VERY Traditional People.

BTW, I am quite comfortable questioning and sutdying for myself. My religious devotion is CONSIDERABLY different than the one i grew up in.

Joe can attest to that, from his time in Anglicanism.

He can also attest that i am not a blind follower of anything.

[Torah613]

Have you ever even HEARD of the Talmud? Its the teachings of the Jewish Elders and Teachers on the Torah. There is nothing wrong with Tradition in and of itself. The Jews are a VERY Traditional People.

BTW, I am quite comfortable questioning and sutdying for myself. My religious devotion is CONSIDERABLY different than the one i grew up in.

Joe can attest to that, from his time in Anglicanism.

He can also attest that i am not a blind follower of anything.
It would be truly meet and right so to do.

Sorry Cola, I couldn't resist. ;)

Yochanan

[ElsanRandiMom]

Have you ever even HEARD of the Talmud? Its the teachings of the Jewish Elders and Teachers on the Torah. There is nothing wrong with Tradition in and of itself. The Jews are a VERY Traditional People.

BTW, I am quite comfortable questioning and sutdying for myself. My religious devotion is CONSIDERABLY different than the one i grew up in.

Joe can attest to that, from his time in Anglicanism.

He can also attest that i am not a blind follower of anything.
notice I was talking to someone else in a commentary not specifically directed at your person.

I have heard of the Talmud. I have my thoughts on that as well but I won't digress any further from the topic at hand.

[Colabomb]

I tried to quote you in the other post but I think everyone was posting at the same time and it hiccuped and didnt post it.

I was asking , since you were saying to this lady, to Keep the traditions of your fathers ( and if she wasn't jewish that isnt' very nice to say)



Eh, i keep forgetting she's not Jewish.

I'm not saying that we should blindly follow the examples of our predecessors. I'm saying that I personally (and frankly the majority of Christainity, regardless of what people think) don't care if you follow the Law. It is quite clear in the Scripture that there were both Observant and Non Observant believers in the early Church and both were to be treated as equal brothers in Christ.

But where did your traditions, religious ones that you connect to Jesus, come from? Dont you think they are better to have come from your Saviors side than the rest of the worlds?

My ancestors worshipped false gods. I worship the True God. I don't particularly think he cares that I do it on what used to be pagan days. My God is not obsessive Compulsive.

In fact, I think he probably enjoys the fact that something evil and honoring of other false gods, has been Transformed into something that Reflects upon Him and His Gospel.

In The old days they said "Look at this holly it represents fertility and the goddess of fertility" We took the holly and the theme of new life, and said, Look at this, you celebrate birth and fertility, let us show you the New Birth and True Life that never fades.

In the old days they celebrated the birth of the sun. We say look, behold the incarnation of the SON!

those things that were wicked, have now been made clean.

[ElsanRandiMom]

Eh, i keep forgetting she's not Jewish.

.
^_^ ;)

[Torah613]

The point I think Cola is making is that noone should blindly follow anything.

We as observant Jews don't blindly follow. many of us spend every free minute studying to learn more about the Mitzvoth.

Yochanan

[Colabomb]

It would be truly meet and right so to do.

Sorry Cola, I couldn't resist. ;)

Yochanan

Hehe. I miss the old liturgy sometimes :(

The 79 book isn't bad, but the language of the old was just beautiful wasn't it? :P

[Torah613]

Cola, I was never so radical as to go 28. ;) I was quoting Rite I which my parish used upon occassion.

Yochanan

[Colabomb]

eh...wouldn't go that far. Of only those few I know of first hand it is more of a matter of practicality. We all have to make a living and there's not much living to be done off an empty church.


See, there go politics rearing its ugly head again. I wish I knew of a solution.

I find this quite insulting. You think we'd alter teaching based on money?

We truly believe what we say, you may disagree with us, but to accuse us of worshiping mammon is hurtful.

[Colabomb]

Cola, I was never so radical as to go 28. ;) I was quoting Rite I which my parish used upon occassion.

Yochanan

Hehe yeah. I actually do enjoy Rite 2, but i admit to getting nostalgic.

(Last post on this as i realise how off topic we've gotten :P)

[ElsanRandiMom]

I find this quite insulting. You think we'd alter teaching based on money?

We truly believe what we say, you may disagree with us, but to accuse us of worshiping mammon is hurtful.
Again, I think she was speaking in generalities.

I personally have seen this occur first hand in a church in our small town of 3000. While it is not necessarily the majority that does it, it does happen.

[Wags]

My ancestors worshipped false gods. I worship the True God. I don't particularly think he cares that I do it on what used to be pagan days. My God is not obsessive Compulsive.

In fact, I think he probably enjoys the fact that something evil and honoring of other false gods, has been Transformed into something that Reflects upon Him and His Gospel.

In The old days they said "Look at this holly it represents fertility and the goddess of fertility" We took the holly and the theme of new life, and said, Look at this, you celebrate birth and fertility, let us show you the New Birth and True Life that never fades.

In the old days they celebrated the birth of the sun. We say look, behold the incarnation of the SON!

those things that were wicked, have now been made clean.


You don't believe that God cares how you conduct your life?
You don't think He cares about mixing Holy with pagan things?

:confused:

[Torah613]

Cola is not Jewish. Thus he should not keep the commandments without converting. He should follow the Noachide laws, but by keeping the Mitzvoth which specifically are given to the Jewish people he would unwittingly insult us.

Anyways, as an outsider let me just state for the record that Messianics are Christians.

begin hurling rotten tomatoes-----now.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Deut 12:28

Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.

29
When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

30
Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

[Colabomb]

Deut 12:28

Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.

29
When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

30
Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The Law Given to the Israelites. They were right to obey it.

[Torah613]

Shir, the difference being these are commandments to Jews. Now I'm not saying that non-jews shouldn't keep Kosher (it has benefits) and shouldn't keep the various noachide laws. But when it comes to certain commandments such as Tefflin and Tzitzith, these are reminders to the Jewish people of our covenant with HaShem. Non-jews who are not undergoing a Halachic conversion process should not observe them.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Shir, the difference being these are commandments to Jews. Now I'm not saying that non-jews shouldn't keep Kosher (it has benefits) and shouldn't keep the various noachide laws. But when it comes to certain commandments such as Tefflin and Tzitzith, these are reminders to the Jewish people of our covenant with HaShem. Non-jews who are not undergoing a Halachic conversion process should not observe them.

Yochanan
Absolutely.

I posted the verses in response to Wags :) . Our G-d is not blessed nor pleased when pagan worship is mixed with His Holy mitzvot. I do always find it so interesting when Christians insist they worship the same G-d as Jews, and He never changes, yet they believe Him to be different from Who He Himself revealed. ;) Speaking of benefits of generally following what G-d commands, there is no reason for Christians to mix pagan worship in, as well, and think it pleases G-d. IMO of course.

[Torah613]

excellent points shir.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

excellent points shir.

Yochanan
Thank you much, kind sir. :)

[Colabomb]

The Jews were given the law because they were given a special purpose by God. A special Blessing. You were given the Oracles, the Prophesies. Your purpose was to prepare the way of Messiah, and you have done it well.

Celebrate your heritage, live in it, Love it. But Realize it is not everyone's calling, it is not everyone's purpose.

Remember, Scripture makes it clear that even before Christ there were Gentiles who were made Righteous apart from the Law, because they followed the Law even without knowing it.

Do you think Paul was talking about Feast Days, Dietary Restrictions and Circumcision? Or was he talking about Love, Mercy, and Faith?

I think logic and history dictates the latter.

[Torah613]

Cola, which persons are you referring to? If you mean for instance Ruth, than she was a convert and thus a Jew. if you mean someone else, there was in Isreal the following two groups of people:

Ger Tzedek-a convert to the Jewish faith, and thus a member of the Jewish people.

Ger Toshav-a righteous alien. A Gentile who followed the Noachide laws.

You may not be aware, but unlike certain other world religions Judaism does not say you need to convert or even encourage people to convert. In fact we activly discourage it. After all the Talmud says its suppossed to be hard.
Yochanan

[Colabomb]

Concerning "pagan things". I have never worshipped a false God. I have never given glory to any other than The Holy One of your ancestors.

Jesus said his Followers will neither worship at the Temple or at the Mountain (The Jews and Samaratins of His day were sticklers about "Proper worship"), but in Spirit and in Truth.

Paul later writes,

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-29492b)] God made you[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-29492c)] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-29494d)]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.


I do not judge you for your Holidays, practices and observances. Do not Judge me for mine.

[ShirChadash]

Do you think Paul was talking about Feast Days, Dietary Restrictions and Circumcision? Or was he talking about Love, Mercy, and Faith?
The discrepancies between these two sets of things exist only in the non-Jewish mindset. If Paul was a Jew, he knew that the two -- practices and blessings -- are not mutually exclusive, but rather go hand-in-hand.

[A_Pioneer]

Cola, which persons are you referring to? If you mean for instance Ruth, than she was a convert and thus a Jew. if you mean someone else, there was in Isreal the following two groups of people:

Ger Tzedek-a convert to the Jewish faith, and thus a member of the Jewish people.

Ger Toshav-a righteous alien. A Gentile who followed the Noachide laws.

You may not be aware, but unlike certain other world religions Judaism does not say you need to convert or even encourage people to convert. In fact we activly discourage it. After all the Talmud says its suppossed to be hard.
YochananAnd this is the very reason for the "Breech Maker" to allow the Kingdom out to the Nations.

[ShirChadash]

Concerning "pagan things". I have never worshipped a false God. I have never given glory to any other than The Holy One of your ancestors.

Jesus said his Followers will neither worship at the Temple or at the Mountain (The Jews and Samaratins of His day were sticklers about "Proper worship"), but in Spirit and in Truth.

Paul later writes,




I do not judge you for your Holidays, practices and observances. Do not Judge me for mine.
I am unsure who you are even speaking to. Your points are all over the place on this thread and it has been difficult to know where you are going, or discern what your real issues are (and are not). You take everyone's general comments to be personally-directed toward you. And you respond very generally, in return. :scratch:

[Colabomb]

I do admit to being somewhat confused. I feel there are multiple conversations going on, and i'm getting a bit overwhelmed lol.

I admit to it ;)

[Colabomb]

Cola, which persons are you referring to? If you mean for instance Ruth, than she was a convert and thus a Jew. if you mean someone else, there was in Isreal the following two groups of people:

Ger Tzedek-a convert to the Jewish faith, and thus a member of the Jewish people.

Ger Toshav-a righteous alien. A Gentile who followed the Noachide laws.

You may not be aware, but unlike certain other world religions Judaism does not say you need to convert or even encourage people to convert. In fact we activly discourage it. After all the Talmud says its suppossed to be hard.
Yochanan

I am referring to What Paul wrote in Romans 2.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Paul obviously realized that these Gentiles who did not have the law weren't actually honoring the feast days, circumcising their children or obstaining from foods.

But he referred to them as being made righteous through being "doers of the law".

[Skeeterbug]

The word means "Followers of Christ", but they follow something/body else.
If they followed Yeshua they would not change everything he said and did! He never spoke the name of your spring celebration, Christmas, Sunday Worship, 3,500 denominations.
He spoke obedience to Torah, he obeyed Torah, kept the Sabbath Holy, went to Temple, ate kosher, wore tzit tzit, and went to mikvah, ect., ect. He clearly was not Christian! And he was Ha Moshiach! I follow the Messiah.

1Cor.11:1 Go and do likewise.
Yes You said it exactly. I follow commandments and festivals that Heshem laid out but I have found that Christians expect me to give up what is G-d created to folllow what man has created. 99% of Christians that I know have tried to get jews to give up anything jewish

[Kris10leigh]

I am unsure who you are even speaking to. Your points are all over the place on this thread and it has been difficult to know where you are going, or discern what your real issues are (and are not). You take everyone's general comments to be personally-directed toward you. And you respond very generally, in return. :scratch:
Cola, I'm going to try one more time to be nice. ;) I won't come back and bite your head off, but I will bow out. You've kind of bitten my head off more than a few times.

I just wanted to echo the statement here that you seem to take everyone's general comments as though personally-directed at you. Most of them have been aimed at the general population of Christians, and very few of them have been aimed at YOU. I think MOST everyone here commends you for your insight and desire to question and search.

[Colabomb]

Yes You said it exactly. I follow commandments and festivals that Heshem laid out but I have found that Christians expect me to give up what is G-d created to folllow what man has created. 99% of Christians that I know have tried to get jews to give up anything jewish


MY WORD THE PARANOIA!!!!! :doh:

I'm tired of being the boogie man. No matter what I say, the inevitable "GENTILES ARE OUT TO GET US" pops up. I am not out to get anyone GAH!

I have said a hundred times I and just about every Christian i know don't care about how you worship. We simply ask you to respect our decisions the way we respect yours.

[Colabomb]

Cola, I'm going to try one more time to be nice. ;) I won't come back and bite your head off, but I will bow out. You've kind of bitten my head off more than a few times.

I just wanted to echo the statement here that you seem to take everyone's general comments as though personally-directed at you. Most of them have been aimed at the general population of Christians, and very few of them have been aimed at YOU. I think MOST everyone here commends you for your insight and desire to question and search.

I'm sorry Kristen if I have snapped at you personally. I admit to losing my head sometimes. But I have been facing a barrage of Judgementalism and accusations of antisemitism.

My initial reason for posting in the messianic forum was to try to gently show that Gentiles are not necessarily out to get Jews. We aren't out to change their ways. We aren't out to "assimilate" them (you'd be surprised how many times that word comes up).

I get quite a bit of attitude and resistance, and i admit to becoming less than Christian sometimes in dealing with it.

And for the Record, I am not The enemy of the Jews. I am not out to get them, assimilate them, change them etc. In fact a GREAT DEAL of my energy on this forum has been spent in defense of Contra Mundum, an actual Jewish Believer who is constantly being assaulted by Gentiles for not being "Jewish Enough" for them.

You are seeing me at my end, at high levels of stress. This is not what i intended when i started posting here :(

[ShirChadash]

I just wanted to echo the statement here that you seem to take everyone's general comments as though personally-directed at you. Most of them have been aimed at the general population of Christians, and very few of them have been aimed at YOU. I think MOST everyone here commends you for your insight and desire to question and search.

case in point -- again --

MY WORD THE PARANOIA!!!!! :doh:

I'm tired of being the boogie man. No matter what I say, the inevitable "GENTILES ARE OUT TO GET US" pops up. I am not out to get anyone GAH!

I have said a hundred times I and just about every Christian i know don't care about how you worship. We simply ask you to respect our decisions the way we respect yours.

Paranoia insists that everyone is talking about you, when no one is. :)

Wowsa.

On another note... It seems to me that perhaps you simply are not, still, getting the picture that the experiences of others here are obviously very different from YOUR experiences. And on one hand, you are telling the Messianics that you don't care how they worship/what they practice, but you DO insist they must call themselves Christians in order for you to feel they are in unity with you. :sorry: You feel disrespected when the posters detail for you the reasons they neither practice what you practice nor call themselves Christians because they DON'T practice what you practice.

You say you simply ask that the Messianics respect your decisions the way you respect theirs. Uhm... you haven't at all realized that you are not respecting some folks' decision not to call themselves Christian specifically, for many varying reasons not the least of which is their differing experiences from yours. Your experiences are no MORE valid, yet in the process of hollering that the Messianics are somehow disrespecting you, you've walked all over at least that decision some of them have made (not to call themselves Christian). And in the process, you keep hollering that they are the ones who refuse to respect you, but I haven't seen them come into your denominational forum and declare that you are wrong for not following Judaism (that would be interesting :o ) or for calling yourself something other than... what... Yeshuahites or some specific thing (just throwing out a word).

Shalom... no dog in this on my part but I do see all sides pretty decently, I believe. I'm just hoping to help the dialogue become clearer...

[Colabomb]

case in point -- again --



Paranoia insists that everyone is talking about you, when no one is. :)

Wowsa.

On another note... It seems to me that perhaps you simply are not, still, getting the picture that the experiences of others here are obviously very different from YOUR experiences. And on one hand, you are telling the Messianics that you don't care how they worship/what they practice, but you DO insist they must call themselves Christians in order for you to feel they are in unity with you. :sorry: You feel disrespected when the posters detail for you the reasons they neither practice what you practice nor call themselves Christians because they DON'T practice what you practice.

You say you simply ask that the Messianics respect your decisions the way you respect theirs. Uhm... you haven't at all realized that you are not respecting some folks' decision not to call themselves Christian specifically, for many varying reasons not the least of which is their differing experiences from yours. Your experiences are no MORE valid, yet in the process of hollering that the Messianics are somehow disrespecting you, you've walked all over at least that decision some of them have made (not to call themselves Christian). And in the process, you keep hollering that they are the ones who refuse to respect you, but I haven't seen them come into your denominational forum and declare that you are wrong for not following Judaism (that would be interesting :o ) or for calling yourself something other than... what... Yeshuahites or some specific thing (just throwing out a word).

Shalom... no dog in this on my part but I do see all sides pretty decently, I believe. I'm just hoping to help the dialogue become clearer...

Initially I came to this place not to argue but to calmly defend from things like this.

http://christianforums.com/t6233809-messianic-jews-that-upsets-just-about-everyone.html

I have since admittedly lost my Cool. But Constantly being berated and judged anonymously, being constantly accused of destroying and defiling the faith, being constantly accused of being antisemitc, being constantly accused of being less than faithful, gets to a person afer a time.

It may just be healthy for me to leave.

[A_Pioneer]

MY WORD THE PARANOIA!!!!! :doh:

I'm tired of being the boogie man. No matter what I say, the inevitable "GENTILES ARE OUT TO GET US" pops up. I am not out to get anyone GAH!

I have said a hundred times I and just about every Christian i know don't care about how you worship. We simply ask you to respect our decisions the way we respect yours.Have any of the folks here gone over and tried to unify you in the Jewish Faith?

And BTW your reading "paranoia" is just a truth you deny. Do you celebrate the spring holiday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus? Christmas? Go to church on Sunday? How about the Moedim? Which ones were spoken by God? More paranoia! Truth you deny? Or What?
We don't author confussion. We don't author denial.
We uphold Torah just as Sha'ul said. If it's too hot in the hotseat get out of it!!!

[Colabomb]

http://christianforums.com/t7100150-im-leaving.html

[ShirChadash]

let them wallow in their percieved persecution.

methinks the kettle is calling the pot black.

*while YOU may not be anti-semitic, many are, including many Christians, often unknowingly BTW.

*while posters here have addressed those many, if the shoe doesn't fit for you then they were not addressing YOU personally, Cola.

*while YOU may not have called for Messianics to assimilate and leave behind torah observance, this IS the history of the Jewish experience in the church, and the church's behavior toward Jews, and it DOES continue to be the norm today in Christianity ("you are Christians now, you are 'set free' from G-d's desires for you -- Torah observance")... YOU may not say it but it is the prevailing stance, not only among gentile Christians but also among blood Jews who convert and go on to have nothing whatever to do with Judaism, taking on non-Jewish practice as well as perspective.

Perhaps in your absense from this forum, you could spend a little time trying to understand the reasoning behind the comments you are reacting to, the history which influences these posters in their posting, the history of the church and its long-held expectation that Jews-turned-"Christians" leave behind all traces of Jewish practice and perspective and adopt gentilized (non-Jewish perspective and teaching, and practice) Christianity or face persecution for refusing to comply.

Be well...

[visionary]

:wave: http://christianforums.com/t7100150-im-leaving.htmlMay the Lord bless you, shine a light upon your path, and show Hmself to you through your quiet time with Him, so much so, that you come back inspired and transformed.

[MessianicShmuely]

Shir, the difference being these are commandments to Jews. Now I'm not saying that non-jews shouldn't keep Kosher (it has benefits) and shouldn't keep the various noachide laws. But when it comes to certain commandments such as Tefflin and Tzitzith, these are reminders to the Jewish people of our covenant with HaShem. Non-jews who are not undergoing a Halachic conversion process should not observe them.

Yochanan

An interesting thing is that you can find the noachide laws in the Brit Hadasha (New Covenant)! In Acts of the Emissaries chapter 15 we see similarities between that and the Noachide laws.

The Noachide laws teach that Gentiles need not, in some cases must not, keep Torah commands. Gentiles will have a share in the World to Come, say some rabbis, only if they keep the Noachide laws. There is a lesser kind of convert, a Ger Toshav, who is define as a Gentile who keeps the Noachide laws. The Noachide laws are said to have been taught and part of Judaism since the days of Moses (but note that the evidence for this concept did not appear until 400 C.E.). The Noachide laws include seven basic prohibitions against:
1. Idolatry
2. Blasphemy
3. Eating blood
4. Murder
5. Theft
6. Sexual promiscuity
7. Injustice (they should establish courts of justice)

In Acts 15, Yakkov (James) urged that the non-Jews in the Y'shua movement would de diligent to observe four commands:
1. Abstain from the pollutions of idols and things sacrificed to idols.
2. Abstain from sexual promiscuity.
3. Refrain from eating meat strangled (with the blood in it).
4. Refrain from ingesting blood.
Note that the list from Acts 15 essentially covers three of the seven Noachide laws. Note also that there are other rationales for the Acts 15 list. Some would find here a practical legislation designed to immediately get non-Jews separated from pagan temple institutions, including idol-meat, meat not drained of blood, and temple prostitution. Others would see Leviticus 17 and 18 behind the commands to non-Jews in Acts 15, a standard of holiness in the congregations to avoid extreme pollution.
There are other possible parallels to the Noachide laws in the New Testament. Shaul (Paul), in several lists of damnable deeds, includes things like: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers (1 Cor. 6:9-10, see also Colossians 3:5-6 and Ephesians 5:5-6). This list has some similarity to the Noachide laws, but does not exactly match either. It is hard to see that Shaul would get “the greedy” from the Noachide laws, nor “drunkards.”



You know something that I think we should consider is that when Gentile Christians become Methodists or Baptists, or Catholics they have to go through a process or a conversion to that denomination. They take classes and learn about their founders and then when they are complete they are presented to the congregation. Why not have the same thing for Messianic Judaism??? There is NOTHING legalistic about it! I myself get a bit bent out of shape when a well meaning Gentile wears the things that are were meant as a Covenant between G-d and the Jewish people... how do we fix the problem?-- Conversion!

[A_Pioneer]

Shir, the difference being these are commandments to Jews. Now I'm not saying that non-jews shouldn't keep Kosher (it has benefits) and shouldn't keep the various noachide laws. But when it comes to certain commandments such as Tefflin and Tzitzith, these are reminders to the Jewish people of our covenant with HaShem. Non-jews who are not undergoing a Halachic conversion process should not observe them.

Yochanan
I read this and hear others espouse such stuff, but it seems the Disciples did not teach or imply anything like that. (nor does my teacher) A Little Jewish Cowboy who defies labels.
1Co11:1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Messiah.
1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
1Th 1:6 ¶ And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;
1Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
Heb 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
1Pe 3:13 and who is he who will be doing you evil, if of Him who is good ye may become imitators?

So until the Jews get around to doctoring the NT to suit their doctrines like the Christians did, I'm going to imitate Yeshua, Paul, Peter and the writer of Hebrews, doing all the things they did and said.

If it is a problem take it up with the Disciples when you see them.

Shalom

[Ivy]

99% of Christians that I know have tried to get jews to give up anything jewish

There has definitely been a recurrent bad history with that--such conduct is very very wrong.

But I think your percentage may be a little high. I can appreciate your justifiable angst as a Jewish person, but I think 99% is a little high.......maybe it's like 65% that still have the bad attitude.

And Cola is not in that 65%, folks. He's said that he respects Jewish traditions and the right of Jews to be Jews, but that *he is not feeling respected as a Christian in return. This may be the heart of what he is saying, and I think it needs to be heard. He doesn't sound paranoid to me, just exasperated.

Maybe someone at this point could say something to help him feel respected as a Christian.

[ElsanRandiMom]

You know something that I think we should consider is that when Gentile Christians become Methodists or Baptists, or Catholics they have to go through a process or a conversion to that denomination. They take classes and learn about their founders and then when they are complete they are presented to the congregation.

while that's true in some cases, in alot of cases, it is not. (sadly)

[ElsanRandiMom]

There has definitely been a recurrent bad history with that--such conduct is very very wrong.

But I think your percentage may be a little high. I can appreciate your justifiable angst as a Jewish person, but I think 99% is a little high.......maybe it's like 65% that still have the bad attitude.

And Cola is not in that 65%, folks. He's said that he respects Jewish traditions and the right of Jews to be Jews, but that *he is not feeling respected as a Christian in return. This may be the heart of what he is saying, and I think it needs to be heard. He doesn't sound paranoid to me, just exasperated.

Maybe someone at this point could say something to help him feel respected as a Christian.
This is my opinion I'll say straight off...

I don't believe that the people in your 65% just target Jews... most people with that type of ideal generally go after other Christian denominations to "show them the way" as well... not to mention pagans and athiests.

It's a group that targets anyone NOT like them... not so much just Jews.

[Ivy]

This is my opinion I'll say straight off...

I don't believe that the people in your 65% just target Jews... most people with that type of ideal generally go after other Christian denominations to "show them the way" as well... not to mention pagans and athiests.

It's a group that targets anyone NOT like them... not so much just Jews.

I think it is a case that fallen human nature targets anyone not like them. Christians don't have the monopoly on this tendency, but many times there is a huge gap between the unique Christian high mark of "Love your enemies" ("and maybe they're not you're enemies, maybe you're just paranoid" ;) ) and the daily life reality. The gap is bigger because the ideal is higher.

The only way to come up to this high mark is to continually set the example of Jesus in front of us and to let his nature grow in our hearts, and to the extent we do this, we can stop focusing on others and targeting them.

:wave:

[ElsanRandiMom]

I think it is a case that fallen human nature targets anyone not like them. Christians don't have the monopoly on this tendency, but many times there is a huge gap between the unique Christian high mark of "Love your enemies" ("and maybe they're not you're enemies, maybe you're just paranoid" ;) ) and the daily life reality. The gap is bigger because the ideal is higher.

The only way to come up to this high mark is to continually set the example of Jesus in front of us and to let his nature grow in our hearts, and to the extent we do this, we can stop focusing on others and targeting them.

:wave:
true... we really need to examine how we are to share the gospels as well. No where did Christ ever preach condemnation with the Word. :( Having faith in Him requires that you allow Him to work in someone... which to me would remove the necessity to beat someone up with "truth" as it were.

[Kris10leigh]

Christians don't have the monopoly on this tendency...

:wave:

Have you guys seen the children's program in the Middle East of the bunny preaching to the youngest of children to kill Jews? It's sick! No, I wouldn't begin to say Christians are the worst at it.

We have to remember too that Christians come in all shapes, sizes and cultures. Not all Christians are this ruthless, of course not! I think this is the heart of Cola's argument. And it's not even the majority by any means. But saddly, it is out there.

Tolerance!

[ElsanRandiMom]

Have you guys seen the children's program in the Middle East of the bunny preaching to the youngest of children to kill Jews? It's sick! No, I wouldn't begin to say Christians are the worst at it.

We have to remember too that Christians come in all shapes, sizes and cultures. Not all Christians are this ruthless, of course not! I think this is the heart of Cola's argument. And it's not even the majority by any means. But saddly, it is out there.

Tolerance!
I'm ruthless ;)

[ShirChadash]

I am Ruthful :D .

[ElsanRandiMom]

I am Ruthful :D .
I like butterfinger better.

[Torah613]

An interesting thing is that you can find the noachide laws in the Brit Hadasha (New Covenant)! In Acts of the Emissaries chapter 15 we see similarities between that and the Noachide laws.

The Noachide laws teach that Gentiles need not, in some cases must not, keep Torah commands. Gentiles will have a share in the World to Come, say some rabbis, only if they keep the Noachide laws. There is a lesser kind of convert, a Ger Toshav, who is define as a Gentile who keeps the Noachide laws. The Noachide laws are said to have been taught and part of Judaism since the days of Moses (but note that the evidence for this concept did not appear until 400 C.E.). The Noachide laws include seven basic prohibitions against:
1. Idolatry
2. Blasphemy
3. Eating blood
4. Murder
5. Theft
6. Sexual promiscuity
7. Injustice (they should establish courts of justice)

In Acts 15, Yakkov (James) urged that the non-Jews in the Y'shua movement would de diligent to observe four commands:
1. Abstain from the pollutions of idols and things sacrificed to idols.
2. Abstain from sexual promiscuity.
3. Refrain from eating meat strangled (with the blood in it).
4. Refrain from ingesting blood.
Note that the list from Acts 15 essentially covers three of the seven Noachide laws. Note also that there are other rationales for the Acts 15 list. Some would find here a practical legislation designed to immediately get non-Jews separated from pagan temple institutions, including idol-meat, meat not drained of blood, and temple prostitution. Others would see Leviticus 17 and 18 behind the commands to non-Jews in Acts 15, a standard of holiness in the congregations to avoid extreme pollution.
There are other possible parallels to the Noachide laws in the New Testament. Shaul (Paul), in several lists of damnable deeds, includes things like: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers (1 Cor. 6:9-10, see also Colossians 3:5-6 and Ephesians 5:5-6). This list has some similarity to the Noachide laws, but does not exactly match either. It is hard to see that Shaul would get “the greedy” from the Noachide laws, nor “drunkards.”



You know something that I think we should consider is that when Gentile Christians become Methodists or Baptists, or Catholics they have to go through a process or a conversion to that denomination. They take classes and learn about their founders and then when they are complete they are presented to the congregation. Why not have the same thing for Messianic Judaism??? There is NOTHING legalistic about it! I myself get a bit bent out of shape when a well meaning Gentile wears the things that are were meant as a Covenant between G-d and the Jewish people... how do we fix the problem?-- Conversion!
but what conversion? unless it is done according to the Halacha (subervised by a bet din of Orthodox Rabbis) than it is not valid.

Which brings up the question of what exactly are converts to, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism? They're not exactly Jews and not exactly methodists or whatever else they used to be. An interesting concept that perhaps bears an additional thread...

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I read this and hear others espouse such stuff, but it seems the Disciples did not teach or imply anything like that. (nor does my teacher) A Little Jewish Cowboy who defies labels.
1Co11:1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Messiah.
1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
1Th 1:6 ¶ And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;
1Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
Heb 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
1Pe 3:13 and who is he who will be doing you evil, if of Him who is good ye may become imitators?

So until the Jews get around to doctoring the NT to suit their doctrines like the Christians did, I'm going to imitate Yeshua, Paul, Peter and the writer of Hebrews, doing all the things they did and said.

If it is a problem take it up with the Disciples when you see them.

Shalom

well now there's a difference here. Those people were, or according to some allegedly were, Jewish. Tefflin and Tzitzith, for example, are a special reminder to the Jewish people of our covenant with HaShem. It is insulting when goyim go through the actions of fullfilling this Mitzvah.

Now, as I've said before, I actually encourage goyim to keep Kosher and not for the health benefits. I'm a kinda selfish man sometimes, and I live in the most far flung part of hte diaspora. When non-Jews start buying Kosher foods, that means the stores carry more of a selection. Economics working in my favor. ;)

Yochanan

[visionary]

but what conversion? unless it is done according to the Halacha (subervised by a bet din of Orthodox Rabbis) than it is not valid.
Which brings up the question of what exactly are converts to, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism? They're not exactly Jews and not exactly methodists or whatever else they used to be. An interesting concept that perhaps bears an additional thread...

YochananActs 15:1:

And certain men came down from Judaea and taught the brethren, saying, "Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

Sounds like the same group.... this thinking did not work then nor does it work now... conversion is not something worked for, hand over by leaders, nor works but by faith.

[Torah613]

Hmm, well that bears the question of who is a Jew? can anyone just walk in and say "hey I'm Jewish" and have it be (assuming that person had not undergone a halachic conversion)?

Judaism is a community. Without a bet din attesting to the fact than there is no way that the community knows how to respond. From a purely strategic point of view, someone would not be recognized in rabbinic Judaism universally unless they had undergone a conversion according to Halacha. I would assume more Orthodox messianics might lean the same way.

BTW, circumcision is not really an issue. Even Reform circumcizes their converts, excepting a few rebellious rabbis and of course cases where there would be severe medical complications--in which case it would actually go against the most Orthodox interpretations of Halacha to do so. What is at issue, is the responsibility of hte Rabbis to safegaurd the faith, and more importantly the responsibility of the Rabbis to safeguard the neshama of the prospective convert. There are some Rabbis who say the penalty hangs double on those converts who do not keep the Mitzvoth.

Regarding the Bet Din, does not your own scriptures say to "bear out everything with one or two witnesses" where repentance (Teshuva if you will) is concerned?

Yochanan

[Skeeterbug]

Concerning "pagan things". I have never worshipped a false God. I have never given glory to any other than The Holy One of your ancestors.

Jesus said his Followers will neither worship at the Temple or at the Mountain (The Jews and Samaratins of His day were sticklers about "Proper worship"), but in Spirit and in Truth.

Paul later writes,




I do not judge you for your Holidays, practices and observances. Do not Judge me for mine.


not attacking you but if have ever celebrated Halloween, Christmas and Easter then you have participated in Peganism.
then you have mixed peganism with G-d

[Skeeterbug]

MY WORD THE PARANOIA!!!!! :doh:

I'm tired of being the boogie man. No matter what I say, the inevitable "GENTILES ARE OUT TO GET US" pops up. I am not out to get anyone GAH!

I have said a hundred times I and just about every Christian i know don't care about how you worship. We simply ask you to respect our decisions the way we respect yours.


You know nothing about me or my life. you refuse to believe that Christians can do wrong. you act like I know nothing about gentiles. guess what u are wrong I live in a town of 10,000 people out of the ten thousand only about 50 people are jewish. you know what I really wish that Christians would act like Christians. I was on paltalk a few nights ago and I was in a christian room and this guy got on the mike and was trying to get people to burn jews at the steak. I have seen Chrstians discuss the size of a man's equipment in Christian forums. and I have seen Christians call each other names. wiht the way some act if I was Yeshua/Jesus I would be ashamed to admit I knew them. that is another reason I refuse to be called a Christain

[Skeeterbug]

case in point -- again --



Paranoia insists that everyone is talking about you, when no one is. :)

Wowsa.

On another note... It seems to me that perhaps you simply are not, still, getting the picture that the experiences of others here are obviously very different from YOUR experiences. And on one hand, you are telling the Messianics that you don't care how they worship/what they practice, but you DO insist they must call themselves Christians in order for you to feel they are in unity with you. :sorry: You feel disrespected when the posters detail for you the reasons they neither practice what you practice nor call themselves Christians because they DON'T practice what you practice.

You say you simply ask that the Messianics respect your decisions the way you respect theirs. Uhm... you haven't at all realized that you are not respecting some folks' decision not to call themselves Christian specifically, for many varying reasons not the least of which is their differing experiences from yours. Your experiences are no MORE valid, yet in the process of hollering that the Messianics are somehow disrespecting you, you've walked all over at least that decision some of them have made (not to call themselves Christian). And in the process, you keep hollering that they are the ones who refuse to respect you, but I haven't seen them come into your denominational forum and declare that you are wrong for not following Judaism (that would be interesting :o ) or for calling yourself something other than... what... Yeshuahites or some specific thing (just throwing out a word).

Shalom... no dog in this on my part but I do see all sides pretty decently, I believe. I'm just hoping to help the dialogue become clearer...

thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he in my opinion he is disrectful to every Jewish person here. I think he refuses to believe that antisemitism exists today and that most of it in my opinion is coming out of the church. example a preacher on tv lst sunday was saying that Jews were an abonation and that the promises Hashem made to the jews now belonged to the church. i quickly changed the channel. I have had Goy tried to change me many times. and I thought he put a post on saying he was leaving.

[Lulav]

You know something that I think we should consider is that when Gentile Christians become Methodists or Baptists, or Catholics they have to go through a process or a conversion to that denomination. They take classes and learn about their founders and then when they are complete they are presented to the congregation.

while that's true in some cases, in alot of cases, it is not. (sadly) you know, you're right, never thought of that, I think in MJ there are some classes to become a member of a congregation but not of a denomination.

[Torah613]

thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he in my opinion he is disrectful to every Jewish person here. I think he refuses to believe that antisemitism exists today and that most of it in my opinion is coming out of the church. example a preacher on tv lst sunday was saying that Jews were an abonation and that the promises Hashem made to the jews now belonged to the church. i quickly changed the channel. I have had Goy tried to change me many times. and I thought he put a post on saying he was leaving.
of course its also a fact that the vast majority of gentile christians, including colabomb whom I consider to be a friend, are not in any way antisemitic. Do not forget that much of the support for the founding of isreal came from certain christian circles.

Yes there are some christians that are antisemitic. There were also some Jews who gave intel the SS and some Jews who support the PLO today.

Fact is, most christians of gentile descent I know are actually embarassingly philosemitic.

I actually understand cola to an extent in his reactions. He comes into a forum where non-english words are batted around much like they would be in any etnic enclave such as a little italy etc. This forum expouses a different cultural outlook than most other parts of CF. So already, he may be feeling like a fish out of water. Than low and behold someone sees his faith icon and starts throwing the antisemitic e-stones. Frankly its appalling and I'm embarrased that my fellow Jews would react in such a way to someone who was simply coming to people he saw with great respect and seeking to understand their differences. Of course I won't, because there is a lot of misunderstanding going on on both sides, but frankly I think all of you need to be set in a corner and a few of y'all resoundedly spanked.

Sorry, just my two cents, speaking out against the unjustly accused.

Yochanan

[Skeeterbug]

of course its also a fact that the vast majority of gentile christians, including colabomb whom I consider to be a friend, are not in any way antisemitic. Do not forget that much of the support for the founding of isreal came from certain christian circles.

Yes there are some christians that are antisemitic. There were also some Jews who gave intel the SS and some Jews who support the PLO today.

Fact is, most christians of gentile descent I know are actually embarassingly philosemitic.

I actually understand cola to an extent in his reactions. He comes into a forum where non-english words are batted around much like they would be in any etnic enclave such as a little italy etc. This forum expouses a different cultural outlook than most other parts of CF. So already, he may be feeling like a fish out of water. Than low and behold someone sees his faith icon and starts throwing the antisemitic e-stones. Frankly its appalling and I'm embarrased that my fellow Jews would react in such a way to someone who was simply coming to people he saw with great respect and seeking to understand their differences. Of course I won't, because there is a lot of misunderstanding going on on both sides, but frankly I think all of you need to be set in a corner and a few of y'all resoundedly spanked.

Sorry, just my two cents, speaking out against the unjustly accused.

Yochanan


Evertime I am in here he tells me that I am delusional. he gets mad because I refuse to go by the label Christian. when I first came in here i did get upset and told him he was antisemitic and even though I apologized for it and he still won't let it go. I have been insulted by him, been basically called a lier by him. it was not his faith icon that upset me it's his insisting that I call myself a Christian and he gets upset when I do not want to be identified something thats gentile. he has said to me basically that I am dumb. also the words we toss around and I am not going to stop using Hebrew this is a mj room. This also reminds me of this town I used to live that expected everyone to speak the language of the illegal alians instead of the native tongue the reason I called him antisemitic was he was saying things that I found upseting about antisemitism in the past if I remember right

[visionary]

Please Refrain from personal comments. Please take a deep breath and relax for a moment. Remember that even if the other does not behave in a godly manner, doesn't mean that you have to lose your godly manner too. God gave you grace, now it is your turn to give it also.

[Torah613]

Evertime I am in here he tells me that I am delusional. he gets mad because I refuse to go by the label Christian. when I first came in here i did get upset and told him he was antisemitic and even though I apologized for it and he still won't let it go. I have been insulted by him, been basically called a lier by him. it was not his faith icon that upset me it's his insisting that I call myself a Christian and he gets upset when I do not want to be identified something thats gentile. he has said to me basically that I am dumb. also the words we toss around and I am not going to stop using Hebrew this is a mj room. This also reminds me of this town I used to live that expected everyone to speak the language of the illegal alians instead of the native tongue the reason I called him antisemitic was he was saying things that I found upseting about antisemitism in the past if I remember right
Yet you have no problem using the icon that indicates Rabbinic Jews (who do not believe that jesus was HaMoshiach or divine in any way)?

If you believe any of those things, then yes you are a Christian, at least to those of us outside your community of fellow believers.

I am not excusing Cola's actions, simply saying others are being unjust and indeed cruel.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Yet you have no problem using the icon that indicates Rabbinic Jews (who do not believe that jesus was HaMoshiach or divine in any way)?
Agreed....if one is halachaly Jewish and believes Jesus is messiah,
one should, IMO, be using the scroll icon. To use a magen david
indicates to others that the poster is a believer in tradtional,
non-messiaic Judaism.

[Lulav]

i think she stated somewhere that she was looking for an icon that could distinguish her from a gentile Messianic, I could be wrong, but perhaps that isn't a bad idea? I think those how are Jewish but not Messianic get offended if a gentile with a Messianic icon answers a question directed at Jews. This may help to solve that problem, although I am not sure how favorable it would be to the new management to have more icons. But the Christians sure have many to choose from, even non denominatinal crosses, so I don't see the problem, except maybe can you change what it says yourself when you cursor over the icon?

[ChavaK]

I think those how are Jewish but not Messianic get offended if a gentile with a Messianic icon answers a question directed at Jews.
I don't think we get offended; it just seems wrong that a non-Jew
would be answering questions about Judaism.
But I would have the same problem if a Messianic Jew answered
questions directed at traditional Judaism; we hold a belief system
that is different from each other. But I think the converse is also
true, Jews should not be answering questions aimed at Gentile
Messianics, unless it is a point of clarification regarding
traditional Jewish practice.

So I guess that matter of icons will always be a problem.
However, I still feel a person should not use an icon if
their beliefs contradict the theology of the icon.
I also take issue with a person who lists their religion
as "Judaism" if they are a Messianic Jew.

Another idea.....if Jews and Gentiles are supposed to be
one in Jesus, why should there be a problem of a shared
scroll icon?

Just some thoughts....
:wave:

[Torah613]

I concur with Chava. I don't get offended, in fact it provides a few private chuckles at times.

Yochanan

[ElsanRandiMom]

I don't think we get offended; it just seems wrong that a non-Jew
would be answering questions about Judaism.
But I would have the same problem if a Messianic Jew answered
questions directed at traditional Judaism; we hold a belief system
that is different from each other. But I think the converse is also
true, Jews should not be answering questions aimed at Gentile
Messianics, unless it is a point of clarification regarding
traditional Jewish practice.

So I guess that matter of icons will always be a problem.
However, I still feel a person should not use an icon if
their beliefs contradict the theology of the icon.
I also take issue with a person who lists their religion
as "Judaism" if they are a Messianic Jew.

Another idea.....if Jews and Gentiles are supposed to be
one in Jesus, why should there be a problem of a shared
scroll icon?

Just some thoughts....
:wave:
the only fault I can see with your logic is that some Messianic Jews might consider that their beliefs do not contradict or stray from Judaism... (not wanting to argue whether it does or not) I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Jewish people may have one idea of what Judiasm is limited by, others might not... KWIM? It kinda falls back to a matter of interpretation/opinion.

[Lulav]

I know some aren't going to like this here but take a read anyway, it is written by Rabbi Loren Jacobs, if you want to know more about him, you can read here, (http://www.shema.com/about_rabbis.php)

His wife, I think said she was a 5th or 6th generation Messianic Jew.


What is Messianic Judaism? (http://therefinersfire.org/rabbi_jacobs.htm)

What is the difference between Messianic Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism? How can you say that Messianic Judaism is more faithful to the Jewish Bible than Rabbinic Judaism?
Rabbinic Judaism, whether it is Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform, is centered around the teachings of the rabbis. After the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 A.D. the rabbis reorganized Judaism and added many new laws, rules, customs and traditions to the Bible. Their writings, like the Talmud, form the foundation of Rabbinic Judaism. Of all the various Judaisms that existed in the first century, Messianic Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism are the only ones that remain. We claim that Messianic Judaism is more faithful to the Jewish Bible than Rabbinic Judaism.

[ElsanRandiMom]

I know some aren't going to like this here but take a read anyway, it is written by Rabbi Loren Jacobs, if you want to know more about him, you can read here, (http://www.shema.com/about_rabbis.php)

His wife, I think said she was a 5th or 6th generation Messianic Jew.


What is Messianic Judaism? (http://therefinersfire.org/rabbi_jacobs.htm)
ouch... wow

[Talmidah]

I disagree with that assessment, but not suprised in the least. Regardless, a poster using the star of david icon in this forum is projecting to everyone that they are part of Rabbinic Judaism as is recognized today. It is quite disingenuous to do so when one is, in reality, a Messianic and should thus use either the scroll or menorah icon.

[ElsanRandiMom]

I disagree with that assessment, but not suprised in the least. Regardless, a poster using the star of david icon in this forum is projecting to everyone that they are part of Rabbinic Judaism as is recognized today. It is quite disingenuous to do so when one is, in reality, a Messianic and should thus use either the scroll or menorah icon.
does the forum have a listing of what specifically is meant by each icon? (I'm not very forum savvy)

[ChavaK]

the only fault I can see with your logic is that some Messianic Jews might consider that their beliefs do not contradict or stray from Judaism... (not wanting to argue whether it does or not) I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Jewish people may have one idea of what Judiasm is limited by, others might not... KWIM? It kinda falls back to a matter of interpretation/opinion.

I understand what you are saying and we definitely don't want to
get into a discussion on that matter :)
But if all of the movements in Judaism have the same opinion on
an issue, I think it's fair to say that straying outside those limits
puts one outside the faith. Just as it would with any other religion...

[ChavaK]

I know some aren't going to like this here but take a read anyway, it is written by Rabbi Loren Jacobs, if you want to know more about him, you can read here, (http://www.shema.com/about_rabbis.php)

His wife, I think said she was a 5th or 6th generation Messianic Jew.


What is Messianic Judaism? (http://therefinersfire.org/rabbi_jacobs.htm)


Oh boy, I see contradicitons with that statement....but I will not
digress into that territory :)

[ElsanRandiMom]

I understand what you are saying and we definitely don't want to
get into a discussion on that matter :)
But if all of the movements in Judaism have the same opinion on
an issue, I think it's fair to say that straying outside those limits
puts one outside the faith. Just as it would with any other religion...
all but one sect might (wink wink)



***stupid CF issues won't let me get to advanced to put in the wink wink smiley

[ShirChadash]

But if all of the movements in Judaism have the same opinion on
an issue, I think it's fair to say that straying outside those limits
puts one outside the faith. Just as it would with any other religion...
I must agree with Chava... I have always said, and always will say, it is those who are within a religion -- whichever it is -- and not those from without, who have the right to determine and declare who is or isn't a "______________" (whichever). Such is the only way for any group to be cohesive and hold standard beliefs they can be sure all members of their religion do indeed hold, in claiming to be "one of them".

[ChavaK]

all but one sect might (wink wink)



***stupid CF issues won't let me get to advanced to put in the wink wink smiley


except that one sect;);) (now it's working) isn't accepted
anywhere...

I am having all kinds of issues with CF too....hopefully they
get them fixed soon!

[Lulav]

ouch... wow Why ouch to you ERM?:scratch:

I disagree with that assessment, but not suprised in the least. Regardless, a poster using the star of david icon in this forum is projecting to everyone that they are part of Rabbinic Judaism as is recognized today. It is quite disingenuous to do so when one is, in reality, a Messianic and should thus use either the scroll or menorah icon. I understand your reaction, but I was just saying that this may be why she uses it. I didn't realize myself that the magen david was only for Rabbinic Jews at CF , strange as I have seen some Jews use it that also state that they are agnostic or atheist even, but they are still Jews.

I understand what you are saying and we definitely don't want to
get into a discussion on that matter
But if all of the movements in Judaism have the same opinion on
an issue, I think it's fair to say that straying outside those limits
puts one outside the faith. Just as it would with any other religion... you say all, but you are leaving out one, it's your exclusion of us that is the problem. But you will accept reform Jews that break the Torah over those who keep it but believe in Moschiach? :confused:

Oh boy, I see contradicitons with that statement....but I will not
digress into that territory :)why not? This is the debate forum and you have every right to say what you think. :)

I must agree with Chava... I have always said, and always will say, it is those who are within a religion -- whichever it is -- and not those from without, who have the right to determine and declare who is or isn't a "______________" (whichever). Such is the only way for any group to be cohesive and hold standard beliefs they can be sure all members of their religion do indeed hold, in claiming to be "one of them". so you see the icon as a religious symbol and not one for Jews only? because like I said, I have seen others here that have the star yet are not practicing religious Jews in any shape or form.

So it comes down to this, you can be accepted as a Jew if you deny HaShem exists, but if you believe he revealed himself to us in the form of Messiah Yeshua, then you aren't a Jew any more.

There's gotta be some logic there, I just can't see it. :sigh:

[Talmidah]

I understand your reaction, but I was just saying that this may be why she uses it. I didn't realize myself that the magen david was only for Rabbinic Jews at CF , strange as I have seen some Jews use it that also state that they are agnostic or atheist even, but they are still Jews. I'm not sure who those are, but if they are halachic Jews who are not practicing another religion, then the magen david icon would be appropriate, although the little head icon would be more fitting. If they are halachic Jews that are practicing another religion, they should use the icon of that religion.

you say all, but you are leaving out one, it's your exclusion of us that is the problem. But you will accept reform Jews that break the Torah over those who keep it but believe in Moschiach? :confused: We really are not leaving out one, Lulav. Of course we have major disagreements with the reform movement, but we remain united on this issue. And you know that it has goes way beyond a case of mistaken moshiach identity. Yshua is not simply viewed as a possible candidate as messiah. The fact that a man is seen as any way equal to God or part of God or essence of God....that violation of Torah is much more fundamental than that of the Reform who will hopefully realize their errors and grow in observance. I see it happening all the time, more and more who were raised Reform realizing that they need to return home to true halachic Judaism. Your question though brings to mind something I've read about here at CF. Why the J Witnesses & LDS don't have forums here in the Christians Only section. I've seen threads where they both insist that they are part of Christianity and posters with Christian icons insist that these groups are definitely not part Christianity. I have no i